Hive Cup 2023: Melee Mapping Contest #9 - Results

Nightmare2077 · Sep 18, 2023

At least top 3 submissions will be featured in the qualifier rounds and the final cup, as with last year.

The tournament will be played on Legacy/Classic/SD graphics.

Thanks to SergeyRevive for being the sponsor of this tournament. We shall announce the details once the organisational essentials are settled.

1st place: 750 experience points
2nd place: 600 experience points
3rd place: 450 experience points
4th place: 300 experience points
5th place: 150 experience points
Judge: 25 experience points per entry

The three winners are guaranteed to be featured in the Hive Cup #4 and will receive an award icon representing the winning entry.

Layout	Do creeps have proper aggro? Are neutral buildings and expansions placed properly? Is there adequate spacing?	/35
Creeps	Is the creeping fair for all races? How is the creeping flow? Are the item drops balanced?	/35
Terrain	Is the map visually pleasing in terms of terrain, doodad placement, and overall theme? Is the map repetitive? Is the aesthetic well designed but not overly obstructive?	/10
Creativity & Uniqueness	Does the map bring something new or creative to the table?	/20
Technical	Bugs and other technical issues will negatively impact the score of a map.	/-
Total		/100

Results calculation: 20% public poll + 80% judges score

Map	Public votes	Public votes weighted	Wanderbraun	Neytpoh	Final
Warren's Way, by Zucth	3	12.33	75	59	56.06609
Circle Island, by AGKRegal102	2	8.22	19	33	22.44406
Corin's Crossing, by Gorin	8	32.88	86	68	68.17624
Witch Ruins, by nees	6	24.66	65	63	56.13218
Drake Nostrum, by btp\|Lancer	1	4.11	75	98	70.02203
Redcliff Lake, by WolfFarkas	2	8.22	72	63	55.64406
Dragonblight, by Adney	7	28.77	87	73	69.75421
The Elysium, by Yagelon	1	4.11	69	88	63.62203
Hallowed Isles, by Remixer	3	12.33	81	78	66.06609
Neighborhood, by AlwaysAndForever	0	0.00	4	34	15.2
Shimmering Woods, by BLazeKraze	5	20.55	89	63	64.91015
Melting Pot, by Knecht	7	28.77	85	70	67.75421
Gloom Stalker, by SayuriTenshi	3	12.33	93	73	68.86609
Swamp of Sorrows, by Blood Raven	11	45.21	54	57	53.44233
Murloc Beach, by YesItsImba	3	12.33	66	68	56.06609
Withering Fields, by Arrr and SaveOrcas	5	20.55	72	73	62.11015
Graveblight, by Darkfang	6	24.66	40	68	48.13218

Note: colored fills are just for ease of visualisation and serve no additional purpose.
Public votes weighted = a hundred times the mapes votes divided by total votes submitted divided by the number of votes allowed per person

1. Circle Island
I. Expansions are super far away from bases and creeps there are really tuff. So no fast expo is possible which is bad, leads to only pushes in some match ups, for example humans are forced to play Rifle pushes. No Labs is also bad.
10/35

II. So few creeps on the map and as we know from previous point for 1 base play when all creeps are gone heroes will be like 3-2 levels. First creeps are far away from each other, long distances, seems like this map is only for brawls right from the start.
10/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Map looks like micro challenge map, no fast expos not enough creeps, just straight dog fight : ) very limited.
5/20

2. Corin's Crossing
I. Overall looks okay but Labs are so far away from bases, kinda weird, will take lots of time to get shredder home.
Also its the first map i see where you can place elf tree right to the creeps at expo, which should not be the case, too easy to creep FE as NE. Just place AOW or main tree right close to creep and do the spot. Huge help for NE vs any race.
20/35

II. First couple of creep camps are so small located far away from each other, if u dont have initial boost like AOW or militia its gonna be super hard to creep properly and since map is very big its hard to harras either which gonna lead to big advantage right from the start for HU and NE. Overall lots of camps. Its good ; )
20/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Map has 2 types of fountains which is interesting to see, you can find a way to use it to ur favour with any race basically, add some variability and i'd definitely watch and play this map to test it.
20/20

3. Drake Nostrum
I. Nice Layout, there are tons of expansions. map is HUGE and there is a marketplace, 2 fountains and you can even buy a boat ; ) Personally i love big maps, there are tons of opportunities there, i already see great macro games here.
35/35

II. Non standart creep, and A LOT OF creeps which is good for long macro games. Aggro is appropriate.
35/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Its definitely not standart to make such a huge map for 1v1 and its definitely creative to make 5 expos for each player, market and fountains.
20/20

4. Gloom Stalker
I. At the first glance we see a nice interesting idea to make expos with no creeps but then we meet aggro problem, you cant make any expos on these spots without aggroing the creeps, dunno if its made this way or its a mistake. But looks like a mistake. Shops in the middle, lab is close, so its only about aggro. Everything else is fine. Also many expos which i like.
25/35

II. Many hard creeps, but locations of some of them are not comfortable, i think golems in the corners will be crept like 1/10 games tops. Big camps for expos (except the middle free), and uncomfortable creeps at merc camp, so u cant creep it early and its far away from all other small camps.
20/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Having expos without creeps leads to interesting strategies, if u fix aggro for all another creep free expos it will be very cool to see some expo before hero strategies or going straight harras from the start and expo behind on free goldmine.
20/20

5. GraveBlight
I. Huge map with 2 very defended expos and no Lab. Dont like it from the start. The impact of mercs are decreasing on big maps so if merc camps would be changed to labs it would be much better for playing.
Shop locations are weird. Every time you need a TP or scroll you have to waste like 15-20 sec to just go there.
15/35

II. Lots of creeps, small ones and then big ones. Since creeps at expos are super tuff probably we will see many fights for the middle. Will be interesting to watch. Overall creeps are good.
30/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Nice undead creeps all over the map and shops/markets without creeps at all is smth i've never seen, dunno if its good or not but definitetly unique ;- )
15/20

6. Hallowed Isles
I. Big map, many expos and creeps, lab is nearby. Everything looks okay but nothing outstanding.
30/35

II. Looks good and balanced.
30/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Nothing really unique or creative, just normal solid map.
10/20

7. Melting Pot
I. Big map, expos are too far away and creep these too tuff.
20/35

II. Many creeps and big creeps in the corners, looks fine.
30/35

III. Terrain is very interesting, looks like the world after a massive earthshake ; ) Lava everywhere
10/10

IV. Unique terrain, very interesting. Everything else is kinda standart
10/20

8. Neighborhood
I. Haha super funny map. Its the one you make when u first time open wc3 redactor. Only big camps, no paths just open fields. Impossible to play for humans and orcs since u cant close ur base etc. More like FFA map ; )
3/35

II. Its nice to have big creeps, but its also nice to have small ones to level up from the start. Here there are none small creeps so you have to wait or harras from starts. With such a camps you cant make an expo till you have huge army, so you have to play 1v1 without creeping at all or wait a big army sitting at 1 base cuz u cant creep

3/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Its definitely Creative and Unique, i would maybe play this map for luls.
20/20

9. Redcliff Lake
I. Everything seems normal, not perfect but fine, nothing to say much.
25/35

II. Creeps are fine too, on lab creeps a bit stronger than supposed to be but okay. Not too many creeps tho.
25/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Nothing really creative.
5/20

10. Shimmering woods
I. Everything seems normal, only creeps at closest expo has bad aggro you can make aow / main tree right to the creeps.
25/35

II. Creeps are fine too, on lab creeps a bit stronger than supposed to be but okay. Not too many creeps tho.
25/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Nothing really creative.
5/20

11. Swamp of sorrow
I. You cant make an AOW close to creeps, no expo no nothing, its disaster for NE. Odd number of expos is good to fight for it.
15/35

II. Lots of creeps, its good.
25/35

III. Terrain is sux

3/10

IV. Creative

14/20

12. The Elysium
I. Very interesting map, i dont understand the fountain idea, its just for fun? Are these heroes attack or just a statues?

If they fight its a huge camp on fountain will take lots of time to get there in the boats and creep, you will lose tempo and can get attacked same time. But if its just a decoration its fine too.
The idea to harras expos using boats is great. You can use ground but its so far away. Love it.
30/35

II. Creep camps are fine. Lots of it and good balaned.
30/35

III. Terrain is fine
8/10

IV. Creative, very interesting to test it.
20/20

13. Warren's Way
I. Everything looks normal.
25/35

II. Creeps are fine, looks good.
25/35

III. Terrain is harder for eyes than normal ones.
4/10

IV. Nothing unique
5/20

14. EK3 aka Murloc Beach
I. Everything looks normal. Big map, many ways to bases for harrasing etc.
Hard to prevent hu expo since creeps are super easy and its super far away to come harrasing.
Everything else is fine.
25/35

II. Only first expo creeps are too weak but every other camps are okay.
25/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Fountains are good idea, but dont know who is getting advantage of it.
10/20

15. Witch Ruins
I. 4 player map, so its many weak goldmines. Leads to macro games which is always good. Hard to scout if spots are totally random. If there is a patternt like bot top always its fine.
25/35

II. Creeps are interesting, many of it and everything looks fine.
25/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Nothing really unique.
5/20

16. Withering Fields
I. Nice 4 player big map. Goldmines are not that easy. Love the markets. Everything located very nice.
30/35

II. So many strong creeps, heroes will be high its cool.
25/35

III. Terrain is fine.
8/10

IV. Nothing to say.
10/20

17. Dragonblight
I, Everything looks fine, fountain without a guard help at early creeping stage for sure.
25/35

II. So many dragons, which may force people to play rifles / mass archers / fast gargs / mass HH. Which is okay, interesting to see how it plays out with different races.
25/35

III. Terrain is fine
8/10

IV: So many dragons is definitely something interesting, will be fun to try it.
15/20

Circle Island

I. Layout
Expand is too far from the base, quite hard or even impossible to play FE as Human. No mercs or market, just small map without anything, like Arena for 10 min games
10\35

II. Creeps
Creeps on the gold mine are too strong, no red camps, just too few creeps to kill at all
5\35

III. Terrain
I just don’t like this biom, nothing personal

5\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
This map is just a small arena without anything for short 8-10 min games. Even Amazonia as Arena-type map is much more creative
1\20

Drake Nostrum

I. Layout
I love shipyard and water everywhere! Map maybe is too big, the amount of mines make it feels like a sc2 macro map. But it is okay to have maps like this in some amounts. Gold expands maybe are too far from the main base - workers don’t have much militia time left after they come. But creeps are not that strong, so its fine.
Overall map design is nice, but i think it is just TOO big. Fountains of health can be dropped i suppose. But water everywhere and ships are cool

25\35

II. Creeps
Creeps are okay
25\35

III. Terrain
There are so many creeps from all biomes, maybe there would be a good idea to make trees from everywhere, like 50\50 i dunno
Overall it is fine, a lot of objects, sometimes are even too many, feels messy in some places
15\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Water types of map with ships are unique and not common. But map is just way too big
17\20

Hallowed Isles

I. Layout
This is macro map with interesting position of expands, but there is no “neutral” gold mine in the middle, so there is a big chance of AFK-mining in macro games, as it was on old Echo Isles. Just thoughts
I don’t like that Mercs are far from players, it should be placed where laboratory is standing.
Overall i love narrow corridors - it will make unique fights, like Concealed Hill, which is not bad
28\35

II. Creeps
i love that high level creeps block the corridors, that is unique
30\35

III. Terrain
Looks cool
15\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Nice map overall, narrow corridors and high level creeps who block corridors are cool
15\20

Melting Pot

I. Layout
Nice compact macro map
I love the layout of main base, i mean that you can go from behind
3d expand is on the hill and in the same time is quite near to the enemy - nice
30\35

II. Creeps
Unique creeps are cool (fire summon of FL)
30\35

III. Terrain
Absolutely badass, lava is cool af
20\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Fire summons as creeps are cool, i love how main and 3d expand are placed, 2d expand is okay
15\20

Redcliff lake

I. Layout
I love the road to 3d expand through forest, can make unique situations. Would be much cooler if it would be on the 2d expand.
30\35

II. Creeps
Queen of pain creep is uncommon, cool
Don’t like the idea that goblin lab is red camp, but it is not “bad”, just don’t like it
20\35

III. Terrain
Orc barack as prop is funny idea, nice. I love that there are not much grass, strong Kalimdor vibe
18\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Map is okay, i loved the forest near 3d base, red camp on lab is strange and imho even cringe, but it can be okay
13\20

Shimmering Woods

I. Layout
The idea of long corridor is funny
Love not standart mecrs, but they are so far that players will creep them in late game and never hire actually in most of the time, maybe ogre mage sometimes
If i got it right, there are random creeps all the time?
25\35

II. Creeps
Random creeps on some spot is astonishing idea
Love unique creeps like rogue king
35\35

III. Terrain
Love orange-green trees combination ngl
17\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
If there is random creeps on mercs as world editor says it is 10\10
Long corridors on top and bottom are nice
20\20 (13\20 is no random creeps)

Swamp of Sorrows

I. Layout
Do not like the expand, it is hard to make fe as human - lizards have purge, no medium armor, a lot of damage = rip vs undead, cauze it is hard to play 1 base vs them + map is too big for 1 base playstile i think
Fountain is too far to be used even once during the game
15\35

II. Creeps
Creeps are too strong in many places
15\35

III. Terrain
Looks interesting, temple is cool
18\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
The idea of Shrine is cool, but map is quite common
15\20

Warrens Way

I. Layout
I love that it is both a micro and macro map at the same time, small but a lot of mines. And first expand is easy to creep and defend
Shop which can be used and creep from 2 places is cool
I would love to see mercs somewhere though
25\35

II. Creeps
Infernal as creep with unique items is interesting, many barrens creeps who i love
25\35

III. Terrain
Just love Kalimdor + Outland combination
20\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
I just love this map, it is like Amazonia but potentially more interesting
15\20

Witch Ruins

I. Layout
Feels classic in every way. 2 Taverns, each closer to every player\team would be great. Non standart mercs are cool
25\35

II. Creeps
Creator just love succubus huh. Well everything is fine and a lot of non common creeps
25\35

III. Terrain
13\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Feels common in every way, only creeps and mercs save the situation
8\20

Withering Fields

I. Layout
Funny idea to make all 3 mines near, increase the chances of full macro games and encourages defensive playstyle. But for a macro game there must be some mercs i think. I also think that labs and shops should be swapped in places
20\35

II. Creeps
Kel’thuzad as creeps is best thing ever. Mamy unique creeps also, nice
30\35

III. Terrain
Love autumn
15\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
3 base near are interesting
14\20

Corins Crosing

I. Layout
Absolutely unique, both fountains of mana and health, “island” with gold mine - so many cool things, which we don’t see often
35 \35

II. Creeps
No unique creeps, everything is common but boring

25\35

III. Terrain
Don’t love the biom, just too common, but little details on many spots are cool
12\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
20\20

Dragonblight

I. Layout
I love that every player have a fountain near their base - combined with mass air creeps idea it makes map unique
30\35

II. Creeps
The idea of mass air creeps is unique, I love it.
30\35

III. Terrain
So many bioms, but looks fine
14\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Mass air idea + fountains are interesting and unique
20\20

Gloom Stalker

I. Layout
9 mines on a comparable small map waaaaat. May be interesting, including pocket lab for every play. Also i love that the are mercs around expands + tavern.
35\35

II. Creeps
The positions of creeps are interesting, like there is no one near mines but actually are. Infernal as creep is cool.
30\35

III. Terrain
16\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
20\20

Graveblight

I. Layout
The idea of shop, market and tavern places together without any defence is just too strange. It makes the map too empty, there are just creeps and creeps and free space
No gold mine for fast expand
5\35

II. Creeps
Too many creeps which just stay and defend nothing. Too strong creeps on expand.
10\35

III. Terrain
Looks great, the mine as the undead which you should destroy is interesting
20\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
The ideas are actually good, but overall map is terrible. The author should remake it from the beginning, using the fundamental ideas which he used here
15\20

Murloc Beach

I. Layout
Fountains are cool, unique mercs are cool
25\35

II. Creeps
I think creeps on mercs should be less stronger
30\35

III. Terrain
Just okay
5\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
Map feels classic in almost every way, but it is fine.
8\20

Neighborhood
Just no

Elysium

I. Layout
shipyards are always interesting. I would love to see the map with shipyard but without labs to encourage ship usage.
I understand the idea of fountain with neutral heroes like Space, HoT and others, but gameplay wise it is almost useless to go there. If there would be some gold mine it would be better
20\35

II. Creeps
Creeps near fountain are so unique, cool. Satyrs and naga are interesting too
25\35

III. Terrain
NE fans would be glad to play here
12\20

IV. Creativity & Uniqueness
It has potential. Narrow land way between the players to encourage ship usage is cool idea, but is some way map is not cooked right
18\20

Nightmare2077's NOTE: Wanderbraun's terrain scores were later halvened rounding upwards due to him giving them out of 20 instead of out of 10.

The final results therefore are:

Nightmare2077 · Sep 18, 2023

Big thanks to all entrants, so many great maps as always.

Sergey and I are pondering the best way to proceed forwards.

There is also a preliminary agreement with w3champions team for one or two best entries to be featured in their ladder, but according to my understanding these will not be selected until after the tournament's end.

Stay tuned and thanks again to everyone involved

SayuriTenshi · Sep 19, 2023

Just want to point out to neypth that gloom stalkers expos are no mistake at all and they are just normaly guardes like any other expos on competetive maps and it works cuz of the lvl 7 creep. They are only at the sides so u dont run into them or need to playes them behind goldmine in these corridor expos. Bit dissapoined with this assuption .....

Gorin · Sep 19, 2023

4th place, not bad with first melee :wink:

didn't know lot of stuff like NE being too strong there or goblin lab being far is a thing, so at least I learned. Just the Terrain rating thing seems bit odd to me-- not liking certain bioms or lot of entries getting exact same rating despite having very different tilesets / overral look? I guess its kinda subjective. Also congrats to top 3 winners :wink:

btp|Lancer · Sep 19, 2023

I'm looking forward to see these maps in the tournament with profesional players. We would probably see lot of feedback. Hope w3c crew like it.

p.s: I got a 15th rank out of 18 in the last contest lol. Hive Cup 2021: Melee Mapping Contest #8 - First Phase Results

Knecht · Sep 19, 2023

Gratz to all, thanks for the contest which became a tradition at this point.
It made me open the editor and make a map from scratch after quite some time (didn't think I'd still have it in me to make one).
It's always great seeing new faces in the leading positions, shows that wc3 is still doing well and has a living community.

SayuriTenshi · Sep 20, 2023

i made a 1h review form the perspektive if i see the maps to be fit for ladder/w3c
Im Made AL, ES, Sv2.0 PW, DG, KD, also made a 3h judge video for contest #6 and had my hands in many decisions about competetive w3c maps

Disclaimer: (pls dont get offended when i talk bad about your map its just for fun dont take it to serious) Also this rant is about ladder competetive maps only so if its bad for ladder it does not mean its a bad map for a nice customgame with friends

end even though i rant a bit, i think there is also a bit to learn about clean map design

Zucth · Sep 20, 2023

I'm a bit disappoint, I got 12th placed for making a normal competitive map? But what can I complain about... Well, congrats to all the top 3 winner! Thank everyone for participate this hive mapping tradition and again, thank Nightmare who create this wonderful event.

Remixer · Sep 20, 2023

SayuriTenshi said:
i made a 1h review form the perspektive if i see the maps to be fit for ladder/w3c

Thank you for the time reviewing all the contest maps! I appreciate the effort and the feedback. I agree with practically everything and will finetune my map accordingly in areas where able to.

Your feedback (overall on all the maps) largely focuses on macro issues that somehow have seemed to pass through the radar of both most of the map makers as well as the judges and this can be somewhat seen in the reactions of participants. Whenever you cursed on the reviews I completely understood the reaction.

Zucth said:
I'm a bit disappoint, I got 12th placed for making a normal competitive map?

This is something (a point of interest in general) that I pointed out during the contest already - what kind of maps were we expected to make? The headline says competitive and the description says to focus on balance and competitiveness over other factors. Still, the news about the contest had very strong wordings such as "unique" in them, encouraging map makers to make unique maps, which can be often confused with just weird - or not normal. I'd argue this also applies to the judges' scores.

From my perspective a lot of the maps are unique, but well... not in a good way most of the time. Uniqueness itself is not something to value unless it brings additional value - perhaps the areas scored were not clear enough? Creativity and Uniqueness grant twice the points than "Visually Pleasing Terrain" - this to me sounds absurd, but it's not me who came up with the scoring. I am also confused by the differentiation into Layout and Terrain, since looking at the maps I can hardly get to the same conclusions as the judges (for the other judge 14 of the 17 maps have exactly equally visually pleasing terrain).

Ultimately I still want to thank all the participants, judges, and organizers since this kind of contest brings in interest to create more and help keep our universe alive. Keep in mind that giving and getting criticism and feedback needs to have its place too. When the three winners (perhaps more maps) are put into Hive Cup #4 we will probably get more feedback.

nees · Sep 20, 2023

gg wp

I prepared myself to stoically accept the assessments as they would be, but I simply cannot leave THIS without comment)
Reading the judges' comments was both funny and sad at the same time.
I hope next time the organizers will use a random number generator instead of “judges”, so the assessments will be more fair.

If we analyze the judging based on the facts, then:
Judges have a separate article for assessing uniqueness of 20 points and an article for assessing the visual component of 10 points. The remaining 70 points should evaluate the gameplay of the map. However, instead, the “judges” evaluate each article through the lens of uniqueness and subjective visual impression. This is a common situation when you ask for an expert opinion from a person who, instead of playing the game himself, only watches other people’s games.

As an example, here is the most obvious judging mistake: the judges did not evaluate the item drops balance. They ignored the fact that some maps drop fixed items rather than random ones. They did not comment on the fact that on some maps the items were simply not comparable to the strength of the camp. Although the Contest Judging clearly states that the item drops balance must be checked.
And why go far? The judges didn’t even find fault with the fact that my map had an imbalance in terms of access to the Goblin Laboratory (I shouldn’t have been so worried about that).
The moderator, who simply checked my map before confirming it, spent much more time on my map than the judges at the сontest. lol

All this is very sad, comrades...

SayuriTenshi · Sep 20, 2023

nees said:
gg wp

I prepared myself to stoically accept the assessments as they would be, but I simply cannot leave THIS without comment)
Reading the judges' comments was both funny and sad at the same time.
I hope next time the organizers will use a random number generator instead of “judges”, so the assessments will be more fair.

If we analyze the judging based on the facts, then:
Judges have a separate article for assessing uniqueness of 20 points and an article for assessing the visual component of 10 points. The remaining 70 points should evaluate the gameplay of the map. However, instead, the “judges” evaluate each article through the lens of uniqueness and subjective visual impression. This is a common situation when you ask for an expert opinion from a person who, instead of playing the game himself, only watches other people’s games.

Here is the most obvious judging mistake: the judges did not evaluate the item drops balance. They ignored the fact that some maps drop fixed items rather than random ones. They did not comment on the fact that on some maps the items were simply not comparable to the strength of the camp.
And why go far? The judges didn’t even find fault with the fact that my map had an imbalance in terms of access to the Goblin Laboratory (I shouldn’t have been so worried about that).
The moderator, who simply checked my map before confirming it, spent much more time on my map than the judges at the сontest. lol

All this is very sad, comrades...

I agree with you alot here it rly feels like random numbers. Even pro players are not known for good objective feedback. Somthing like no easy lab -10points is rly not objective in my eyes when had maps like that in the ladder for over 15 years

I also mostly didnt go over the items but i was no judge. In contest #6 i did. However i think the layout is whats the absolute most important stuff. If u check my review maps under 60 i would remake them first before concerning myself with drops wich can be changed much more easy

btp|Lancer · Sep 28, 2023

SayuriTenshi said:
i made a 1h review form the perspektive if i see the maps to be fit for ladder/w3c
Im Made AL, ES, Sv2.0 PW, DG, KD, also made a 3h judge video for contest #6 and had my hands in many decisions about competetive w3c maps

Disclaimer: (pls dont get offended when i talk bad about your map its just for fun dont take it to serious) Also this rant is about ladder competetive maps only so if its bad for ladder it does not mean its a bad map for a nice customgame with friends

end even though i rant a bit, i think there is also a bit to learn about clean map design

I've got my volume up til 100% and still can't listen what you said in the video. Could you sum up your review on my map, please? Need the feedback

Remixer · Sep 28, 2023

btp|Lancer said:
I've got my volume up til 100% and still can't listen what you said in the video. Could you sum up your review on my map, please? Need the feedback

I can try to summarize the feedback on Drake Nostrum:
The map is massive (124x124) with starting locations across the map, making it even larger. The tree lines are not clean (they have a lot of diagonal reachable trees allowing wisps to harvest while being out of reach). Visually it looks like everything was done with a square brush, making it look not nice. Basing places on direct high ground is also a bad thing. There are spots on the map with very narrow pathways, for example, the green creeps next to the bases. Various creep camps are also placed so that running past them (or trying to reach something else) will cause you to accidentally get aggro from them - this is not desired in competitive melee. The map has too many expansions. Also some creeps that have been used should not be used, like ghosts that have Possession. The terrain is also not good (blocky from the square brush). Scoring 52/100.

SayuriTenshi · Sep 28, 2023

btp|Lancer said:
I've got my volume up til 100% and still can't listen what you said in the video. Could you sum up your review on my map, please? Need the feedback

sorry i just winged it very fast and its not 100% serrious, still the maps are pretty much in the order i would rate them and maps at +75 should probably have bit more points and the ones under that i see in a still lot to do place. (ofc gloom stalker 100p is a joke haha )

Remixxer summarized it pretty well.

Remixer · Sep 29, 2023

SayuriTenshi said:
sorry i just winged it very fast and its not 100% serrious, still the maps are pretty much in the order i would rate them and maps at +75 should probably have bit more points and the ones under that i see in a still lot to do place. (ofc gloom stalker 100p is a joke haha )

Remixxer summarized it pretty well.

I think watching the video it is pretty clear the final scores are not exactly accurate (there are times where you are unsure whether to give a map 50, 52, 55 or something else) so it is clear. But still, the numeric score is the least useful thing. So it should be from judges.

Written or verbal feedback that points out individual things is most important. Heck, I don't even give a score in my reviews, it's useless. I can tell if something is lacking, okay, good, really good or maybe even extra ordinary, but numeric value no.

And ultimately I think your scoring, even if the numeric values would change, the order of the maps in your listing would not, so the results would be the same.

Regarding the judging or prejudging of the map pool, I would say it's not the contestants' place to call it. Organizers and moderators should be able to whistle when it's needed. If WC3Champions thinks the map are not justly judged, I would imagine they will express that opinion and suggest a course of action. Or perhaps the initiative could even come from the side of Hive.

btp|Lancer · Sep 29, 2023

Remixer said:
I can try to summarize the feedback on Drake Nostrum:
The map is massive (124x124) with starting locations across the map, making it even larger. The tree lines are not clean (they have a lot of diagonal reachable trees allowing wisps to harvest while being out of reach). Visually it looks like everything was done with a square brush, making it look not nice. Basing places on direct high ground is also a bad thing. There are spots on the map with very narrow pathways, for example, the green creeps next to the bases. Various creep camps are also placed so that running past them (or trying to reach something else) will cause you to accidentally get aggro from them - this is not desired in competitive melee. The map has too many expansions. Also some creeps that have been used should not be used, like ghosts that have Possession. The terrain is also not good (blocky from the square brush). Scoring 52/100.

Don't you remember big maps like Twisted Meadows, Gnoll Wood or Lost Temple in the mappool for ages?. These include lot of gold mines (Turtle Rock too). Having unbuildeable places is pure design (unique?). I don't know why this is bad. What about boats in low level water? Does my map have nothing positive? really? I got 50 points from Tenshi. Why not 0?
The rest is true, I will try to fix it. Thanks!

Map contest indicates:
"Aspiring map designers will have the opportunity to create their own melee maps, focusing on strategic gameplay elements, balanced terrain design, and immersive environments. With the freedom to explore their creativity, contestants can develop captivating landscapes, intricate pathways, and innovative strategies that challenge players' abilities."
Nothing about competitive.

I would also love to hear Neytpoh opinion about your words

Remixer · Sep 29, 2023

btp|Lancer said:
Don't you remember big maps like Twisted Meadows, Gnoll Wood or Lost Temple in the mappool for ages?. These include lot of gold mines (Turtle Rock too). Having unbuildeable places is pure design (unique?). I don't know why this is bad. What about boats in low level water? Does my map have nothing positive? really? I got 50 points from Tenshi. Why not 0?
The rest is true, I will try to fix it. Thanks!

Map contest indicates:
"Aspiring map designers will have the opportunity to create their own melee maps, focusing on strategic gameplay elements, balanced terrain design, and immersive environments. With the freedom to explore their creativity, contestants can develop captivating landscapes, intricate pathways, and innovative strategies that challenge players' abilities."
Nothing about competitive.

I would also love to hear Neytpoh opinion about your words

Please bear in mind that I did not say those things, I was doing my best to summarize what @SayuriTenshi said in his video, so please direct your words at him, not me.

Regarding the contest post indication, this is something I brought up during the contest solely due to the fact that I found it confusing why the contest news did not mention the word competitive, but used words like unique and innovative. Then again, in the contest thread itself, those words were not as apparent, and instead, it read competitive.

btp|Lancer · Sep 29, 2023

Remixer said:
Please bear in mind that I did not say those things, I was doing my best to summarize what @SayuriTenshi said in his video, so please direct your words at him, not me.

Regarding the contest post indication, this is something I brought up during the contest solely due to the fact that I found it confusing why the contest news did not mention the word competitive, but used words like unique and innovative. Then again, in the contest thread itself, those words were not as apparent, and instead, it read competitive.

I wanted to point that on Tenshi, not on you. my apologies

SayuriTenshi · Sep 29, 2023

btp|Lancer said:
Don't you remember big maps like Twisted Meadows, Gnoll Wood or Lost Temple in the mappool for ages?. These include lot of gold mines (Turtle Rock too). Having unbuildeable places is pure design (unique?). I don't know why this is bad. What about boats in low level water? Does my map have nothing positive? really? I got 50 points from Tenshi. Why not 0?
The rest is true, I will try to fix it. Thanks!

Map contest indicates:
"Aspiring map designers will have the opportunity to create their own melee maps, focusing on strategic gameplay elements, balanced terrain design, and immersive environments. With the freedom to explore their creativity, contestants can develop captivating landscapes, intricate pathways, and innovative strategies that challenge players' abilities."
Nothing about competitive.

I would also love to hear Neytpoh opinion about your words

its 50 cuz its still fine and playable with not many bigger problems. But still remember i talk purly about a modern competetive standpoint here.

Maps like LT TM or TR are really outdated by todays standards and u can see many problems in competetive, they are also often banned cuz of balance problems and if there would be no nostalgie a map like tm today would have absolute 0 chance to be liked. Melee players already cry about much much smaller stuff.

To summerise whats rly the Problem:

1. It is just to big. Macro maps are not that well liked form a player perspective and we even had insanly polished maps liek SE and RC that didnt even made it. it leads to passive playstyles, a lot of pve, and annoying hit and run tactis.

2. You run into creeps wich is an absolute nono in todays new maps for ladder. The middle would need a total rework.

3. There is a lack of Visual polish. If you compare this to AL,TH,SG,ES,SH,RC it looks unfinished. on the maps mention u can see that every small area is handcrafted with every tree and doodad building themes and creating interresting visual zones. On Yours i see terrain that looks a bit random with a big sqaure very fast made, no natural looking terain like gras under trees and such with a good progress into different tiles. The hight is also absolute minimum and the doodad design is also very random and basic in the map. U put even more care into the outsides. in the middle most of the layout is defined by sqaure trees and cliffs, but no interresting spots.

4. Creeps are sometimes very radomly feeling a bit out of place. i am all for using cool creeps but at least have a theme for it then. You have ice bears and arachnids in a normal looking map and sometimes 3-4 different type of creeps. If u wanna do that look at other maps Painted world for example is a map with portals and magic, having exuses for very uncommen creeps. Eversong woods is close to Bloodelfs have close ties with Outland creeps cuz of the chaos.

5. Random Gimcks. Why the High ground base for an already massive map. No map since LT has that and its more then uncommen for 1v1. also the ramps that can be used when cutting down wood is just annoying to deal with and serves no real purpose and even if why split it into 2?.
Radom Boat for what? if u rly wanna push for a Boat map be creative and make a whole map around that so it will rly work. Just look at Vile reef for good inspiration.

6. General layout. Many objectives just lack good amout of space. Like goldmines or some creepspots.

This is pretty much the difference in Terrain Polish,care and amount of Spacing i mean

Zucth · Sep 30, 2023

I did try not to involve and make this any bigger problem or a long drama, but someone say that other mapper should talk more about this(I won't say who), I hope that will be the last time that I will talk about this/in this topic.

Remixer said:
Thank you for the time reviewing all the contest maps! I appreciate the effort and the feedback. I agree with practically everything and will finetune my map accordingly in areas where able to.

Your feedback (overall on all the maps) largely focuses on macro issues that somehow have seemed to pass through the radar of both most of the map makers as well as the judges and this can be somewhat seen in the reactions of participants. Whenever you cursed on the reviews I completely understood the reaction.

This is something (a point of interest in general) that I pointed out during the contest already - what kind of maps were we expected to make? The headline says competitive and the description says to focus on balance and competitiveness over other factors. Still, the news about the contest had very strong wordings such as "unique" in them, encouraging map makers to make unique maps, which can be often confused with just weird - or not normal. I'd argue this also applies to the judges' scores.

From my perspective a lot of the maps are unique, but well... not in a good way most of the time. Uniqueness itself is not something to value unless it brings additional value - perhaps the areas scored were not clear enough? Creativity and Uniqueness grant twice the points than "Visually Pleasing Terrain" - this to me sounds absurd, but it's not me who came up with the scoring. I am also confused by the differentiation into Layout and Terrain, since looking at the maps I can hardly get to the same conclusions as the judges (for the other judge 14 of the 17 maps have exactly equally visually pleasing terrain).

Ultimately I still want to thank all the participants, judges, and organizers since this kind of contest brings in interest to create more and help keep our universe alive. Keep in mind that giving and getting criticism and feedback needs to have its place too. When the three winners (perhaps more maps) are put into Hive Cup #4 we will probably get more feedback.

when I felt disappoint (tbh I was more toward mad) wasn't because of what u talk earlier but because of how the judge act. If u looking back in the past where Nethypoh was a judge in this he said something like, no lab -15 points, oh u use ship? -5 point, also no standard creep? -10 point, big map? -20 points. Compare to this event judge comment. He was like oh standard map? -30 points. While all the other non-standard or what we consider as a mistake earlier event was like "This is creative", I feel like he go for a joke seriously and what about no unique? I doubt if he even check creep-route or itemdrop? Look at what happen to Saveorcas/Rhythmt map like wtf is happen to that map score? I do have criticize but not at that low score. I won't talk about the result or how I want it to be since the judge word is final. JUDGE WORD IS FINAL [to me]!!! <- I hope that clear to who ever read this later. What happen after isn't my problem and it's not about me anyway.
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For other new face mapper, I hope you got something learn from watching the pro scene when your map got to play. Cause I also would like to say that I'm lucky, IDK either of what is this competitive is about when I first enter this scene. Tenshi hand my map to be played by other pro(not involve or even be part of the hive tournament) just only once and I already get a load or criticize and complain. You might see a lot of my work that publish on this site/my profile on how much I try and improve overtime. After a while I got another lucky that my work got to be play on tier 2/3 tournament for a while. I realize lot of things, mapping a 1v1 map is damn fucking hard even now the quality is even get higher than 2/3 years ago so don't be sad if u got a lot of criticize by other people. Deep down in 1v1 competitive scene there is a lot of thing going on that you need to consider(race match up, which heroes start with (meta), timing of camp position/itemdrop, unit armor type, tree line, macro/micro, fighting space, holding/fight over position like lab on LR, type of creep which behavior does it have) which will fuck your thought up a lot. So it's better to ignore it if you really better not consider about them if you only be here for a few time for fun. I also on verge of gave up on mapping 1v1 or even 2v2 and go toward bigger map which consider these stuff less.
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About the drama it happen every years almost like a culture by now, feel free to look back at all the drama before (goldport creator, meeral) I hope that mention these guy won't get me into another tornado of drama bringer. Just to let you know that it will happen either way one way another.
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Forever interest in join 4v4 mapping scene feel free to drop it on hive I will personally consider/review it and sent it to W3champions staff, if it's good enough since I also ran out of layout idea. :wgrin:

Tbh I would say don't have high hope in getting in 1v1 real competitive pool, there are a lot of these monster who always get into the 1v1 pool and always create such a high quality map.

WolfFarkas · Oct 1, 2023

On a good point, I am very glad this contest happened a lot, I learned a lot, I am already mapping better maps, and reworking ideas.
Thanks to Tenshi video, I am already improving the map I made for this contest.
Judges opinions about my map are also very important to me, more info to consider...

Regarding the results... (I felt frustrated,,), I am currently turning the page, working on my maps.

Zucth said:
race match up, which heroes start with (meta), timing of camp position/itemdrop, unit armor type, tree line, macro/micro, fighting space, holding/fight over position like lab on LR, type of creep which behavior does it have

And also creephacking strategies... I love those ones, go and sanwich the enemy while is engaging a creep.

Zucth said:
Forever interest in join 4v4 mapping scene feel free to drop it on hive I will personally consider/review it and sent it to W3champions staff, if it's good enough since I also ran out of layout idea. Tbh I would say don't have high hope in getting in 1v1 real competitive pool, there are a lot of these monster who always get into the 1v1 pool and always create such a high quality map.

I am very interested... I am currently mapping (A LOT). 4v4 thanks for the hint... noted.

Good luck to everybody

nees · Oct 9, 2023

I am surprised by the calm attitude of many participants towards what happened.
Two clowns just crap the contest and everyone writes: “I accept the judges’ scores.”
The best thing to do is to cancel the results and invite other judges.
Or at least cross me off the list of participants so as not to embarrass myself and have the opportunity to nominate my card in another competition (although I don’t believe that there will be).

Sorry for the extra negativity that I post on the forum. But when I applied for this contest, I expected judging like in previous contests. But what these two wrote is sucks (I use the same expression as the judge). All my indignation is caused by this.

WolfFarkas · Oct 10, 2023

nees said:
I am surprised by the calm attitude of many participants towards what happened.

by self experience, the worst thing we can do now is do flamming... ( and I did flamming september 18, guilty of that, sorry, srl and really..), if we do that there may be no hive-cup in 2024 and that would be the worst scenario for us...
lets look the bright side... maps of hive mappers will be used...

nees said:
Two clowns just crap the contest and everyone writes: “I accept the judges’ scores.”
The best thing to do is to cancel the results and invite other judges.

I may like the idea but, we dont have the power to do that.
(mappers whose maps are going to be used were asked by dm to improve the maps for the tournament,,, the tournament cogs are in motion and that goes outside the Hiveworkshop).

nees said:
Or at least cross me off the list of participants so as not to embarrass myself and have the opportunity to nominate my card in another competition (although I don’t believe that there will be).

That probably wont happen for you nor for me nor for anybody, next time another map... by fortune 1v1 dont require much time to map...

nees said:
Sorry for the extra negativity that I post on the forum. But when I applied for this contest, I expected judging like in previous contests. But what these two wrote is sucks (I use the same expression as the judge). All my indignation is caused by this.

I totally understand how you feel... (I felt the same, but we need to turn the page bro, I decided to turn the page, right now I am working on a new map and updated 2),

Right now my only wish is more melee mapping contest, and me make better maps, next time I will do better maps (Impatience for victory is a certain defeat, Baylan Skold a.k.a Ray Stevenson, RIP great actor).

good luck nees,

btp|Lancer · Oct 10, 2023

Next time, 50% of the prizepool for the judges, so we can have more judges and statements

Nightmare2077 · Oct 11, 2023

I'm saddened that there's controversey about judging,
But having said that, keep in mind that the demand for new maps isn't that high. And many users have submitted innovative and interesting (if arguably flawed) maps that too deserve a spotlight. As I said just a second ago, that spotlight is sadly narrow due to there not being a huge demand for tournaments on new maps. Feel free to follow my own and Sergey's example and sponsor a tournament

As every year, I'll feature the runner ups of this contest in a Nosmoking Cup, so they will get some exposure!

Anyway, the details of the cup itself can be found here: Hive Workshop Cup 4
The cup shall take place next week and we have a wonderful selection of invited players. Stay tuned to back2warcraft to see the top-5 maps plays

btp|Lancer · Oct 12, 2023

Check my map's name when you are able to (liquipedia). Don't know why they used the work "dark" instead of "drake". That's the reason why I placed a lot of dragon/lizzard creeps lol.

The tournament will have a lot of BO3. Niceee. I would love to see one more orc/night elf/random player.

Deliverance · Oct 17, 2023

Does someone have a zip of the original maps (the versions they were in when the polls were done)? Usually this was added to the contests in the past but not in this case it seems. Would appreciate it very much, because some of the maps have been strongly alterered now

.

Remixer · Oct 17, 2023

Deliverance said:
Does someone have a zip of the original maps (the versions they were in when the polls were done)? Usually this was added to the contests in the past but not in this case it seems. Would appreciate it very much, because some of the maps have been strongly alterered now .

I downloaded all the maps on the 13th of August, so these files might have been updated since the deadline of the 10th, but I doubt it. Note that I did not include the different prior versions of the maps in the file. Also, my map is not included as I didn't download my own map - duh, I don't have the file from that date either.

Nightmare2077 · Dec 16, 2023

Hi all,

I am glad to announce that Sergey_Revive has decided to sponsor another follow-up cup to this one.

Hive Cup 4 League will feature the following maps: Gloom Stalker, Witch Ruins, Withering Fields, Water Temple/Redcliff Lake, Shimmering Wood, Hallowed Isles, Warren's Way.

The first showmatch (full b07) will take place on Monday December 18 21:00 CET between Hipposaur (HUM) and Insuperable (UD). The second showmatch is between Dise (ORC) and RazerMoon (NE) on Thursday December 21.

These four players will then play a round robin and later the grand final.

The prizepool distribution is 110/60/45/30 USD for 1/2/3/4 place, plus additional 70USD for each showmatch.

Stay tuned!

Hive Workshop Cup 4 League

The Hive Workshop Cup 4 League is a follow-up tournament to the fourth edition of a minor tournament organized by Hiveworkshop.com and Nightmare2077, sponsored by Sergey Revive.

liquipedia.net

Hive Cup 2023: Melee Mapping Contest #9 - Results

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