Favorite Reforged Dragon so far

Chose your Dragon and explain why


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Hello mortals! I want to see, since in Beta it was available, what is your favorite Dragon model so far in Reforged? (it is Beta so far, maybe something will be changed, but we are speaking for this moment).
Those new dragons are epic, not just recolored versions we got. Even three campaign models (Searinox, Tharifas and Sapphiron) got their own models.
So, I present you 10 dragons to chose, comment and vote. (NOTE: regular species dragons are level 10, they are not in whelp and drake stadium here as option, as well Sapphiron undead, because there is already Frost Wyrm as option and Sapphiron regular, undead is hybrid of both, and 10 options are enough)
LETS DISCUSS ABOUT DRAGONS :cgrin:

BLACK DRAGON
blackd10.jpg


BLUE DRAGON
bluedr10.jpg


BRONZE DRAGON
bronze10.jpg


GREEN DRAGON

greend10.jpg


RED DRAGON
reddra10.jpg


NETHER DRAGON
nether10.png


SAPPHIRON

sapphi10.jpg


SEARONOX

searin10.jpg


THARIFAS

tharif10.jpg


FROST WYRM
frostw10.jpg


EDIT: Here is video with those
 
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I did actually comment the dragons already, in case you're interested(Warcraft 3 Reforged Leaked Previews)(#509)

In short they are the only creeps I don't actually like. All the other creeps have been WoWified and the dragons now look a little out of place. That was when they were going to WoWify the story now, though all the other creeps may look out of place, who knows.

And I think that the thing that the most powerful creep(that can take on an entire army on its own) and frost wyrm(unit you were supposed to be scared of) use Faerie Dragon animation(unit that's supposed to look cute and silly) is just lame.

As for now Nether Dragon is my favorito by far. Unlike other dragons it was WoWified and looks in line with other creeps.
 
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I did actually comment the dragons already, in case you're interested(Warcraft 3 Reforged Leaked Previews)(#509)

In short they are the only creeps I don't actually like. All the other creeps have been WoWified and the dragons now look a little out of place. That was when they were going to WoWify the story now, though all the other creeps may look out of place, who knows.

And I think that the thing that the most powerful creep(that can take on an entire army on its own) and frost wyrm(unit you were supposed to be scared of) use Faerie Dragon animation(unit that's supposed to look cute and silly) is just lame.

As for now Nether Dragon is my favorito by far. Unlike other dragons it was WoWified and looks in line with other creeps.
I kinda agree with the @Venombite here. My thoughts are that this dragons don't really fit in Wc3, well Reforged too if we look it at that way.

From the art perspective they really did a great job. I like the overall look of the dragons, but from the Wc3 perspective a lot of details get lost, thought that's the problem with lot of models(Reforged) now. But if I were to pick a favorite one I'd say Sapphiron.
 
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It seems we all share the same sentiment about the new models. Black dragon for me though. That nether dragon looks like a flying shark, i do not get the appeal :D Also were they not supposed to be semi-transparent?
 
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@Shido @Stefan.K @Venombite @Petrovic
Well guys and lady, thanks for voting and showing opinions. + rep for all of you.
My turn, as demon, I chose Nether Dragon too (although in Wc3 I made ancient map Chaos Orc race here with red dragons just like in campaign, and I prefered them because they are red just like Outland, fel orcs and many demons and has fire breath which suits demons). Also they are weird here. It is explained that when someone is under fel, they got bigger, corrupted, mutate and spikes grow around body (green orcs became red, night elves mutate into satyrs, Murlocs into Murguls, Eredar Draenei into those ugly Draenei etc... Anyway just look at any demons in Outland, they share similar characterstics). So, survived Black Dragons under Fel effects, or their affected eggs and nether energies should also mutate and grow more spikes over body. Unlike any logic, they mutate into shark like dragons. And scales like on fish. There is no way that Nether Dragons look like this (shadow version was that they became infused with fel energies similar to voids). But still I like it. Only Dragons which do not look like other Dragons! Plus, for demons! If you did not notice, they have additional par of hands, holding wings! That is cool mutation.
Blue Dragon is cool because of those blue crystals.
Black Dragon is too horny, it has awesome horns and shrap spikes I like it.
Bronze Dragon has that ,,beard" or fur, which is also unique to him. Nice shades of skin color.
Green is decent, but also nice shade and blends well in Ashenvalle.
Red Dragon has smaller nose that any Dragon, but has more spikes on different parts. Looks awesome for me, I hardly decided between him or Nether!
Sapphiron, well his horns are unique and the most distinguishable than any other Dragon (besides nether Dragon). His horns are sheep like, and unlike Blue Dragons, he is also blue but does not have those strong blue crystal like spikes. And his head overall is much different.
Tharifas is type of green Dragon in Ashenvalle. But, he is different, has more ,,crocodille" like head with two spikes at nose instead of one, and blue shades around body.
Sapphiron is also different from Black Dragon too, besides those horns, he does not have spikes as Black has. And also his head is much different.
Frost Wyrm is expectedly Undead skeleton Dragon with blue effects around him. Nice looking.

Oh, also I see that another user voted. @MoroReturns hey man! You voted for Bronze Dragon. Can you write opinion about it?
 

deepstrasz

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Yeah, the worst dragon.
But it leads with 4 votes haha

Searinox?
Oh yeah I mistaken.

The bronze dragon or Sapphiron looks awesome.
But you forgot to vote! DO it! And make man feels good after it :cgrin:

my favourite dragon is the one on the chinese qing dynasty flag
ahaha! Man you never stop to impress with your style.... Since it is your dragon, then your favorite dragon rider would be radovan karadzic or someone ,,war famous" from my country :cgrin:

Here in Brazil we use devotion term, but it's the same.
Devotion Aura. But how you are devoter of him? Like saint or completely there is his church and religion only? I noticed that you are religious lot already, but did not know that it has to do something with dragons :cgrin:
 
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Maybe as a patron of a city or country?
I guess too. But she will tell.

Also, do not mock me deepstarasz! :cgrin:
You can like and favor any race, but demons are strongest. In Wc3, unless Reforged changed something radically they corrupted any race and gave them troubles. Even if they are defeated (read pushed back) in round, all land, people everything is devastated while they have unlimited access to powerful troops and are untouched in Outland. Those dragons here are not maybe good example because there are other same powerful dragons worldwide, but I speak generally.
 

deepstrasz

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You can like and favor any race, but demons are strongest. In Wc3, unless Reforged changed something radically they corrupted any race and gave them troubles. Even if they are defeated (read pushed back) in round, all land, people everything is devastated while they have unlimited access to powerful troops and are untouched in Outland. Those dragons here are not maybe good example because there are other same powerful dragons worldwide, but I speak generally.
Demons are just a bunch of parasitic wimps.
Also, who said Nether Dragons were demonic?
 
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The Nether Dragon is objectively the coolest one :^)
In all seriousness, I've loved them ever since TBC, so I'm not surprised they win me over
 
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Demons are just a bunch of parasitic wimps.
Parasitic? They destroyed countless of worlds before this one and almost ripped apart it too.
There is just army od Dreadlords as seen in that scene. Army of heroes just as any units. Look at Outland tileset. To many level 7+ units are there. Infernal juggernaut spawns regular infernal! Even Illidan got there to hunt them in Outland ,he is demonic being as well, he would never be able to do it without their power. Arthas won game there and he is Undead, again demonic creation. Fel orcs killed demi god of Nigh elves. I did not see parasites there. Corruption yes, they tend to corrupt other races, create chaos, and jumpin, to finish off enemies.

Also, who said Nether Dragons were demonic?
Frozen Throne obviosly. In campaign they appear only as Magtheridon army together with other demons. Whatever they were before demons, they are demonic beings now. Spare me with WOW, I am not interested in that. I talk about Wc3 only. There are ni single race in Outland to be standalone (Draenei are exception under Akama but they also look mutated). Dragon are no exception as well.
 
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Which Dragon whelp is the cutest:
Nether Dragon Whelp
882499.jpg

Red Dragon Whelp
882502.jpg

Green Dragon Whelp
880986.jpg

Bronze Dragon Whelp
880922.jpg

Blue Dragon Whelp
880901.jpg

Black Dragon Whelp (acctually not supposed to be cute, but heh...)
880915.jpg
 

deepstrasz

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Parasitic? They destroyed countless of worlds before this one and almost ripped apart it too.
How's that an argument against them being parasites?
Illidan got there to hunt them in Outland ,he is demonic being as well, he would never be able to do it without their power.
Illidan is not a demon in the regular sense. He's like something like satyrs, corrupted but in a positive way as Illidan can use Fel/Chaos as an advantage.
If only being a demon or using demonic power can defeat demons, then Azeroth would have failed to protect itself long ago. Needless to remind you about the Paladin's Exorcism spell, Holy Light, Aegwynn's arcane magiks, so on.
To many level 7+ units are there.
What's gameplay got to do with it? There are many undead revenants with high level. So? They are not demonic. If you want to say something about this it's that demons in general have chaos attack type which deals full damage to any type of armour and it's the only type of attack that can damage divine armour. Again, it's a gameplay thing which has been used in one instance but against night elven demigod.
Arthas won game there and he is Undead, again demonic creation.
Not quite, indirectly only. Ner'zhul was a shaman before the orc was turned to a lich. Frostmourne on the other hand, I guess so. Warcraft III wasn't clear on that.
Fel orcs killed demi god of Nigh elves. I did not see parasites there.
You, yourself have written before. They need to "conquer" worlds to survive or satiate their hunger for magic or whatever it is. Thus, they are parasites. They cannot sustain themselves.
(Draenei are exception under Akama but they also look mutated)
They are deformed not because they've become demons but because of demonic magiks.
Spare me with WOW, I am not interested in that. I talk about Wc3 only.
Me too, lol. But seeing nether dragons under Magtheridon does not immediately prove that they are demons, natively.

Which Dragon whelp is the cutest:
Nether Dragon Whelp
 
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How's that an argument against them being parasites?
Conquerors? Destroyers? Just destructive beings for sake of destruction?

Illidan is not a demon in the regular sense. He's like something like satyrs, corrupted but in a positive way as Illidan can use Fel/Chaos as an advantage.
Illidan is literally demon, half demon half night elf and that has been shown many times in offical war craft. In face that you did not notice, he got wings, horns and all stuff. Arthas mocked him for that when they met that he turned into demon. Also, in metamorphosis tooltip says ,,Transorms into powerful demon". And for what he uses fel/chaos is not matter, it is questionable. Someone likes him thus will justify his actions, someone does not thus will blame for it, it does not matter. That fel energy came from demonic powers. Not purpose of using it. You cannot use fel without being affected by it. Now if you remaind good or evil, that is different, although Illidan in Wc3 proved to be power hungry. ,,Now you will see what I am capable of" ,,yes, power should be mine" Again I ignore WOW what says.
Oh you say in TFT that Illidan is using something for good? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You forgot KilJaeden then who is commanding him. Illidan had to look at ground and kneel in front of him. When realised that he cannot escape, he went immediately to Glacier to destroy Frozen Throne. Everyone forgot that in TFT Illidan is just demonic slave. I want to saz another word but this is not appropriate.

If only being a demon or using demonic power can defeat demons, then Azeroth would have failed to protect itself long ago. Needless to remind you about the Paladin's Exorcism spell, Holy Light, Aegwynn's arcane magiks, so on.
I did not say that. I said that they are the most powerful, not which spells are counter. Holy light does not work on demons. Just on few ones. yeah, Doom guard perhaps, Fel beats, because in game they arent under neutral hostile, but under demons scrapped side but which exists. They can be healed by death coils too. Needles to remind you that Arthas and Undeads literally almost eradicated all paladins and their Holy light, without even demonic units, except when Archimonde sent help in Dalaran.

What's gameplay got to do with it?
Seriosly? its not gameplay, it is lore gameplay. Saying things are not enough sometimes, its better if you can show them. Like this when they said that they destroyed worlds with vast army. That army has not been shown much. But in Outland ,you got tons of high level units, which means that planet where they are now (their own in game but currently as they came from twisting nether), is filled with high powered units. And only one Draenei tribe which tries to survive. Yes, they almostu nlimitedly came from those gates, from twisting nether. If you remember closing gates mission, you do not have just regular units against you (which you face regularly), but all those units which you got in unit pallete. They throw everything at you. If you fail it close it, again and again.
In Lordaeon you have units, but decent, and there are just Rock Golems which are here and there, but not in masses. So you face decent units. Also in campaign, against human, elves etc...
In Outland mission you start against powerful demons immediatelly in both missions!


There are many undead revenants with high level. So? They are not demonic.
They are raised by demonic powers since they are undead. But yes I get you point. However, my point stands. How many death revenants you face in campaign? And how many demons in just two missions? Infernals, Doom Guards, Elder Voids, Succubusses, Infernal Juggernauts, Red and Nether Dragons Level 10... Plus Fel orcs!

If you want to say something about this it's that demons in general have chaos attack type which deals full damage to any type of armour and it's the only type of attack that can damage divine armour. Again, it's a gameplay thing which has been used in one instance but against night elven demigod.
it is not gameplay. gameplay is when I play against you. This is gameplay which explains lore, some offical happenings. without that ,,used only once" you would not kill demigod! it is not ordinary unit or hero, it is the most powerful night elf in Ashenvalle. Since then Tyrande said to Malfurion ,,Cenarius is dead, Undeads are advancing and outlanders are roaming our lands freely".

Not quite, indirectly only. Ner'zhul was a shaman before the orc was turned to a lich. Frostmourne on the other hand, I guess so. Warcraft III wasn't clear on that.
He may be some other sort but still demonic. KilJaseden said ,,my creation Lich King has betrayed me".
Frostmourne is also demonic creation. Arthas got then also chaos attack and was driven mad. ALthough it is different weapon from what demons are using.

You, yourself have written before. They need to "conquer" worlds to survive or satiate their hunger for magic or whatever it is. Thus, they are parasites. They cannot sustain themselves.
Yes but I did not say that they need to conquer in order to survive. I though that they are doing this because they are destructive by nature. But maybe I am wrong, feel free to correct me, maybe somewhere is explained that they need to do this to survive.

They are deformed not because they've become demons but because of demonic magiks.
yes I did not say that they are demons, just that they deformed. Sorry for misunderstand, my bad. I wanted to say that they got deformed just by demonic magic presence. Almost whole Outland radiates. Twisting Nether for sure.

Me too, lol. But seeing nether dragons under Magtheridon does not immediately prove that they are demons, natively.
But they are. Because you need to prove then which one magtheridon uses which is not demon! No single case. it is explained in offical lore that they got from black dragon eggs and deformed by fel energy, when Draenor exploded. Fel energy is destructive by nature anyway.

Oh also, do not take me wrong, I was speaking about Outland itself. When I said about powerful units, there are in another tilesets. But again, Lich King attracts and creates Undead. So in Northrend and especially Icecrown Glacier are filled with dangerous beasts. Again, most of them are demonic creation. Sunken RUins is also dangerous. But in lore, there is Sargeras tomb there which attracted demons whose killed Guldan one of the most powerful warlocks Orcs had. And Guldan used his powers (demonic) to raise islands from seafloor. You have death revenants, skeleton orcs, murlocs became murguls and all that because of presence of demonic powers. Similat to Outland and Icecrown Glacier. You have Naga there too which are raised by Illidan powers. But transformed from Highborne! Again with weird magic. So even Undead or corrupted, some creatures never fight with demons. If not side they are a least neutral towards them, only aggressive to ,,good races". But inly in Outland missions, you do not have neutrals. All enemy and all against you and all in masses, including the most powerful units, which is not happening elsewhere. Oh yes, sidenote fairly, Ashenvalle is pretty dangerous too. There are tons of powerful units you can face there plus Night Elves.
 

deepstrasz

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Illidan is literally demon, half demon half night elf and that has been shown many times in offical war craft.
I think I've been quite clear in my previous post.
In face that you did not notice, he got wings, horns and all stuff.
Demonized=/=demon e.g. native demon.
Arthas mocked him for that when they met that he turned into demon.
Of course because Illidan is a demon hunter so, calling the character a demon is making fun of.
Also, in metamorphosis tooltip says ,,Transorms into powerful demon".
Yeah, maybe some sort of oversight? I don't remember Illidan travelling through the Twisting Nether as demons do.
You cannot use fel without being affected by it.
Cenarius is also a demon then? Ancient Wendigos, Red Dragons etc. too?
Oh you say in TFT that Illidan is using something for good? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You forgot KilJaeden then who is commanding him. Illidan had to look at ground and kneel in front of him. When realised that he cannot escape, he went immediately to Glacier to destroy Frozen Throne. Everyone forgot that in TFT Illidan is just demonic slave.
I did? Illidan made the pact with Kil'jaeden because K'j can provide the meth Illidan needs. Illidan has this weakness. Other than that the character is a worthy adversary. Kil'jaeden is obviously stronger.
And, yes, Illidan did good in both RoC and TfT. In TfT, the character aided Furion to save Tyrande. In RoC, it was Illidan who eliminated Tichondrius and an important force of the Burning Legion. Kil'jaeden is the type that works from the shadows so Illidan was a good candidate for any plans on Azeroth. And, frankly, all the bad we see Illidan do in TfT is devastate one night elf village when running from Kalimdor.
I said that they are the most powerful
In terms of gameplay, yes. But that's it.
Doom guard perhaps, Fel beats, because in game they arent under neutral hostile, but under demons scrapped side but which exists.
I don't understand.
Holy Light damage works on those units that are categorized as undead. Some demons like the dreadlords and doom guards have that category. Those who don't are not damaged by Holy Light but healed, lol. Another fact that you shouldn't put gameplay in context of the story.
Needles to remind you that Arthas and Undeads literally almost eradicated all paladins and their Holy light, without even demonic units, except when Archimonde sent help in Dalaran.
So what, lol? They were severely outnumbered.
The point I made was that demons can be defeated by non-demons quite easily.
In Outland mission you start against powerful demons immediatelly in both missions!
Gameplay wise it would have been boring otherwise since your heroes are strong?
They are raised by demonic powers since they are undead.
Revenants are not demonic in any way. They are elemental undead.
How many death revenants you face in campaign?
Who cares? It's a gameplay thing anyway. There's no proof that demons are generally stronger than any other creature. They just came in huge numbers like the zerg of StarCraft. Also, in RoC they had to create the Lich King and turn most of the Eastern Kingdoms to undead to be able to invade Kalimdor. So, I pity the fools.
Plus Fel orcs!
Again, the parasitic nature of Warcraft demons. As with the orcs, they've used the undead to invade Azeroth.
They always needed someone or something to bring them to Azeroth: Azshara, Medivh, Kel'thuzad... Weaklings, lol. In WoW, they made them stronger in this regard by giving them spaceships. But that kind of entirely killed the idea of travelling through the Twisting Nether, lol, unless hyperspace was that.
it is not gameplay. gameplay is when I play against you. This is gameplay which explains lore, some offical happenings. without that ,,used only once" you would not kill demigod! it is not ordinary unit or hero, it is the most powerful night elf in Ashenvalle. Since then Tyrande said to Malfurion ,,Cenarius is dead, Undeads are advancing and outlanders are roaming our lands freely".
Poor demons, they had to corrupt the orcs to get rid of Cenarius. Mannorth the fat lizard couldn't do it. Who's stronger, the demons or the orcs?
Frostmourne is also demonic creation. Arthas got then also chaos attack and was driven mad. ALthough it is different weapon from what demons are using.
Well, it could also be for gameplay reasons. And yeah, I've not seen either that kind of armour or weapon on any demon which is strange.
Yes but I did not say that they need to conquer in order to survive. I though that they are doing this because they are destructive by nature. But maybe I am wrong, feel free to correct me, maybe somewhere is explained that they need to do this to survive.
Sure, their nature. But if there's nothing to destroy anymore, they'll start fighting among themselves. So, in a way, it's a means of survival, at least in what integrity is concerned.

Illidan doesn't have a destructive nature after being demonized, no? Also, the demon hunter tells Kael not to be afraid of demons because in time the blood mage will become their master.
But they are. Because you need to prove then which one magtheridon uses which is not demon!
It's like with the existence or inexistence of God, can't prove either.
it is explained in offical lore that they got from black dragon eggs and deformed by fel energy, when Draenor exploded.
Source please. Can't find that in the game or manual. Also, that would make it chaos/fel dragons not nether ones. They are native to the Nether, not created outside it or from non-Nether creatures/entities.
 
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I think I've been quite clear in my previous post.
No, you wrote how he is some demonic being which does good, but all he did is wrech chaos and destruction mostly.

Demonized=/=demon e.g. native demon.
That depend of word ,,demonized". You cannot be demonized without sharing their abilities, behavior etc... The fact why you are demonized is that zou got it for some reason, usually to become stronger or what.

Of course because Illidan is a demon hunter so, calling the character a demon is making fun of.
Making fun with horns, wings and all demonic performances and just after he consumedskull of Guldan which is responsible for corrupting forest?
No my friend, this is obviosly mocking him as fact that he became similar to them or one of them.

Yeah, maybe some sort of oversight? I don't remember Illidan travelling through the Twisting Nether as demons do.
So, you have oversight in character, you have oversight in abilities, oversight in who is his master, and yet oversight in tooltip! Weird. too many oversights in one place. I do not think so. I mean, Blizzard quite did oversights, but not several at one place. This is obviosly feature. Now if one fails or does not want to see this, it is another.

Cenarius is also a demon then? Ancient Wendigos, Red Dragons etc. too?
Oh no! in WC3, they did not have chaos attacks, even dragons level 10. Only few units. in TFT they did this because of skirmish gameplay, not campaigns. They made all level 7+ units to have chaos attacks. But because all basic maps. in Wc3 regular orcs whose drank blood got chaos attacks, plus shamans got different powers, they became warlocks.

I did? Illidan made the pact with Kil'jaeden because K'j can provide the meth Illidan needs. Illidan has this weakness. Other than that the character is a worthy adversary. Kil'jaeden is obviously stronger.
Oh this is justification for weak mind? Weakness? You can have weakness, you cannot drive car properly, you cannot learn math good, you cannot do varius things.... You cannot consume skull of Guldan which turned entier forest into fel corrupting all creatures there, and call it weakness. And yes, when doing this that you claim ,,yes, power should be mine!" That is obviosly power hungry person. And mental one. And after that making pact with demon lord himself because as you claim ,,he suits your needs" that is obviosly bad and corrupted person. Those arent simple weakness.

And, yes, Illidan did good in both RoC and TfT. In TfT, the character aided Furion to save Tyrande.
Yeah? After he got sentenced to death. To save his own skin maybe. But maybe he still cares for Tyrande I wont argue that, I just want ot say that even this is questionable.

In RoC, it was Illidan who eliminated Tichondrius and an important force of the Burning Legion.
Exactly. need to remind you that thicodrius also has devine armor (unlike yo usaid before that only Cenarius has, so chaos for purpose is being used only once) There are also another characters with it, but I cannot remember now.

And, frankly, all the bad we see Illidan do in TfT is devastate one night elf village when running from Kalimdor.
yeah just one. Trying to burry elves alive is not bad thing. Raising Naga is also not bad thing, treating balance by melting Glacier is also not bad thing. And all of that because he is power corrupted and being demon servant is also not bad thing.

In terms of gameplay, yes. But that's it.
its not just it. It has been proven. Demons are not defeated just delayed. Again, its not gameplay it is lore.

I don't understand.
Holy Light damage works on those units that are categorized as undead. Some demons like the dreadlords and doom guards have that category. Those who don't are not damaged by Holy Light but healed, lol. Another fact that you shouldn't put gameplay in context of the story.
They are not healed. You cannot attack enemies with holy light. Demons in TFT have normal attacks in Outland, many of them. Not Chaos, but still, that may be also again due to matches and skirmish maps, to make Outland similar to others.

So what, lol? They were severely outnumbered.
By demonic creations, not demons themselves.

The point I made was that demons can be defeated by non-demons quite easily.
Yeah right. Then I need to remind you about Tichodrius with Devine armor, Archimonde, KilJaeden and others. mannorth, magtheridon and several others.
Oh, DO you know that one of most powerful abilities are also assigned to them. Remember Infernal Juggernaut (which even I say that it is overpowered). Spawns Infernal level 8. 10+8=18, as far I know there is no single unit which can do close to that. Oh yes, it throws infernal straight at you stunning your units on few seconds. Oh Queen of Suffering, she has unholy aura and charm, literally takes control of your units. VOidwalkers with forked lightings and devour magic, Doom Guards and Infernals, Those Eredars with finger of death and so on. Many stuff with unique Point is when you face any regular army, you fight regular way. You can't win them quite easy. High leveled units means hero duration on abilities against them. All stuff you cast upon them lasts much less, as on heroes. Oh yes, you face tank units agains you, you face heavy spellcasters (and like noted before some are unique spells only to them which you did not face before), you face heavy air units. You face artillery. In citadel you even face ships. Basically you need to prepare against anything.


Gameplay wise it would have been boring otherwise since your heroes are strong?
Or they must be strong? The fact is that those are last mission, there is no early mission in Outland for that reason.

Revenants are not demonic in any way. They are elemental undead.
I did not say that they are demonic. I said that any undead came from demonic power, because nobody can raise anything from dead like this. ressurection is another thing, but hey remain as they were in life. Again, revenant and any other do not face undeads or demons even in campaign or lore. But they do face other races.

There's no proof that demons are generally stronger than any other creature.
I just explained you more. For more explanation I would need to write detailedly, which would took me more time.

They just came in huge numbers like the zerg of StarCraft. Also, in RoC they had to create the Lich King and turn most of the Eastern Kingdoms to undead to be able to invade Kalimdor. So, I pity the fools.
Again, the parasitic nature of Warcraft demons. As with the orcs, they've used the undead to invade Azeroth.
They always needed someone or something to bring them to Azeroth: Azshara, Medivh, Kel'thuzad... Weaklings, lol.
Yes, because this is stage. This is even worse. Why would I attack you directly when I can corrupt your beloved ones to fight against you?
You never though of that? If I made you do to stealing for me or to beat someone or to do anything, how came that I am pitty and that I am fool? its you who got controlled and corrupted not me, it is you who are weak, not me. This is even worse that beating you myself. if yo uare smart and strong you would not get corrupted, converted or fooled anyway.


Poor demons, they had to corrupt the orcs to get rid of Cenarius. Mannorth the fat lizard couldn't do it. Who's stronger, the demons or the orcs?
No, yo uforgot campaign, Mannorth told that he wanted to face Cenarius in battle but he is crafty and rarely opens in combat. So, demons are pussies when do something from shadow, and night elves are not. Because people are biased. Oh look, this is their tactics jumping out of trees. But you suck, you turn people agains each other, but we are strong (ignoring fact that they can be turned which proves how weak they are). Cenarius stayed from there where elves attacking Orcs all time! CENARIUS NEEDED WOMEN TO DO JOB FOR HIM HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Also, dont forget that Archimonde told him ,,Yo uare mine Mannorth do not forget that fact. Despite Orcs failure they will still prove us useful. Then he sent Dreadlord suggesting him to corrupt pool with his blood. So this is Arhimonde's fault not directly Mannorth.

Well, it could also be for gameplay reasons. And yeah, I've not seen either that kind of armour or weapon on any demon which is strange.
That is strange yes.

Sure, their nature. But if there's nothing to destroy anymore, they'll start fighting among themselves. So, in a way, it's a means of survival, at least in what integrity is concerned.
There is no evidence for that. regardless how destructive they are there is no single evidence of them disobeying command. Only that dreadlord for his life.

Illidan doesn't have a destructive nature after being demonized, no?
No at all, except all havoc he caused. haha

Also, the demon hunter tells Kael not to be afraid of demons because in time the blood mage will become their master.
yes, Illidan told him, which turned out to be demon's bitch. So, who is master now? (Hint: Kil jaeden)

It's like with the existence or inexistence of God, can't prove either.
But God yo ucannot see, Nether Dragojs are only with demons, so they are with him, unless shown that they are either with another else or elsewhere...

Source please. Can't find that in the game or manual. Also, that would make it chaos/fel dragons not nether ones. They are native to the Nether, not created outside it or from non-Nether creatures/entities.
Sorry I canot do it now, I have no time, but I will try to find. if not then I may be read from WOW accidentally then it is my fault
 

deepstrasz

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No, you wrote how he is some demonic being which does good, but all he did is wrech chaos and destruction mostly.
No. I wrote that Illidan can use demonic energy as advantage not that the character used it only for good.
That depend of word ,,demonized". You cannot be demonized without sharing their abilities, behavior etc...
That does not make you a demon. It's like if a white person increases melanin and turns the skin black equals that that person has become a black person. No. It doesn't work that way.
No my friend, this is obviosly mocking him as fact that he became similar to them or one of them.
Arthas says: "You look different Illidan. I guess the Skull of Gul'dan didn't agree with you". This is just mocking. Arthas seemed surprised but the death knight didn't care as feelings were not something to have anymore.
Then Illidan says: "You and your Lich King duped me once but now I have the upper hand" which means that Illidan saw the consuming of the Skull of Gul'dan as manipulation.
But yeah then Arthas says: "The Frozen Throne is mine demon. Step aside". And then there are the two unused lines where Arthas tells Illidan to leave the world and never return. Now we don't know if that means because Illidan being a demon might be able to come back through the nether or that it means Arthas left Illidan to live so the demon hunter could be humiliated as backed up by the quote before which says that Illidan doesn't even deserve an honourable death.
Regardless, Arthas mocked both Illidan and Kael in that chapter because that's how the character became, cruel, uncaring and was always arrogant.
Oh no! in WC3, they did not have chaos attacks, even dragons level 10.
!?
Cenarius does
cenariusDivineChaos.png rocproof.png

You are right about the Ancient Wendigo, the Red Dragon and others. The unit has normal attack type.
In TfT, even in the campaigns, those creatures have chaos attack type. Well, at least those which appeared.

Even if they would have not had chaos in RoC as you mentioned (which isn't true) that would still be no argument as we're playing and modding TfT for like since 2003. Again such matters shouldn't be inferred from gameplay.
Those arent simple weakness.
Of course it's not a simple weakness it's cocaine addiction. Even Kael and the blood elves resorted to consorting with demons indirectly.
I just want ot say that even this is questionable.
Nah, this is clear. Tyrande will forever be Illidan's crush.
Illidan has had two instance when the character basically begged to live, actually one in Outland when Illidan thought going there would ensure escaping from Kil'jaeden. Second, well, in this case, Illidan was just desperate of the consequences Kil'jaeden might make a reality, thus screaming at Arthas that Illidan sworn to destroy the Frozen Throne and that it had to be done.
Other than that, Illidan never begged to be let to live, not even after Arthas defeated the demon hunter. According to the unused lines, only Arthas ever said anything and basically mocked Illidan further telling the character to get out of there and never return and that Arthas would be waiting for Illidan if the demon hunter would return.

Understanding Illidan's tale is like that of a junkie who gets in the wrong places with the wrong people, drug traffic, debts etc.
Yeah? After he got sentenced to death.
Illidan wasn't sentenced to death. That would have saved a lot of trouble for both the demon hunter and the night elves. Instead they imprisoned the character indefinitely in darkness.
Exactly. need to remind you that thicodrius also has devine armor (unlike yo usaid before that only Cenarius has, so chaos for purpose is being used only once) There are also another characters with it, but I cannot remember now.
Archimonde has it but the hero is only used for occupying bases as the Burning Legion advances up Mount Hyjal. You don't engage the Eredar Warlock.
Yes, they used that gameplay trick for Tichondrius as well. I forgot. But no chaos attack, lol.

Yeah, I don't know what they thought. In that chapter Illidan tells Tichondrius: "Now let's see how confident you are against one of your own kind, dreadlord".

I guess, you win although to me it doesn't make sense. It's as if Illidan had a genetic sex change.
yeah just one. Trying to burry elves alive is not bad thing. Raising Naga is also not bad thing, treating balance by melting Glacier is also not bad thing. And all of that because he is power corrupted and being demon servant is also not bad thing.
I didn't say it wasn't bad that night elves died as a result of bringing the naga. I'm saying, besides that, Illidan did what the character thought would be good in Illidan's point of view considering the character was serving Kil'jaeden. The Lich King was an obvious cancer.
its not just it. It has been proven. Demons are not defeated just delayed. Again, its not gameplay it is lore.
Debatable. It doesn't say all of them have this power to return. It's vaguely mentioned in the manual that Sargeras was fighting countless demons and that there was no end to them.
The Nether, an ethereal dimension of chaotic magics that connected the myriad worlds of the universe together, was home to an infinite number of malefic, demonic beings, who sought only to destroy life and devour the energies of the living universe.

Sargeras, a noble giant of molten bronze, carried out his duties for countless millennia, seeking out and destroying the demons wherever he could find them. Over the eons, Sargeras encountered two powerful demonic races, both of which were bent on gaining power and dominance over the physical universe.

The Eredar, an insidious race of devilish sorcerers, used their warlock magics to enslave a number of worlds that they had invaded. The indigenous races of those worlds were mutated by the Eredar’s chaotic powers and turned into demons themselves.


Though Sargeras’ nearly limitless powers were more than enough to defeat the vile Eredar, he was greatly troubled by the creatures’ corruption and all-consuming evil. Unable to fathom such depravity and spite, the great Titan slipped into a brooding depression. Despite his growing unease, Sargeras sought to rid the universe of the warlocks for all time, by trapping them within a vacuous corner of the Twisting Nether.

As his confusion and depression deepened, Sargeras was forced to contend with another group intent on disrupting the Titans’ order. The Nathrezim, a dark race of vampiric demons (also known as Dreadlords) set out to conquer a populated world by possessing its inhabitants and turning them to the shadow. The nefarious, scheming Dreadlords had turned whole nations against one another by manipulating them through unthinking hatred and mistrust. Though Sargeras defeated the Nathrezim easily, their corruption affected him deeply.

Even Sargeras’ titanic form distorted from the corruption that plagued his once noble heart. His eyes, hair and beard erupted in flames and his bronze, metallic skin split open to reveal an endless furnace of hate and flame.

In his madness, Sargeras shattered the prisons of the Eredar and the Nathrezim and set the vile demons free. The cunning demons, bowing before the dark Titan’s vast rage and power, offered themselves to him and swore to serve him in whatever malicious way they could. From the ranks of the powerful Eredar, Sargeras chose two champions to lead his demonic army of destruction.
From that one could deduce that the eredar and nathrezim are the problematic demons that actually have anything properly to do with the physical world.
But if we go by the Diablo demon lore, then that means we might see Archimonde and possibly Mannoroth again which would not only be lame but that could mean that demons would win in the end by slowly decimating Azeroth bit by bit.
Also, it looks like demons could actually be "forever" locked in the Twisting Nether by something as powerful as Sargeras. I guess, that power still has to go on for the prison to be kept under lock.

Another point to demons being parasites.
And another point to you for demons or demonic magic turning non-demons into demons.
They are not healed. You cannot attack enemies with holy light. Demons in TFT have normal attacks in Outland, many of them. Not Chaos, but still, that may be also again due to matches and skirmish maps, to make Outland similar to others.
I don't undestand. When are they not helaed or you cannot damage them with Holy Light? I just tested it. It's exactly how I wrote it before. If you're strictly referring to that chapter of the campaign, there is no Holy Light there to begin with?
Not all demons have chaos attack, only the stronger/higher level ones.
By demonic creations, not demons themselves.
Yeah, so, what's your point? How does that mean they were still not outnumbered? If the Plague had been stopped when it should have been, humanity or Lordaeron and Quel'thalas would not have fallen. It's weird how they didn't use such a strategy in War of the Ancients. I guess, night elves aren't as easy to turn to undead and/or the demons didn't have such a necromatic development/advancement back then.
Yeah right. Then I need to remind you about Tichodrius with Devine armor, Archimonde, KilJaeden and others. mannorth, magtheridon and several others.
Divine armour is just a gameplay mechanic. It's why I'm stressing we don't put this into the story context because it creates problems.
Mannoroth was defeated by two orcs, lol, well, yeah... you could say Grom had chaos but wasn't red anymore :D
Magtheridon? The fat demon failed miserably. Sure, the Black Citadel had good defenses but the demon alone wasn't that tough. I think Illidan could have 1v1 MagT anytime.
Kil'jaeden works from the shadows. We don't know how strong the demon actually is face to face.
Remember Infernal Juggernaut (which even I say that it is overpowered). Spawns Infernal level 8. 10+8=18, as far I know there is no single unit which can do close to that
Sure but if we put gameplay into context again, Archimonde doesn't even need mana to call 4 Infernals at once and summon Doom Guards and Fel Stalkers. Plus, Finger of Death. Also, Archimonde is immune to magic. But none of these matter since we don't face the demon ingame.
Those Eredars with finger of death and so on.
Finger of Pain. It's not as strong as Finger of Death.
Well, the dreadlord can summon an infernal too. Dragons can eat one unit whole lol. I mean, it's a bit of an exaggeration that demon units are stronger than any other. It's mostly due to the fact that most demon units have chaos attack type. Neutral Stormreavers have Animated Dead, Monsoon.
Faceless and Unbroken with Animate Dead, Unholy Frenzy and chaos attack. They are not demons by the way.
Magnataurs with chaos damage, spell immunity, frost bolt and slam (thunder clap).
I mean, demons have many units but they are like say races of Azeroth. So when you compare demons you don't compare them to only humans, trolls, one spefic race because demons are made of more than 1 race. Demons are not a race, they are a faction. Eredar is one race, Nathrezim is another, Succubus another, so on.
Don't forget Draenei are invisible :D
Also, naga have strong units.
In citadel you even face ships. Basically you need to prepare against anything
The Sky Barges? Weren't they only used for transport? I think that idea was scrapped. I don't see any flying units on that map.
Funny thing is that you can rescue Bloodfiends with Draenei :D
Or they must be strong? The fact is that those are last mission, there is no early mission in Outland for that reason.
Yah, that's the reason those units are strong, it's the last chapters :D
I did not say that they are demonic. I said that any undead came from demonic power, because nobody can raise anything from dead like this.
We don't know that. There is no explanation how revenants came to be, if any demonic energy is involved at all. Note that elementals are not technically alive.
Why would I attack you directly when I can corrupt your beloved ones to fight against you?
The demons could not have entered Azeroth without corrupting Azshara and the highborne. They were the ones to open the portals. It's weird how then in RoC, dreadlords were venturing around. There are many inconsistencies. I guess, the idea is that they can come but not in vast numbers. That's why they needed portals and stuff.
Also, since you wrote demons don't die and come back, what were they afraid of lol that they had to wait and convert entire populations of planets to even start an invasion?
You never though of that? If I made you do to stealing for me or to beat someone or to do anything, how came that I am pitty and that I am fool? its you who got controlled and corrupted not me, it is you who are weak, not me. This is even worse that beating you myself. if yo uare smart and strong you would not get corrupted, converted or fooled anyway
Yeah sure but as it went, they failed each time, lol. I'm saying, even with that advantage, they still lost. That's why the Burning Legion is wimpy.
No, yo uforgot campaign, Mannorth told that he wanted to face Cenarius in battle but he is crafty and rarely opens in combat. So, demons are pussies when do something from shadow, and night elves are not. Because people are biased. Oh look, this is their tactics jumping out of trees. But you suck, you turn people agains each other, but we are strong (ignoring fact that they can be turned which proves how weak they are). Cenarius stayed from there where elves attacking Orcs all time! CENARIUS NEEDED WOMEN TO DO JOB FOR HIM HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I guess Cenarius is a serial dreamer.
The thing is, Mannoroth did not come to face Cenarius even after the orcs drew the demigod out.
There's a difference ambushing and not even being present at the spot of battle like the cowardly demons.
Also, dont forget that Archimonde told him ,,Yo uare mine Mannorth do not forget that fact. Despite Orcs failure they will still prove us useful. Then he sent Dreadlord suggesting him to corrupt pool with his blood. So this is Arhimonde's fault not directly Mannorth.
I don't understand. You're saying Archimonde forbade Mannoroth to fight Cenarius? Nope. Tichondrius told Mannoroth that Archimonde suggested to use the orcs to kill Cenarius. So yeah, smart but cowardly :D
CENARIUS NEEDED WOMEN TO DO JOB FOR HIM HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Lack of custom units :D
There is no evidence for that. regardless how destructive they are there is no single evidence of them disobeying command. Only that dreadlord for his life.
What command? I am saying if they become leaderless, they'll probably gnaw at each other if there will be nothing to consume anymore.
No at all, except all havoc he caused. haha
Yeah, but let's face it, we didn't see Illidan do it without a reason :D opium that is.
yes, Illidan told him, which turned out to be demon's bitch. So, who is master now?
Kil'jaeden is not just any demon. The idea was that probably Illidan was dreaming of overpowering even the Great One.
But God yo ucannot see, Nether Dragojs are only with demons, so they are with him, unless shown that they are either with another else or elsewhere...
Well, you can see God, theoretically in scriptures, depictions, churces and such.

Anyways, by Warcraft III mind boggling lore, Illidan is a demon. You've won.
 
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@deepstrasz Man it is epic to talk to you! Real pleasure.
Now my turn:

No. I wrote that Illidan can use demonic energy as advantage not that the character used it only for good.
Oh yes. I misunderstood then, I am sorry. But still I want to say, not matter what he ,,wants" to use demonic energy for, it takes its price.
This is one thing which you did not understand from start.
You can use shamanistic powers, those human/night elf arcane or how they are called. You can use druidistic powers, basically you can use each power any race uses and combine them and vice versa. BUT YOU CANNOT USE DEMONIC POWERS LIKE THAT. They always have side effect. Mutation, corruption, changing appearance (bigger in size than before, got eyes glowing in red or green/yellow color, horns and spikes around body, usually wild and uncontrollable), and after some time using it, there is no way back. Only one whose (seems temporarly) got back from demonic powers/fel energy is Grom Hellscream, but he is single case and he is hero, and yet again for him team of priestes, shamans and Jaina needed to work to clean him. And again, in front of Pitlord, he started to transofrms back (his eyes got red again). So, in Wc3 lore, demonic powers are powerul than others, but they always take such prize. Orc Necrolutes (Guldan and others), and many others did it and got more powerful. But why not FUrion for example, Paladins and others? Not because their magic is powerful but because Fel is uncontrollable and is bad. Thast how demons actually mostly convert other races.

That does not make you a demon. It's like if a white person increases melanin and turns the skin black equals that that person has become a black person. No. It doesn't work that way.
Again, as stated above, this is not same. We are not talking about genes and hormones, we are talking about physical empowerment. We are talking about power which is corrupt and devastated. it is said many times that this is destructive power.
See movie for example. I am not taking it as some lore or what, but fel energy is again (as many times before) shown what to do. Mediv said that fel power is something very bad, and is not place in Azeroth. But he used fel power himself. And not matter that he is the most powerful wizard, fel power corrupted it alone. Just like Illidan, Medivh grow bigger, he got dark with green eyes, and was covered with spikes. In fact I very liked this looking! he started to drain life from his own people, killing them, seding them in traps, he put orcs into this wordl... he replaced arcane pool with fel pool, and once his dead golem felt into it, it revived as fel golem. And all of this happened because he simply used that power. So again, this is not game it is movie and thus not related much, but fel power is pretty much explained here exactly as in Wc3. Except Illidan is not that mad as medivh at that level.

Arthas says: "You look different Illidan. I guess the Skull of Gul'dan didn't agree with you". This is just mocking. Arthas seemed surprised but the death knight didn't care as feelings were not something to have anymore.
Then Illidan says: "You and your Lich King duped me once but now I have the upper hand" which means that Illidan saw the consuming of the Skull of Gul'dan as manipulation.
But yeah then Arthas says: "The Frozen Throne is mine demon. Step aside". And then there are the two unused lines where Arthas tells Illidan to leave the world and never return. Now we don't know if that means because Illidan being a demon might be able to come back through the nether or that it means Arthas left Illidan to live so the demon hunter could be humiliated as backed up by the quote before which says that Illidan doesn't even deserve an honourable death.
Regardless, Arthas mocked both Illidan and Kael in that chapter because that's how the character became, cruel, uncaring and was always arrogant.
I completely forgot about that but yes. Illidan even drawn near naga and Blood Elves within it.

!?
Cenarius does
And this is what confuses me. But he is exception case much as dreadlord with devine armor. Also Cenarius is demogod. he is only one, perhaps demogods have chaos attacks.

You are right about the Ancient Wendigo, the Red Dragon and others. The unit has normal attack type.
In TfT, even in the campaigns, those creatures have chaos attack type. Well, at least those which appeared.
Well, it is because in TFT they changed globally. And in order to make close to lore, they would go to single mission and replace their attack type from chaos to normal which would take time because there too many units in campaigns and they screwed idea.

Of course it's not a simple weakness it's cocaine addiction. Even Kael and the blood elves resorted to consorting with demons indirectly.
Yes but we did not see what happened to them because those were last missions. In WOW they mutated int ofelbloodelves but I do not care about WOW.

Nah, this is clear. Tyrande will forever be Illidan's crush.
I can't argue with you over that. You know those things, i am just demonic expert. Those are nighelves and Illidan's pre demonic state.

Illidan has had two instance when the character basically begged to live, actually one in Outland when Illidan thought going there would ensure escaping from Kil'jaeden. Second, well, in this case, Illidan was just desperate of the consequences Kil'jaeden might make a reality, thus screaming at Arthas that Illidan sworn to destroy the Frozen Throne and that it had to be done.
Yeah, I am curious why is he so afraid of him. If Illidan is dead, he is dead anyway. What could Kil jaeden do to him after life?

Other than that, Illidan never begged to be let to live, not even after Arthas defeated the demon hunter. According to the unused lines, only Arthas ever said anything and basically mocked Illidan further telling the character to get out of there and never return and that Arthas would be waiting for Illidan if the demon hunter would return.
Yes, but before WOW we though he is dead. And it turned out that he is alive but heavily wounded. Even if he wanted to beg for life he was unable to because he could not even move.
That fight is dumb however. It does not make sense. Illidan is over 10 000 years old, got fel empowerment and is superior to Arthas in any way. And he is bigger. Demonic night elf against human sized man. Plus he can turn into demonic form to get even stronger and bigger. There is only one explanation that at very end Lich King restored and even gave Arthas almost all his powers, so Illidan did not have chance then. He cheated :cgrin:

Understanding Illidan's tale is like that of a junkie who gets in the wrong places with the wrong people, drug traffic, debts etc.
Yes, you have point here all. But you forgot one thing. Illidan is arrogant and this costed him as well. Remember that in cutscene before mission, Arthas and Illidan got fight and was eventually mach. Illidan told him that they can fight like this forever and asked him what does he want anyway. When Arthas explainedh im about skull of guldan and such, Illidan asked him ,,Why should I trust you anything you say to him little human?" Can you imagine it? Calling him little human, man who is equal to him in battle. 10 000 years old, powerful, skilled and yet again got equal to Arthas and yet mocks him ,,little human". Here is not Arthas little as Illidan is. His arrogancy costed him greatly. And stupidity. Instead wait for Malfurion, he took action himself to prove something. Even if not corrupted before, he became after consuming it.

Oh yes, you forgot also line of Furion at end of mission ,,What have you done with my brother you faul demon?" And he replied ,,it is I Furion, this is what I become". then he explained that leader of undead is dead, and forest will heal itself in time. Then druid told him ,,AT THE COST OF YOUR SOUL" So you here clearly have AGAIN stance that fel corruption corrupts everyone, including their souls, and that this was demon now. Not just Arthas, but Furion said this too.

Illidan wasn't sentenced to death. That would have saved a lot of trouble for both the demon hunter and the night elves. Instead they imprisoned the character indefinitely in darkness.
Yes, I am lazy to take screenshots now. At end of mission when you kill Naga summoners, they capture Illidan. And Maiev sentenced him to death, and Malfurion told that he afraids that imprisonment wont be enough this time. Then Illidan did not beg for life but tried to justify himself just moment before Maiev killed him ,,Fools! Cannot you see? Spell we channel was meant to destroy Ligh King and Undead". And just because Maiev lied to Furin about Tyrande, Illidan was spared as he could help.

Yes, they used that gameplay trick for Tichondrius as well. I forgot. But no chaos attack, lol.
I think it is because all heroes because of balance had normal attack. Grom Hellscream is exception because he is meant to kill Cenarius and Mannorth!

Yeah, I don't know what they thought. In that chapter Illidan tells Tichondrius: "Now let's see how confident you are against one of your own kind, dreadlord".
Ah yes I forgot that. That too. But also Malfurion at end when called him ,,foul demon"

I didn't say it wasn't bad that night elves died as a result of bringing the naga. I'm saying, besides that, Illidan did what the character thought would be good in Illidan's point of view considering the character was serving Kil'jaeden. The Lich King was an obvious cancer.
Ilidan should not even burn that fishing villages. They even burned down ships and those villages to prevent them creating ships so they can be followed across sea. This is literally paranoia. He would not do that perhaps if he was not night elf demon. Killing Maiev and her forces are one thing. He sided with Satyrs! Corrupted night elves! So, it is not only Naga. he did multiple mistakes. But yes, about those villages, you pointed out.
For that Malfurion had right directly to send whole army and track him down. Although Malfurion were harsh and strict towards his own brother, when he had right to take action against him, he did not. Perhaps he did not know that yet.

Debatable. It doesn't say all of them have this power to return. It's vaguely mentioned in the manual that Sargeras was fighting countless demons and that there was no end to them.
Hey where did you get those informations? In Manual? Where is this?
From that one could deduce that the eredar and nathrezim are the problematic demons that actually have anything properly to do with the physical world.
See this
wc3scr10.jpg

wc3scr11.jpg

in this second picture here is army of Dreadlords (there are more in left side which are not here in this moment) passing gates! Except few Wizard heroes in Dalaran, you do not see anywhere mass number of heroes. And few Paladins overally. Those Dreadlords are just for one gate and just at one place.
Also, it looks like demons could actually be "forever" locked in the Twisting Nether by something as powerful as Sargeras. I guess, that power still has to go on for the prison to be kept under lock.
Oh yeah, I think in Gates of Abyss, when Illidan closes gates, they are coming from there.
Another point to demons being parasites.
And another point to you for demons or demonic magic turning non-demons into demons.
Oh yes, this magic also turns non demons into demons. I also said that. But I said that non demon cannot use demonic power without becomming one, or demon type.
I don't undestand. When are they not helaed or you cannot damage them with Holy Light? I just tested it. It's exactly how I wrote it before. If you're strictly referring to that chapter of the campaign, there is no Holy Light there to begin with?
Not all demons have chaos attack, only the stronger/higher level ones.
Oh, holy light is not working in Outland because they are alive! Use Paladin and test holy light against demon!It will work only against Doom Guard and Fel beast. And maybe Pit lord. But doom guard and fel beasts are here with Undeads as well. You know, demons from Outlandand twisting Nether, but located in other areas too. They are in Feelwood and in Undead missions. Alongisde with Infernal, but he is magic immune.
Yeah, so, what's your point? How does that mean they were still not outnumbered?
No, I did not say that. it is said already that each time someone of them fails in battle, he immediatelly raises as Undead. But they are raised as skeletons or such. The yare not that powerful, just masses with easy units. Unlike demons in outland, they mass units you with high powered units.
If the Plague had been stopped when it should have been, humanity or Lordaeron and Quel'thalas would not have fallen. It's weird how they didn't use such a strategy in War of the Ancients.
That is true. But still in ROC they did not show Outland with those vast forces. KaelThalas those High Elves would not be match for demons from there. They have no tank unit either. Only 4 Rock Golems level 9 (which are super powerful) and some heroes. Humans have something, some knights, elf spellcasters, drarves and such, but still not match for them either (I count fel orcs under Demons too). You have point only if plague is meant to determine victory or no. If demons somehow could enter Lordearan. it would be ended quickly. Humans and elves have no force to stop them. But I said IF. But you constantly keep arguing that demons are same as other units. yes, sure. Footman, militia and other weaklings against those all.

I guess, night elves aren't as easy to turn to undead and/or the demons didn't have such a necromatic development/advancement back then.
Night elves are beaten in different way. Fel Orcs destroyed some, and corrupted Ancients with some demons combined are supposed to wipe out Ashenvalle. If Illidan did not stop them they would success.
wc3scr12.jpg

You see, Felwood corruption is permanent. So even demons got cleared from Ashenvalle, corruption is still in felwood and some demons are there.
Divine armour is just a gameplay mechanic. It's why I'm stressing we don't put this into the story context because it creates problems.
Mannoroth was defeated by two orcs, lol, well, yeah... you could say Grom had chaos but wasn't red anymore
Grom's eyes started to glow red, he was about to turn again. Then he sacrificed himself to kill demon and himself with super blow (caused by fel energy again).
Thrall did not even hurt Mannorth. Remember that Mannorth missed Thrall, hit ground, and from ground crack, Thrall flied away few meters, hit in rock and got his hand broken. And it was not direct hit, it was miss! That literally made him unable to continue fight. And he is chieftain of Horde. That Mannorth is far from weak. So, technically one orc killed him, empowered with fel and sacrificed himself. Thrall was lucky to survive, if Grom did not do it, Mannorth would killed them both. Watch that video again. Well it could be said that Mannorth was killed from his own creation.
Magtheridon? The fat demon failed miserably. Sure, the Black Citadel had good defenses but the demon alone wasn't that tough. I think Illidan could have 1v1 MagT anytime.
Illidan would win 1vs1 anytime? AHAHAHAHAHAHA
have yo useen his stats? You needed many units to beat him ingame. he has enormous strenght and damage, few spells and reincarnation! :cgrin:
Two Illidans cannot beat him. Illidan said himself that brutal lord mannorth is storng but over years he became decadent because he has only few enemies to test. Eveyrwhere you have sides clashing. You mentioned Lordearon. But they have trolls and Ogres and other units to fight against there. Oh and bandits. So even they are not together. Orcs in Barrens have many problems. Only Night elves are in better position (until Feelwood). But only in Outland there is nobody. Everyone is at same side except Akama's tribe of Draenei which fought for generations and almost got eradicated.
Kil'jaeden works from the shadows. We don't know how strong the demon actually is face to face.
But we know that mighty Illidan got scared to death of him, that much that he is only one who got in Outland to fight demons just ot escape him :cgrin:
have you seen his size? He covers whole screen hahaha

Sure but if we put gameplay into context again, Archimonde doesn't even need mana to call 4 Infernals at once and summon Doom Guards and Fel Stalkers. Plus, Finger of Death. Also, Archimonde is immune to magic. But none of these matter since we don't face the demon ingame.
Because it is intended that he won anyway. But on tree of life he got temporarly weak that 1000 specially designed wisps can overpower him. yet again tree of life is destroyed. Night elves are mortal now!
Finger of Pain. It's not as strong as Finger of Death.
Oh yes, but they are similar, so I forgot about that.
Well, the dreadlord can summon an infernal too. Dragons can eat one unit whole lol. I mean, it's a bit of an exaggeration that demon units are stronger than any other.
Ok, dare to compare unit types then with others? And abilities, what they can have.
I do not know how to explain you better. Again, only they have super tank units, casters, both casters and powerful units, airborne units and naval units combined! Plus that in large numbers which are not seen in other parts. And as I explained already, in Outland there are Draenei only as enemies, small number of them, so they have no enemies and nobody before Illidan tried to invade them. In all other areas there are constant treates and fighting which again goes to demon's advantage because all they have to do is to focus on assualt, not much on defense unlike others.
It's mostly due to the fact that most demon units have chaos attack type.
And aircraft and naval and heavy tank units and siege and heavy spellcasters. And tons of heroes as seen in that screenshot.
Neutral Stormreavers have Animated Dead, Monsoon.
Yes! But they are neutral! They fought against night elves, against player. You have them there logically but they are not massively trained, unlike Demons Level 9.
Also those necrolutes, they were under Guldan, whose also was heavily under fel energies. Their mafics came from demonic powers. Yes, they are not directly with demons, but their strenght came from it. Like I said, whole or almost whole Sunken ruins came from demonic powers. Islands were raised with help of demonic magics. There is Tomb of Sargeras which emits that radiation too, attracts demons. Those killed Guldan even, and his orcs. because of it, Orcs got ressurected as Skeleton orcs. And Murlocs got converted into Murguls.I mean in moment when Maiev and night elves came, it is not longer under demonic energies. They are not affected because it is over, but damage is done, many races happened because of this. You do not have any native units there because everything is recent, 20 years ago. So again, demonic powers.
Faceless and Unbroken with Animate Dead, Unholy Frenzy and chaos attack. They are not demons by the way.
No they are. I think they predates most races on planet. But they are awaken because of it, melting ice crown. But again, faceless ones are not many of types, jsut few, and sure they are powerful and forgotten ones spawns them in masses just as demonic gate spawns demons. Still, there in Glacier you have multiple clashed sides. Undeads in one side, dwarve hiding in caves in another, nerubians in third. So, Outland is much safer for demons than Icecrown Glacier for Faceless and others. Arthas destroyed them anyway. But yes, again ,they are powerful lot, although not as demons still. They lack air units, siege units, defenses, and naval units at all. However I already explained that Northrend is especially dangerous place too, almost as Outland. As I did said about Sunken Ruins. You perhaps forgot that.

Magnataurs with chaos damage, spell immunity, frost bolt and slam (thunder clap).
Magnataurs are awesome! I like them. That Magnataur defeated Doom Guard and most level 8 units 1 vs1. Only Infernal could beat it (I cannot remember of another unit). Magnataur Level 10 is more epic. I never tested it. So yes he is powerful unit type close as demon. But still, they are not trained in mass numbers, and you know, Juggernaut still beats any unit :cgrin: even magnataur.

I mean, demons have many units but they are like say races of Azeroth.
But as explained above, they are not exactly like others, but I got your point.
So when you compare demons you don't compare them to only humans, trolls, one spefic race because demons are made of more than 1 race. Demons are not a race, they are a faction. Eredar is one race, Nathrezim is another, Succubus another, so on.
Yes, but it is counted as race, even it is faction. In Lordean you have Alliance composed of humans, elves, dwarves... But again, in Lordean they are not together with trolls, Ogres, Gnolls and other neutrals. And undeads. And the fact that they are in same world with every single other race, which can come and invade across sea. Demons are in Outland (with Fel orcs) which is harder ro reach and they have no natural enemies there except small Draenei faction. This is also what is important to compare.
Now you get point in another type of this conversation. When demons invade that area (tileset for easier recognition) they will have to face humans, elves and all other races there because they will all fight for survival.
But when you need to Outland and conquer it, you face almost same, except Draenei as well.

Don't forget Draenei are invisible
yes! And this helped them so far :cgrin:
Without Illidan, naga and blood elves they would get eradicated. Yes, invisibility is ability which I personally value the most (the invisible man is my favorite classic monster :cgrin: ) but against demons it is not enough.
But yes even worse, if you go to conquer Outland you have to fight against invisibility as well.
Also, naga have strong units.
Yes, again I said that before and thus consider Sunken Ruins dangerous place too. Still, Naga has only Royal Guard (which is not trained anywhere there massivelly, but okay it is stil present somewhere) which is considered very powerful! he is match to demons. Other units which yo ucan train in fact can be easily countered. DO you know how many types have cripple, one of the most powerful abilities? 3! nether Dragons, Doom Guards and Fel Orc Warloc! Naga units are done with it. Sure, Couatls can dispel magic, but Sucusbbus has silence! And charm! They can convert any of Naga units (except Royal Guard). And they have many other abilities to throw at Naga. naga Sirens and royal guard can throw shit back them too (but they are only two unit types as casters), demons can easily counter those with few dispel units (Eredar has abolish magic, Fel ravager and Voidwalker have Devour magic and doomguard has dispel). Naga is amphibious, so they have advantage there maybe but still, Fel Orcs have Orc Juggernauts and Frigates! And Hydras are being used there by demons :cgrn: named doombeasts! Like I said, hard targets man. Oh, both Naga and Demons lack healers. Demons sucks at it only, but still have Sucubbus with Unholy Aura to enhance their regeneration. Oh, and there is Fel Orc beastmaster (holy light). And thats it perhaps.
The Sky Barges? Weren't they only used for transport? I think that idea was scrapped. I don't see any flying units on that map.
No, I meant on Fel Orc Ships which fought by naga. And doombeasts.
Funny thing is that you can rescue Bloodfiends with Draenei
Yeah, they got punished and put in caves and get tortured :cgrin: As well as other Draenei you rescue.
Yah, that's the reason those units are strong, it's the last chapters
Yeah, last two! Before kneeling to Kiljaeden :cgrin:
We don't know that. There is no explanation how revenants came to be, if any demonic energy is involved at all. Note that elementals are not technically alive.
Yes, elementals are not alive, but still not Undead! Revenanta are market as Undead, go and select it ,,level 9 Undead". Those are corrupted, elementals can be corrupted. I read somewhere that revenants were once fallen warriors or such, but I am tired now, I cant search for that.
The demons could not have entered Azeroth without corrupting Azshara and the highborne. They were the ones to open the portals.
Yes. I said they are the most powerful but meant once they are in for battle. Until you prevent them you are Okay.
Also, since you wrote demons don't die and come back, what were they afraid of lol that they had to wait and convert entire populations of planets to even start an invasion?
I did not write that they cannot die. I just said they are more powerful than any other race.
And ask Blizzard why is that. Same as night elf tactic. They corrupt then invade. in ROC there is no Outland, perhaps they introduct demonic army in Outland. They wanted to make them playable race so they scrapped it and adapted it to Undeads in ROC.

I guess Cenarius is a serial dreamer.
The thing is, Mannoroth did not come to face Cenarius even after the orcs drew the demigod out.
There's a difference ambushing and not even being present at the spot of battle like the cowardly demons.

I don't understand. You're saying Archimonde forbade Mannoroth to fight Cenarius? Nope. Tichondrius told Mannoroth that Archimonde suggested to use the orcs to kill Cenarius. So yeah, smart but cowardly
Read that dialogue. Archimonde clearly said that Mannorth is his and that they will watch Orcs and wait. Despite their failure they will still be useful. He said that after Mannorth said that he is aware of Orcs failure and that he will discipline himself personally, and that they are his by right. Archimonde already had plans for Orcs since they happened to be in Kalimdor. it was planned that they got corrupted and kill Cenarius. And in that fountainf of blood. See that dialogue too. Mannorth said that he wanted to face Cenarius in kombat directly, but he is crafty and rarey goes to open. So technically its not my fault that I want to fight you directly, and you are waiting in trees and constanty avoiding me. This is your tactics, I give you that, but because I am not going to follow your style does not make me coward. I wont go to pursie you in trees, I will make someone else to do job for me. But Cenarius sent women against them! Against Orcs while green yet. And he attacked them with Airborne units and such.... Orcs did not have that, they were limtied. No taurens and no air units. So who is coward then? Accodring to your logics, Night elves are actually. But no. Nobody is coward here. Night elves are under attack. Their homeland is under attack. There isn o measuring muscles, they attack with everything they got! Read dialogue. dreadlord told that Archimode said that Orcs can kill Cenarius for them! So, while I agree with you, but situation was that nobody was coward.

Lack of custom units
You my warriors attack intruders and I will watch you from here! :cgrin:
And warriors are women mostly hahahahah

Oh did not you notice that those night elf heroes are arrogant and overconfident too? Maybe same as demons.

,,Who dare you to defile this land? Iam hearth of this land"
,,I defeated your kind ages ago and I should do this again"

Remember Maiev also ,,Naga. Many craven races have tempted our wrath for centuries. None have survived"
Can you imagine this quote? Which races they beat for centuries? And yet again against Undeads and Archimonde they had to team with Orcs and Undeads to back them off. And not to repeat about killed Cenarius, Feelwood and other stuff there. And Ilidan converted. They got almost eradicated.

Yeah, but let's face it, we didn't see Illidan do it without a reason :D opium that is.
Yeah, lets face it. i did not break your head with stone, opium did that. :cgrin: But why am I using it anyway? And who forced me to use it? nevermind :cgrin:
And I am told before I started using that opium that I will become more stronger, faster, but will get more insane... But hey, i did not know because I CHOSED IT to ignore that fact. Same as Illidan exactly knew what demons are and what fel powers is. In fact he was searching for it.
Unless you can prove me that veteran with 10 000 years old and had war with demons before did not know still what is demonic power and what price was. But he was searching for that power anyway. Maybe he was dumb, but still....

Kil'jaeden is not just any demon. The idea was that probably Illidan was dreaming of overpowering even the Great One.
Oh yea! great argument. You know what I dream all :cgrin:
And what is reality. Dream is one thing ,reality another. And the fact that he dreamed that can replace leader of demons and burning legion is insane. You must be insane to even think of that. Arrogant and uncontrollable. That proves me even more about demonic powers, what they do to mind.

Well, you can see God, theoretically in scriptures, depictions, churces and such.
You can't see him. I can't. Nobody can. They believe that they see. But believing is one thing, fact is another.
Now again, do you see nether Dragons there in game or we all believe to see them? Sorry, but this logic will get you nowhere :cgrin:

Anyways, by Warcraft III mind boggling lore, Illidan is a demon. You've won.

I guess, you win although to me it doesn't make sense. It's as if Illidan had a genetic sex change.
Sorry man. I did not mean to win over you or to defeat you.
You are better than me here mostly, you have more post counts, you have more knowledge about game perhaps, but for previous warcrafts for sure as I almost forgot about them. I only tend to know demonic stuff little better than you. You only made mistake because you did not realize so far after all warcrafts, WOW and even movie that demonic magic is not any magic you can just use whenever you wish, and that it completely change person, enhancing him any way and converting him. But making him uncontrollable, evil and violent.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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Conquerors? Destroyers? Just destructive beings for sake of destruction?
Well, yes and no. There's this chaos and order stuff going on in the Warcraft universe since RoC's manual. Demons are just on the chaotic side.
But what's funny is that for destructive beings they are quite organized, military and all. Also, in Legion they are even technologically advanced, lol! Actually even in TfT: Infernal Juggernauts/Machines and Chaos Towers.
But still I want to say, not matter what he ,,wants" to use demonic energy for, it takes its price.
Well, yes even Furion said: "at the cost of your soul".
BUT YOU CANNOT USE DEMONIC POWERS LIKE THAT. They always have side effect. Mutation, corruption, changing appearance (bigger in size than before, got eyes glowing in red or green/yellow color, horns and spikes around body, usually wild and uncontrollable), and after some time using it, there is no way back.
Oh man those drugs are really bad. Yeah, it's what they kinda failed. They made demonic magic a sort of uranium, carcinogenic. In Star Wars, the Dark or Light Sides are more of a way of life which of course change both Sith and Jedi but there's way "back" from either of them. I mean, I can understand that consuming the Skull of Gul'dan isn't eating candy because Gul'dan was obviously a monster, primarily psychologically. But demonology shouldn't change anyone past some minor appearance issues or at all if used non malefically since it's basically like using arcane which is the bread of the Kirin Tor.
Only one whose (seems temporarly) got back from demonic powers/fel energy is Grom Hellscream, but he is single case and he is hero, and yet again for him team of priestes, shamans and Jaina needed to work to clean him.
Judging by WoW, orcs never actually got 100% back but with time and generations they became able to control the rage and possibly their chaos blood diluted.
Grom wasn't cured. The orc still had the blood but the priests, shamans and whatnot helped the orc get a grip of the rage. Only after Mannoroth is killed, does Grom say that the blood has burned out from the orc's veins and that the curse has been lifted. Also, you can see the red eyes disappearing.
Fel is uncontrollable and is bad. Thast how demons actually mostly convert other races.
I disagree. Demons seem to be controlling fel/chaos quite well :D
Well, non-fel/chaos beings get stronger by enlightenment, training, that sort of thing. They don't leech power like demons.
Again, as stated above, this is not same.
Then, how can you become a demon if you're not a demon :D? It's like saying if you wear a helmet, you'll become a motorcycle rider but the helmet is jagged and hurts your head when you wear it.
See movie for example. I am not taking it as some lore or what, but fel energy is again (as many times before) shown what to do. Mediv said that fel power is something very bad, and is not place in Azeroth. But he used fel power himself. And not matter that he is the most powerful wizard, fel power corrupted it alone
Only, there is one huge exception. Medivh was corrupted before or at birth by Sargeras. This means, Medivh was born with a fel/chaos congenital illness, so to speak.
Just like Illidan, Medivh grow bigger, he got dark with green eyes, and was covered with spikes.
Let's not go into this comic book nonsense. Illidan grew in WoW. In Warcraft III, the character was the same, well, maybe a bit taller because of the hooves acting like high heels, lol.
Medivh did not grow. That's a lame WoW move they did in the movie.
Except Illidan is not that mad as medivh at that level.
Because, the context is different as mentioned above. If Illidan would have consumed the Eye of Sargeras or something like that, who knows? The demon hunter might have started laughing 24/7 while running up and down Mount Hyjal.
I really didn't like the movie that much. It had lots of bad decisions. It was rushed in that it ended up being a pile of too much confusion.
Illidan even drawn near naga and Blood Elves within it.
Hmm? You mean that Illidan was taken by the nage and elves afterwards? That isn't shown. It was mentioned afterwards in some official statement.
And this is what confuses me. But he is exception case much as dreadlord with devine armor. Also Cenarius is demogod. he is only one, perhaps demogods have chaos attacks.
I think either they would have had to make one more attack type to use it once for Cenarius or by Chaos they actually meant, power. Same for Divine armour. Super demons are not divine in the sense of holy, but in the sense of magnificently powerful.
Yes but we did not see what happened to them because those were last missions. In WOW they mutated int ofelbloodelves but I do not care about WOW.
Sure, but I don't like WoW lore that much either, so, I'd prefer they actually don't silly mutate. Maybe they can find a way to use fel/chaos as a catalyst for their hunger and remaining magic than to directly use it. Also, it is not mandatory for Kael and the blood elves to use fel/chaos but just magic whatever type it is. Illidan didn't know or care about other magic types that much because the character was a fel/chaos/demon junkie :D
Yeah, I am curious why is he so afraid of him. If Illidan is dead, he is dead anyway. What could Kil jaeden do to him after life?
Sadly, no. As Diablo put it in the second game: "Not even death can save you from me". Kil'jaeden killed Ner'zhul and reanimated the orc as a lich. Imagine that. Of course, Ner'zhul was unlucky to go to the Twisting Nether where demons are at 100% strength. With Illidan, if you consider the character a demon, dying will send the soul to the nether. If not, Kil'jaeden would find a way to get Illidan's body or soul one way or another, maybe even bribing the naga and/or blood elves or by sending dreadlord agents. There are many possibilities.
Yes, but before WOW we though he is dead.
To me it was more like a cliffhanger, really since Arthas didn't plunge Frostmorune into Illidan's body or chest that violently. And if you look at Illidan when the character is standing in supine position, even though there's much blood, you can see that the damaged part is the right chest, not the left where the heart is. Yeah, I know, you could say but Frostmourne is not just any blade. Sure, but Illidan is not just any random dude off the street either.
Even if he wanted to beg for life he was unable to because he could not even move.
True :D but I guess, Illidan might have hoped that Arthas actually killed the demon hunter increasing the chances Kil'jaeden would not get a grip on the character's soul. But that's just silly debate. Kil'jaeden is very serious about the deals the demon lord makes.
That fight is dumb however. It does not make sense. Illidan is over 10 000 years old, got fel empowerment and is superior to Arthas in any way. And he is bigger. Demonic night elf against human sized man. Plus he can turn into demonic form to get even stronger and bigger. There is only one explanation that at very end Lich King restored and even gave Arthas almost all his powers, so Illidan did not have chance then. He cheated
Yeah, I had this debate on the Reforged forums recently.
Arthas did not cheat, I mean, maybe the death knight had more advantages in some ways. Remember, before, they were evenly matched or so it seemed.
However, Illidan was pressed/stressed by Kil'jaeden. The climate wasn't at all helping.
Arthas on the other hand had power drained because the Lich King's frozen prison was seeping it since Frostmourne was thrown out (lol). I really choose to think Ner'zhul only said that and wasn't 100% truthful.
Now, you'd say but Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'dan. Sure but Arthas got most or at least a great amount of Ner'zhul's remaining power. Arthas had little stress because as a Death Knight, emotions are really dampened and plus, the climate wasn't affecting undead at all. Also, Arthas wouldn't have returned if the Lich King didn't start draining power. Arthas was very fond of power, being arrogant and all.
So, had it been chance/luck or actual skill we will never know and it's not important. Storywise it matters that Illidan lost.
,,Why should I trust you anything you say to him little human?" Can you imagine it? Calling him little human, man who is equal to him in battle. 10 000 years old, powerful, skilled and yet again got equal to Arthas and yet mocks him ,,little human".
Well, Arthas was literally little in size compared to Illidan.
But Illidan was out of prison for a short time. I doubt the character could do proper training in darkness even with the shadow warrior technique. Probably, muscles were atrophied to some extent, hunger and all that. By the way, Illidan did not die of magic addiction. That's really strange. I guess the demon hunter meditated to control the urge but then, when the character was released from prison, the first thing to do was get drugs, lol and Arthas was a sort of provider.
Instead wait for Malfurion, he took action himself to prove something. Even if not corrupted before, he became after consuming it.
It's Illidan's character. Stupid is debatable when you're a junkie, lol. But yeah, arrogance, lack of self control (still don't know how Illidan managed 10k years in darkness, lol). The idea in the character's mind was, yeah, this time I'll consume demonic magic for the good of our people not because I'm addicted, lol, yea right.
es, I am lazy to take screenshots now. At end of mission when you kill Naga summoners, they capture Illidan. And Maiev sentenced him to death, and Malfurion told that he afraids that imprisonment wont be enough this time.
Strange. Illidan says that thinking of spending another 10k years in the prison of that woman would be unbearable or something like that in the Outland mission where you have to free the character from that cage wagon.
Yeah, true. But Furion was really mad because Tyrande was allegedly dead. However, Maiev indeed said the execution would be done.
Also, many lines seem to be missing in this chapter. The numbers are not all subsequent.
Oh yes, you forgot also line of Furion at end of mission ,,What have you done with my brother you faul demon?"
Yeah but without Illidan's reply, we don't know that Illidan feels like a demon.
Then Illidan did not beg for life but tried to justify himself just moment before Maiev killed him
Yeah, that was the ace Illidan knew it could be used but helping Tyrande wasn't for this. It was actually because the character felt like it. You can sense that in the way the voice actor talks.
I think it is because all heroes because of balance had normal attack. Grom Hellscream is exception because he is meant to kill Cenarius and Mannorth!
Sure but all orcs get Chaos attack. It's also to show how powerful demon blood makes them.
Ah yes I forgot that. That too. But also Malfurion at end when called him ,,foul demon"
But didn't know it was actually Illidan until Illidan revealed it :D
Ilidan should not even burn that fishing villages.
I don't remember. Was Illidan attacking anything there? Let's put it this way. You need help, you find it but it's not from very nice people, it happens to be from exiled former highborne who also happened to have been mutated into ugly creatures. Illidan could only do so much to still have the naga's support.
They even burned down ships and those villages to prevent them creating ships so they can be followed across sea. This is literally paranoia. He would not do that perhaps if he was not night elf demon.
Well, no. That was the way to go if you didn't want to be followed. Illidan knew Maiev well and what the warden was capable of and that possibly Maiev was even more nuts than Illidan. That warden is like a magic bullet forever trying to hit you.
He sided with Satyrs! Corrupted night elves!
Yeah... but only briefly. I guess they were mercenaries but I didn't understand their zeal then.
Although Malfurion were harsh and strict towards his own brother, when he had right to take action against him, he did not. Perhaps he did not know that yet.
Besides that Illidan is Furion's brother. Basically what softened Furion was the fact that Illidan helped get Tyrande saved. Even Tyrande got a soft spot afterwards and told Maiev that Illidan's crimes were absolved, lol, Tyrande who broke in the Barrow Deeps to release Illidan, killing countless night elves and stuff. I never understood how they missed this part. I guess because Tyrande was a priestess that gave the character power abuse? But even so Maiev doesn't say absolutely anything to Tyrande about it. Illidan is far more important as if Maiev is in love with Illidan or something.
I mean sure Tyrande could have been acquitted by Furion but what about the Watchers and those druids there (what were these doing there anyway, lol)? But even so, it would have been hypocrisy not to also set Illidan free. So, I don't see why only Illidan had to be hunted or accused and Tyrande could go free.
Hey where did you get those informations? In Manual? Where is this?
In the manual yes.
Warcraft original lore | HIVE
in this second picture here is army of Dreadlords (there are more in left side which are not here in this moment) passing gates! Except few Wizard heroes in Dalaran, you do not see anywhere mass number of heroes. And few Paladins overally. Those Dreadlords are just for one gate and just at one place.
That's from an interlude. I don't think it shows the current RoC events but some history about other demon invasions.
Oh yeah, I think in Gates of Abyss, when Illidan closes gates, they are coming from there
Well duh, they come from the Nether :p
I also said that. But I said that non demon cannot use demonic power without becomming one, or demon type.
It's not clear if everybody ultimately becomes a demon but more like corrupted. I guess, Illidan took a really high dose of coc- ahem, fel/chaos magic. So did Gul'dan.
Oh, holy light is not working in Outland because they are alive! Use Paladin and test holy light against demon!It will work only against Doom Guard and Fel beast.
Yeah, I mentioned that some demons are marked as undead and some are not even in melee.
From my point of view anything that's unholy should be badly affected by Holy Light but not necessarily aided by Death Coil.
No, I did not say that. it is said already that each time someone of them fails in battle, he immediatelly raises as Undead. But they are raised as skeletons or such. The yare not that powerful, just masses with easy units. Unlike demons in outland, they mass units you with high powered units.
Of course but demons still use numbers in their invasions, not just mere power.
That is true. But still in ROC they did not show Outland with those vast forces.
They weren't in the story :p Anyways, Magtheridon was too fat to even try moving from the Black Citadel throne room and it did not look like the pit lord was interested in conquering Azeroth at all.
But you constantly keep arguing that demons are same as other units. yes, sure. Footman, militia and other weaklings against those all.
Compared to those, demons are indeed tougher but compared to the general populations of Azeroth (including golems, dragons etc.), not so much.
If Illidan did not stop them they would success.
Debatable :D but yeah that was the point of the story and arch of the character.
You see, Felwood corruption is permanent. So even demons got cleared from Ashenvalle, corruption is still in felwood and some demons are there.
Well, Furion doesn't know exactly. It's a high probability thing. It's like radiation. But ultimately if demons are kept out of Felwood properly, then over time the forest might heal for sure after Nordrassil's roots grow bigger.
Grom's eyes started to glow red, he was about to turn again.
Actually, I think they were red since the beginning of the film but you can't see it properly because of the low quality. I might be mistaken though and it could be the fact that he got angry because Thrall was wounded that made Grom's eyes red again.
Man, watched this movie two times now and I gotta say how realistic it feels in this fantasy setting. No stupid high fantasy moves and magic. Thrall gets unconscious because of the shock wave from Mannoroth's blade hitting the ground, throwing the orc into the cliff wall. Awesome.
Thrall did not even hurt Mannorth.
Actually, Mannoroth's left wing was perforated by Orgrim's hammer which seemed to have vanished by the way, lol.
Even Archimonde complains in Twilight of the Gods that Thrall actually hurt the eredar with that Chain Lightning. But yeah, Mannoroth had double protection :D, the wing and the shield.
That Mannorth is far from weak. So, technically one orc killed him, empowered with fel and sacrificed himself.
Yeah, definitely. Mannoroth was not little Timmy. Problem is that I don't think Grom could have killed Mannoroth without also dying. The Blademaster wasn't hit by Mannoroth's weapon but burnt by the fel/chaos fire that came out of the demon when it died and exploded.
he has enormous
butt. Yeah. I know. I'm joking but also, that's gameplay. It would have been boring if you could have only used Illidan unless there would have been some sort of duel which of course could not have been since neither Illidan nor Magtheridon would have risked honour on the adversary's tricks.
Everyone is at same side except Akama's tribe of Draenei which fought for generations and almost got eradicated.
It's a miracle they survived and still lived so close to the enemy. They should have been totally annihilated as per Warcraft II's manual. But I guess they developed permanent invisibility and fooled the orcs ha-ha :D
But we know that mighty Illidan got scared to death of him, that much that he is only one who got in Outland to fight demons just ot escape him :cgrin:
have you seen his size? He covers whole screen hahaha
That size was for intimidation. In the scene where Illidan talks to the demon in the forest, K'j isn't as big. Also, not even Archimonde covered the screen ingame but yeah, in the end film the eredar was almost as big as the World Tree.
Well, I meant, who knows, maybe Ner'thas could defeat Kil'jaeden 1v1.
But on tree of life he got temporarly weak that 1000 specially designed wisps can overpower him. yet again tree of life is destroyed. Night elves are mortal now!
Those were 10k year old angry bois!
Mortal, well, at least until the tree grows back, lol. Greedy bastards! How much do they want to live? Also, how come they didn't overpopulate the world yet?
And aircraft and naval and heavy tank units and siege and heavy spellcasters. And tons of heroes as seen in that screenshot.
Actually, orcs have ships and there are no aircraft :D
And Murlocs got converted into Murguls
Ehm what? No. I think Mur'guls are just another related family to Murlocs. Also, it was the energies of the Well of Eternity that turned the highborne to naga. Well, it was an Old God if you want to consider WoW...
No they are. I think they predates most races on planet.
They are part of the Old Gods family but they are not demons. They however from what I understood from the manual use chaotic energy but note that the elementals worshiped them.
They lack air units, siege units, defenses, and naval units at all.
Sure but Faceless and Unbroken were just a minor thing in the story. That's why we don't get to see more of their arsenal. Plus, they are locked beneath the earth.
DO you know how many types have cripple, one of the most powerful abilities? 3! nether Dragons, Doom Guards and Fel Orc Warloc!
Yeah, yeah. :D At least Dragon Turtles have Devour. Yeah, yeah, max level 5 to be cast on, no?
Sure, Couatls can dispel magic, but Sucusbbus has silence! And charm! They can convert any of Naga units (except Royal Guard). And they have many other abilities to throw at Naga.
Ha-ha but Couals take only 2 food and are really strong with full upgrades. Demons don't have upgrade slots and require lost of food :D
And Hydras are being used there by demons :cgrn: named doombeasts!
Yeah, lol. What are hydras doing in Outland anyway? Is there a circus going on, Magtheridon wanted to see?
Oh, and there is Fel Orc beastmaster (holy light)
Holy Light!? Anyways, doesn't one of the succubi have Death Coil which works on Doom Guards, at least? Also, Bloodfiends or whatchamacallit have Vampiric Aura.
No, I meant on Fel Orc Ships
Meh, Crushing Waves and Dragon Turtles break them to smithereens.
read somewhere that revenants were once fallen warriors or such, but I am tired now, I cant search for that.
That's not what the manual says:
Revenants are hateful undead creatures who outside the domain of Ner’zhul’s control. Bonded to base elemental spirits, these phantom creatures live only to rage and use their powers for destruction.
And ask Blizzard why is that. Same as night elf tactic. They corrupt then invade. in ROC there is no Outland, perhaps they introduct demonic army in Outland. They wanted to make them playable race so they scrapped it and adapted it to Undeads in ROC.
I think TfT came with retcons they didn't think of doing RoC.
Archimonde clearly said that Mannorth is his and that they will watch Orcs and wait.
True.
Mannorth said that he wanted to face Cenarius in kombat directly, but he is crafty and rarey goes to open. So technically its not my fault that I want to fight you directly, and you are waiting in trees and constanty avoiding me.
You're right and Mannoroth could not get exposed before Cenarius was dead otherwise the plan would have been put to risk and the orcs could have possibly turned on the demon.
Remember Maiev also ,,Naga. Many craven races have tempted our wrath for centuries. None have survived"
Ha-ha, Maiev agrees that demons are cowards :D at least.
In fact he was searching for it
I think there are laws in some countries that can actually save you from murder penalty lol if you prove that you were drugged and stuff.
And what is reality. Dream is one thing ,reality another.
Yeah but dreamland is a lower plane of existence, hierarchically. If you die in "reality" you also die in the dream. It's like shutting the PC down killing your game or plugging the internet cable out resulting in instant disconnect.
And the fact that he dreamed that can replace leader of demons and burning legion is insane.
One has the right to dream, no? :D Maybe Illidan will succeed, at least in fan fiction?
Actually they made the character kind of do in WoW: Legion. Guess, my idea isn't original anymore, lol. As if anything is.
Arrogant and uncontrollable. That proves me even more about demonic powers, what they do to mind.
Nah. Arthas also didn't know the proper place, not even being king yet and ordering Uther, who was Arthas' superior, lol. Arthas got pretty far, well, except that it had to mean "losing" the soul.
Now again, do you see nether Dragons there in game or we all believe to see them? Sorry, but this logic will get you nowhere :cgrin:
We see them but we don't know if they are demons. That was my analogy.
Sorry man. I did not mean to win over you or to defeat you.
But it's true, lol. I accept my defeat.
That also includes demons being the strongest.
You are my Kil'jaeden, :D I am your Illidan :D
You are better than me here mostly
At posting spam, lol.
you have more post counts, you have more knowledge
I have more intestinal issues, perhaps.
You only made mistake because you did not realize so far after all warcrafts, WOW and even movie that demonic magic is not any magic you can just use whenever you wish, and that it completely change person, enhancing him any way and converting him. But making him uncontrollable, evil and violent.
Imagine Illidan getting violent with Tyrande.
I daresay demon hunters have better control over them, at least in certain situations.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd,


Good night!
 
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Well, yes and no. There's this chaos and order stuff going on in the Warcraft universe since RoC's manual. Demons are just on the chaotic side.
But what's funny is that for destructive beings they are quite organized, military and all. Also, in Legion they are even technologically advanced, lol! Actually even in TfT: Infernal Juggernauts/Machines and Chaos Towers.
They are organized becausethey have leaders. Satyrs and fel Orcs also. But they are organized for better destruction! Again destructive side, as it is better to get organized than act violently. The yare mindless beasts you know. Chaos can affect simpler beasts and make them more mindless, but Dreadlords, Eredars and so on are intelligent! Highly intelligent, and they remains this! However they are using this intelligency to make plans for destruction.

Oh man those drugs are really bad. Yeah, it's what they kinda failed. They made demonic magic a sort of uranium, carcinogenic. In Star Wars, the Dark or Light Sides are more of a way of life which of course change both Sith and Jedi but there's way "back" from either of them. I mean, I can understand that consuming the Skull of Gul'dan isn't eating candy because Gul'dan was obviously a monster, primarily psychologically. But demonology shouldn't change anyone past some minor appearance issues or at all if used non malefically since it's basically like using arcane which is the bread of the Kirin Tor.
Well I agree with you, it should be different, but I was just explain you how was it finally made.

I disagree. Demons seem to be controlling fel/chaos quite well
As explained above, they are demons. They are not controlling it in meaning that they have full control. They only are being ,,smart" how as best as possible they can invade someone. They are still destructive and again! The yare demons, they are born like that. And many new races are fresh in coruption thus cannot control themselves. Undeads such Ghoul, Skeletons and such are also simple. Abomination also, they just obey command which is usually to destroy something, and they do it gladly.

Well, non-fel/chaos beings get stronger by enlightenment, training, that sort of thing. They don't leech power like demons.
I do not question that. basically any race does that. But demons aside from that are fel empowered. Many units are also trained, muslces and such (beside some fat dreadlords and pit lords).
Then, how can you become a demon if you're not a demon :D? It's like saying if you wear a helmet, you'll become a motorcycle rider but the helmet is jagged and hurts your head when you wear it.
Oh Ok. I guess I hsould explain this better.
There are demons, like you explained before, sentence to one global meaning, organization etc etc.... as collection of various races but which are similiar in behaviors, chaos empowerment etc etc... So, concretly in Outland/Twisting Nether. For them it is like for us, it is normal daily. But there are races for example Orcs. They got turned into Fel Orcs (bigger, stronger, red skin etc...). obviosly different from original race. They are Fel Orcs! But categorized under demons too! Demon category/Race, Fel Orcs, natherizm, Voids, Pitlord, Nether Dragons etc etc.... as subrace. Thas how they become demons. Satyrs too, Demon Hunters as another lets say subrace too. They are demonic beings! But everything is for them as for demons. They there live together, work, battle etc... as single army as single race. Except those created races are created with purpose, not just to increase numbers, but to spread chaos, kill original race as much they can or convert it and distract for greater plans such as invasion. So basically this is what is being done: Humans/Elves turned into Undeads. Orcs Into Fel Orcs, Night Elves into Satyr/Corrupted Night elves alongside with Ancients... SO, if yo uare nto demon yo ucan become one if you are affected by demonic energies or drink blood from pit lord, or that blood form fountains in Outland anyway.But yo uare going to turn into some creature usual to your race. Yo ud onot turn into doom guard or dreadlord, but something else. New usually ,depending on race.
Only, there is one huge exception. Medivh was corrupted before or at birth by Sargeras. This means, Medivh was born with a fel/chaos congenital illness, so to speak.
I cannot remember that in movie, but maybe yo uare right.

Let's not go into this comic book nonsense. Illidan grew in WoW. In Warcraft III, the character was the same, well, maybe a bit taller because of the hooves acting like high heels, lol.
Medivh did not grow. That's a lame WoW move they did in the movie.
About movie maybe yo uare right, but man, sorry I need to correct you. Just checked
wc3scr13.jpg

he seems little bigger than left one. But just checked in editor. Fel Grunt and Raider's size is 1.20! So they are 20% bigger obviosly. Others are not touched, but I did not check, maybe their strenght is same, jsut turned into chaos. Peon, Warlock and Kodo Rider.
Because, the context is different as mentioned above. If Illidan would have consumed the Eye of Sargeras or something like that, who knows? The demon hunter might have started laughing 24/7 while running up and down Mount Hyjal.
I really didn't like the movie that much. It had lots of bad decisions. It was rushed in that it ended up being a pile of too much confusion.
IOK I give you that too, but Fel definitively corrupts users that is what I wanted to say.

Hmm? You mean that Illidan was taken by the nage and elves afterwards? That isn't shown. It was mentioned afterwards in some official statement.
No, I meant he made both Naga and Blood elves to follow his course, dragging their destinies with him. ANd later Draenei although they remained in Outland, they aren't in Icecrown Glacier perhaprs to oversee Outland.
Sadly, no. As Diablo put it in the second game: "Not even death can save you from me". Kil'jaeden killed Ner'zhul and reanimated the orc as a lich. Imagine that. Of course, Ner'zhul was unlucky to go to the Twisting Nether where demons are at 100% strength. With Illidan, if you consider the character a demon, dying will send the soul to the nether. If not, Kil'jaeden would find a way to get Illidan's body or soul one way or another, maybe even bribing the naga and/or blood elves or by sending dreadlord agents. There are many possibilities.
Well that is really questionable, like yo usaid lot of possibilities, but you have point.
Yeah but without Illidan's reply, we don't know that Illidan feels like a demon.
he did reply ,,it is I furion, this is what I have become". he did not deny that he is demon, in fact he said to dreadlord before that he is one if his kind. And Furion as Druid can smell/detect demon regardless if he recognize brother or not.
But didn't know it was actually Illidan until Illidan revealed it
This is even worse not to be biased. he recognized demon, no matter whose was it. But what is now. And Arthas, and tooltips. Obviosly demon. But as I stated, half night elf half demon. That applies to demon hunters only.
Sure but all orcs get Chaos attack. It's also to show how powerful demon blood makes them.
Yes, but weirdly not everyone. Chaos Blademaster uses hero attacks. As well that mathog/Orc warchief. Also that arena hero Beastmaster has such hero attack.
I don't remember. Was Illidan attacking anything there? Let's put it this way. You need help, you find it but it's not from very nice people, it happens to be from exiled former highborne who also happened to have been mutated into ugly creatures. Illidan could only do so much to still have the naga's support.

Yeah... but only briefly. I guess they were mercenaries but I didn't understand their zeal then.
Yes you need help, they burned village, you side with demons briefly... Everything is briefly because he is in only one mission at this place. We do not know for how long Satyrs are working for him. If you have 2 missions, one they are with him second not, then we can agree that this is temporarly. But definitively they were with him, slowing down night elves.

That warden is like a magic bullet forever trying to hit you.
Oh yes, she is annoying! Malfurion said that she is bound to hunt forever.

In the manual yes.
Warcraft original lore | HIVE
But is there manual for Frozen throne?

That's from an interlude. I don't think it shows the current RoC events but some history about other demon invasions.
But still shows their ability to throw massive numbers of Dreadlords just as they were ordinary units, not heroes.
Well duh, they come from the Nether
I think that too, although it was never clearly explained I think.
It's not clear if everybody ultimately becomes a demon but more like corrupted. I guess, Illidan took a really high dose of coc- ahem, fel/chaos magic. So did Gul'dan.
Well, in post above I tried to explain this more clearly.
Yeah, I mentioned that some demons are marked as undead and some are not even in melee.
From my point of view anything that's unholy should be badly affected by Holy Light but not necessarily aided by Death Coil.
I agree totally! They should make all demons like unholly! So holy light should work against them as death coil should heal them.
Of course but demons still use numbers in their invasions, not just mere power.
yes I also said that. I was just explaining that unlike other races which uses numbers but of weaker units, they use number of powerful units.
They weren't in the story :p Anyways, Magtheridon was too fat to even try moving from the Black Citadel throne room and it did not look like the pit lord was interested in conquering Azeroth at all.
Well he was ordered to stay here in command of Outland. He has title Lord of Outland for reason. Burning legion sent him here and he canot move from Outland even if he wishes. Now, this is another thing that he became uncompetent over years as he did not have enemies to test and such. He underestimated enemies and that costed him. He was too lazy that did not want to exterminate Draeneis. But Draenei got help for once and it became problem for him.
Compared to those, demons are indeed tougher but compared to the general populations of Azeroth (including golems, dragons etc.), not so much.
Oh! But demons have Infernals as golems. They have nether Dragons and even red dragons. But yes, I did not compare them to whole planet, just to races that they are more powerful of races, not all of whem from whole world combined. But separately, races from Lordean, from Ashenvalle, Barrens, Sunken Ruins, Northernd... However, Those in both Suknen RUins and Northernd especially in Icecronw glacier are very problematic almost as demons in Outland. So, those are very powerful too. Even Ashenvalle is problematic itself.
I was about to write ,,review" of those places what should one face there if go there.
Debatable :D but yeah that was the point of the story and arch of the character.
It is not debatable at all. Akama said that the yare being hunted for generations. If not Illidan and others, soon they would get destroyed. Slowly but for sure.
Well, Furion doesn't know exactly. It's a high probability thing. It's like radiation. But ultimately if demons are kept out of Felwood properly, then over time the forest might heal for sure after Nordrassil's roots grow bigger.
Well, he is druid, one of greatest (since Cenarius is dead at moment). he is bond to nature and feelwood is part of their nature. But at least he is sure that it will not be in distinct future.
But yeah, Mannoroth had double protection :D, the wing and the shield.
And his thick body to some extend. However it could be stabbed and broken of course.
Yeah, definitely. Mannoroth was not little Timmy. Problem is that I don't think Grom could have killed Mannoroth without also dying. The Blademaster wasn't hit by Mannoroth's weapon but burnt by the fel/chaos fire that came out of the demon when it died and exploded.
Oh perhaps he could hit him from distance, but then he would risk same as Thrall did. if he missed they both would die. So he had to be sure that weapon is in his hands, that he has another chance from close. But even massive, that pitlord proved to be somewhat agile.
unless there would have been some sort of duel which of course could not have been since neither Illidan nor Magtheridon would have risked honour on the adversary's tricks.
I need to test once this.
It's a miracle they survived and still lived so close to the enemy. They should have been totally annihilated as per Warcraft II's manual. But I guess they developed permanent invisibility and fooled the orcs ha-ha
Yeah! And they did not bother to develop stealth detection systems like they did in Ashenvalle. Remember that Tyrande fooled doom guards, but later archers said ,,be warry Priestes. Doom Guards commands shades shich can detect us". Then Doom Guard mocked them ,,silly night elf, you cannot hide from us". Also in Barrens with corrupted grom, Doom Guards and fel beasts had true sight developed!!! yeah I was surprised myself. Magtheridon only has some detectors near him. However, even with invisibility, Draenei would lost because demons are usulally in groups. You saw them fighting against fel orcs. Each time they attack invisible, they got smashed by them! Logically ,tehy arevisible then during attacks. So, invisibility helps only in running away.
Mortal, well, at least until the tree grows back, lol.
Well I do not know that but correct me. I cant remember if immortality can be given again. Tyrande asked him if he realizes that wothout tree they would age same as mortals do. Furion said that they have lived long enough. They did not say anything baout regrow and regaining this ability. Maybe it is in manual.
Greedy bastards! How much do they want to live? Also, how come they didn't overpopulate the world yet?
haha furion at least was not bothered by it. he is only not greedy. They did not overpopulate because they live with nature, so they have some control perhaps.
Ehm what? No. I think Mur'guls are just another related family to Murlocs. Also, it was the energies of the Well of Eternity that turned the highborne to naga. Well, it was an Old God if you want to consider WoW...
I do not know man. maybe I am wrong, we need to check it.
They are part of the Old Gods family but they are not demons. They however from what I understood from the manual use chaotic energy but note that the elementals worshiped them.
I did not say that they are demons. I said that they are almost same powerful as demons.
Sure but Faceless and Unbroken were just a minor thing in the story. That's why we don't get to see more of their arsenal. Plus, they are locked beneath the earth.
Minor things but with cool magic! That Forgotten one has charm too! Level 8 one has silence and mana shield. Level 10 has sleep and animate dead, yeah they are tough. SImilar to demons in power, but obviosly, lacking some stuff.
Ha-ha but Couals take only 2 food and are really strong with full upgrades. Demons don't have upgrade slots and require lost of food
Dont get too overconfident :cgrin: in that mission those spawned demons do not take food too! I cannot check it now but I think they also take 1 or 2 food :cgrin:
Yeah, lol. What are hydras doing in Outland anyway? Is there a circus going on, Magtheridon wanted to see?
I do not know really. Perhaps they did not get models for them.
Holy Light!? Anyways, doesn't one of the succubi have Death Coil which works on Doom Guards, at least? Also, Bloodfiends or whatchamacallit have Vampiric Aura.
Yes. And yes those had vampiric auras. ABout Holy Light, that is weird! Fel Orc should not have that. he has holy light, wolves, Water elemental and infernal! So technically only one demonic hero which could heal.
Meh, Crushing Waves and Dragon Turtles break them to smithereens.
Yeah but dont forget that they can fight too! I wanted to say that being in Outland where as only tileset there is no water, aside from black citadel, you have heavy ships and hydras, that is impressive. Also there is no COuatl, as in citadel there aren no flying units, so no dispel magics when they cast cripple upon you!
Revenants are hateful undead creatures who outside the domain of Ner’zhul’s control. Bonded to base elemental spirits, these phantom creatures live only to rage and use their powers for destruction.
yes! Yo uare right. But still revenants are not elementals. It says that they are bonded to BASE ELEMENTAL spirit. Like bonded, attached to it. Definitively they are corrupted. And related to Undead and demonic corruption, do not forget that just n front of corrupted night elf base there is Death Revenant, which spawns undead s, ghosts and skeletons.... When you kill it, forest started to heal immediatelly. He wasalso responded to corrupting forest and attracting undeads there. Also Ice revenant gurding frostmourne. Fire revenants seeing with skeletons and other undeads. Jugnle revenants with Skeletal Orcs and necrolutes. They are not neutral at least alone, they are always with other evil or undead creatures.
I think TfT came with retcons they didn't think of doing RoC.
Yeah maybe

You're right and Mannoroth could not get exposed before Cenarius was dead otherwise the plan would have been put to risk and the orcs could have possibly turned on the demon.
Oh yes, Cenarius was surprised when saw Fel Orcs instead of regular ones ,,So, Demons did their job well" pointing at them turning into Fel orcs.
Ha-ha, Maiev agrees that demons are cowards :D at least.
haha and where is Maiev then during invasion? She is not present, she is coward too hahahahahaha!
Yeah but dreamland is a lower plane of existence, hierarchically. If you die in "reality" you also die in the dream. It's like shutting the PC down killing your game or plugging the internet cable out resulting in instant disconnect.
AHAHAHAAHAH what logic! you rock man!

One has the right to dream, no? :D Maybe Illidan will succeed, at least in fan fiction?
yeah yeah haha

Nah. Arthas also didn't know the proper place, not even being king yet and ordering Uther, who was Arthas' superior, lol. Arthas got pretty far, well, except that it had to mean "losing" the soul.
Ah do not mix or confuse those two. In human nature there are good or evil humans. And all kind. But demons are always evil. So bad human will become evil under demonic powers, but good will convert too. So this has nothing to do that Arthas is arrogant, he is simple as any human in reality, impulsive and spoiled prince. he is even worse as death knight.
We see them but we don't know if they are demons. That was my analogy.
But we do know. They are shadow dragons there (mutated hsark in reforged). They are present forlong time alongisde demons, so they must be demonic dragons. Even in Wow they are set together with demons directly under same category. Again, they are together in gates of Abyss, both guarding and spawning! They had to be converted since spending time and being affected with demonic energy.
At posting spam, lol.
nah yo uare good!
I daresay demon hunters have better control over them, at least in certain situations.
Well I agree on that, again they are specific type when corrupted. Like specific race.
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd,


Good night!
Good morning now! hahah
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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But they are organized for better destruction!
Organized chaos.
The yare demons, they are born like that.
So then that means that those corrupted by fel/chaos don't actually become demons anymore :p?
And many new races are fresh in coruption thus cannot control themselves. Undeads such Ghoul, Skeletons and such are also simple. Abomination also, they just obey command which is usually to destroy something, and they do it gladly.
Undead are a different thing. They are mindless, most of them.
SO, if yo uare nto demon yo ucan become one if you are affected by demonic energies or drink blood from pit lord, or that blood form fountains in Outland anyway.But yo uare going to turn into some creature usual to your race. Yo ud onot turn into doom guard or dreadlord, but something else. New usually ,depending on race.
Yeah but basically a demon slave, so no really a demon technically.
I cannot remember that in movie, but maybe yo uare right.
It's not in the movie. That's why the movie is so bad. It's in the Warcraft II manual.
About movie maybe yo uare right, but man, sorry I need to correct you. Just checked
Nice. The model is bigger because the scale value in the unit editor is 1 for both.
Peons have the same value. Chaos Grunts have +0.1. Raiders +0.2. The rest have the same scaling.
Wonder if this is actually the case of steroids or just an accident.
No, I meant he made both Naga and Blood elves to follow his course, dragging their destinies with him. ANd later Draenei although they remained in Outland, they aren't in Icecrown Glacier perhaprs to oversee Outland.
They followed Illidan by choice, not force. Draenei just wanted their lands back, not to leave Outland.
he did reply ,,it is I furion, this is what I have become". he did not deny that he is demon, in fact he said to dreadlord before that he is one if his kind. And Furion as Druid can smell/detect demon regardless if he recognize brother or not.
Yeah, that was my point. Without those other lines, it would not be clear.
Obviosly demon. But as I stated, half night elf half demon. That applies to demon hunters only.
Well, that's different than just demon :D How do you know it's exactly 50% though :D?
Also that arena hero Beastmaster has such hero attack.
Who?
But is there manual for Frozen throne?
Yeah but it doesn't say much at all, kind of useless really.
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne game manual
But still shows their ability to throw massive numbers of Dreadlords just as they were ordinary units, not heroes.
Yeah, the nether is filled with demons. It's their realm. It's silly really that it seems there are more demons than anything in the universe, lol. But I guess if all life able planets could gather in one place against the demons, who knows. Demons are lucky because they can travel through the nether which is the darkness in the universe that basically links all planets.
as death coil should heal them.
I would disagree Death Coil healing demons instead of hurting them or at least not doing anything to them. Demons are not undead.
He has title Lord of Outland for reason.
As much a reason as Illdan was self proclaimed as Lord of Outland.
Burning legion sent him here and he canot move from Outland even if he wishes.
It's not specified. Also, Magtheridon is surprised that Illidan came first thinking that it's a Burning Legion agent to replace or test the demon which kind of means MagT was pretty much enjoying a good life outside of BL direct orders.
He was too lazy that did not want to exterminate Draeneis. But Draenei got help for once and it became problem for him.
I think the Draenei were just lucky and invisible.
Even Ashenvalle is problematic itself.
But it has demon allies :p, satyrs.
It is not debatable at all. Akama said that the yare being hunted for generations. If not Illidan and others, soon they would get destroyed. Slowly but for sure.
I think you at least quoted me on something else than what you replied to. That discussion was about Tichondrius and Illidan.
I need to test once this.
How? It's a hypothesis related to how the gameplay and story could have been there.
Yeah! And they did not bother to develop stealth detection systems like they did in Ashenvalle. Remember that Tyrande fooled doom guards, but later archers said ,,be warry Priestes. Doom Guards commands shades shich can detect us". Then Doom Guard mocked them ,,silly night elf, you cannot hide from us".
That's because they had the Scourge.
Also in Barrens with corrupted grom, Doom Guards and fel beasts had true sight developed!!! yeah I was surprised myself.
That's just weird. There's no invisibility for you to use. The human faction is not user controlled. Maybe it's an oversight as they initially made the map playable with two bases so you could have used invisibility on Thrall, go to Grom and use the orb and run back fast?
However, even with invisibility, Draenei would lost because demons are usulally in groups. You saw them fighting against fel orcs. Each time they attack invisible, they got smashed by them! Logically ,tehy arevisible then during attacks. So, invisibility helps only in running away.
Sure, but they were living near the demon occupied lands instead of finding far away places. Maybe, the rest of the planet became too barren to live in?
Tyrande asked him if he realizes that wothout tree they would age same as mortals do.
Sure, but the tree is still there. It did not die but just got hurt. They'll age for a time and then probably get their immortality back once the tree fully heals, that if they don't die until then, lol.
haha furion at least was not bothered by it. he is only not greedy. They did not overpopulate because they live with nature, so they have some control perhaps.
Poor Furion live 10k years in a dream state anyway :D
Yes. And yes those had vampiric auras. ABout Holy Light, that is weird! Fel Orc should not have that. he has holy light, wolves, Water elemental and infernal! So technically only one demonic hero which could heal.
What chapter. I forgot. Or are you talking about the official Warchasers map hero? Because that's not related to Warcraft's story.
Also Ice revenant gurding frostmourne.
Actually this is a counter-example. These revenants were good guys, they protected against the Lich King. They were not hostile for no reason.
do not forget that just n front of corrupted night elf base there is Death Revenant, which spawns undead s, ghosts and skeletons.... When you kill it, forest started to heal immediatelly.
What chapter? Just opened up the one with the Skull of Gul'dan and there's no revenant there.
Good morning now! hahah
Good evening!

Also, lol we're discussing demons on a dragon themed thread.
 
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Organized chaos.
Yeah!

So then that means that those corrupted by fel/chaos don't actually become demons anymore :p?
They do. As Iexplained above, there are multiple types of demons and how to become one. Still its similar result after all.
Undead are a different thing. They are mindless, most of them.
yeah, but they are i ndirect touch with demons, as they created it and often you see dreadlords, infernal, doom guards and beasts with them. Byt yes, I was just talking about Outland demons. Still, there is that Abomination as epic unit in black citadel ,,Aaaah FRESH MEAT" which means that they drag sometimes even Undeads there. Oh item with flesh golem too.
Yeah but basically a demon slave, so no really a demon technically.
Thats depends of creation, intended creation, but yes. Even slaves, they are counted as demons. Sort of, subrace, whatever. Result is similar.

Nice. The model is bigger because the scale value in the unit editor is 1 for both.
Peons have the same value. Chaos Grunts have +0.1. Raiders +0.2. The rest have the same scaling.
Wonder if this is actually the case of steroids or just an accident.
Oh, just checked, CHaos Grom Hellscream is also 1.2. That proves that they only melee fighters made bigger. peons, warlocks and kodos are ranged units. Even that unused chaos orc range seems similar like them as he was supposed to be ranged unit. Blademaster is only same size.
They followed Illidan by choice, not force. Draenei just wanted their lands back, not to leave Outland.
yes choice. But sometimes you have forced choice because other choice is death. This is not ordinary thing ,,Hey I can chose which ice cream I wil buy". Blooed Elves are being executed, thanks to Naga, but yet again without them they would die against Undead. So they did not have choice but to follow. Naga is raised and awaken from seafloor thanks to Illidan. They did not have other options as well. I also read somewhere (but I cannot remember exactly and wont argue regarding this as this can be misinformation) that Azshara granted Illidan Naga.
Well, that's different than just demon :D How do you know it's exactly 50% though :D?
I do not know for how percent not does matter. he is demonic kind anyway.
Oh I found more references
new_bi10.jpg

I wont take more screenshots as this is pointless. it is confirmed many times over that he is demon anyway. In mission where they first met Kael they told him that they search for demon. The Tyrande asked him if they help blood elves that they will help them in turn to find demon they seek. he is not even refered as Illidan anymore. I completely forgot about that, but last night I played those missions haha.

Yeah but it doesn't say much at all, kind of useless really.
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne game manual
Oh sadly, there are no explanations for new stuff. That sucks!They introduced tons of units and we odnot know origins of them.

Yeah, the nether is filled with demons. It's their realm.
Yes of course. But in game you cannot play there, so basically Outland is their home and territory. With bonus that some units are present in Feelwood too.
Demons are lucky because they can travel through the nether which is the darkness in the universe that basically links all planets.
Yes that. And as I said before, they have no enemy there, and it is hard to get there, portals must be used.
I would disagree Death Coil healing demons instead of hurting them or at least not doing anything to them. Demons are not undead.
No, I said that according to my opinion Death COuld should be revamped to work on all ,,Unholy" creatures not just Undead.
It's not specified. Also, Magtheridon is surprised that Illidan came first thinking that it's a Burning Legion agent to replace or test the demon which kind of means MagT was pretty much enjoying a good life outside of BL direct orders.
But it is not specified that he is enjoying good life as he is lord of outland but has nothing to destroy there except Draenei. it is in pit lords nature that they destroy constantly not that they sit as kings and get relaxed. But yes, they are always generals of armies. Illidan explained that he become decadent because he has no enemies there. Not because he had rich life and do not care about Burning Legion.
See, same as Dreadlords. They were fanatics. They did not know that Legion is defeated because they stayed there loyally and wait and overseeing ,,rooting undead''. They did not like Undeads but they got their orders and they were fanatically loyal.
Same as Pit Lord, he got his orders and waits there.
Also, you said that he was surprised that Illidan is agent of Burning Legion and that he came to test him. Not to replace him, Illidan said ,,I came to replace you". But this is common because Burning Legion actually test their champions. Remember in first Arthas mission when he saw Thicodrius came to congratulate him ,,By killing your own father and delivering this land to Scourage, yo upassed your first test". So, it is common for them to test their servant, Pit Lord knew that.
How? It's a hypothesis related to how the gameplay and story could have been there.
I should copy exact his stats and abilities and paste against Illidan's ones. Maybe against two Illidans and see! I only cannot remember and check now if magtheridon had reincarnation as ability or as item. But anyway after you kill him finally, he raisen again for once haha.
That's just weird. There's no invisibility for you to use. The human faction is not user controlled. Maybe it's an oversight as they initially made the map playable with two bases so you could have used invisibility on Thrall, go to Grom and use the orb and run back fast?
Well, I think it is because of humans, maybe they somehow can rich there and use invisibility and try to sneak, or as you explained.... Maybe they planned something. But yes, all demons there have true sight. They can adapt to varius tactics.

Sure, but they were living near the demon occupied lands instead of finding far away places. Maybe, the rest of the planet became too barren to live in?
Exactly! If you remember when Kael and Naga passed portals, they said that htey marched for days and did not find sight of anyone. There are rocks floating around and heavy wind. No water, nothing, it was explained as desolated place. So Draenei could not even run there. There were not even trees to build structures.

What chapter. I forgot. Or are you talking about the official Warchasers map hero? Because that's not related to Warcraft's story.
Yes i was talking about that warchasers map. Maybe its not related, i do not know, but its their campaign map, maybe separated, but still. I found that fel orc there, it is described as Fel Orc, not something else. I am always using it in maps, but I replace holy light with healing wave.
Actually this is a counter-example. These revenants were good guys, they protected against the Lich King. They were not hostile for no reason.
Well, good gues are not sided and commanding Undeads. Those revenants are marked as Undead, and were together with skeletons and ghosts! And guess what, you fight and hunt undeads all. So yes, he was protecting it but I believe it means nothing. He got its orders to protect it which he does. it can be game, as killing necromancer, purgin city, hunting Malganis at end of world, jsut to annoy Arthas and pushing him deeper and deeper into corruption. SO even protecting sword is just part of trap. Everything was trap to make sure Arthas fell int oit, taking sword. Again, in Northrend are many races, any live race could guard it, not Undeads!
Also, that Revenant in Ashenvalle is with demons/undeads too. I saw them against Furion in SUnken Ruins too.
What chapter? Just opened up the one with the Skull of Gul'dan and there's no revenant there.
No, not there! Chapter Four Druids Arise. To the left, south left corner there is Death Revenant. he is in front of graveyard, surounded by ghosts, skeletons there arise, wovles and such... Fog is there constanlty. Once you kill it, forest regrows, fog gets removed and rain starts falling. After you pass him you get ot corrupted night elves, again with satyrs and skeletons.
There are elementals (water, flame...) but those are undead! Bound to elementals. They are not natural elementals. They are corrupted. The fact that something is undead means that it is not dead but is dead at same time. There is no natural undead anywhere, some dark magic must be involved. They in campaign later introducted them with undeads anyway. Each revenant in game was with dark side.

Good evening!

Also, lol we're discussing demons on a dragon themed thread.
But Dragons are part of demonsand undead (nether and frost wyrm), so it is kinda related haha
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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Still, there is that Abomination as epic unit in black citadel ,,Aaaah FRESH MEAT"
That's more of Diablo Easter egg.
yeah, but they are i ndirect touch with demons
Yeah they are a product of chaos magiks but that doesn't mean demonic necessarily. I mean, one could raise dead and not be a demon. I guess this could also be a motive why they changed chaos to fel in TfT.
But sometimes you have forced choice because other choice is death
The naga were not doomed and if Kael wanted to get out of the comfortable zone, they could have found a way. They did pretty fine under Garithos.
Blooed Elves are being executed, thanks to Naga, but yet again without them they would die against Undead. So they did not have choice but to follow.
Nah, they could have gone to the night elves and seek druidic aid for their addiction but they decided it was easier to go with the bad bois.
Naga is raised and awaken from seafloor thanks to Illidan. They did not have other options as well. I also read somewhere (but I cannot remember exactly and wont argue regarding this as this can be misinformation) that Azshara granted Illidan Naga.
Azshara is not mentioned as even living anymore or as dead. Fact is, Vashj actually pledged loyalty to Illidan, the character becoming the naga's lord.
Illidan called them. The naga were "waiting" there.
Lady Vashj: Why, my dear, we naga were once night elves! We were Azshara's chosen, the highborne, banished beneath the cruel seas when the Well of Eternity imploded around us! Cursed, transformed... we have waited ten thousand years to retake our rightful place in the world. And now, with Lord Illidan's help, we shall.
It's not specified if Azshara is still alive or at least in any condition to rule.

Use this for quote searching: Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne - Game Script - PC - By Apathetic Aardvark - GameFAQs
Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos - Game Script - PC - By Apathetic Aardvark - GameFAQs
I wont take more screenshots as this is pointless.
I already wrote you won. What more do you want me to do, put a sign in my signature about it?
Oh sadly, there are no explanations for new stuff. That sucks!They introduced tons of units and we odnot know origins of them.
Yeah, it's the start of the end of story manuals in Blizz games.
Yes of course. But in game you cannot play there, so basically Outland is their home and territory. With bonus that some units are present in Feelwood too.
I disagree. It's never mentioned that Outland/Draenor is the home of demons. It's just one of the many planets they've corrupted. There is no mention about the demons having any home planet. It's logical. They are born in the nether. That is their home.
No, I said that according to my opinion Death COuld should be revamped to work on all ,,Unholy" creatures not just Undead.
I know what you wrote. But I don't agree Death Coil healing demons because demons are not undead.
But this is common because Burning Legion actually test their champions. Remember in first Arthas mission when he saw Thicodrius came to congratulate him ,,By killing your own father and delivering this land to Scourage, yo upassed your first test". So, it is common for them to test their servant, Pit Lord knew that.
That's different. Arthas wasn't put to kill another demon as a test. But yeah, you're right, I guess.
Also, MagT acknowledged Illidan's power being vast
Magtheridon. I do not know you, stranger, but your power is vast. Are you an agent of the Legion? have you been sent here to test me?
I should copy exact his stats and abilities and paste against Illidan's ones. Maybe against two Illidans and see! I only cannot remember and check now if magtheridon had reincarnation as ability or as item. But anyway after you kill him finally, he raisen again for once haha.
Don't see that spell on the demon and no item for that either. But only Reign of Chaos is enough to ensure Illidan doesn't win. Actually even without it. Too many spells and items on, hehe. If there's enough room, maybe Illidan could use Metamorphosis and Mana Burn and try keeping the distance but with that RoC spell, I don't know...
Maybe they planned something. But yes, all demons there have true sight. They can adapt to varius tactics.
Or maybe they made sure you couldn't leave any Sentry Wards in their base for some reason.
There are rocks floating around and heavy wind. No water, nothing, it was explained as desolated place.
Wonder how naga fared without water and how night elves resisted without the Azerothian moon. It's a concept I'm trying to explore :D
Yes i was talking about that warchasers map. Maybe its not related, i do not know, but its their campaign map, maybe separated, but still. I found that fel orc there, it is described as Fel Orc, not something else. I am always using it in maps, but I replace holy light with healing wave.
Outside of that map, the unit has no spells, lol. It's not a hero. That map is not part of the campaign, it's an official custom game map.
Well, good gues are not sided and commanding Undeads. Those revenants are marked as Undead, and were together with skeletons and ghosts! And guess what, you fight and hunt undeads all.
What? No, revenants are not under the Lich King's control. They hate tLK. Those non-revenant undead were controlled by the revenants.
SO even protecting sword is just part of trap.
Not at all. The revenant boss even when dying (by the way, they made the entity sound like a human in pain, lol) tried to advise Arthas to turn back. The revenant's motives were clear and righteous, at least for their own cause. They were there to ensure tLK would not be released or become stronger.
I wonder who wrote the inscription on the sword's dais which Muradin read.
Everything was trap to make sure Arthas fell int oit, taking sword.
That's a conspiracy, lol. As mentioned above, no. The Lich King did not have powers over revenants for some reason and they happened to know about the sword being there and what it could do. They didn't know Arthas, they were there to stop anyone trying to get the sword. Trust me, those revenant bois were really nice.
Also, that Revenant in Ashenvalle is with demons/undeads too.
In the chapter before the one where you save Illidan, there's a revenant in a graveyard (lol, do night elves bury dead the same way as humans?) which was controlling some skeletons and ghosts but there were no demons there. Totally different things. But if you want to dissect it further, you could say that because the demons and the Scourge came to Kalimdor, that revenant and its undead awoken due to the corruption and whatnot but that didn't mean they were under Burning Legion control.
I saw them against Furion in SUnken Ruins too.
Under demon control? Many undead spirits everywhere. As you can see: Lightning Revenants, Death Revenants, Fire Revenants, Sea Revenants. They are not mere undead. I don't think you can compare them with the Diablo II skeletons: poison, fire, lightning, frost etc. skeletons. Those are mage skeletons, basically undead using elemental magic but revenants are undead elemental, not elemental undead. At least, it's how I understand it. Or maybe, they are just like the Diablo II skeletons judging by the RoC manual. It's confusing, really. Maybe, it's the elemental powers they use that keep them from Ner'zhul's sway but then Death Revenants are basically like undead undead, lol. What's the element there? Death is not an element in the traditional sense. So, that's why I think they are undead elementals and not elemental undead.
Once you kill it, forest regrows, fog gets removed and rain starts falling.
Sure but undead clearly bring death with them regardless if under demon control or otherwise.
There are elementals (water, flame...) but those are undead! Bound to elementals.
So, are we looking at some sort of hybrid of an elemental being fused with an undead being?
They are not natural elementals. They are corrupted. The fact that something is undead means that it is not dead but is dead at same time.
Ah, so they are actually corrupted elemental? But how can elementals be undead? Elementals don't live in the technical sense. It's like they're undead anyway but not the unholy type.
Undead means not being alive. Basically, robots are undead.
There is no natural undead anywhere, some dark magic must be involved.
True. Undeath is not a native state of existence, it's a transition. However, elementals are natively created the way they are.
But Dragons are part of demonsand undead (nether and frost wyrm), so it is kinda related haha
No, sorry. Flying fish are not related to demons xD
 
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The naga were not doomed
When exploding sunwell scene, Lady vash said they are ,,cursed and transformed". So their state is specific. But not natural, normal, like other races.
and if Kael wanted to get out of the comfortable zone, they could have found a way. They did pretty fine under Garithos.
I do not think that they did pretty fine because as soon time passes they felt hunger for magic. Remember moment before Vashj saves Kael, while still locked in cell he said ,,our hunger for magic will devour us"

Nah, they could have gone to the night elves and seek druidic aid for their addiction but they decided it was easier to go with the bad bois.
For some reason they did not. Maybe druidic magic is not enough and night elves were focused on battling Illidan, fixing Feelwood and bringing back chaos to line in Ashenvalle as result of demonic corruption. Byt yes, yo uare right, I think Furion could help them.
But we are talking about moment when they had to chose while in prison! Either dead or go take risk with demonic night elf. They would be killed very soon if go outside, yet again to came to night elves across sea. They did not have ships or anything. So yes, in that moment that did not literally had any choice. Garithos was somewhere above.
I already wrote you won. What more do you want me to do, put a sign in my signature about it?
Yes do it! I am joking... I wrote that this is pointless because we already discussed that, and further I will just waste both mine and your time. You will have to scroll more because of images and read them.
Yeah, it's the start of the end of story manuals in Blizz games.
really? They did not do any manual after that?
I disagree. It's never mentioned that Outland/Draenor is the home of demons. It's just one of the many planets they've corrupted. There is no mention about the demons having any home planet. It's logical. They are born in the nether. That is their home.
No, I did not meant that. I said in game currently because you cannot play at twisting nether or any planet they conquered. And because of lore they had to give their army some place to be. That is Outland. I was talking about Outland demons. Their more native place is Outland than Lordean, Barrens or Northrend, that is what I meant. Only full demons with Draenei are there.
Or maybe they made sure you couldn't leave any Sentry Wards in their base for some reason.
Good point too! However that is also strange because those units surround and are in front of Gromm which is at up right corner! Far from base. And they stand there and do nothing, so watch them or not whatever, they are same there. Bases are making army, attack.... So its more logical to put anti stealth detectors at bases as well...
Wonder how naga fared without water and how night elves resisted without the Azerothian moon. It's a concept I'm trying to explore
Hey, good question again! I wonder same, but I think that they could temporarly live, but still Outland is very dangrous to those types of beings. Water is in citadel and there is no that moon they are used too or even trees much.
What? No, revenants are not under the Lich King's control. They hate tLK. Those non-revenant undead were controlled by the revenants.
I know that they are not, Lich king does not control them according to manual. But another question is does only Lich King control Undeads or someone else too? Warlocks could control some too. Some were necromancers before.
Not at all. The revenant boss even when dying (by the way, they made the entity sound like a human in pain, lol) tried to advise Arthas to turn back. The revenant's motives were clear and righteous, at least for their own cause. They were there to ensure tLK would not be released or become stronger.
That's a conspiracy, lol. As mentioned above, no. The Lich King did not have powers over revenants for some reason and they happened to know about the sword being there and what it could do. They didn't know Arthas, they were there to stop anyone trying to get the sword. Trust me, those revenant bois were really nice.
Then maybe yo uare right. Except that they are nice boys. According to manual they are under constant rage and wild seek only to destroy.
I wonder who wrote the inscription on the sword's dais which Muradin read.
I wonder too! But sword is forged by Lich King himself. Also how did it get to that place is questionable.

In the chapter before the one where you save Illidan, there's a revenant in a graveyard (lol, do night elves bury dead the same way as humans?) which was controlling some skeletons and ghosts but there were no demons there. Totally different things. But if you want to dissect it further, you could say that because the demons and the Scourge came to Kalimdor, that revenant and its undead awoken due to the corruption and whatnot but that didn't mean they were under Burning Legion control.
You have point, but see there is problem with that. There is Undead base, then Revenant area right left, and above him is corrupted Night Elf base, again under Scourage. he cannot be in the middle of two if he is enemy of them!, yet again you must pass in that area fro A to B or vice versa. What I also believe according to this is regardless of who is against Undead or not, if affected by that corruption also becomes wild, or neutral towards them. Insame mission corruptin made those Fulborgs crazy, made Night Elf outpost corrupted Night Elves and that Revenant near them perhaps also got firther affected, so he is either at their side or ignores them at all. We laos never seen case revenants figthing Undeads either.
he cannot be awaken because he is located just before Druids of Tallon bases. Nobody there would allow Death Revenants or any undead creature to be in Ashenvalle yet again that close to Talon's base. he must come alongside Undeads. Also there is no revenants in Ashenvalle at all! No skeletons or ghosts! Just wolves but those got corrupted. SO, obviosly that he came alongside them.
Under demon control? Many undead spirits everywhere. As you can see: Lightning Revenants, Death Revenants, Fire Revenants, Sea Revenants. They are not mere undead. I don't think you can compare them with the Diablo II skeletons: poison, fire, lightning, frost etc. skeletons. Those are mage skeletons, basically undead using elemental magic but revenants are undead elemental, not elemental undead. At least, it's how I understand it. Or maybe, they are just like the Diablo II skeletons judging by the RoC manual. It's confusing, really. Maybe, it's the elemental powers they use that keep them from Ner'zhul's sway but then Death Revenants are basically like undead undead, lol. What's the element there? Death is not an element in the traditional sense. So, that's why I think they are undead elementals and not elemental undead.
Well death is not elemental, but that bothers me too. But there are ,,Death" ranks along Undeads, so perhaps those ones are somehow under their command or as above I explained, he was caused by that corruption. This is first time we met Death revenant at all. Like you said this is really confusing. But see, this is where manual is not linked with game, because after they wrote manual they could change some things.

Sure but undead clearly bring death with them regardless if under demon control or otherwise.
Yeah that is for sure I think so.

So, are we looking at some sort of hybrid of an elemental being fused with an undead being?
According to manual, yes. But still, they may planned one thing, and implemented another. They are very confusing.
Ah, so they are actually corrupted elemental? But how can elementals be undead? Elementals don't live in the technical sense. It's like they're undead anyway but not the unholy type.
Undead means not being alive. Basically, robots are undead.
Undead means ,,not dead" literally but still dead. Which means that he is alive regardless that he is dead, like ressurected. ut ressurected as vampire, zombie etc etc.. if you look for that word in real world. Elementals do not die, they got destroyed or something. But undead elemental seems corrupted elemental. They can be corrupted.
Robot is dead already.it is not dead actually, it is thing. Undead is term for something which was alive. Again, confusing for elemental. As they are not considered alive. But Holy light works for them even specially stated that it heals live and damages undead.

True. Undeath is not a native state of existence, it's a transition. However, elementals are natively created the way they are.
Exactly, what I meant. However I think that they are corrupted.

No, sorry. Flying fish are not related to demons xD
haha because you do not like them. That is personnal taste.
So you prefer shadow ones?
 

deepstrasz

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Messages
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When exploding sunwell scene, Lady vash said they are ,,cursed and transformed". So their state is specific. But not natural, normal, like other races.
Yeah but that doesn't mean they cannot live without Illidan :D They could just live in the Broken Isles for instance if they want to stay away from night elves or in south Kalimdor. Anywhere goes, really.
I do not think that they did pretty fine because as soon time passes they felt hunger for magic. Remember moment before Vashj saves Kael, while still locked in cell he said ,,our hunger for magic will devour us"
Yeah but still, there was some magic to be had here and there probably. Strange that the naga didn't accuse or mention such symptoms even before meeting Illidan. What source do they have since the Well of Eternity is no more, the Maelstrom?
But we are talking about moment when they had to chose while in prison! Either dead or go take risk with demonic night elf.
Sure but that was after they missed their better chance by asking the night elves for help.
Also, are the naga demonic? Sure, the highborne used arcane magic in the past but note that the Well of Eternity was made by the titans, promoters or order not chaos. So, when it exploded, the naga basked in that energy. I guess you could say the well was corrupted.
They did not have ships or anything.
Well, Kael and a few could have gone to Kalimdor first and get back to the remaining ones or just send the ships back to get them. Sure, it would've taken months but at least it was something good and less riskier than going with the junky street bois.
really? They did not do any manual after that?
From what I remember no, they only released some works but either on their site, as bonus material to buy but those did not come with the games like the manuals.
And because of lore they had to give their army some place to be. That is Outland.
Well, the main force of the demons was not in Outland. Kil'jaeden came from the nether to scare Illidan. In Draenor, it was a minor force.
I was talking about Outland demons. Their more native place is Outland than Lordean, Barrens or Northrend, that is what I meant. Only full demons with Draenei are there.
Well, I don't know if there are any native Outland demons except maybe for the fel/chaos orcs but they are not technically or totally native demons either since they weren't born like that, well, not all of them at least.
So its more logical to put anti stealth detectors at bases as well...
Yeah, that's why I think it might be an anti Invisibility spell leftover.
Hey, good question again! I wonder same, but I think that they could temporarly live, but still Outland is very dangrous to those types of beings. Water is in citadel
Yeah, and who knows if that water isn't corrupted, lol but maybe naga are used to that.
I guess there were some patches of water here and there otherwise the draenei and orcs would have died out by natural causes.
But another question is does only Lich King control Undeads or someone else too? Warlocks could control some too. Some were necromancers before.
What do you mean? Well, the Scourge was easily taken from tLK by Archimonde and probably Tichondrius and whoever was there. I don't know if tLK can steal your skeletons if you raise them as a necromancer. Probably yes. Depends on how strong you are but Sylvanas was not taken back in WoW which is kind of stupid really. tLK became even more powerful after merging with Arthas.
Necrolytes as of WcII manual were a type of Warlock. Gul'dan was both a warlock and a necrolyte.
Then maybe yo uare right. Except that they are nice boys. According to manual they are under constant rage and wild seek only to destroy.
Sure but that is their description. It does not mean all of them are the same. I mean, look at Illidan, the character did not become a satyr and satyrs did not become demon hunters or didn't get too look like Illidan in TfT. Also, Arthas was a paladin and? So, what? The character was arrogant and actually evil, even more so after becoming a Death Knight.
I wonder too! But sword is forged by Lich King himself. Also how did it get to that place is questionable.
It is not specified that it was made by tLK. What you can gather from the manual is that Kil'jaeden put Ner'zhul there with armour and all. In TfT tLK tells Arthas this in the last chapter:
The Lich King: The runeblade, Frostmourne, was once locked inside the Throne as well. I thrust it from the ice so that it would find its way to you... and then lead you to me. And so it has. For now we face a grave danger. My creator, the demonlord Kil'jaeden, sent his agents here to destroy me. If they should reach the Frozen Throne before you, all will be lost. The Scourge will be undone. Now hurry! I will grant you all the power I can spare.
Balnazzar says in a chapter when Sylvanas gets free will back:
Balnazzar: Though his runeblade, Frostmourne, carries powerful enchantments, Arthas' own powers will fade in time, it is inevitable.
You have point, but see there is problem with that. There is Undead base, then Revenant area right left, and above him is corrupted Night Elf base, again under Scourage. he cannot be in the middle of two if he is enemy of them!
Note that Warcraft maps are not depictions of real sized places, so it is quite probable that those undead in the graveyard are neutral especially if there's a Revenant with them. Maybe the revenant came and took control of the graveyard.
made Night Elf outpost corrupted Night Elves
I'm not sure those were corrupted on the spot. I think those are very old, maybe since the War of the Ancients.
Satyrs were once night elves who practiced the magical arts in the days before the War of the Ancients. These magically corrupted night elves, having given themselves over to the will of the Legion, became terribly cursed. Though they retained a portion of their magical power, their bodies were warped and twisted into those of beasts. Now the satyrs exist only to harry their hated night elf cousins and obey the will of the Legion – which they believe will one day return.
he cannot be awaken because he is located just before Druids of Tallon bases. Nobody there would allow Death Revenants or any undead creature to be in Ashenvalle yet again that close to Talon's base. he must come alongside Undeads. Also there is no revenants in Ashenvalle at all! No skeletons or ghosts! Just wolves but those got corrupted. SO, obviosly that he came alongside them.
But that base was temporary, no? Also, I don't know if we should judge by the monsters based on tilesets. Also, why couldn't the revenant come alone or without being under the Scourge or Burning Legion? It's a spirit anyway. Maybe it flew over the ocean or got dragged by the wind or even just went through the water or sea bed. Maybe it came with a ghost ship :D Possibilities seem endless.
This is first time we met Death revenant at all. Like you said this is really confusing. But see, this is where manual is not linked with game, because after they wrote manual they could change some things.
Well, technically that revenant is named the Guardian. It's the first time we see a revenant too (RoC Human campaign, last chapter). So, actually they got it wrong in melee :p But maybe Death doesn't necessarily mean it's double undead but that this revenant brings death. That's how strong it is. I don't know.
if you look for that word in real world. Elementals do not die, they got destroyed or something.
Yeah, they can be banished or calmed actually.
Undead is term for something which was alive.
Then Arthas only became unholy? Because the character did not die.
So you prefer shadow ones?
Yes. Those actually look netherly unlike flying fish.
Now, if you look deep into our oceans you might find more fitting fish for the nether than that ugly flying shark, lol.

EDIT:
OK, found a quote by Tichondrius who says Frostmourne was forged by Ner'zhul (don't know how, lol, I guess tLK used servants to do it but that's silly because the sword was thrown out of the ice prison; does that mean Ner'zhul can create matter with only the mind :D?). The sword could not have been made before Ner'zhul became a lich because the characters was an orc and had no time to do it in the Twisting Nether before Kil'jaeden captured the orc. It would be weird also because the Twisting Nether was something new, unexplored and obviously what forge or means to create that sword there and why would K'j put the orc in the ice prison with the sword too if Ner'zhul could not even defend with it, lol.
Then, even more so the revenants were making sure tLK wasn't getting any more power than it already had.

EDIT2:
By the way, Nordrassil grew from the lake Illidan corrupted with essence from the Well of Eternity.
Even if the dragon aspects helped grow and enchant the tree, it would have been prone to corruption. But I guess it was hard to get there since Archimonde required a whole invasion.
 
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Black dragons will always win. Fight me.

Also, currently, in the dragon thread.
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@Archian you mean that model is missing ingame and in editor at all?
I do not have Reforged so far, so I would not know. I found render of it, so he is option to be voted. And you did not vote either! See and find favorite dragon. Since you are king of demons (and mine) as Archimonde, I guess that you will chose nether Dragon as well!
It leads in votes anyway :cgrin:

@Venombite oh sorry. I forgot to reply you about those dragon whelps. They all look similar since they are small. But would still chose Nether dragon whelp.

@deepstrasz I will reply you later, you wont get away from demon :cgrin:

@Feng Shui , :cgrin:
 

deepstrasz

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Since you are king of demons (and mine) as Archimonde, I guess that you will chose nether Dragon as well!
Isn't that unfair?
I voted for the black dragon not just because I like black dragons and my favourite dragon was Deathwing in Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal, but because I think it looks better than the others. Taste, of course but less biased :D
 
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Yeah but that doesn't mean they cannot live without Illidan :D They could just live in the Broken Isles for instance if they want to stay away from night elves or in south Kalimdor. Anywhere goes, really.
No, that means that Illidan awaken them. They could not live before he used spell to awake them in intro cinematic. Now, they can live in Sunken Ruins, their natural region pretty fine. But they were not active before he awaken them that much.

Yeah but still, there was some magic to be had here and there probably. Strange that the naga didn't accuse or mention such symptoms even before meeting Illidan. What source do they have since the Well of Eternity is no more, the Maelstrom?
You also bring another interesting question. I do not know what sorce they used. But that Maelstrom is magical too as you pointed out. Literraly it is not explained.

Sure but that was after they missed their better chance by asking the night elves for help.
Yes. And thus they paid prize

Also, are the naga demonic?
Honestly I do not know. Maybe not, but they are definitively cursed and evil.

Sure, the highborne used arcane magic in the past but note that the Well of Eternity was made by the titans, promoters or order not chaos. So, when it exploded, the naga basked in that energy. I guess you could say the well was corrupted.
I do not know that thing with highborne that well from past, aside from what happened in Wc3. That is briefly explained there.
Well, Kael and a few could have gone to Kalimdor first and get back to the remaining ones or just send the ships back to get them. Sure, it would've taken months but at least it was something good and less riskier than going with the junky street bois.
They could not. If they have gone to Kalimdor, those blood elves would be lost. In fact night elves helped them to survive Undead with that caravan. if Kael abandoned them, they would be all dead soon. Even if he managed to get back with ships, Garithos would count it as trason and could cause them problems as they already pledged their service to failed allieance.

Well, the main force of the demons was not in Outland. Kil'jaeden came from the nether to scare Illidan. In Draenor, it was a minor force.
Well, I don't know if there are any native Outland demons except maybe for the fel/chaos orcs but they are not technically or totally native demons either since they weren't born like that, well, not all of them at least.
Yes. Those fel orcs are only native. They live in Draenor as Orcs, now they live as Fel Orcs. Byt they left. Illidan said that already that Magtheridon gathered survived orcs.
But still, you cannot play Twisting nether or any other planet aside from Outland, and demons are only located there in Wc3 where you can see them and play maps and campaigns with them. This is what I meant, not about their origins or where they are as majority. I meant as majority currently in all available tilesets/places where we know and have been seen.
Yeah, and who knows if that water isn't corrupted, lol but maybe naga are used to that.
You again raised good question.
I guess there were some patches of water here and there otherwise the draenei and orcs would have died out by natural causes.
Fel orcs perhaps cpuld not die that easily because of fel powers. They perhaps can survive longer. They drink blood and use those ofuntains they can see and other sources. Anyway, there is all needed in Black Citadel, as organized army they could get supplies daily. It is not problem for them, for Draenei it was problem actually.

Sure but that is their description. It does not mean all of them are the same. I mean, look at Illidan, the character did not become a satyr and satyrs did not become demon hunters or didn't get too look like Illidan in TfT. Also, Arthas was a paladin and? So, what? The character was arrogant and actually evil, even more so after becoming a Death Knight.
Again, there is difference when you as person get mad and when yo uare mad as whole at all, as your default behavior. Do not confuse regular human behaviors and stages with stages caused by some states such as undeath.

I'm not sure those were corrupted on the spot. I think those are very old, maybe since the War of the Ancients.
No, they are corrupted recenty unfortunately.
wc3scr14.jpg

wc3scr15.jpg


Note that Warcraft maps are not depictions of real sized places, so it is quite probable that those undead in the graveyard are neutral especially if there's a Revenant with them. Maybe the revenant came and took control of the graveyard.
Also, why couldn't the revenant come alone or without being under the Scourge or Burning Legion? It's a spirit anyway. Maybe it flew over the ocean or got dragged by the wind or even just went through the water or sea bed. Maybe it came with a ghost ship :D Possibilities seem endless.
Well, technically that revenant is named the Guardian. It's the first time we see a revenant too (RoC Human campaign, last chapter). So, actually they got it wrong in melee :p But maybe Death doesn't necessarily mean it's double undead but that this revenant brings death. That's how strong it is. I don't know.

deathr10.png

And when you click it says ,Death Revenant not Guardian. Also ,it is not only graveyard it is large part of forest. Also like she said ,,crused blight". He also created blight, which only Undead do.

Also, I don't know if we should judge by the monsters based on tilesets.

Not always, but it is unwritten rule as in reality that there are reasons why some creatures are bond to some places. For example, why is there constant snow in Northrend especially Icecrown Glacier? because it is cold at roof of the world. So there is cold obviosly, freezing. So, there are ice trolls which are blue, polar furbolgs which are white, blue dragons etc etc... so those creatures like i nreality adapted to their environment. Many uses cold magics. mamoths are there with giant fur, Polar bears and so on. Undead too since they are designed to take low temperatures specially. Barrens for example have creatures designed for hot sun, savannah and such. So their colors mostly is also orange, brown or similar to melt with environment. Bronze Dragons for example. Sunken Ruins since it is jungle and mostly islands have creatures developed to be amphibious mostly. Classical tropical part... Magical forest such Ashenvalle also has its own magical things of creatures, or at least temperate versions like regular furbolgs. Cityscape for example has Kobolds (similar to rats filled in cities haha), and logically underground since they are tunnelers mostly.
There are some creatures which are designed to be almost everywhere like Murlocs. They adapt easily. Rock Golems are often present in many Lordean similar tilesets, as being from rock, they are somewhat resistant, but they are not present in Kalimdor and Glacier for some reason.
Oh, you said before that you think urguls are distinct relatives of Murlocs.
I do not know if this is from WC3 or not, that is why I do not post these links, but here is explained Mur'gul
,,Some believe that these creatures were once murlocs, but were cursed and twisted by the powers of the Burning Legion. The mur'gul delight in capturing both humans and murlocs — torturing and then eating their victims." - I do not know where from that came.
But there are some ocassions that some monsters are in different areas, especially in campaign. I am just syaing that first thing what fells you in mind that each create mostly has its own place based on it's appereance, magics, behavior etc...

Then Arthas only became unholy? Because the character did not die.

You can die in many ways if magic is onvolved. He left alone in snow storm after killed malganis. he may fallen somewhere and awaken after that. Another time we see him with white hair and face as he was dead. But Undead can become in various wasy, mostly by death. However those are heroes, Arthas was champion, so it is designed for him to work differently. That does not matter really as heroes usually have different treatment.

Isn't that unfair?
I voted for the black dragon not just because I like black dragons and my favourite dragon was Deathwing in Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal, but because I think it looks better than the others. Taste, of course but less biased
Haha it is not unfair! Nether Dragons are wining regardless of those heretics like you if like shark looking or not :cgrin:
Imagine man! Outland beautiful sky, and new nether Dragon flying there towards you! Awesome scene
 

deepstrasz

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No, that means that Illidan awaken them. They could not live before he used spell to awake them in intro cinematic. Now, they can live in Sunken Ruins, their natural region pretty fine. But they were not active before he awaken them that much.
It's not said that they were awakened but called. They did fine underwater. They became lizardly fish. How do you think they have their weapons and skills if they just awoke?
They could not. If they have gone to Kalimdor, those blood elves would be lost. In fact night elves helped them to survive Undead with that caravan. if Kael abandoned them, they would be all dead soon. Even if he managed to get back with ships, Garithos would count it as trason and could cause them problems as they already pledged their service to failed allieance.
Hmm, I don't remember Kael mentioning Garithos when the blood elves met the night elves. So, that might have happened after because Kael was desperate keeping the remaining elves alive and Garithos had troops and stuff but not that much magic. Kael only started complaining about the magic dependency after being jailed. Before, no.
I meant as majority currently in all available tilesets/places where we know and have been seen.
Yeah, sure. Many but not more, are present in Ashenvale.
They drink blood and use those ofuntains they can see and other sources.
Lol, draenei blood or fel pig blood or :D? Because Magtheridon would die out of bleeding so much. Or maybe all demons contribute daily, lol. Good fellas, imagine if all of use did that daily, donate blood.
No, they are corrupted recenty unfortunately.
Seems that way. Strange. Corrupting Ancients is no joke.
Again, there is difference when you as person get mad and when yo uare mad as whole at all, as your default behavior. Do not confuse regular human behaviors and stages with stages caused by some states such as undeath
Yeah, but there are nice ghosts as well. Take Medivh for instance. The guardian is probably undead in RoC or ethereal or something. Also, let's not forget that nice revenant boi xD
And when you click it says ,Death Revenant not Guardian. Also ,it is not only graveyard it is large part of forest. Also like she said ,,crused blight". He also created blight, which only Undead do.
Good find! However, that does not prove the revenant is under the Burning Legion's control but could be that it was awakened as a result of the spreading corruption. It even belongs to Neutral Hostile.
On the Guardian, I was talking about the first time we see Revenants, in Northrend with Arthas.
For example, why is there constant snow in Northrend especially Icecrown Glacier?
Because it looks cool, lol and it's the first time they used the snow tiles. Second time was in Alterac but afterwards only in Northrend.
So there is cold obviosly, freezing.
It rarely snows if it's freezing under 5-10 Celsius degrees though.
I do not know if this is from WC3 or not, that is why I do not post these links, but here is explained Mur'gul
It's from a WoW source book.
But there are some ocassions that some monsters are in different areas, especially in campaign. I am just syaing that first thing what fells you in mind that each create mostly has its own place based on it's appereance, magics, behavior etc...
Yeah, that's why I think it's fair for Mur'guls to be native so the Broken Islands. They could have used them for Kalimdor for instance instead of recycling the eastern continent murlocs.
Another time we see him with white hair and face as he was dead.
That could just be the corruption. It was not specified that Arthas died or was raised, just that the character lost sanity.
Imagine man! Outland beautiful sky, and new nether Dragon flying there towards you! Awesome scene
I will die.
 
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It's not said that they were awakened but called. They did fine underwater. They became lizardly fish. How do you think they have their weapons and skills if they just awoke?
Good point but they already could made that after they got transformed. And made buildings. Or maybe I mistaken because in that cinematic Myrmidon actually got awaken. Or they were just sleeping randomly.

Hmm, I don't remember Kael mentioning Garithos when the blood elves met the night elves. So, that might have happened after because Kael was desperate keeping the remaining elves alive and Garithos had troops and stuff but not that much magic. Kael only started complaining about the magic dependency after being jailed. Before, no.
Kael did not needed to mention Garithos specially because he went with caravan to save people and move directly to Alliance. Whoever is in charge is not relevant at that point, they needed to survive Undead, which they could not without help.
Also this is why perhaps he did not complain on magic addiction, it happened to them lately and they did not have time as they were busy fighting. That is really strange.

Yeah, sure. Many but not more, are present in Ashenvale.
In Feelwood which you mean. Yes, as secondary big installation. There are three direct demons: Infernal, Fel Beast and Doom Guard. Also there are Satyrs and some of corrupted beasts. Demon relatives, but yes. However, Outland still outshines Feelwood :cgrin:

Lol, draenei blood or fel pig blood or :D? Because Magtheridon would die out of bleeding so much. Or maybe all demons contribute daily, lol. Good fellas, imagine if all of use did that daily, donate blood.
I do not know which blood, but that fountain produces blood, when Mannorth corrupted it with his blood. So perhaps those are same or similar in Outland. Also, Fel Orcs have burrows and pig farms too. Demons have fel energies constantly to feed, that place radiates it anyway so its never problem about food for those races. That is why others especially Draenei are in danger.

Seems that way. Strange. Corrupting Ancients is no joke.
Oh yeah! Those also train Satyrs and even skeletons, although I wondered why they trained skeletons at all.

Yeah, but there are nice ghosts as well. Take Medivh for instance. The guardian is probably undead in RoC or ethereal or something. Also, let's not forget that nice revenant boi xD
Medivh is also individual, special one. I do not know exactly about him, we should ask expert. I am not.

Good find! However, that does not prove the revenant is under the Burning Legion's control but could be that it was awakened as a result of the spreading corruption. It even belongs to Neutral Hostile.
Well, those corrupted Furbolg are neutral hostile, but still attack only player and you also needed to kill them as side quest. Same as with Death Revenant. So, while they are indirect result of Burning Legion's corruption (corrupted Ancients and those Satyrs are direct as well as Undead and Fel Orcs), those creatures and revenant are indirect consuequences. But still, they never attack Scourage and vice versa. That means that if not under their command, they are neutral towards them at least. You see, we never asked ourselves what if demons managed to corrupt whole Ashenvalle as feelwood, what would happen with those Furbolgs and that Revenant. I believe nothing would happen, they would not recognize Scourage and vice versa as enemies. So, side effect of that corruption is that those creatures are not enemies either. But to player they are.

Because it looks cool, lol and it's the first time they used the snow tiles. Second time was in Alterac but afterwards only in Northrend.
Oh but you quoted this ,,For example, why is there constant snow in Northrend especially Icecrown Glacier?" I write about Northrend, not other snow tilesets. Also I wrote snow, not snowfalling or snowstorm.

It rarely snows if it's freezing under 5-10 Celsius degrees though.
But yes, in reality usually it is like that. Although more recent storms which happened in USA was down to -20 to -40 with heavy storms. But yes. even with this logic, from -5C to -10C is enough there. Constant temperatures like that make stuff difficult.
Also, there is constans ice, ice cracks and all of that. Even if you put reallity logic, ice melts at +1C and above. In Northrend there is always constant freeze, ice and snows which means that temperature is always beyond 0. I believe much lower. I am lazy to track it now or find screenshots but it has been reported that temperatures are literally chilling there that you can feel bones freezing or something like that. Captian said that to Arthas. Also Malganis said that they will die in cold frozen death as they were deeper than ashore in Northrend, where Frosmourne is located. And there is yet constant snow, except at shore directly. Also considering this is Wc3, there can be snow at -20C if you ask them.


It's from a WoW source book.
Ah good to know.

Yeah, that's why I think it's fair for Mur'guls to be native so the Broken Islands. They could have used them for Kalimdor for instance instead of recycling the eastern continent murlocs.
That is very weird to me that regular Murlocs are not there, however Broken Islands are 20 years old, regular ones did not know about them.

That could just be the corruption. It was not specified that Arthas died or was raised, just that the character lost sanity.
But it is specially explained that death knights are Paladins killed in battle and raised to serve as Lich Kings death knights. First one is Arthas. Whatever he is, he is Undead and classified as one anyway, as I said, he is first, so direct logic does not apply to him, as Kel Thuzad was specific lich thus needed different approach to be ressurected. Arthas being Undead also got different approach.

I will die.
Nooooooooooo! It would be epic.
hey what about those black dragons? They are only in Lordean Fall tileset, and in campaign there is Searinox and in Dungeon small drakes. Thats it.
 

deepstrasz

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I do not know which blood, but that fountain produces blood, when Mannorth corrupted it with his blood.
Lol, no. The fountain does not produce blood it contains it. I'm pretty sure if they drank more, the fountain would have dried out.
Also, Fel Orcs have burrows and pig farms too. Demons have fel energies constantly to feed, that place radiates it anyway so its never problem about food for those races.
Strange about Burrows, since they appear in RoC, first on Azeroth. About the pig farms, I guess pigs are supposed to be native to Azeroth so I guess they brought pigs to Draenor in the second war.
although I wondered why they trained skeletons at all.
Gameplay reasons perhaps although they should have put Raise Dead on some satyrs instead.
I do not know exactly about him, we should ask expert. I am not.
We should ask Chris Metzen, lol. I wonder if he knows. Because sometimes, even as a creator, you have no idea what you wanted to do.
Well, those corrupted Furbolg are neutral hostile, but still attack only player and you also needed to kill them as side quest.
Sure but they are corrupted, not Burning Legion slaves, at least not direct ones. Blizzard always did this in their maps with enemy computer AI players not attacking neutral hostile and the other way around. It's a gameplay thing. But if they wanted to show that the furbolgs and revenant were part of the Burning Legion somehow, they could have just put them under other computer players, which they didn't.
You see, we never asked ourselves what if demons managed to corrupt whole Ashenvalle as feelwood, what would happen with those Furbolgs and that Revenant. I believe nothing would happen, they would not recognize Scourage and vice versa as enemies.
I don't know about the furbolgs because they might even start fighting among themselves seeing how crazed they became but the revenant would probably try to get control over the undead there and would fight anything trying to stop that unless some powerful entity would take control of the revenant.
I write about Northrend, not other snow tilesets. Also I wrote snow, not snowfalling or snowstorm.
Ah, sorry.
But yes, in reality usually it is like that. Although more recent storms which happened in USA was down to -20 to -40 with heavy storms.
Were they formed there or brought by winds from other warmer places?
Also considering this is Wc3, there can be snow at -20C if you ask them.
Exactly. It's a fantasy game.
however Broken Islands are 20 years old, regular ones did not know about them.
Yeah, that's why Mur'guls actually came from somewhere else. And, one of the naga mur'gul units is called Mur'gul Slave (their worker) but not the other one as well (the fighter). So, maybe these mur'guls are ocean type murlocs, they came from the depths with the naga when Illidan called them.
But it is specially explained that death knights are Paladins killed in battle and raised to serve as Lich Kings death knights.
No, they are undead corrupted humans, not necessarily paladins. Arthas was tLK's favourite it seems since we don't really see other DKs until TfT but none of them near/around Arthas.
dk.png
Also this source: Warcraft III - Undead -> Units -> Death Knight

The Warcraft II Death Knights are reanimated human knights having orc necrolyte souls.
Nooooooooooo! It would be epic.
It will be epic if I die, ye.
hey what about those black dragons? They are only in Lordean Fall tileset, and in campaign there is Searinox and in Dungeon small drakes. Thats it.
Well, storywise, they could be all around the world I guess but mostly eastern continent and Draenor even.
Furion finds some in the Barrow Deeps.
 
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Lol, no. The fountain does not produce blood it contains it. I'm pretty sure if they drank more, the fountain would have dried out.
But it produces something red there, maybe energy or corrupted water, whatever. It is even called chaos well. Technicallz well has lot of liquid there.

Gameplay reasons perhaps although they should have put Raise Dead on some satyrs instead.
But why gameplay for skeletons? They could put just Satyrs. Unless those are skeletons of night elves actually. Satys Level 9 has Animate Dead as far I remember. Still, he works with dead haha.

We should ask Chris Metzen, lol. I wonder if he knows. Because sometimes, even as a creator, you have no idea what you wanted to do.
haha yeah!

I don't know about the furbolgs because they might even start fighting among themselves seeing how crazed they became but the revenant would probably try to get control over the undead there and would fight anything trying to stop that unless some powerful entity would take control of the revenant.
But renenant has no chance to get control over undead because he never controls any units outside those neutral hostile on maps. No ghould/acolytes or whatever. So local dead yes, but not undead ones such as lich king or burning legion controlled.

Sure but they are corrupted, not Burning Legion slaves, at least not direct ones. Blizzard always did this in their maps with enemy computer AI players not attacking neutral hostile and the other way around. It's a gameplay thing. But if they wanted to show that the furbolgs and revenant were part of the Burning Legion somehow, they could have just put them under other computer players, which they didn't.
Yeah. But they are not that of matters. Blizzard always put something not that matter or as qide quest to be neutral hostile (for that and for the fact they they always use tons of player groups and colors in maps, so it is easier for them some that be neutral rather than to have assigned team to avoid further confusion). Mind that in Dalaran prison mission against kael and vashj there are plenty of Dalaran experiments and monsters and units directly unleashed and controlled by those prison guards which are neutral hostile. Alos, when it has player, sometimes at attracts others to defend them as they are allies. But neutral hostile are not being defended usually by any player. So, that could be some sort of technical reason.

Were they formed there or brought by winds from other warmer places?
I cannot remmeber. But some are formed, some are formed above. You see, at least in tropical Pacific (I was writing 257 pages for that work about islands and atolls) there are currents which brings clouds and winds usually. So weather is affected often by those. But they have those cyclones. I am not sure about snowstorms where they came from exactly, but nearby are places where they are being created, and they pass though some place which is transmitter, or just happens to be in path. However, they sometimes tend to bring even cooler weather. here at least, usually when snow is falling, it is ,,warmer" by few degrees. But still from -5C to -10 usually. However, it does not count when snow storm as wave is coming. It usually brings even colder weather because it is under heavy winds which additionally chill air. I saw in Northrend Blizzard and heavy storm that those are under constant wind, unlike that weak snow.

Yeah, that's why Mur'guls actually came from somewhere else. And, one of the naga mur'gul units is called Mur'gul Slave (their worker) but not the other one as well (the fighter). So, maybe these mur'guls are ocean type murlocs, they came from the depths with the naga when Illidan called them.
This can be. I think too. But Naga enslaved some murguls definitively. That reaver is too, he is foot soldier, he is definitively controlled. There are also in campaign various of murguls under Naga. One is Murgul Clam Shucker in first mission.

But here it is said that they were Paladins.

,,These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals. "
I only was wrong by thinking those were killed Paladins in battlke, then rather resurrected as Death Knight by Lich Kings.

It will be epic if I die, ye.
I will resurrect you!
 

deepstrasz

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But it produces something red there, maybe energy or corrupted water, whatever. It is even called chaos well. Technicallz well has lot of liquid there.
Originally it is named Fountain of Blood but they changed it for that chapter for some reason.
But why gameplay for skeletons? They could put just Satyrs. Unless those are skeletons of night elves actually. Satys Level 9 has Animate Dead as far I remember. Still, he works with dead haha.
Satyrs can be necromancers.
But renenant has no chance to get control over undead because he never controls any units outside those neutral hostile on maps. No ghould/acolytes or whatever. So local dead yes, but not undead ones such as lich king or burning legion controlled.
Yes, I was referring to small groups.
Mind that in Dalaran prison mission against kael and vashj there are plenty of Dalaran experiments and monsters and units directly unleashed and controlled by those prison guards which are neutral hostile
Yeah but that's not a melee oriented map. The AI doesn't send troops that might encounter those by accident or chance.
Alos, when it has player, sometimes at attracts others to defend them as they are allies. But neutral hostile are not being defended usually by any player. So, that could be some sort of technical reason.
Not really. You can set the alliance aspect in the triggers as neutral so then they won't come to help those "allies".
But here it is said that they were Paladins.
Yeah, it's a contradiction. That's why I don't use external material because of the confusion that can ensue.
In the game we only see Death Knights in the TfT chapter where Furion and Illidan have to save Tyrande. It is not explained.
For instance Lich heroes in the RoC Human Campaign are explained by the fact that the Death Knights following Ner'zhul were all turned to liches as Ner'zhul but only the orc was imprisoned while the others were left "free" under tLK's command. Also, in RoC's last night elf chapter, there's a lich working under the Burning Legion.
I will resurrect you!
I will have a fantastical DnR scroll on me.
 
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