@deepstrasz Man it is epic to talk to you! Real pleasure.
Now my turn:
No. I wrote that Illidan can use demonic energy as advantage not that the character used it only for good.
Oh yes. I misunderstood then, I am sorry. But still I want to say, not matter what he ,,wants" to use demonic energy for, it takes its price.
This is one thing which you did not understand from start.
You can use shamanistic powers, those human/night elf arcane or how they are called. You can use druidistic powers, basically you can use each power any race uses and combine them and vice versa. BUT YOU CANNOT USE DEMONIC POWERS LIKE THAT. They always have side effect. Mutation, corruption, changing appearance (bigger in size than before, got eyes glowing in red or green/yellow color, horns and spikes around body, usually wild and uncontrollable), and after some time using it, there is no way back. Only one whose (seems temporarly) got back from demonic powers/fel energy is Grom Hellscream, but he is single case and he is hero, and yet again for him team of priestes, shamans and Jaina needed to work to clean him. And again, in front of Pitlord, he started to transofrms back (his eyes got red again). So, in Wc3 lore, demonic powers are powerul than others, but they always take such prize. Orc Necrolutes (Guldan and others), and many others did it and got more powerful. But why not FUrion for example, Paladins and others? Not because their magic is powerful but because Fel is uncontrollable and is bad. Thast how demons actually mostly convert other races.
That does not make you a demon. It's like if a white person increases melanin and turns the skin black equals that that person has become a black person. No. It doesn't work that way.
Again, as stated above, this is not same. We are not talking about genes and hormones, we are talking about physical empowerment. We are talking about power which is corrupt and devastated. it is said many times that this is destructive power.
See movie for example. I am not taking it as some lore or what, but fel energy is again (as many times before) shown what to do. Mediv said that fel power is something very bad, and is not place in Azeroth. But he used fel power himself. And not matter that he is the most powerful wizard, fel power corrupted it alone. Just like Illidan, Medivh grow bigger, he got dark with green eyes, and was covered with spikes. In fact I very liked this looking! he started to drain life from his own people, killing them, seding them in traps, he put orcs into this wordl... he replaced arcane pool with fel pool, and once his dead golem felt into it, it revived as fel golem. And all of this happened because he simply used that power. So again, this is not game it is movie and thus not related much, but fel power is pretty much explained here exactly as in Wc3. Except Illidan is not that mad as medivh at that level.
Arthas says: "You look different Illidan. I guess the Skull of Gul'dan didn't agree with you". This is just mocking. Arthas seemed surprised but the death knight didn't care as feelings were not something to have anymore.
Then Illidan says: "You and your Lich King duped me once but now I have the upper hand" which means that Illidan saw the consuming of the Skull of Gul'dan as manipulation.
But yeah then Arthas says: "The Frozen Throne is mine demon. Step aside". And then there are the two unused lines where Arthas tells Illidan to leave the world and never return. Now we don't know if that means because Illidan being a demon might be able to come back through the nether or that it means Arthas left Illidan to live so the demon hunter could be humiliated as backed up by the quote before which says that Illidan doesn't even deserve an honourable death.
Regardless, Arthas mocked both Illidan and Kael in that chapter because that's how the character became, cruel, uncaring and was always arrogant.
I completely forgot about that but yes. Illidan even drawn near naga and Blood Elves within it.
And this is what confuses me. But he is exception case much as dreadlord with devine armor. Also Cenarius is demogod. he is only one, perhaps demogods have chaos attacks.
You are right about the Ancient Wendigo, the Red Dragon and others. The unit has normal attack type.
In TfT, even in the campaigns, those creatures have chaos attack type. Well, at least those which appeared.
Well, it is because in TFT they changed globally. And in order to make close to lore, they would go to single mission and replace their attack type from chaos to normal which would take time because there too many units in campaigns and they screwed idea.
Of course it's not a simple weakness it's cocaine addiction. Even Kael and the blood elves resorted to consorting with demons indirectly.
Yes but we did not see what happened to them because those were last missions. In WOW they mutated int ofelbloodelves but I do not care about WOW.
Nah, this is clear. Tyrande will forever be Illidan's crush.
I can't argue with you over that. You know those things, i am just demonic expert. Those are nighelves and Illidan's pre demonic state.
Illidan has had two instance when the character basically begged to live, actually one in Outland when Illidan thought going there would ensure escaping from Kil'jaeden. Second, well, in this case, Illidan was just desperate of the consequences Kil'jaeden might make a reality, thus screaming at Arthas that Illidan sworn to destroy the Frozen Throne and that it had to be done.
Yeah, I am curious why is he so afraid of him. If Illidan is dead, he is dead anyway. What could Kil jaeden do to him after life?
Other than that, Illidan never begged to be let to live, not even after Arthas defeated the demon hunter. According to the unused lines, only Arthas ever said anything and basically mocked Illidan further telling the character to get out of there and never return and that Arthas would be waiting for Illidan if the demon hunter would return.
Yes, but before WOW we though he is dead. And it turned out that he is alive but heavily wounded. Even if he wanted to beg for life he was unable to because he could not even move.
That fight is dumb however. It does not make sense. Illidan is over 10 000 years old, got fel empowerment and is superior to Arthas in any way. And he is bigger. Demonic night elf against human sized man. Plus he can turn into demonic form to get even stronger and bigger. There is only one explanation that at very end Lich King restored and even gave Arthas almost all his powers, so Illidan did not have chance then. He cheated
Understanding Illidan's tale is like that of a junkie who gets in the wrong places with the wrong people, drug traffic, debts etc.
Yes, you have point here all. But you forgot one thing. Illidan is arrogant and this costed him as well. Remember that in cutscene before mission, Arthas and Illidan got fight and was eventually mach. Illidan told him that they can fight like this forever and asked him what does he want anyway. When Arthas explainedh im about skull of guldan and such, Illidan asked him ,,Why should I trust you anything you say to him little human?" Can you imagine it? Calling him little human, man who is equal to him in battle. 10 000 years old, powerful, skilled and yet again got equal to Arthas and yet mocks him ,,little human". Here is not Arthas little as Illidan is. His arrogancy costed him greatly. And stupidity. Instead wait for Malfurion, he took action himself to prove something. Even if not corrupted before, he became after consuming it.
Oh yes, you forgot also line of Furion at end of mission ,,What have you done with my brother you faul demon?" And he replied ,,it is I Furion, this is what I become". then he explained that leader of undead is dead, and forest will heal itself in time. Then druid told him ,,AT THE COST OF YOUR SOUL" So you here clearly have AGAIN stance that fel corruption corrupts everyone, including their souls, and that this was demon now. Not just Arthas, but Furion said this too.
Illidan wasn't sentenced to death. That would have saved a lot of trouble for both the demon hunter and the night elves. Instead they imprisoned the character indefinitely in darkness.
Yes, I am lazy to take screenshots now. At end of mission when you kill Naga summoners, they capture Illidan. And Maiev sentenced him to death, and Malfurion told that he afraids that imprisonment wont be enough this time. Then Illidan did not beg for life but tried to justify himself just moment before Maiev killed him ,,Fools! Cannot you see? Spell we channel was meant to destroy Ligh King and Undead". And just because Maiev lied to Furin about Tyrande, Illidan was spared as he could help.
Yes, they used that gameplay trick for Tichondrius as well. I forgot. But no chaos attack, lol.
I think it is because all heroes because of balance had normal attack. Grom Hellscream is exception because he is meant to kill Cenarius and Mannorth!
Yeah, I don't know what they thought. In that chapter Illidan tells Tichondrius: "Now let's see how confident you are against one of your own kind, dreadlord".
Ah yes I forgot that. That too. But also Malfurion at end when called him ,,foul demon"
I didn't say it wasn't bad that night elves died as a result of bringing the naga. I'm saying, besides that, Illidan did what the character thought would be good in Illidan's point of view considering the character was serving Kil'jaeden. The Lich King was an obvious cancer.
Ilidan should not even burn that fishing villages. They even burned down ships and those villages to prevent them creating ships so they can be followed across sea. This is literally paranoia. He would not do that perhaps if he was not night elf demon. Killing Maiev and her forces are one thing. He sided with Satyrs! Corrupted night elves! So, it is not only Naga. he did multiple mistakes. But yes, about those villages, you pointed out.
For that Malfurion had right directly to send whole army and track him down. Although Malfurion were harsh and strict towards his own brother, when he had right to take action against him, he did not. Perhaps he did not know that yet.
Debatable. It doesn't say all of them have this power to return. It's vaguely mentioned in the manual that Sargeras was fighting countless demons and that there was no end to them.
Hey where did you get those informations? In Manual? Where is this?
From that one could deduce that the eredar and nathrezim are the problematic demons that actually have anything properly to do with the physical world.
See this
in this second picture here is army of Dreadlords (there are more in left side which are not here in this moment) passing gates! Except few Wizard heroes in Dalaran, you do not see anywhere mass number of heroes. And few Paladins overally. Those Dreadlords are just for one gate and just at one place.
Also, it looks like demons could actually be "forever" locked in the Twisting Nether by something as powerful as Sargeras. I guess, that power still has to go on for the prison to be kept under lock.
Oh yeah, I think in Gates of Abyss, when Illidan closes gates, they are coming from there.
Another point to demons being parasites.
And another point to you for demons or demonic magic turning non-demons into demons.
Oh yes, this magic also turns non demons into demons. I also said that. But I said that non demon cannot use demonic power without becomming one, or demon type.
I don't undestand. When are they not helaed or you cannot damage them with Holy Light? I just tested it. It's exactly how I wrote it before. If you're strictly referring to that chapter of the campaign, there is no Holy Light there to begin with?
Not all demons have chaos attack, only the stronger/higher level ones.
Oh, holy light is not working in Outland because they are alive! Use Paladin and test holy light against demon!It will work only against Doom Guard and Fel beast. And maybe Pit lord. But doom guard and fel beasts are here with Undeads as well. You know, demons from Outlandand twisting Nether, but located in other areas too. They are in Feelwood and in Undead missions. Alongisde with Infernal, but he is magic immune.
Yeah, so, what's your point? How does that mean they were still not outnumbered?
No, I did not say that. it is said already that each time someone of them fails in battle, he immediatelly raises as Undead. But they are raised as skeletons or such. The yare not that powerful, just masses with easy units. Unlike demons in outland, they mass units you with high powered units.
If the Plague had been stopped when it should have been, humanity or Lordaeron and Quel'thalas would not have fallen. It's weird how they didn't use such a strategy in War of the Ancients.
That is true. But still in ROC they did not show Outland with those vast forces. KaelThalas those High Elves would not be match for demons from there. They have no tank unit either. Only 4 Rock Golems level 9 (which are super powerful) and some heroes. Humans have something, some knights, elf spellcasters, drarves and such, but still not match for them either (I count fel orcs under Demons too). You have point only if plague is meant to determine victory or no. If demons somehow could enter Lordearan. it would be ended quickly. Humans and elves have no force to stop them. But I said IF. But you constantly keep arguing that demons are same as other units. yes, sure. Footman, militia and other weaklings against those all.
I guess, night elves aren't as easy to turn to undead and/or the demons didn't have such a necromatic development/advancement back then.
Night elves are beaten in different way. Fel Orcs destroyed some, and corrupted Ancients with some demons combined are supposed to wipe out Ashenvalle. If Illidan did not stop them they would success.
You see, Felwood corruption is permanent. So even demons got cleared from Ashenvalle, corruption is still in felwood and some demons are there.
Divine armour is just a gameplay mechanic. It's why I'm stressing we don't put this into the story context because it creates problems.
Mannoroth was defeated by two orcs, lol, well, yeah... you could say Grom had chaos but wasn't red anymore
Grom's eyes started to glow red, he was about to turn again. Then he sacrificed himself to kill demon and himself with super blow (caused by fel energy again).
Thrall did not even hurt Mannorth. Remember that Mannorth missed Thrall, hit ground, and from ground crack, Thrall flied away few meters, hit in rock and got his hand broken. And it was not direct hit, it was miss! That literally made him unable to continue fight. And he is chieftain of Horde. That Mannorth is far from weak. So, technically one orc killed him, empowered with fel and sacrificed himself. Thrall was lucky to survive, if Grom did not do it, Mannorth would killed them both. Watch that video again. Well it could be said that Mannorth was killed from his own creation.
Magtheridon? The fat demon failed miserably. Sure, the Black Citadel had good defenses but the demon alone wasn't that tough. I think Illidan could have 1v1 MagT anytime.
Illidan would win 1vs1 anytime? AHAHAHAHAHAHA
have yo useen his stats? You needed many units to beat him ingame. he has enormous strenght and damage, few spells and reincarnation!
Two Illidans cannot beat him. Illidan said himself that brutal lord mannorth is storng but over years he became decadent because he has only few enemies to test. Eveyrwhere you have sides clashing. You mentioned Lordearon. But they have trolls and Ogres and other units to fight against there. Oh and bandits. So even they are not together. Orcs in Barrens have many problems. Only Night elves are in better position (until Feelwood). But only in Outland there is nobody. Everyone is at same side except Akama's tribe of Draenei which fought for generations and almost got eradicated.
Kil'jaeden works from the shadows. We don't know how strong the demon actually is face to face.
But we know that mighty Illidan got scared to death of him, that much that he is only one who got in Outland to fight demons just ot escape him
have you seen his size? He covers whole screen hahaha
Sure but if we put gameplay into context again, Archimonde doesn't even need mana to call 4 Infernals at once and summon Doom Guards and Fel Stalkers. Plus, Finger of Death. Also, Archimonde is immune to magic. But none of these matter since we don't face the demon ingame.
Because it is intended that he won anyway. But on tree of life he got temporarly weak that 1000 specially designed wisps can overpower him. yet again tree of life is destroyed. Night elves are mortal now!
Finger of Pain. It's not as strong as Finger of Death.
Oh yes, but they are similar, so I forgot about that.
Well, the dreadlord can summon an infernal too. Dragons can eat one unit whole lol. I mean, it's a bit of an exaggeration that demon units are stronger than any other.
Ok, dare to compare unit types then with others? And abilities, what they can have.
I do not know how to explain you better. Again, only they have super tank units, casters, both casters and powerful units, airborne units and naval units combined! Plus that in large numbers which are not seen in other parts. And as I explained already, in Outland there are Draenei only as enemies, small number of them, so they have no enemies and nobody before Illidan tried to invade them. In all other areas there are constant treates and fighting which again goes to demon's advantage because all they have to do is to focus on assualt, not much on defense unlike others.
It's mostly due to the fact that most demon units have chaos attack type.
And aircraft and naval and heavy tank units and siege and heavy spellcasters. And tons of heroes as seen in that screenshot.
Neutral Stormreavers have Animated Dead, Monsoon.
Yes! But they are neutral! They fought against night elves, against player. You have them there logically but they are not massively trained, unlike Demons Level 9.
Also those necrolutes, they were under Guldan, whose also was heavily under fel energies. Their mafics came from demonic powers. Yes, they are not directly with demons, but their strenght came from it. Like I said, whole or almost whole Sunken ruins came from demonic powers. Islands were raised with help of demonic magics. There is Tomb of Sargeras which emits that radiation too, attracts demons. Those killed Guldan even, and his orcs. because of it, Orcs got ressurected as Skeleton orcs. And Murlocs got converted into Murguls.I mean in moment when Maiev and night elves came, it is not longer under demonic energies. They are not affected because it is over, but damage is done, many races happened because of this. You do not have any native units there because everything is recent, 20 years ago. So again, demonic powers.
Faceless and Unbroken with Animate Dead, Unholy Frenzy and chaos attack. They are not demons by the way.
No they are. I think they predates most races on planet. But they are awaken because of it, melting ice crown. But again, faceless ones are not many of types, jsut few, and sure they are powerful and forgotten ones spawns them in masses just as demonic gate spawns demons. Still, there in Glacier you have multiple clashed sides. Undeads in one side, dwarve hiding in caves in another, nerubians in third. So, Outland is much safer for demons than Icecrown Glacier for Faceless and others. Arthas destroyed them anyway. But yes, again ,they are powerful lot, although not as demons still. They lack air units, siege units, defenses, and naval units at all. However I already explained that Northrend is especially dangerous place too, almost as Outland. As I did said about Sunken Ruins. You perhaps forgot that.
Magnataurs with chaos damage, spell immunity, frost bolt and slam (thunder clap).
Magnataurs are awesome! I like them. That Magnataur defeated Doom Guard and most level 8 units 1 vs1. Only Infernal could beat it (I cannot remember of another unit). Magnataur Level 10 is more epic. I never tested it. So yes he is powerful unit type close as demon. But still, they are not trained in mass numbers, and you know, Juggernaut still beats any unit
even magnataur.
I mean, demons have many units but they are like say races of Azeroth.
But as explained above, they are not exactly like others, but I got your point.
So when you compare demons you don't compare them to only humans, trolls, one spefic race because demons are made of more than 1 race. Demons are not a race, they are a faction. Eredar is one race, Nathrezim is another, Succubus another, so on.
Yes, but it is counted as race, even it is faction. In Lordean you have Alliance composed of humans, elves, dwarves... But again, in Lordean they are not together with trolls, Ogres, Gnolls and other neutrals. And undeads. And the fact that they are in same world with every single other race, which can come and invade across sea. Demons are in Outland (with Fel orcs) which is harder ro reach and they have no natural enemies there except small Draenei faction. This is also what is important to compare.
Now you get point in another type of this conversation. When demons invade that area (tileset for easier recognition) they will have to face humans, elves and all other races there because they will all fight for survival.
But when you need to Outland and conquer it, you face almost same, except Draenei as well.
Don't forget Draenei are invisible
yes! And this helped them so far
Without Illidan, naga and blood elves they would get eradicated. Yes, invisibility is ability which I personally value the most (the invisible man is my favorite classic monster
) but against demons it is not enough.
But yes even worse, if you go to conquer Outland you have to fight against invisibility as well.
Also, naga have strong units.
Yes, again I said that before and thus consider Sunken Ruins dangerous place too. Still, Naga has only Royal Guard (which is not trained anywhere there massivelly, but okay it is stil present somewhere) which is considered very powerful! he is match to demons. Other units which yo ucan train in fact can be easily countered. DO you know how many types have cripple, one of the most powerful abilities? 3! nether Dragons, Doom Guards and Fel Orc Warloc! Naga units are done with it. Sure, Couatls can dispel magic, but Sucusbbus has silence! And charm! They can convert any of Naga units (except Royal Guard). And they have many other abilities to throw at Naga. naga Sirens and royal guard can throw shit back them too (but they are only two unit types as casters), demons can easily counter those with few dispel units (Eredar has abolish magic, Fel ravager and Voidwalker have Devour magic and doomguard has dispel). Naga is amphibious, so they have advantage there maybe but still, Fel Orcs have Orc Juggernauts and Frigates! And Hydras are being used there by demons :cgrn: named doombeasts! Like I said, hard targets man. Oh, both Naga and Demons lack healers. Demons sucks at it only, but still have Sucubbus with Unholy Aura to enhance their regeneration. Oh, and there is Fel Orc beastmaster (holy light). And thats it perhaps.
The Sky Barges? Weren't they only used for transport? I think that idea was scrapped. I don't see any flying units on that map.
No, I meant on Fel Orc Ships which fought by naga. And doombeasts.
Funny thing is that you can rescue Bloodfiends with Draenei
Yeah, they got punished and put in caves and get tortured
As well as other Draenei you rescue.
Yah, that's the reason those units are strong, it's the last chapters
Yeah, last two! Before kneeling to Kiljaeden
We don't know that. There is no explanation how revenants came to be, if any demonic energy is involved at all. Note that elementals are not technically alive.
Yes, elementals are not alive, but still not Undead! Revenanta are market as Undead, go and select it ,,level 9 Undead". Those are corrupted, elementals can be corrupted. I read somewhere that revenants were once fallen warriors or such, but I am tired now, I cant search for that.
The demons could not have entered Azeroth without corrupting Azshara and the highborne. They were the ones to open the portals.
Yes. I said they are the most powerful but meant once they are in for battle. Until you prevent them you are Okay.
Also, since you wrote demons don't die and come back, what were they afraid of lol that they had to wait and convert entire populations of planets to even start an invasion?
I did not write that they cannot die. I just said they are more powerful than any other race.
And ask Blizzard why is that. Same as night elf tactic. They corrupt then invade. in ROC there is no Outland, perhaps they introduct demonic army in Outland. They wanted to make them playable race so they scrapped it and adapted it to Undeads in ROC.
I guess Cenarius is a serial dreamer.
The thing is, Mannoroth did not come to face Cenarius even after the orcs drew the demigod out.
There's a difference ambushing and not even being present at the spot of battle like the cowardly demons.
I don't understand. You're saying Archimonde forbade Mannoroth to fight Cenarius? Nope. Tichondrius told Mannoroth that Archimonde suggested to use the orcs to kill Cenarius. So yeah, smart but cowardly
Read that dialogue. Archimonde clearly said that Mannorth is his and that they will watch Orcs and wait. Despite their failure they will still be useful. He said that after Mannorth said that he is aware of Orcs failure and that he will discipline himself personally, and that they are his by right. Archimonde already had plans for Orcs since they happened to be in Kalimdor. it was planned that they got corrupted and kill Cenarius. And in that fountainf of blood. See that dialogue too. Mannorth said that he wanted to face Cenarius in kombat directly, but he is crafty and rarey goes to open. So technically its not my fault that I want to fight you directly, and you are waiting in trees and constanty avoiding me. This is your tactics, I give you that, but because I am not going to follow your style does not make me coward. I wont go to pursie you in trees, I will make someone else to do job for me. But Cenarius sent women against them! Against Orcs while green yet. And he attacked them with Airborne units and such.... Orcs did not have that, they were limtied. No taurens and no air units. So who is coward then? Accodring to your logics, Night elves are actually. But no. Nobody is coward here. Night elves are under attack. Their homeland is under attack. There isn o measuring muscles, they attack with everything they got! Read dialogue. dreadlord told that Archimode said that Orcs can kill Cenarius for them! So, while I agree with you, but situation was that nobody was coward.
You my warriors attack intruders and I will watch you from here!
And warriors are women mostly hahahahah
Oh did not you notice that those night elf heroes are arrogant and overconfident too? Maybe same as demons.
,,Who dare you to defile this land? Iam hearth of this land"
,,I defeated your kind ages ago and I should do this again"
Remember Maiev also ,,Naga. Many craven races have tempted our wrath for centuries. None have survived"
Can you imagine this quote? Which races they beat for centuries? And yet again against Undeads and Archimonde they had to team with Orcs and Undeads to back them off. And not to repeat about killed Cenarius, Feelwood and other stuff there. And Ilidan converted. They got almost eradicated.
Yeah, but let's face it, we didn't see Illidan do it without a reason
opium that is.
Yeah, lets face it. i did not break your head with stone, opium did that.
But why am I using it anyway? And who forced me to use it? nevermind
And I am told before I started using that opium that I will become more stronger, faster, but will get more insane... But hey, i did not know because I CHOSED IT to ignore that fact. Same as Illidan exactly knew what demons are and what fel powers is. In fact he was searching for it.
Unless you can prove me that veteran with 10 000 years old and had war with demons before did not know still what is demonic power and what price was. But he was searching for that power anyway. Maybe he was dumb, but still....
Kil'jaeden is not just any demon. The idea was that probably Illidan was dreaming of overpowering even the Great One.
Oh yea! great argument. You know what I dream all
And what is reality. Dream is one thing ,reality another. And the fact that he dreamed that can replace leader of demons and burning legion is insane. You must be insane to even think of that. Arrogant and uncontrollable. That proves me even more about demonic powers, what they do to mind.
Well, you can see God, theoretically in scriptures, depictions, churces and such.
You can't see him. I can't. Nobody can. They believe that they see. But believing is one thing, fact is another.
Now again, do you see nether Dragons there in game or we all believe to see them? Sorry, but this logic will get you nowhere
Anyways, by Warcraft III mind boggling lore, Illidan is a demon. You've won.
I guess, you win although to me it doesn't make sense. It's as if Illidan had a genetic sex change.
Sorry man. I did not mean to win over you or to defeat you.
You are better than me here mostly, you have more post counts, you have more knowledge about game perhaps, but for previous warcrafts for sure as I almost forgot about them. I only tend to know demonic stuff little better than you. You only made mistake because you did not realize so far after all warcrafts, WOW and even movie that demonic magic is not any magic you can just use whenever you wish, and that it completely change person, enhancing him any way and converting him. But making him uncontrollable, evil and violent.
