Existence of God

[Hakeem]

Hmm... I don't remember making you think you made me think that...

 

[ankaboot]

Christianity is not religion.

Religion ...

... gives us the means to save ourselves from the dangerous aspects of our human nature;

... provides us with a means to know God, to be directly aware of God's existence, and to experience God's friendship;

... leaves every human being with completely free choice of what to believe, not believe, do or not do;

... enables people to gather themselves into mutually supportive communities based on common beliefs about what is beneficial and what is harmful to themselves;

... offers assurance, to those who need it, that they are acceptable to God;

... answers, in the simplest way possible, questions about existence that empirical physical sciences will never be able to answer;

... demonstrates, for the faithful, that there is more to existence than the phenomenological universe;

... provides a map of reality and of human nature;

... enables us to live together in such a way that every individual's potentials may be realized;

... acknowledges that pathways of benefit to everyone are available to everyone and that differences between people are accommodated by different pathways that are effective for different people;

... and the list goes on, and is entirely unaffected by the belief or disbelief of anyone.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Hmm... I don't remember making you think you made me think that...

That's because I made you forget about thinking you did it.

 

[Hakeem]

Okay, I made an ambiguous statement (As Craka_J said earlier),
What I meant was that Christianity is not equal to religion.
It is a religion, but it doesn't represent all religion.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Not all religions are wholly good (in fact, I can't think of a single one) just as not all religions are wholly bad (again, I can't think of a single one). All religions (excluding smallish cults, and no matter how they are eventually used) are all created for good.

 

[ankaboot]

What I meant was that Christianity is not equal to religion.
It is a religion, but it doesn't represent all religion.

Whatever does not possess the qualities I described is not a religion, but is falsehood masquerading as religion.

 

[Razorbrain]

Whatever does not possess the qualities I described is not a religion, but is falsehood masquerading as religion.

this is called an opinion you know

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Hmm. I'm inferring from what I've learned in my philosophy class that just because the God of the three big monotheistic religions is referred to as a single being, does not mean that the God of the three big monotheistic religions is a single being. That allows for polytheistic religions to fit into your description, ankaboot.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Except that there are religions that don't contradict science. You know very little of my religion, and from the looks of it, very little of many others as well.

They will ALL disapear eventually. Whether it is a slow quiet disapearance, or a cruel death (could be anything).


And Christianity will disapear. Those who believe so strongly in it now will pass away, and though their children might seem to believe so strongly, I doubt it will be as strong (whether significantly less strong or very slightly), and eventually it will become a minority.

But it might take thousands of years. It will pass away like all other religions before it, and so will the others. They might be replace with something similar or completly different beliefs, but they WILL disapear.

 

[Elenai]

We shall see. We shall see.

Even if it does disappear...it will only take one small spark to re-ingnite the flame.

Take Neo-Paganism. (Wicca for short) It disapeared (just about) for hundreds of years. But it has resurfaced.

 

[Hakeem]

WILLTHEALMIGHTY, the system of morals you purpose, is already a religion, if not many.

 

[Nuke770]

what a complete waste of time........ arguing about something that is based solely on faith or pure human reason.........

 

[Cheeder]

Nothingness (non-existence) is a negative therefore existence, or that which exists, is a positive. God must exist because some-thing cannot come from no-thing.

The possibility of nothing to exist is infinite but the probability of it existing is infinitely small.

Therefore there never was nothing. So, for something to come from something there needs to be a cause, a purpose, and thus intelligence.

Intelligence is not measued by our standards but the ABILITY to create. If God were a retarded baby and created this universe, well the ability to create MAKES God intelligent even to this degree of existence.

Which leads us to ability. The ability to create needs power. Does God run out of power? Where was the source of power BEFORE God which MAY have created God? There was none. All was God and God is power. The power to BE intelligent, the power TO create, the power to BE.

If nothing were a true possibility, than a nothingness of, for example, a pencil would consume all. To visualize, a spec of nothingness would defy God's existence and therefore is impossible to be and thus does not exist. Again, to visualize, a spec of nothingness may consume all of existence like a blackhole but in an infinitely small fraction of a second.

Face it, were are the thoughts of God's imagination.

 

[Cheeder]

what a complete waste of time........ arguing about something that is based solely on faith or pure human reason.........

It would be a waste of time if you couldn't prove God's existence with logic. However, i did just that, so belief and faith or no belief or faith, God does exist.

 

[donut3.5]

so belief and faith or no belief or faith, God does exist.

sigh... why do people like this even try to argue?
It's called circular arguments. You are saying God exists because nothingness couldn't exist, because God created it.
--donut3.5--

 

[Nuke770]

cheeder no offense but its seems you are too dogmatic, in your rambling you have not brought up a single tenable argument. And as the last user most intelligently stated, your using circular reasoning which in reality does not work, but in some people's minds do.....(ahem*)

No offense at all, but i am a strict believer in god, but i am also skeptical over how you can prove his existence with our limited human minds...

 

[Gilles]

what a complete waste of time........ arguing about something that is based solely on faith or pure human reason.........

Are you kidding? We use human reason to argue the existence of God. Why do people separate faith and reason? They are both part of Christianity.

I was gone for a while, I missed a lot. Sorry for bringing up older stuff. I never got to defend my statements.

I wish to rewrite a previous statement about everyone being Catholic.

If everyone followed the teachings of the Catholic church the world would be peaceful. Think about the morals of the church! The only thing is there couldn't be abortion, the "pill", and homosexual couple, I know this is against many peoples morals, but I want to set those aside. The Church teaches love and compassion, which we all need.

People started talking about how we would have sacrifices, genocide, stoning of homosexuals, and the like. This is really ignorant. This stuff happened in the Old testament in the Bible, and some pretty bad things happened in the middles ages when Christianity ruled, but some leaders were misguided, and when you have a huge group you can't believe everyone will follow the rules. Now the Church does not condone any of this.

Just to clear things up, The Catholic Church does not hate homosexuals, or even deny that people can be attracted to the opposite sex! You are just not allowed to act upon it, just the same as you can't rape if you feel a passion for someone.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

 

[Nuke770]

not really..... have you ever studied ethics or in this case philosophy...pure human reason can be defined as Kant's ideology or even Aristotle, who based their claims of God's existence to be negligible even not there because of how a human telos is practically based upon happiness (Aristotle), and for Kant he argues that the only thing that matters in this world is to follow the "categorical imperatives'....both use pure philosophical reasoning to exclude god from this universe, while Christianity uses divine revelation and religious reasoning to help us understand what our purpose is...

*MERGED BY Shados*

also Christianity is not so perfect, i mean it is exceedingly corrupted. I am referring to the Great Schism when our dear Christianity had two popes.....anyways one can also argue the fact that Christianity is a very utilitarianism faith in which people such as kings of Britain use it to justify their political motives. And might i remind you how many sects of Christianity there are...(500-major sects, and 2500 minor sects)....so no one religion can be the ultimate good for the world...

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Christ, he even edited the double post, but didn't merge it with the other one. Look at that, I'm using religion !

Anyways, there's no point in using logic to define/explain/prove something illogical. If you think about it, there's no logical way that God can be omniscient, omnipotent, and all good. Except that God is anyways. So, God is illogical, and, obviously, there is no way to logically prove something illogical. As far as I know, every philosopher that has tried has left holes in their theories. Even the uncaused causer theories leave holes; what if the universe and time are circular? There is no reason for nothingness to be any more likely than somethingness, so it's possible that everything just always was. Which, actually, could just make existence as a whole God, which would actually make a little sense now that I think about it. Talking to existence as a whole would be a stretch, though.

P.S: Cheeder, you should introduce yourself here if you plan on staying.

 

[Tobbzn]

If god exists, he certainly is not a good god.

If god is good, he certainly does not exist.

In any case, the religions we have now, with the exclusions of Buddhism, Pastafarianism and Satanism, fail. Alright, alright, I'll add hinduism since you're so perky about it.

Old Creationist advert; If you want a new TV, do you pay the guys at Sony to make one, or do you toss a bunch of spare parts into the woods and wait a couple of million years?

And I'm an atheist.

*MERGED BY Shados*

Are you kidding? We use human reason to argue the existence of God. Why do people separate faith and reason? They are both part of Christianity.

I was gone for a while, I missed a lot. Sorry for bringing up older stuff. I never got to defend my statements.

I wish to rewrite a previous statement about everyone being Catholic.

If everyone followed the teachings of the Catholic church the world would be peaceful. Think about the morals of the church! The only thing is there couldn't be abortion, the "pill", and homosexual couple, I know this is against many peoples morals, but I want to set those aside. The Church teaches love and compassion, which we all need.

People started talking about how we would have sacrifices, genocide, stoning of homosexuals, and the like. This is really ignorant. This stuff happened in the Old testament in the Bible, and some pretty bad things happened in the middles ages when Christianity ruled, but some leaders were misguided, and when you have a huge group you can't believe everyone will follow the rules. Now the Church does not condone any of this.

Just to clear things up, The Catholic Church does not hate homosexuals, or even deny that people can be attracted to the opposite sex! You are just not allowed to act upon it, just the same as you can't rape if you feel a passion for someone.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Well, when the religious churches act the way it attempts to teach, I might be more persuaded.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

You do know that there are religions with gods that are good and bad? That there are plenty of religions in which gods don't care about people at all? That agnosticism is a religion? That atheism is too, and that by extension you also fail? That there's such thing as an edit button?

 

[Nuke770]

tep ephy i am sorry about that double post, but i was in a hurry and wanted to present two arguments that were separate in an easier way, anyways the past two posts are very intelligent in their understanding of thinking one way and doing another way.

 

[Elenai]

"Strong atheism is a logically flawed position. Weak atheism, agnosticism and skepticism are all "I don't know" theological positions, with weak atheists subscribing to atheistic presuppositions, true agnostics "sitting on the fence," and skeptics capitulating to ignorance. Assured theists are the only ones who claim to know anything. What do they know? In the end it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what's actually true. You might not believe in gravity. Nevertheless, if you step off a tall building you are going to splat on the ground below. The existence of God has enormous implications for you and me, and prudence would have us make a full investigation of all the available data before putting our eternity in the care of any one belief-system"

from allaboutphilosophy.com

Ironic that a (strong Atheist) would have to know everything to know that God for a fact does'nt exist. And if you did know everything you would be Omniscient, and if you knew everything you would be all powerful and thus Omnipotent, for knowledge is power and if you knew everything you would know how to wield all power. And if you are Omniscient and Omnipotent, you would know how to be Omnipresent, and have to power to make it so. You would then be all three Omni's and thus be a god and thus a god would exist.

 

[PurplePoot]

Nothingness (non-existence) is a negative therefore existence, or that which exists, is a positive. God must exist because some-thing cannot come from no-thing.

The possibility of nothing to exist is infinite but the probability of it existing is infinitely small.

Therefore there never was nothing. So, for something to come from something there needs to be a cause, a purpose, and thus intelligence.

Intelligence is not measued by our standards but the ABILITY to create. If God were a retarded baby and created this universe, well the ability to create MAKES God intelligent even to this degree of existence.

Which leads us to ability. The ability to create needs power. Does God run out of power? Where was the source of power BEFORE God which MAY have created God? There was none. All was God and God is power. The power to BE intelligent, the power TO create, the power to BE.

If nothing were a true possibility, than a nothingness of, for example, a pencil would consume all. To visualize, a spec of nothingness would defy God's existence and therefore is impossible to be and thus does not exist. Again, to visualize, a spec of nothingness may consume all of existence like a blackhole but in an infinitely small fraction of a second.

Face it, were are the thoughts of God's imagination.

Mmm, what if there was energy from the start, and no god(s)?

Your argument bites you in the ass =/

"Strong atheism is a logically flawed position. Weak atheism, agnosticism and skepticism are all "I don't know" theological positions, with weak atheists subscribing to atheistic presuppositions, true agnostics "sitting on the fence," and skeptics capitulating to ignorance. Assured theists are the only ones who claim to know anything. What do they know? In the end it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what's actually true. You might not believe in gravity. Nevertheless, if you step off a tall building you are going to splat on the ground below. The existence of God has enormous implications for you and me, and prudence would have us make a full investigation of all the available data before putting our eternity in the care of any one belief-system"

from allaboutphilosophy.com

Easy for a theist to say... I could argue the same about you.

You know, I would say atheists are much more rational people. We tend to say we don't believe in god(s) but there's always the possibility, though we think that it is less likely and such. You think that you're 100% right, no exceptions.

Ironic that a (strong Atheist) would have to know everything to know that God for a fact does'nt exist. And if you did know everything you would be Omniscient, and if you knew everything you would be all powerful and thus Omnipotent, for knowledge is power and if you knew everything you would know how to wield all power. And if you are Omniscient and Omnipotent, you would know how to be Omnipresent, and have to power to make it so. You would then be all three Omni's and thus be a god and thus a god would exist.

Assuming, wrongfully of course, that all atheists think they're 100% sure god(s) don't exist.

 

[Elenai]

Warning chliche'd response.....

Are you absolutely sure that God does not exist?

And if you are not sure then are you willing to take the chance of being wrong?

 

[Tobbzn]

If there is a god, and that god damned you to eternal suffering for not believing him, I'd actually feel good not being on such a tard's side.

 

[PurplePoot]

/agree.

And Elenai, what if you are wrong, and the Muslims or someone are right?

I think Allah or whoever would rather accept people who didn't give a shit if you're Muslim, over people who historically burned you at the stake for being so, yes?

This question was actually asked and answered a little while back too. (By you)

Oh, also, if you're wrong then you've lied a lot and wasted a lot of time =/

 

[Elenai]

Oh? And have I ever burned a Muslim. Or tortured him? No. If Muslim is correct. Then by all means I would get into heaven. Because in Islam Hell is not eternal (I think I may have to re look it up). And after I was cleansed I would meat God in the new Eden.

And to Tobbzn: God is by far not a tard. He gives you a clear oppurtunity to escape justice. He gives you the chance to accept the pardon. And the only reason people go to Hell is because they deserve it. We all deserve it. But by Gods holy grace he gives us a way into heaven. He is a loving God. But he is a just God as well. And if we do the crime of sin, then we must accept the pardon or the punishment. And the punishment is eternal.

This question was actually asked and answered a little while back too. (By you)

Oh, also, if you're wrong then you've lied a lot and wasted a lot of time =/

Explain.

 

[Tobbzn]

"A way to escape justice"?

Explain. I learned that if you weren't christian you'd go to hell in that "christian Justice".

 

[Elenai]

Escape the punishment of Hell.

And remember that God is a just God. Those who hear God's grace and reject it doom themselves.

If you broke the law, and you were going to be sent to prison, and your lawyer offered you a way to get a pardon, and if you rejected it. You would have doomed yourself to prison. Not only because you broke the law in the first place. But because you rejected the pardon.

 

[PurplePoot]

Oh? And have I ever burned a Muslim. Or tortured him? No. If Muslim is correct. Then by all means I would get into heaven. Because in Islam Hell is not eternal (I think I may have to re look it up). And after I was cleansed I would meat God in the new Eden.

Last time I checked, it's your religion that counts. Or else I would get into heaven if I was a nice person, and an atheist. Your logic disproves itself.

God is by far not a tard. He gives you a clear oppurtunity to escape justice. He gives you the chance to accept the pardon. And the only reason people go to Hell is because they deserve it. We all deserve it. But by Gods holy grace he gives us a way into heaven. He is a loving God. But he is a just God as well. And if we do the crime of sin, then we must accept the pardon or the punishment. And the punishment is eternal.

Nobody deserves that. Should you be eternally tortured because one day you punched someone in a fit of rage? This is starting to sound like Sadism -.-

Explain.

About the lying? You're preaching that you're 100% right.

And remember that God is a just God. Those who hear God's grace and reject it doom themselves.

So I'm fine since I haven't heard it?

 

[Deometris]

Wasn't this suppose to be a debate about the existence of god, not the nature?

Face it, were are the thoughts of God's imagination.

Then god is just as fucked up as us

 

[donut3.5]

You're going to have to learn that in the off topic forum, we get off topic of even the off topic posts.

And true, if we're all thoughts of God's imagination, then God must share our personalities' flaws too, such as being corrupt, demented, greedy, after all, those things are just God's imagination too, if humans as a whole are God's imagination.
So, either God is just as perverse as humans themselves, or we have free will and are therefore not an imagination of God. I don't know about you, but I can control whatever I want to happen in my imagination.
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

So I'm fine since I haven't heard it?

The LORD your God sent his only son Jesus Christ to be the last sacrifice to redeem humanity of their sin, for those who accept his sacrifice and become saved are made new and God removes their crimes and pardons them of their punishment in Hell and opens the doorway for Heaven.

You have now heard it.

Nobody deserves that. Should you be eternally tortured because one day you punched someone in a fit of rage? This is starting to sound like Sadism -.-

We break the laws of God every single day of our lives. When we go to Hell we deserve it. There is no one upon the face of the Earth that is righteous or deserving of Heaven.

And to tell you this much. I have not lied. And I by my faith in God I have no reason to doupt the LORD and his grace. By God I know I am right to put my faith in he who saved my soul from eternal Damnation!

 

[Tobbzn]

But then again, you have no reason to believe it any more than doubt it.

 

[Elenai]

I have all the reason it the world to believe it. Enough to even die for it.

 

[Tobbzn]

Oh, do you, now? I guess something has happened in your life that you cannot explain in any logical way, and therefore you turned to the currently largest religion as the most likely choice for you?

 

[Elenai]

Nope...My testimony is this.

I came to the realization that I am a sinner. I prayed to God for salvation in the Lord Christ. I was saved by his grace. And from that moment on I have experienced wonderful changes in my life.

There was no physical problem, or outer stimuli that drove me to Christ.

 

[Hakeem]

Anyways, there's no point in using logic to define/explain/prove something illogical. [...] Talking to existence as a whole would be a stretch, though.

"This statement if true."
"This statement if false."
Does a paradox make the parts involved possible or impossible?

You know, I would say atheists are much more rational people. We tend to say we don't believe in god(s) but there's always the possibility, though we think that it is less likely and such. You think that you're 100% right, no exceptions.

Science and religion as far from exclusive.

If there is a god, and that god damned you to eternal suffering for not believing him, I'd actually feel good not being on such a tard's side.

Assuming god lets you feel good in hell.

I think Allah or whoever would rather accept people who didn't give a shit if you're Muslim, over people who historically burned you at the stake for being so, yes?

Muslims know it's not our place to judge either way. Only god can judge.

Wasn't this suppose to be a debate about the existence of god, not the nature?

Some people think that they understand god's nature, and try to use that to say he does not exist.

And true, if we're all thoughts of God's imagination, then God must share our personalities' flaws too, such as being corrupt, demented, greedy, after all, those things are just God's imagination too, if humans as a whole are God's imagination.

Do you create characters so that you can act like yourself?

So, either God is just as perverse as humans themselves, or we have free will and are therefore not an imagination of God. I don't know about you, but I can control whatever I want to happen in my imagination.

If you knew all the information in the universe in any instant of time, then you could calculate exactly what had happened before that instant, and everything that would happen after that instant. God or not, you are going to make whatever decision you are going to make, but you are what you are that makes the decision you would make. You make your decisions.

 

[donut3.5]

So what happens if you live so righteously for no reason? What if death is it?
I've always found that whatever makes you happy makes you happy, but killing or dying for a religion seems like a waste of life to me, being that I think that once life is over, its just over.
EDIT:

Do you create characters so that you can act like yourself?

Why would you create characters to act like someone you aren't? Most people spend most of their lives putting on masks to be accepted in real life, why would they need to do it in their imagination?
--donut3.5--

 

[Elenai]

I have a question Hakeem. You are a Muslim correct?

If I went to Hell...would I stay for eternity? Or would I go through a cleansing process and enter Heaven later?

(This is to verify a point made in an earlier post made by me)

So what happens if you live so righteously for no reason? What if death is it?
I've always found that whatever makes you happy makes you happy, but killing or dying for a religion seems like a waste of life to me, being that I think that once life is over, its just over.

If death is all there is, then you have the satisfaction (sort of seeing as your dead) of having lived the life of a good man, who gave to the poor, and lived your life as good. And not stooped to being a selfish and self gratifying juggernaut pushing everyone down just to fulfill the next cheap thrill.

 

[Tobbzn]

Nope...My testimony is this.

I came to the realization that I am a sinner. I prayed to God for salvation in the Lord Christ. I was saved by his grace. And from that moment on I have experienced wonderful changes in my life.

There was no physical problem, or outer stimuli that drove me to Christ.

May I ask what made you go for Christianity instead of another religion?

 

[Elenai]

Truth....simple as that.

When I looked at Christianity I found, Truth.

I had looked at other religions, other faiths, (I like history and studied alot about ancient cultures.) but it was in Christ alone that I found true peace.

 

[Tobbzn]

When you're dealing with atheists such as me, you cannot expect me to understand answers like that; You makes it sound like "I have a hunch!"

+rep for actually looking at the other religions though, I know many who blindly follow a religion without having any other reason than "It's what I were raised to believe."

EDIT: I have to honor my Norwegian ancestry of using way too many smilies on the internet!

EDIT2: I'm off to sleep now. I'll get 5 hours of sleep due to these debates.. Hooray..

 

[Elenai]

I can understand your position. You think with material concepts. And explaining my faith is like explaining not only color but the Cistine Chapel masterpieces to a blind man.

It is like the Cistine Chapel....I looked at other paintings...abstract...realism...But when I looked at the absolute beauty of Cistine Chapel...I knew it was the one.

I hope that helps the explanation.

(and PS I appologize to all if I came off as arrogant and rude. I felt like I was being backed into a corner and attacked at the very core of my being.)

 

[Teh_Ephy]

You know, I would say atheists are much more rational people. We tend to say we don't believe in god(s) but there's always the possibility, though we think that it is less likely and such. You think that you're 100% right, no exceptions.

Assuming, wrongfully of course, that all atheists think they're 100% sure god(s) don't exist.

As far as I know, true atheists deny any possibility of there being a God or gods. If you admit the possibility, you're more agnostic.

Anyways, Elenai, don't talk as if you're 100% right, talk as if you're just more likely than not to be. You'll get on less peoples' bad sides.

 

[Elenai]

I have already made the apology statement above.

But do not forget....I am most likley not the only one that needs to look at the issue and not think I am 100% correct.

And the most likley reason I speak as if I am right, is because this belief is so much apart of my core being.

 

[PurplePoot]

I came to the realization that I am a sinner. I prayed to God for salvation in the Lord Christ. I was saved by his grace. And from that moment on I have experienced wonderful changes in my life.

But consider; was it the fact that you prayed, or that you changed your ways, that fixed it?

Science and religion as far from exclusive.

I was kinda talking to Elenai there, should've been a bit more clear I guess =/

Muslims know it's not our place to judge either way. Only god can judge.

Sorry if I offended you or anything, I just picked a random religion that has had... disagreements with Christianity.

If death is all there is, then you have the satisfaction (sort of seeing as your dead) of having lived the life of a good man, who gave to the poor, and lived your life as good. And not stooped to being a selfish and self gratifying juggernaut pushing everyone down just to fulfill the next cheap thrill.

On the other hand, how come you cannot do the same without being Christian?

I can understand your position. You think with material concepts. And explaining my faith is like explaining not only color but the Cistine Chapel masterpieces to a blind man.

It is like the Cistine Chapel....I looked at other paintings...abstract...realism...But when I looked at the absolute beauty of Cistine Chapel...I knew it was the one.

I hope that helps the explanation.

Know is such a strong word, Believe is probably a lot better suited.

I get what you're trying to say though.

I have already made the apology statement above.

But do not forget....I am most likley not the only one that needs to look at the issue and not think I am 100% correct.

And the most likley reason I speak as if I am right, is because this belief is so much apart of my core being.

I think you're the only one here who's stated they're 100% sure of what they follow.

As far as I know, true atheists deny any possibility of there being a God or gods. If you admit the possibility, you're more agnostic.

Ah, well then, meh. I still definitely don't think there's very much chance at all in there being god(s), I just am a little more open-minded about it than some people on either side.

 

[Tobbzn]

I have a question Hakeem. You are a Muslim correct?

If I went to Hell...would I stay for eternity? Or would I go through a cleansing process and enter Heaven later?

(This is to verify a point made in an earlier post made by me)




If death is all there is, then you have the satisfaction (sort of seeing as your dead) of having lived the life of a good man, who gave to the poor, and lived your life as good. And not stooped to being a selfish and self gratifying juggernaut pushing everyone down just to fulfill the next cheap thrill.

[Last reply before going to sleep]
I know you didn't mean it, but it sounded like you think that's how atheists are

 

[Elenai]

The fact I prayed, and the fact I changed are one and the same. The cause and the effect.

Simple change did not make me into a Christian. I still sin, and I still feel guilt. But the realization that God loved me so much that he being God would do something to allow me, a sinner, that deserves nothing. To be forgiven. Is a feeling of such completeness. That it is like poetry in comparison to mere words.