Evolution map. Good/bad? suggestions?

[burnedevil]

I got very weird idea and dunno if its any good so i just post it here to see what people think.

Idea: Aos map. You start with hero (can choose ranged,melee + select few atrribute bonuses). Hero has few gategories of spells. (heal area, heal target, support spells, damage target, damage area, passive. Your gameplay will affect what kind of spells will your hero gain later levels.

By casting spells and differend types of gameplay would give you different abilities when you reach certain level --> evolution.

Example: If choose str as primary attribute, you can come either tank or damager. Killing lots of units and using destructive spells would give you spells like showckwave. Taking damage and using healing spells would give you spells like holy light or armor avatar. Also there could be possibility to have spells that damage and heal on later levels

What I think of this map:

pros:
+Unique
+Would have lots of spells
+Possibility to change heros spells to counter enemies.

cons:
-You always might not get type of hero you want
-Im not sure how good the system would turn out, but I thinkg it wont be too big problem.
-Lots of work if gona make customised spells.

 

[smily132]

Your idea so far, would not be worth the effort

 

[MurderMode]

i disagree, it would be worth the effort, it's just it would just take so much effort that to complete it you might as well be working for a commercial games developer.

The idea is good, and I don't see not ending up with the hero you like as a con. It becomes a new level of strategy, you would have to play alot to find an evolution you like, and once you do you would have to play carefully to reach that evolution.

The triggering and effort required to record all spell use and the like would be far too extreme for anyone to dedicate their life to just for the love of the game. Even if you successfully managed to complete the system, the bug fixing would be endless and have you ripping your hair out.

Evolution games have been attempted before, but as far as I have seen... to no great success. Reduce your idea to something like having item combinations effect your heroes evolution (basically a hero recipe) and you might have a workable idea.

 

[burnedevil]

i disagree, it would be worth the effort, it's just it would just take so much effort that to complete it you might as well be working for a commercial games developer.

The idea is good, and I don't see not ending up with the hero you like as a con. It becomes a new level of strategy, you would have to play alot to find an evolution you like, and once you do you would have to play carefully to reach that evolution.

The triggering and effort required to record all spell use and the like would be far too extreme for anyone to dedicate their life to just for the love of the game. Even if you successfully managed to complete the system, the bug fixing would be endless and have you ripping your hair out.

Evolution games have been attempted before, but as far as I have seen... to no great success. Reduce your idea to something like having item combinations effect your heroes evolution (basically a hero recipe) and you might have a workable idea.

Yea this is probly the biggest problem. The formula is pretty troublesome but I think I will realize its impossible when/if i start working with it.

My system would need:
- Damage dection of somekind
- Healing detection (amount of healed)

If anyone can make good gui damage/heal detection system pls enlighten me.
It needs to be like for every 100 damage hero takes set inter = inter + 1.
Every 100 damage hero makes set inter2 = inter2 + 1 and heal would work same way.

 

[MurderMode]

you wouldn't need to base the evolution off damage done, or amount healed. Just base it off the number of attacks a unit makes, as well as amount of times a unit casts a healing spell.

Create integer variable arrays for all the possible skills that affect evolution, with the array being the amount of players.

For example, create an integer array for attacking. You could call it 'damage[player number of owner of triggering unit]' and every time a unit attacks another unit you add +1 to the integer. Then when it comes to evolution, check if the integer is >100, <100 but >200, <200 but >300, etc. For each different range of numbers it can affect the unit differently.

Same with spells, just create an integer array for a specific spell, and when the unit casts the spell it increases the integer by 1. the ranges would be less for this, something like >20, <20 but >50, etc.

When it comes to evolution (most likely occuring when the unit levels), you will need triggers to detect the levels of all the different integers and use them to decide what bonus attributes the unit gets, what spells and what unit it changes into.

It isn't really a hard concept to adapt, it's just a time consuming one because depending on how many different types of attacks and spells you want to influence the evolution is going to determine how many different triggers and integers you will need to manipulate and implement.

 

[burnedevil]

you wouldn't need to base the evolution off damage done, or amount healed. Just base it off the number of attacks a unit makes, as well as amount of times a unit casts a healing spell.

Create integer variable arrays for all the possible skills that affect evolution, with the array being the amount of players.

For example, create an integer array for attacking. You could call it 'damage[player number of owner of triggering unit]' and every time a unit attacks another unit you add +1 to the integer. Then when it comes to evolution, check if the integer is >100, <100 but >200, <200 but >300, etc. For each different range of numbers it can affect the unit differently.

Same with spells, just create an integer array for a specific spell, and when the unit casts the spell it increases the integer by 1. the ranges would be less for this, something like >20, <20 but >50, etc.

When it comes to evolution (most likely occuring when the unit levels), you will need triggers to detect the levels of all the different integers and use them to decide what bonus attributes the unit gets, what spells and what unit it changes into.

It isn't really a hard concept to adapt, it's just a time consuming one because depending on how many different types of attacks and spells you want to influence the evolution is going to determine how many different triggers and integers you will need to manipulate and implement.

Indeed thats one way of doing it, but not as good as damage detection. Damage detection would create many more possibilities, but I quess its just too hard...oh well maybe simple is best after all.

 

[Herman]

This would be sick, if you were to finish it...

 

[Kingcools]

wrong name: evolution does not work this way

 

[Herman]

Damaged vs. Attacked Event

you wouldn't need to base the evolution off damage done, or amount healed. Just base it off the number of attacks a unit makes, as well as amount of times a unit casts a healing spell.

Create integer variable arrays for all the possible skills that affect evolution, with the array being the amount of players.

For example, create an integer array for attacking. You could call it 'damage[player number of owner of triggering unit]' and every time a unit attacks another unit you add +1 to the integer. Then when it comes to evolution, check if the integer is >100, <100 but >200, <200 but >300, etc. For each different range of numbers it can affect the unit differently.

Same with spells, just create an integer array for a specific spell, and when the unit casts the spell it increases the integer by 1. the ranges would be less for this, something like >20, <20 but >50, etc.

When it comes to evolution (most likely occuring when the unit levels), you will need triggers to detect the levels of all the different integers and use them to decide what bonus attributes the unit gets, what spells and what unit it changes into.

It isn't really a hard concept to adapt, it's just a time consuming one because depending on how many different types of attacks and spells you want to influence the evolution is going to determine how many different triggers and integers you will need to manipulate and implement.

Almost everything on wc3 must never run off of the unit is attacked event, because players often figure this out, and then spam the attack, by pressing "S" at the same time ("S" is the hotkey for "Stop"), what this does, is the unit was ordered to attack, so the triggers still happen, but no attack, thus the user can spam the attack event, while avoiding the normal attack cooldown

The same thing happens when users spam the "Begins Casting a Spell" event

 

[MurderMode]

Almost everything on wc3 must never run off of the unit is attacked event, because players often figure this out, and then spam the attack, by pressing "S" at the same time ("S" is the hotkey for "Stop"), what this does, is the unit was ordered to attack, so the triggers still happen, but no attack, thus the user can spam the attack event, while avoiding the normal attack cooldown

The same thing happens when users spam the "Begins Casting a Spell" event

That is interesting you said that, but I don't think it is correct. A unit would have to be attacked and take damage for the trigger to work, because the event is 'unit is attacked' not 'unit is given an order targetting a unit'. Same with the spells, you dont use 'unit begins casting an ability' you use 'unit starts the effect of an ability' meaning the ability has already begun, so if there even was a chance of spamming it then the cooldown wouldn't allow it to happen.

And to the guy who said evolution doesn't work that way, it does. Organic creatures change over time to suit their environment, their habits etc. Quite simply you can liken it to how people who live in a colder environment deal with the cold better then someone who is from a warmer environment. They adapt to their circumstance, much like evolution is adaptation to circumstance but on a much larger scale.

It's application to this game is just faster and fantasy based. If a player is going to constantly cast a fire spell then they are going to evolve along the lines of a fire caster.

 

[Herman]

@MurderMode - Don't believe me!?!?!?!? Thats like GUI 101, if you don't belive me, try it out yourself....

And btw, it actually IS checking for the order, not the taking of damage, the taking of damage is the event that checks for damage taken

 

[MurderMode]

@MurderMode - Don't believe me!?!?!?!? Thats like GUI 101, if you don't belive me, try it out yourself....

And btw, it actually IS checking for the order, not the taking of damage, the taking of damage is the event that checks for damage taken

Um, why argue something so forcefully when you have no idea about it? 'a unit is attacked' IS the 'taking of damage' event, because there IS no 'taking of damage' event in GUI.

And btw, it actually ISN'T checking for the order, because that is was 'a unit is given an order' events are all about. It IS checking that the attack order has been successful.

Now, unlike you, to back up my claim I actually tested it instead of telling someone else to.

Damage Recorder
    Events
        Unit - A unit Is attacked
    Conditions
    Actions
        Set attackinteger = (attackinteger + 1)
        Game - Display to (All players) for 5.00 seconds the text: (String(attackinteger))

Guess what? every time the unit attacked successfully the integer went up, and no matter how hard I tryed to spam an attack, it never fired off unless the order actually happened.

So instead of making claims that are going to confuse people, try out your theory first and post later.

 

[Herman]

....wow, you really don't have a clue as to what your talking about

Ok, fine don't wanna listen to me?, make a map based off of "unit is attacked" and host it on b.net, go through all that trouble to make a great map, and find people exploiting it

You probably didn't even do it correcly, you click, and then as soon as you click press "S" you will notice it will register as an attack, but no attack will happen

Btw, how the fuck am I suppose to prove it to you??? Make a fucking video of me spamming an attack or a spell???, Fuck that I have better things to do, sooner or later your gonna need to learn it the hard if you don't wanna listen to me... and its gonna suck


btw, are you retarded??? there IIIISSS a unit event for taking damage in GUI, it is a specific unit event, and in order to utilize it you need to build a system, HENCE WHY THEY CALL IT A DAMAGE DETECTION SYSTEM!!!!

damn....

 

[MurderMode]

lol... I just said I tryed it out, I posted the trigger I used and it couldn't be manipulated in any way. So you don't need to prove anything to me. What you are describing is if the trigger was based upon the event 'a unit is given an order targeting a unit' with the condition being 'issued order is equal to attack'. You don't even need to argue with me or turn this into a flame thread, this is someones project.

All I did was post a suggestion for the system, then you forced me to back up my suggestion. I did, it works, it can't be manipulated, so using an attack as an area of evolution is a possibility. It makes more sense then using damage for evolution because it doesn't matter who the stronger opponent is, they will evolve based on the fact that they get into the action more often and attack faster. Evolution can be likened to the idea that one is adapting to their current circumstance (for future development and ease of survival), so the more they frequent that circumstance then they will evolve to adapt accordingly. Just like a fighter in real life, if you maximise your fighting experience and increase your effectiveness and ability (ie in the games case speed) you will have a better chance of becoming top dog in the ring (and don't argue this fact either, I'm aware their are other variables that determine the victor, I've been there and done that).

So yeah, if my suggestion really upsets you that much PM me, fuck, maybe you should even create a tutorial on the subject with your godlike knowledge, or maybe you could just do the right thing and instead of whinging so much you could create a better system and post it here to help the guy out.

... and don't try tell me you have better things to do, people who have better things to do don't waste time spamming useless flame threads on the internet. Stop wasting everyone's time with your interweb power trip unless you have something useful and credible to say.

edit: oh and I know there is the damage taken event, I was thinking from the generic p.o.v. I was testing the 'unit is attacked' event that apparently only works on my computer.

 

[Herman]

*ugh*

Ok sure, your suggestion wasn't bad, your cluelessness on how the GUI event functions fine, but your ignorance + arrogance makes me want to break your legs

I can deal with ignorance
I can deal with arrogance
Put them together, I can't stand it

Its not a problem in the code... I thought maybe you would've figureed that out already, its a problem with how the game runs, you can stop an attack and still get the event out of it, and is even able to be spammed

And yeah, I don't know about you but gee I'd love to spend 30minutes on making a video of someretarded thing you are too ignorant to understand

I'm not gonna talk about this anymore, your fuckin' hopeless

EDIT

Maybe I should make a tutorial to prevent morons from bringing this shit up again

 

[MurderMode]

*ugh*

Ok sure, your suggestion wasn't bad, your cluelessness on how the GUI event functions fine, but your ignorance + arrogance makes me want to break your legs

Break my legs? Wtf you truly are an internet power tripper, lol! Have you ever broken someones legs before, or do you just say those kind of things to let of steam? never mind that, I already know the answer ;O

I can deal with ignorance
I can deal with arrogance
Put them together, I can't stand it

I hate to sound lame and cliched, but you are only refering to yourself. I'm neither ignorant nor arrogant. I did not ignore what you said, I specifically tested it after you brought it up... and I am in no way arrogant, if my findings proved you to be correct I would admit it. Unfortunately for you, they didn't. Unfortunately for you, you did not try my example trigger which proves your ignorance. Unfortunately for you, you continue to argue with out providing any proof which makes you arrogant. But I mean I didn't need to tell you that, the dictionary could of. Besides, noone even cares what the Capt. of Interwebpowertripping can or can't stand.

Its not a problem in the code... I thought maybe you would've figureed that out already, its a problem with how the game runs, you can stop an attack and still get the event out of it, and is even able to be spammed

I told you, I had tested it. I had tried stopping it. I had tried spamming it. The integer didn't increase. What else can I say? (hell, I even explained to you the method to get the result you are describing)

I'm not gonna talk about this anymore

good.

On a supremely more important note, have you had any success with implementing a system yet burnedevil?

 

[burnedevil]

On a supremely more important note, have you had any success with implementing a system yet burnedevil?

Iv done something but its far from being ready and not yet sure will it be good or bad.

 

[burnedevil]

Well ill share with you what iv come up with, If someone could make it better.

• Events
  • Map initialization
• Actions
  • Unit Group - Pick every unit in (Units in (Playable map area)) and do (Actions)
    • Loop - Actions
      • Set Units_group = (Last created unit group)
      • For each (Integer A) from 1 to (Number of units in Units_group), do (Actions)
        • Loop - Actions
          • Unit Group - Pick every unit in (Random 1 units from Units_group) and do (Actions)
            • Loop - Actions
              • Set Damage_Heal_Detect[(Custom value of (Picked unit))] = (Life of (Picked unit))
              • Unit Group - Remove (Picked unit) from Units_group

Doesnt work, but uhh uhh dunno what to do, just trying something

• Events
  • Unit - A unit Is attacked
• Actions
  • Set Damage_caused[(Custom value of (Attacking unit))] = (Damage_caused[(Custom value of (Attacking unit))] + ((Life of (Attacked unit)) - Damage_Heal_Detect[(Custom value of (Attacked unit))]))
  • Floating Text - Create floating text that reads ((String(Damage_caused[(Custom value of (Attacking unit))])) + Damage) at (Position of (Attacking unit)) with Z offset 0.00, using font size 10.00, color (100.00%, 100.00%, 100.00%), and 0.00% transparency
  • Floating Text - Create floating text that reads ((String(Damage_Heal_Detect[(Custom value of (Attacked unit))])) + Health) at ((Position of (Attacking unit)) offset by 200.00 towards 0.00 degrees) with Z offset 0.00, using font size 10.00, color (100.00%, 100.00%, 100.00%), and 0.00% transparency
  • Set Damage_Heal_Detect[(Custom value of (Attacking unit))] = (Life of (Attacked unit))

I know it leaks and doesnt work too good, but im just trying to do something, but dunno how yet.

 

[Formula1]

I like this Idea alot
Its very simple and to the point

I have a feeling this would be better off a "custom hero" type situation rather then forcing Melee users to get melee spells

 

[Zack1996]

This concept is somewhat like that of Aeon of Dominion, cast spells to level spell, but this make them evolve instead.
PS, the trigger above doesn't work for obvious reasons (spells and other sources of damage, also quite buggy)

 

[ZeU-]

I got very weird idea and dunno if its any good so i just post it here to see what people think.

Idea: Aos map. You start with hero (can choose ranged,melee + select few atrribute bonuses). Hero has few gategories of spells. (heal area, heal target, support spells, damage target, damage area, passive. Your gameplay will affect what kind of spells will your hero gain later levels.

What I think of this map:

pros:
+Unique

Dude maps of this kind had been done before , and they were based on HvO and evolving I know what you mean but it has been done before.

 

[burnedevil]

Well i got some working systems now...i can detect when unit is damaged and how much unit is damaged.

Now need ideas how the evolution should work.

Iv been thinking of something like this:
You choose either Fighter(str), Fighter(agi), Mage(int) or AllAround(no starting skills) and they all have different kinds of starting abilities.

Fighters(str) would mainly gain low range spells when evolving
Fighters(str) would gain mainly single target spells when evolving
Fighters(mage) would gain area spells when evolving.

I really could use ideas for the systems in evolution.

 

[Formula1]

Let Me Help you with this... I think I'm following your train of thought...
You also said this might take a while... If I were to help.... thats less time.... theoretically...

I'll give you some ideas as teasers... But I can tell you right now.... THese are merely the beggining


Heres the ideas....
Agility-For those that have quick Keyboard fingers and mouse hands.... but... Arent that Damaging.... You act as a mosquito....
Strength-The One Unit that should be feared most in the Game.... The kind of unit that is a puzzle to work with... And Can add a decent boost to allys making them something to fear as well... You don't have to be a good player to use a strength oriented character... You just have to play.... and be bold when you play....
Intelligence-You must make good Mana Decisions, Make sure your targeting the right units with your spells and Watching your allys to make sure they are taken care of.
All Around-Uses Tools that you get better with... You must focus on making sure your unit has enough mana.... Allows you to have quickness.... while still being something to fear naturally....


I'd like to point out.... A unit of true skill would be the Wisdom + Agility Unit.... While The Strength unit would just be a noobafied tool that is very good at being a tool...

With wisdom + Agility.... You have to make sure you making wise decisions while every second that your unit exsists.... you have a moment to make a move

And then...
Wisdom+strength were for those that are not good at managing freindlies and themselves at the same time.... but want to....
Agility+Strength are for those that aren't very Quick with movements.... but want to....


I have many more Ideas.... But I want to know that I am included in this project.... because I could just make another map with them....

 

[burnedevil]

Let Me Help you with this... I think I'm following your train of thought...
You also said this might take a while... If I were to help.... thats less time.... theoretically...

I'll give you some ideas as teasers... But I can tell you right now.... THese are merely the beggining


Heres the ideas....
Agility-For those that have quick Keyboard fingers and mouse hands.... but... Arent that Damaging.... You act as a mosquito....
Strength-The One Unit that should be feared most in the Game.... The kind of unit that is a puzzle to work with... And Can add a decent boost to allys making them something to fear as well... You don't have to be a good player to use a strength oriented character... You just have to play.... and be bold when you play....
Intelligence-You must make good Mana Decisions, Make sure your targeting the right units with your spells and Watching your allys to make sure they are taken care of.
All Around-Uses Tools that you get better with... You must focus on making sure your unit has enough mana.... Allows you to have quickness.... while still being something to fear naturally....


I'd like to point out.... A unit of true skill would be the Wisdom + Agility Unit.... While The Strength unit would just be a noobafied tool that is very good at being a tool...

With wisdom + Agility.... You have to make sure you making wise decisions while every second that your unit exsists.... you have a moment to make a move

And then...
Wisdom+strength were for those that are not good at managing freindlies and themselves at the same time.... but want to....
Agility+Strength are for those that aren't very Quick with movements.... but want to....


I have many more Ideas.... But I want to know that I am included in this project.... because I could just make another map with them....

Well im happy if people would join to this project, but At this point this map is still in development. Its hard to say if this can be done in a good way (since i dont know even jass, alltought one trigger is half jassed). So It is ok to share my map or give credits to people.

Your ideas are indeed teasers since they dont give example what would it be like in real map? short cooldown spells for agility i presume? Well not too bad for idea, but is there even way to shorten cooldown with agility? Oh well, its good that you atleast post some suggestions.

The system should have large variety of differend evolutions, so it seems pretty hard to me. At this point these following would affect evolution: Unit is atacked(takes damage), hero takes damage(amount), spell is casted.

Im also thinking of system that would count how much hero travels, but it should be something that couldnt be abused.

 

[Formula1]

Yeah... You can change it with Engineering Upgrade...
-Or Remove ability, Add ability.... with standard triggs
--When hero's agility hits 20-Remove X ability and give Y ability

I would base the abilities off (amoung other shit)
-Move into battle/Retreat/Chase
-Damage
-Recieve damage

 

[Kwah]

This should be fairly doable. Also I would recommend trying to use a weighted system for (creeps?). Simply start with multipe ways of attack (ie: charging, zigzagging, running away then charging. . . and so on) and randomly select one. Then Whichever attakc style deals more damage add "wieght" (chance to use that attack). After A while the creeps would become better at destroying the strategy you were using. This would ass to the kinda realism that you are tyring to achieve. Unfortunalty it would also take a looooong time to do well. Any way think about it. This system is also better for an RGP than an AOS.

 

[Kwah]

I have an idea to add to the "realism" of the map. For the creep AI's you should use a weighted system. You have a group of pre-programmed attacks (ie: charge, zigzag, cast spell. .. ) and you randomly select one and execute that attacks. Then the damage is recorded and the chance is increased. This produces a realistic "learning" effect. This is not necessarily good for an AOS map but it might be good anyways. Not sure how to actually do it but. . . you might.

 

[burnedevil]

I have an idea to add to the "realism" of the map. For the creep AI's you should use a weighted system. You have a group of pre-programmed attacks (ie: charge, zigzag, cast spell. .. ) and you randomly select one and execute that attacks. Then the damage is recorded and the chance is increased. This produces a realistic "learning" effect. This is not necessarily good for an AOS map but it might be good anyways. Not sure how to actually do it but. . . you might.

Its a good idea...but im still strugling with the evolution on heroes. Iv been thinking of something like this (with help from formul):

You got two forms defence/attack. Not sure if it can be done with bear form, since it would be troublesome to evolve both for spells(maybe).

The most troublesome thing is how should spells evolve. I think when you level up you gain one level to some spell. when you reach certain level your spell evolves. But if you cast spell like shockwave and starfall what could the spells evolve to? I dont think its too good to evolve them "randomly". but the spells should be somewhat similar what heros used.

Well more i think about it...more impossible this sounds to me. But keep posting ideas, maybe we will get somewhere someday.

 

[Formula1]

Its a good idea...but im still strugling with the evolution on heroes. Iv been thinking of something like this (with help from formul):

You got two forms defence/attack. Not sure if it can be done with bear form, since it would be troublesome to evolve both for spells(maybe).

The most troublesome thing is how should spells evolve. I think when you level up you gain one level to some spell. when you reach certain level your spell evolves. But if you cast spell like shockwave and starfall what could the spells evolve to? I dont think its too good to evolve them "randomly". but the spells should be somewhat similar what heros used.

Well more i think about it...more impossible this sounds to me. But keep posting ideas, maybe we will get somewhere someday.

Fok it...........
1 hero

Charm
Movement Spells- Sprint/Blink/WIndwalk (not as fast as sprint)/Transform (into animal which oes fast but has no attack)
(infinite Range?) SIngle unit attack Spells- FInger of Pain
(Infinite Range?) SIngle unit heal Spells- Holy Light
Chain attack Spells-Chain Lightning
Chain Heal Spells-Healing Wave
Multi Unit Attack Spell-FOrked Lighting/Breath o' Fire
Multi Unit Heal Spell-Breath o' Frost/Forked Lightning/Carion/Crushing Wave
AoE Attack Spells-Inferno with no Spawning unit
AoE DIstance Heal Spells-Inferno with no spawning unit, negative damage values and different casting ID
Untargeting Attack Spell-Warstomp -> damage over time?
Untargeting Heal Spell-THunderclap with negative damage (I could do this for you no prob) -> Healing over time?
Autocast Attack SPell- Searing Arrows (+5) -> Parasite (+5 over 5 seconds)
Autocast Heal Spell-Heal -> HEaling over time

Others...
-Auras-Lazy People (Movement Aura/Healing Aura/Damage dealing Aura)
-Passive Abilities-Lazy People (stuff)


Heres Some Spells I think would be kinda Neat (Health Sucking) A way to balance it is to make every other spell do its impact all at once while this would be over time....
-Locust Swarm-Works Very Well when many units are around (1-3 Locusts can swarm 1 unti at a time) But its not as good one on one)
-Life Drain-Decent for stealing Life From a Hero, Probably won't kill but will keep you alive and better off after completed.... hopefully....

I suppose each hero with these Basic things would evolve ranging from
-Summons-Army Creators
-Life Steal-TAnks
-Damage ovr time-Damage Dealers
-Healing over time-Healers


And then Items Could Be stuns which are expensive... but worth it....

 

[burnedevil]

*sight....my last post not showing for some reason...so ill just shorten things that i wrote before.

Formula that really doesnt give idea how it would evolve, but im thinking of something like everry level you gain, one of your spells would evolve/level up.

How should the spells evolve? what should be starting spells? those two are maybe the biggest problem.

Even tought you can detect damage and such..how should it evolve?
example:
starting spells:
shockwave
war stomp
holy light
rain of fire

Maybe two factors should count on evolving the spell?
example:

shockwave + damage done is high --> double shockwave?
shockwave + warstomp --> impale with warstomp effect?
shockwave + holy light --> either levels up sw/hl

and they would need to evolve even further after that...so major brainstorm for spells/system is needed.

 

[Kwah]

Hmmm. . . I have an idea. Perhaps to make the creeps more intelligent you shold use a wheigted attack system. What I mean is that they have a selection of attaks (ie: Charge, Run Away then Charge, Zig-Zag charge. . . etc.) which are randomly selected then used. The attack types which deals the most damage then gains "weight" (chance to use) this means that eventually the creeps begin to learn. This may not be for this but it would add to the "realism"

 

[Formula1]

Looks like you have the system you want....
Shockwave + Warstomp = Impale sounds like sort of thng your looking for

Heres What I'm thinking...

Starting Spells
-Finger of Pain
-Blink
-Holy Light
-Summon

You would detect how many times each spell is casted and upgrade/downgrade depending...
-If it was used alot... then it turns more into an interactive ability....
-If it wasn't used alot... then it turns into more of a passive ability

4) Most Interactive
-Spawn a Teleport ward that can cast Mass Teleportation and Teleport Ward (this allows movement to wherever you want
3) Retrieve Ward-Casting of 10000 yards Spawn unit and tell unit to cast Retrieve (Roar) and your unit teleports where you casted it
2) Blink-Teleport within 1000 yards
1) Sprint-When casted increase your Heroes Speed
0) Least Interactive
-Passive Speed Boost-Item increase Speed

As for Attack Spells
4) Serpent Ward-Your ward can cast Finger of Pain
3) Elephant Ward-Your ward can cast Warstomp
2) Finger of Pain or Shockwave or Chain Lightning-Target enemy and attack
1) Warstomp-When pressed deals damage around player
0) Damage Aura-Deals damage over time

As for Healing Spells
4) Holy Ward-Ward that can cast holy Light
3) Helper Ward-Ward that can cast negative damage Warstomp
2) Holy light or Healing wave or Negative damage abilities
1) Warstomp with negative damage
0) Healing Aura-Heals Allies over time

Personally.... I would Make this a custom Hero type thing...
-Not set heroes but you can select your abilities before hand and you go into the playground
--Or you can choose random Hero

I'd prolly also include as the Hero Leveling Abilities
-Evolve attack Spell
-Evolve Healing Spell
-Evolve Movement Spell-If you didn't use it much... it will turn into more of a passive ability... If you used it alot it will turn into a very active ability....
-Upgrade Spells-This would make your spells better and the less evolved your spells are... the stronger they are per upgrade (Engineering Upgrade)
-Attribute Bonus-Obvious (Just so people feel like they have a little more Health or Mana to Work with)


Again...
-If people want to make their Abilities more interactive.... they use them alot and evolve
--If they want to make them have less cooldown and Mana they upgrade them
-If they want their abilities to be less interactive they don't use them and evolve them



Be careful with Stun spells
-Stun spells can ruin a map-Especially a map with tomes

If you want some sort of stun spell... I would go for a Blowback spell instead...

Hopefully this doesn't feel like too much...
-I'd help you with some of this if you need it...

 

[burnedevil]

Formula thanks again for suggestions. Here is my feedback on your ideas.

+ Turning spells active/passive kinda cool idea
- Turning spells active/passive doesnt give too much evolution space if used like in your examples. And i dont like wards too much.

But maybe iv got something I could start working on. The passive/active might work good.

I really would like to make map with starting hero is same, but it might be a bit impossible after all. I dont have much time next week, but maybe i can still make something.

 

[Kwah]

Hmmm, I have tried to post this three times before but it has not showed up yet. So here we go again. For creep AI's I suggest using a weghted system. This means that their are a group of attack types (ie: Charge, Run Then Charge, Zig-Zag. . . etc.) which are randomly selected to use. THen whichever attack deals the most damage gains "weight" (Chance to select the attack. I am not completley sure how this would be implemented but perhaps you know. ALthough this might seem kinda hard to do I think that it would add to the "realsim of your map. Also it would match the evolution theme.

 

[Formula1]

Hmmm, I have tried to post this three times before but it has not showed up yet. So here we go again. For creep AI's I suggest using a weghted system. This means that their are a group of attack types (ie: Charge, Run Then Charge, Zig-Zag. . . etc.) which are randomly selected to use. THen whichever attack deals the most damage gains "weight" (Chance to select the attack. I am not completley sure how this would be implemented but perhaps you know. ALthough this might seem kinda hard to do I think that it would add to the "realsim of your map. Also it would match the evolution theme.

Oh... we've seen it meng
I just haven't looked at it.....
-From my understanding... creeps don't stay alive to long.... so...... I dunno if that would be useful or not.....

However... I like the concept of a realistic AI...
I don't quite understand by different attack types... COuld you explain that further?

Formula thanks again for suggestions. Here is my feedback on your ideas.

+ Turning spells active/passive kinda cool idea
- Turning spells active/passive doesnt give too much evolution space if used like in your examples. And i dont like wards too much.

But maybe iv got something I could start working on. The passive/active might work good.

I really would like to make map with starting hero is same, but it might be a bit impossible after all. I dont have much time next week, but maybe i can still make something.

The wards are for the people who want to get complex...
-While the standard attacks are for people who don't do too much....

Its just the way you evolve... If you wnat things more complex... Evolve... if not... just upgrade....
Its like changing spells into different playing styles

Its very possible to make a starting Hero the same....

Heres a lil concept map I made... Took me about 2 hours or so...
its still messed up... but... It can be tweaked a bit....

TO see every type of evolution your gunna have to Restart the map...
-I tried to Reset the variables after you Researched bash... but.... for some reaon that led to Unholy aura being the only available thing...

Which I'm also a fan of....
-Once you reach passive... theres no going back....

 

[Master334]

make it a good one, lots of heros lots of spells, i am neutral on this idea

 

[burnedevil]

Formula I dont see how the system should work from your map (alltought i get the idea).

Anyways I think im going to make this kind of system:
You will evolve your most used spell based on how much you have made damage or taken damage. Making certain number of damage spells or atacking units will evolve you to more offensive side and using healing spells and taking damage will evolve you to defensive side.

Starting spells should be somewhat weak and when you evolve your spells it should be somewhat more powerfull or usefull than last spell.

Also im not sure how far you could evolve your favourite spell..maybe like 3 stages max evolution to same spell...then you have to evolve another spell even if you dont want. and there should be atleast like 6 evolution stages on each spell. Each spell could evolve to atleast two differend spells for starters. That would create quite large number of possible combinations. Maybe even too much combinations. If you count it would be for one spell 1sEvolution: 2spells 2ndEvolution: 4spells 3rdEvolution 8spells etc....so 4x8 = 32 differend spell possibilities on 3rdEvolution already if every spell reaches that level.

So maybe just just pursue the 3rdstageEvolution plan from now?

Also the starting spells must be so weak that later level spells wont get rigged. Of course that doesnt matter if all spells become yberly powerfull.

Starting spells:
+damage caused
--> Rain of fire (non channeling)
Finger of death
--> Death coil
+damage taken

--------------------------------------------------------
+damage caused
--> Purification (damage/heal spell)
Holy light
--> Rejuvanation
+damage taken

--------------------------------------------------------
+damage caused
--> flamethrower(channeling, fast damage spell)
Berserk
+damage taken
--> Blink

---------------------------------------------------------
+damage caused
--> Frost nova
Thunderclap
+damage taken
--> War stomp


The post doesnt display 100% what i wanted it to look like but --> means evolution of spell. I think people should know what i mean.

 

[Formula1]

That could work out.......
Evolution could happen in a bunch of ways
-Maximum Damage-Deal more Damage
-Taking Damage-Heal
-Using Spell A bunch of Times-Lowever Cooldown
-Taking advantage of Splash (Target Ground instead of Target Unit)
-Run-Escape Spells
-Targeting things outside direct range-Increase Distance of spell

Then... Increase level to make use more Mana but become stronger...



You saw from my map you NEVER had to stop evolving your spell.....
-It was all dependent on how long you kept it around....

I mean... When it comes down to it... Its your choice....
I'll still help you a bit so long as I know you'll help me out later on.....

 

[burnedevil]

Ok i tried doing the system...and it turns out its pretty hard im gona try finishing it later. If anyone has got good ideas how the triggers should run pls tell me.

Now im trying to create triggers that would
1: Detect wich spell is most casted
2: Detect witch is higher - attacks done + damage spells cast OR damage taken/10 + heal spells cast
3: Evolve the spell as I described in my previous post. Evolve what spell is most casted and evolve to EITHER damage spell or healing spell.

I hope you get what im saying. And also hope you could help. Maybe ill post my needs to triggers and systems section later when i have time to get some more attension.

The detection itself aint hard, but when you add the 3rd trigger to it it becomes pretty troublesome.
(i have attack + damage taken + spell casted systems)

 

[Formula1]

Ok i tried doing the system...and it turns out its pretty hard im gona try finishing it later. If anyone has got good ideas how the triggers should run pls tell me.

Now im trying to create triggers that would
1: Detect wich spell is most casted
2: Detect witch is higher - attacks done + damage spells cast OR damage taken/10 + heal spells cast
3: Evolve the spell as I described in my previous post. Evolve what spell is most casted and evolve to EITHER damage spell or healing spell.

I hope you get what im saying. And also hope you could help. Maybe ill post my needs to triggers and systems section later when i have time to get some more attension.

The detection itself aint hard, but when you add the 3rd trigger to it it becomes pretty troublesome.
(i have attack + damage taken + spell casted systems)

Would the evolution be based off a hero ability, Leveling up or when the spell is casted X amount of times?
I didn't catch that...

 

[burnedevil]

Would the evolution be based off a hero ability, Leveling up or when the spell is casted X amount of times?
I didn't catch that...

Evolution would ba based on: spells casted, damage taken, attacks(damaged)

Evolution would happen every level or every 2nd level? not really sure about this but if it happens fast it makes the map more interesting.

 

[Formula1]

Evolution would ba based on: spells casted, damage taken, attacks(damaged)

Evolution would happen every level or every 2nd level? not really sure about this but if it happens fast it makes the map more interesting.

Well u saw how I worked with the hero ability
You could also base it off an actual Spell that every hero has..........
-That way everyone could evolve whatever ability they want....

The way evolve can work is in a bunch of different ways for hero abilities...
-But if your going to seperate the abilities into catagories like; Heal, Damage, Runaway, Stun

You could make a spellbook with the following spells
-Evove heal spell
-Evolve attack spell
-Evolve Run Spell
-Evolve Summon Spell

The Triggers would work like this...
-Cast Evolve Heal spell
--Conditions: Whatever conditions you unit met to make it evolve to a new ability
---Actions:
-Delete (Currentheal [variable]) for hero
-Give hero (evolved ability)
-Set (evolved ability) to Currentheal

So people can evolve at anytime they like....

Spell Evolutions...
-Area of Effect- ChainLightning -> Flamestrike
-Casting Distance- Shockwave/breath o' Awesomeness -> Warstomp
-Not Casting-Auto Cast -> Passive

Thinking about it now... I would probably make the the first spell based off Frost nova
-If people use its AoE aspec more the next evo turn to a
-If People Cast it really close it turns more into a Shockwave
-If people don't cast it much then it'll turn into autocast where people don't have to think about it...

ANd then as Hero Abilities they would all be engineering upgrades
-Lessening cooldowns
-Adding Slow Effects to your Abilities
-Adding Fire Effects to your abilities

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm really involved....
-This map idea was similar to one I had a while back....
--And I want to see it Become Real...

These ideas are just thoughts.... I want to make this Map the best it can be....
Look at the concepts more then the actual abilities...
-The ability list can be changed.... the concepts are the important part...