Europe: The Art of War

[Reaper51]

I'm back guys, was on a mapping spree to get the alpha for my map finished.

What plans you have for testing?

 

[SasuhKun]

After Goffterdom finish up a veeeeery basic map of AoW, he'll test just between us, Hivers. So we're trying to see who will be able to play at that time, asking said person's GMT, etc.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Okay. I'll see if I can.

 

[Goffterdom]

Here are the systems I will try to implement in the first map:
Moral Break System
Unit Ranking
Heroes
Basic Tax System
Basic Trade System
Some of the Diplomatical Profiles available

 

[SasuhKun]

I think it is playable, even though without Ship System, which was a bit vital to me. Actually, it is pretty much a remake of Lords of Europe, which by itself was really good already. So it is playable! The better fact is, that the alpha alpha version is already somewhat a Lords of Europe, meaning that it will get a lot better! (By this I don't mean that Lords of Europe was basic or bad, because you know that when I first played it it was love at first sight. But it is like changing from Playstation 2 to Playstation 3, you know? You just love the previous one, but the last one is just better and that's it.

Also, you should edit the first post. The things that you must edit are already pretty obvious, although just a reminder: Don't forget trading the Unique Unit's hidden tag from the main post to the Idea's, with Trillium suggestions of Knights of Honour.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Hmm... Ship system is quite important, though.

 

[Nightblade]

Bump...u there gott?

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Is Moral the mana?

 

[SasuhKun]

In normal military units. Generals and such are too... Confident to have moral. (And they have spells!)

Or maybe as a matter of realism, they do have moral, a LOT by the way, and they do not use mana. The only thing stopping them from using spells is... Their cooldown!

 

[Nightblade]

Where is gottferdom?

 

[SasuhKun]

Just who knows >_>

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Do they have some weaknesses too?

 

[SasuhKun]

Weaknesses? Interesting... I never though of that. Although it does not make much sense since they're endured and all that, but they're supposed to just be the best there is. Perhaps other heroes?

 

[Comrade.Rat]

How about adding more nations of Europe? after all, around 1000 AD there were a lot of countries in Europe. I think would be cool to add
--- Tzardom of Bulgaria (it was orthodox christian centre of the Balkans until it gets conquered by the Ottomans)
+should be added 1-2 more towns for balkans)
--- Khazar Khanate ( or for later ages Golden Horde, should be located to far east, between Duchy of Moscow and Kievan Russ.)
+should be added 1-2 more towns for russian lands
--- Ireland as independent nation

All said above is based on the old 3.0 Lords of Europe.
Also, when the new map will be released? Gonna be great fun. I mostly like the Dimplomacy changes like Vassalage and Revolt. Very realistic )
Keep on making the map even better!

 

[Nightblade]

Earlier posts reveal that there is simply not enough space on the map for your nations.Sorry dude..

 

[Sajtoskefley]

In normal military units. Generals and such are too... Confident to have moral. (And they have spells!)

Or maybe as a matter of realism, they do have moral, a LOT by the way, and they do not use mana. The only thing stopping them from using spells is... Their cooldown!

Why? Heroes in IRL use mana?
Then just cooldown.

 

[Gallin]

So is this still going on?

 

[SasuhKun]

It is always going on, a slow rate. Goffterdom just vanishes from time to time. Accept that >_> I do hope that the real game will be worth the wait.

 

[Coliandro]

Damn it!
And i thought this thread was dead and stopped looking for quite a long time.
You still need another betatester?

I haven't read everything carefully within the last 10 pages, just some new thoughts which I hope haven't been mentioned already:

I read often times people here saying that stuff like pike-man > cavalry or cavalry > archers, and I have to say from a realistic point of view that's too simple. Every battle is like a choreography, and so often it doesn't depend what your army holds as a weapon but more how they are positioned and how they react on enemies position.

Example: pike-man are only good vs cavalry if they stand in formation, their lances in the air when the cavalry rushes towards them, then they fuck them pretty badly though. If the cavalry gets into their side or back, there's no way the pike-man can win. even it's like 5 : 1 in numbers. Why? They block each other, a pike is no sword. You'll hit your comrades on the head, turn very slowly, can't really get a defensive position with the others. A part of them have to retreat and reformation. Pike-man are very defensive fighters, they're the best when enemies rush in them and the worst when enemies are in between them.

The next example: Archers vs cavalry.
Yeah, if cavalry stands in the middle of a group of archers, they can easily kill them even if they outmatch them by a factor of 10. But you can't say cavalry > archers.
If a group of cavalry rushes towards a group of archers, they will unleash a shitload of arrows on them, if not killing the knights (who are unlikely to carry shields) then at least the horses. And if you're a guy laying on the ground between the rest of your group and the enemy, you're fucked.

What i want to say with that?
I know it's hard to implement in stuff like the wc3 engine, but make the fights more about positioning, since that's really the key to victory.
Also make the unit-counters "real" unit-counters. Only to vary in damage and armor types doesn't quite hit it IMO.
Example:
No matter what armor type a spear-man has, an archer will fuck him since he has no shield.
A regular soldier with shield (and this should be regular, not only after upgrading a "defend" skill) on the other hand can push slowly towards the archers with very few losses. Maybe even implement different shield-types. E. g. with big ones you are good vs archers, small ones help in close combat to quickly block hits.
Also i think cavalry shouldn't only deal bonus damage to stuff like archers, they should seriously just walk over them and kill them. There's nothing an archer can do, and that's another point of cavalry, they are only good if you get them in the middle of the enemy, if you blindly rush towards archers and defensive pike-men they will just fuck you.

very long story short:
-make the game more about positioning (will be hard to implement)
-make counters feel more "realistic" (should be quite easily to implement)

Just a little "example battle" to show my point and how this stuff would play out strategically:

A defends a position, pike-men in front. B sends forward his archers to get them. A expected that and quickly swaps the pike-men with big shield soldiers. As B also tries to get his defensive position back, cavalry rushes into B's front side. There's a hole mess between archers and pike-men, the cavalry just runs over them and kills everything. The shield soldiers stand no chance vs the cavalry and just go down. Meanwhile B tried a desperate attack with his cavalry which he hold back to flank A, but since A really only needs his cavalry in the middle of the enemy he got his troops in a defensive position again. B's cavalry goes down like nothing, end of battle.
What do i want to show? Let's expect A and B have the exact same amount of troops and experience and weapons upgrades etc etc. In a "normal" strategy game both would just have attack-moved their stuff into the enemy. Ye, maybe they tried some flanking or stuff, but it really wouldn't have made a big difference.
While in my case B lost all his troops while A only lost part of his cavalry and maybe some spear-men.

I know positioning stuff like that is really hard to implement, but it really would make the battles more strategic and would give smart players an advantage even if they are behind in troop count. And let's be honest: Ye in LoE you have to make some troop counters etc., but basically it's a big economy fest and he who pumps out more troops can just overrun the enemy, no matter the positioning.

That's just something to think about from me, hope the map will develop fast and come out soon (or at least the beta )

Once again, English is not my native language so please excuse any mistakes.

 

[SasuhKun]

Yes, YES FINALLY SOMEONE WHO AGREE WITH ME! HAHAHAHAHAH

I totally agree with you my friend. I've actually made a post quite similar to yours, just not so long like yours. What could work is that instead of armor, the "Armor Types" would be the shield types! Big shield, small shield, shieldless, or heavy armor (makes it up for having no shield at all, but it is easily killed by archery, depending on the type of armor we're thinking.)

After ravaging through the pages, I've found what I was looking for. I also look forward upon your opinion on my suggestion of title!

2. Indeed. But I meant to not ONLY use that. I mean PRACTICAL uses! For instance, using the very same example, and basing on two units (Warrior[Which have rage] and Light Cavalry [Which have a extremely low attack... but high atk speed. AND a high "Trample", since they can pretty much attack while they move... That, AND the horse.]

"Sir, what are your orders?"
"Demonstrate our heavy cavalry and archers to our enemy, then let our archers shoot'em until they get close. As they come closer, the archers must run off, while the pikemen chases them off."
"Sir?! How do you know they're using pikemen, and what about the archers?!"
"Don't question me, Commander. Our light cavalry will them rush side by side and behind the pikemen, striking out as many as they can, without getting hit at all. Confused and demoralized, half of the lasting pikemen will feel the rage of our Warriors."
"Oh... I see Sir. Off we go."

See? Although Light Cavalry and Warriors are both weak against lance attacks, their potential practical uses plus some micro management would be just awesome to use. Besides, with that, strategy goes beyond than thinking what counter to use, got it? And if you see, all the great battles of history are only great because of one maneuveur such as this. It is what defines the supremacy of a nation, or in case, its general.



I don't have much time, so I'll only discuss the name.


- Come, my men! Let's make this land ours! - And the first words are spoken, as the young and naive commander march along his new conscripts.

As their forces begin to muster much more than just military power, more words appear.
- We require a alliance from you.
- How much will it cost?
- There are complications, sire...
Numbers, long and burocratic words, financial words, and so it goes.

Until a threat comes.

- So be it. This is war. -

And it threats to burn the entire work put on that now to-be great country.

Preparations are made, the troops are reunited, generals rise and fall, few skirmishes are made, until the greatest two of all armies finally meet in the battlefield.

And then there is a defining word, that shall put to test the supremacy of that very nation.

A word that define lifes, and alter destinies.

Before the "mortal armies rush blindly towards their doom," a last word is said.

CHARGE!

It's not dead right now, just... Sleeping. Goffterdom have a tendency of vanishing at times. Get used to it.

 

[Coliandro]

Ah nice you share my point, when just overflying the past pages must have missed that.
I think every unit should have an icon (just like "Fighting chances" in LoE) describing the units equipment, like how big the shield is or if they wear heavy armor etc.
And from that you should see if they take bonus damage or less damage or deal more damage to certain units.
E. g.: (numbers just chosen randomly, though i think it should be about that)
"Unit's equipment"
Big shield
-> Evades 80% of arrow attacks if they attack towards your front side, take 25% lower damage if the arrow hits from front side.
-> this unit moves 15% slower
-> This unit has a slower turn rate
-> Shield has less efficiency in close combat
Units with medium shields will be faster and better in close combat but also get more easily picked up by archers.
And ye, as you could read the angle from which they are attacked should play a role. Never got why in WC3 footman's could use the defend ability when fleeing from enemy archers and getting shot in the back. I think in general a unit's armor should drop drastically when being attacked from behind, especially vs cavalry.
And I think the bonus damage should be WAY bigger then in LoE. I think the bonus damage moves in the area of 50%? (Meaning that Pike-men do about 50% more damage to cavalry and archers 50% more to leather armor etc.).
An archer should do about 5 times damage to a non shielder with no crazy armor like full plate mail. (ye, beta testing will do the number's, it's just that i think it should REALLY be a counter. in LoE it's just too low IMO).

Also to apply to the positioning things, I think units should have basic formation abilities.
A group of Pike-men should have the "Defensive Formation" ability, they lift their spear up and can't move. Any cavalry just walking in should get heavy DPS (like 50 HP a sec, again just random numbers, though I think this would be good). So you would need tons of cavalry to bring down a small group of pike-men.
Soldier's should have the "Shield" ability, but not the one in LoE. Units should have this ability without needing a research. The ability is much like "defend", you move slower but block ranged attacks better (but only from the front side).
Archers should have something like a "Mass fire" ability. When selected they will just randomly shoot arrows in the selected Area, shooting faster but greater chance to miss. So it would be good vs masses of enemies rushing in but bad for picking out small groups or single units.
That's just some examples, but i think every unit should have 1 or 2 such abilities, just to make the game more about tactics and positioning.

Another point which really is important for me: (think it got already mentioned and planned by you though)
Make the map wider. There's too much narrow spaces on important places. E. g. between Byzantine and Greece or Egypt and Turks in LoE. Ye in real these spaces are narrow too, but if only 2 units can walk through it's too small, especially between capitals of cities. So I'd say make the "normal" map wider, but add some small back-stab ways, e. g. small paths in the mountains which can be blocked easily.

So much from me hope you guys like it.

 

[SasuhKun]

Your suggestions are great, but the only thing that stopped me from thinking things as that it is that they're too complicated to do it. Attacking from behind is possible, turn speed is not possible, however. Most of these things you said can be said by armor types and weapon types, as almost as good as what you're planning. And I do very much like the idea of high counters. Also suggested such abilities. And he planned that already.

 

[Coliandro]

Attacks from certain angles and turn rates are possible to implement, I don't know if you play DotA, but different angles play a big role with Bristleback and he takes reduced damage from certain angles.
The ability of Batrider, sticky napalm, slows enemies down and also reduces their turn rate, so this should be possible to implement too.

 

[SasuhKun]

Turn rate? Interesting. I never saw that, really.

 

[Gallin]

So has this died?

 

[SasuhKun]

It won't ever die. Just pass out until Goffterdom return from his... Personal trips.

 

[Gallin]

Any ETA on that?

 

[SasuhKun]

I remember seeing that ETA before, but do not record its meaning. Care to clarify my mind?

 

[Gallin]

Estimated time of arrival.

 

[SasuhKun]

Ah. It is really, really random. And you know that by personal trips, I meant his personal reasons for being AFK a lotta time.

 

[NWG_Jonas]

im not sure if it has been mentioned the swedish unqiue unit could be the caroline infatery or gustavian infatery (if tech with muskets are in the game)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroleans.

Otherwise the Hakkapeliitta cavalry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkapeliitta

if colinisation is in the game norway could have some bonus in that becouse of iceland and greenland and newfoundland that the vikings had discovered before christianity came to scandinavia.

 

[SasuhKun]

It's all noted up, thanks.

 

[Sajtoskefley]

You writed you need a better name to hungarian infanitryman. It don't have a special name (maybe gyalogos katona?) but there is an mercenary group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Army_of_Hungary.
So for name: Black Army Mercenary/Infanitry, and it can remove -1 or 2 gold/unit/tax, +20 moral. But as I said in the brainstorm thread, there can be Hussar or Horse Archer.
+1 idea: When we get a new age (like dark -> feudal) then that country gets a commander hero.

 

[Sajtoskefley]

An other idea: An archer aren't a god, they don't have infinite ammount of arrow. I think we need to reduce it to 100 and if they lost it they can buy more at the barracks or a city.

 

[Catch_ya]

What about having Denmark with Viking as unique unit?

 

[SasuhKun]

Good idea, Saj.

Catch__ya, Vikings weren't exclusive out of Denmark. As far as I know.

 

[Catch_ya]

Catch__ya, Vikings weren't exclusive out of Denmark. As far as I know.

Well they were from Denmark too, don't know much about them though I'm from Denmark myself but I'm pretty sure they came from Sweden and Norway too.

 

[SasuhKun]

That's my point. They wouldn't be a NATIONAL unit, just a regional one.

 

[Fingolfin]

I just have to ask;
this thread has so many posts and you seem to have discussed the contents of the map a lot, but -- is there actually anything done?
It would be pretty nice to see at least some screenshots of the terrain or map layout, perhaps a few prototype units, just soemthing that proves that the map is actually being worked on?

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, here's the situation: Right now, we're on one of Goffterdom's LONG pauses, so the thread is... Sleeping, to not say dead. He said he would only begin working on something after enough material to create a basic version. But recently, a bit before the pause, he agreed to begin producing a very basic version, just to have SOMETHING, like you suggested. What Goff's have ready is most of the useful things noted down somewhere, the terrain (he showed some screenshots), some models, and pretty much that.

 

[Sajtoskefley]

I think we need to nerf the ammount of gold/unit. Here is the translation of the letter from Mathias I to Ferdinand, king of Napoli. "(...) the first order is made by the heavy cavarly, they want 15 gold for every 1/4 year, with horse: The second order is made by the light cavarly, who we call hussars, they want 10 gold, for 1/4 year, with horse. The third order is made by the footmen, classified: Some are light footmen, others are heavy weaponed, and again and again, heavy shielded. (...)". Maybe the translation isn't perfect, it is from the same site again. (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fekete_sereg) (Black army.) English site is linked at my other post.

EDIT: Nvm. I made a list of my idea for Lords of Europe units...

-Militia: 3 gold
-Archer: 5 gold
-Man at arms (Footman): 7 gold
-Spec unit: 10 gold
-Feudal knight: 10 gold
-Skirmisher: 8 gold
-Pikeman: 10 gold
-Marauder: 15 gold
-Priest: 9 gold
-Crusader: 10 gold

These are only examples.
For the wood, I have no idea.

 

[Sajtoskefley]

Second idea: Regional units
Why do we use national units only? Why don't we put in the national barracks regional units, for example as Catch__ya's idea for Denmark, the vikings but it can be at more countries. Or for Europe's some country: The hussar.
Another idea about this: If you capture a capital (for example: Rome, Paris) you get Italy's unit.
And if we are here why can't we capture the enemy's capital? I mean you are XY country, you are at Feudal, the XYZ country (No, not HRM) and he is at Castel. You have 300 units and the enemy have only 123 and didn't build any trebutchets or anything. You take the enemy's capital, don't destroy it and you don't need to upgrade. (Only later)

 

[SasuhKun]

Hey. By fate I entered Hive today, and you posted... Yesterday. Well, your suggestions are pretty good, but Goffterdom has the last word. And he's AFK for a LONG time now. Check the date of his last post.

 

[Animalpower]

I think the terrain is not looking all realistic, but at least it resembles Europa. Neither units are realistic, example: Persia was a ancient empire which was conquered by Arabs, then by Turks and Mongols, and in the 16th century Persia was independent at the begining of Renaissance. Housecarls are Nordic units, exclusive only to Denmark, Norway and Sweden, Lithuania is Baltic and has no Viking units.

 

[SasuhKun]

I wonder if we could find someone to continue Goffterdom's project... If we could find someone to reproduct it to both wc3 and sc2, the better.

 

[DrizztDoUrden]

The idea to attach national units to capital is a bad idea I think. For example cossaks will never serve the occupiers.
I am very sad to see this project dying, Lords of Europe is one of my favorite melee WC3 maps.

 

[SasuhKun]

Right? If only we could find someone with the same love for the map, but with the knowledge and will to continue it...

 

[DrizztDoUrden]

Knolledge of what?
I am good at programming. Haven't tried terraining in fact. Shitty artist. Have average historical knolledge (In fact almost 0 knolledge of american history, but it is useless and empty, not like europe and asia).
But I am busy with my ORPG. Sorry :|

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, thanks to games, good history classes, intelligence and curiosity I could help with the historical knowledge.

By knowledge I meant everything you need to KNOW to create a map. Basically, creator's skills: terraining, coding, balancing, etc... Of which I tried to know something, but it is not my kind of thing. If there's one thing I propably won't ever be good at, is any kind of manufaturing, be it physical (meaning I have to buy everything at LARP since I cannot recreate anything good myself) or in the digital plane (map creation.)

I can give suggestions, I can point the issues, but I still cannot create the map myself.

There's also this problem: Wc3 is dying... Slowly, but still dying. After 5, 4 years playing it I could not bring myself to play it as often as I did before. The few maps that dragged me in were abandoned or are not popular enough. Lords of Europe itself, the best Naruto Arena map I've ever seen (its skills are VERY well made), and some others minor maps.

Although SC2's is shitty.

The way I see it, it is not a good time for map creation... You'll either choose degradation, or something bad. It is almost like choosing to be a human or an elf: Elfs are incredible, immortal and everything, but even their time is passing by. Humans can be easily corrupted, are easily killed, cannot live for as long as any other race, but it is their Era that's coming in the many games and books (especially J.R.R Tolkien)

Trust me when I say that USA's history still is better than mine own history. Yours at least have glory and good deeds. Mine scarcely had, everything else was the will of selfish people with power.

 

[DrizztDoUrden]

Well, comunity (not wc3 itself) is dying because of tons of newfags, who need only good grafics and play shitty games only because they "look good" :\

SCII just doesn't allow u to make your map popuplar, B.Net2 is THE SHITTIEST ONLINE GAMING SPACE EVER!!! Sorry is u don't like caps or color=red.

I am a coder in fact and I won't lead this project cuz I am PL of SoD already (though only 2 developers including me there in fact).

I also know how to balance units/items/etc. Including counting DPS with crits, evades and things like that (as I found some people can't correctly count DPS multiplier of criticals).

Well, about our history. What country are you from to be so disapointed in it? Oo
To be honest about USA I just hate democracy, cuz it is stupid. I am not a comunist if you think so, but even socialism is much better than democracy.
To be honest about Russia. Yeah, I am proud of my country, it has won many wars, palyed one of main roles in WW2, had dozerns of wars with 0 lost battles in 2 centuries (1650~-1850~), has won the only siedge in hystory when attackers (russian army commanded by Suvorov) were less in number then deffenders. And blah blah blah. So I am just a patriot.





So I can help you with it as coder and balancer.