Development—A promotion, a vacation, and a resignation

[Ash]

I already established one, and I'm pushing for moderators to not have a public rating. But, I don't know if anyone really cares that much.

 

[Septimus]

now, promote Jass as the primary languaje in the spells section, something like, "you can't have a perfect score if the spell is not in jass" or something that motivates the people like; "you'll get +10 rep if you submit one jass spell for the first time" that way more users will start to learn Jass, and then they will realize that is better to use, is easier, and more...

This is rather stupid thing to do because reputation are something that are after by some nuts at site, if they knew that a jass spells would enable them to gain free cookies. They would probably submit a GUI to JASS spells.

Even if you written a rules that clearly written "You won't get a 10 reputation if you submit GUI to JASS spells, do you honestly think they going to read it?"

They would probably don't bother with it, just submit a spells with leak, defective and etc etc in jass form in order to gain the 10 reputation. Nothing more.

But I think there's another problem, most of the moderators are pretty rude, I know, some maps really suck, but it's not fair for someone that is starting with mapping,

Hello, mind your language. The moderator and several map reviewer at here are being strict/exact/precise in their review, it is not rude or neither harsh as you think it was.

I've seen lot of potential for great map makers, but there's always the problem that someone comes and make an awful review (I meant rude), and the user lost the enthusiasm...

That's their problem. If they are able to distinguish a constructive review that point the flaw of their work, accept it and use it for their own good. Congratulation to them, if not it was their loss if they decided to give up about it.

A fine example of a user who are able to do so was Approject and death.. errr, What's his name again???

I think that in a review, there must be no suggestions at all,

That is why I against the concept of suggestion being a constructive review and calling it a rather bias decision where the user itself want the author to follow their own way.

However, majority of the staff consider a suggestion to be constructive even though I been constantly telling them about it.

 

[Ash]

Actually, Septimus, there's a fine line between being rude and aiding people through critique. It's understandable that you wouldn't know that, though.

As for the rest of the post, you just sound rather hypocritical.

 

[Azeroc]

1.) GUI is not attractive for it working like it should, but for how organized it looks at first and for how easy it is to create simple triggers.
2.) JASS does what you want it to do as well (even more efficient)

No. You cant abstract or reuse code in GUI (mainly because you cant call functions). Converting a system to GUI is pointless (because you cant really influence the order in which triggers are pasted into the war3map.j).

Maybe you're carrying around too much GUI baggage.

Says man who is psycho at GUI, this REALY bugs me, Both JASS and GUI are normal and I see a lot people with such signatures and titles "GUI SUX!!!! FUCK GUI, JASS FTW!!!", It makes me think that person is just some kind of psycho. AND Without this big GUI knowledge, I didn't get anything from JASS, more I did know about GUI, more functions and stuff from JASS was clearer to me. One thing what I think why there are these JASS psychos vs GUI is that they don't know anything from GUI. So please, don't be just like "GUI SUX!", say normal comments, if you don't like GUI just say peaceful reasons why or just "I rather prefer JASS than GUI", not "OMG GUI SUX, JASS IS OWNAGE, Yea thats right GUI newbs", thats just stupid.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Kindly calm down and say that to Vexorian's face.

And GUI really does suck, what with all the clicking and limitations. This is from someone who doesn't know JASS and really doesn't want to learn it.

 

[Deaod]

MAYBE, instead of quoting my whole post, you could quote only the parts relevant to your post. I think that would help understanding what your whole post is about.

With "GUI baggage" i was hinting at the *tiny* differences in how you have to think to produce good code. Knowing the API by heart doesnt do anything good (rects <-> regions, for one), but i guess a bit of GUI knowledge and their JASS equivalents doesnt hurt.

"GUI SUX!"

I dont remember saying something like that.

if you don't like GUI just say peaceful reasons why

Umm, i cant get any more peaceful than this.

I see a lot people with such signatures and titles "GUI SUX!!!! FUCK GUI, JASS FTW!!!", It makes me think that person is just some kind of psycho.

Diablo 3 FTW!

Well...

Without this big GUI knowledge, I didn't get anything from JASS

In the age of JNGP(TESH)/ JassCraft/... thats hardly believeable, but maybe you just didnt try.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

"GUI SUX!"

I dont remember saying something like that.

Its your user title, Deaod.

 

[Deaod]

Theres a huge difference between saying "GUI SUX!", which imo makes you sound like a moron, and saying "GUI sucks.", which is my personal opinion. And i have plenty of reasons to back my opinion up.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I think people have gone a bit too serious over this. GUI and JASS aren't exactly religions. So let me say this right now, and don't start debating it because its just true and any Wc3 mapper veteran knows:

JASS is a shitty coding language. GUI is a shitty way to use that language. GUI is an interface for JASS, it uses JASS. So yes, JASS is better than GUI. If you don't want to use JASS, fine, there's no problem with that but you're not going to be able to as much. You can still make plenty of maps with GUI (I know I do), it works alright and there is no reason you should switch to just plain using JASS unless you want to do more advanced things. But going back to what I think was the original discussion: GUI spells are rarely as good as JASS spells. That's it. JASS spells do more awesome things and generally, people who make JASS spells make good spells while GUI spells are slow, clumsy and pretty much more primitive.

... Personally I just use GUI for map triggers. I guess if I wanted to some really awesome things, I'd learn JASS, but I just don't like coding.

 

[aaron]

Spells we do not want:

• Ones that there are more efficient copies of out there. We don't want your crap.
• Ones that "re-invent the wheel". Libraries are there for a reason.
• Ones that DO NOT WORK 1.24. If spell DOES NOT WORK. We DO NOT WANT.
• GUI - DON'T BOTHER. IT SUCKS.

U MOCK GUI? wanna go buddy?

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Please stop, aaron. It doesn't help. :/

 

[maskedpoptart]

Don't get your hopes up to high though.
It's still OVER 400!

At least it's not OVER 9000!!!

Okay I don't want this post to be completely useless, so here's my opinion on GUI:
People should still be allowed to post GUI maps. The fact that a map is triggered in GUI does not make it automatically crap; some of the most popular maps on Bnet are GUI triggered.
However, there should be more regulations. Maps should not be considered for review if triggers are not leakless, MUI (or at least MPI for hero maps), etc. This will encourage map makers to use JASS, since it's easier to do those things. Moderators can use leak checking tools or something to quickly filter out the maps that break the rules.
Map moderators should be helpful to noob map makers. If they think the map is crap, they should express it politely and link to tutorials/resources that may help them improve it. I was once a GUI noob and while I never posted a map, I would not have gotten to the point I am now without people encouraging/helping me.

 

[PurplePoot]

Coding is not as big of a concern in maps as long as they function properly; however. it is in spells.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

No problem with GUI in maps, of course.

 

[maskedpoptart]

Coding is not as big of a concern in maps as long as they function properly; however. it is in spells.

I understand, but maps should be able to function properly for the full duration of time they are intended to be played. They should not slow to a halt after, say, 10 minutes of play if they are intended to be played longer than 10 minutes. As map moderators probably don't have the time to play each map completely through, they can just check for leaks. If it leaks enough, it should qualify as not "functioning properly".

 

[Squiggy]

yeah GUI sucks, but the GUI users also want to get reply on their work, if the spell section should be JASS only, it would be just fair to create a small forum for those GUI users where they can present their work
just my opinion^^

You mean to disapprove 90% of the spells?
I think that's totally wrong.. gui is not good but popular amongst new users.

 

[Septimus]

there's a fine line between being rude and aiding people through critique. It's understandable that you wouldn't know that, though.

Read my post carefully, again.

I understand, but maps should be able to function properly for the full duration of time they are intended to be played. They should not slow to a halt after, say, 10 minutes of play if they are intended to be played longer than 10 minutes. As map moderators probably don't have the time to play each map completely through, they can just check for leaks. If it leaks enough, it should qualify as not "functioning properly".

My exact sentiment, that is why I against the idea of approve map with poor scripting.

AND Without this big GUI knowledge, I didn't get anything from JASS,

Not really, you can still understand JASS without the need to learn GUI. Ask Deaod if you don't believe it.

Infact, the lesser GUI you know, it would probably be much better and easier to learn JASS. The concept of JASS scripting are far different than GUI. GUI more likely to be common sense, thus it was easier to understand.

For example,

Event - you buy apple,
Condition- 1 apple equal to 1 dollar
Action - If you purchase 3 apple then deduct 3 dollar, else do nothing.

However, most of the concept cannot be apply at JASS.

GUI are way too limited, it cannot make cinematic that as good as JASS.

 

[Ash]

And read mine 'carefully, [sic] again'. I know what you said, however I'm disagreeing. I have seen a few moderator reviews, including a fair few of yours when you were a mod, that actually weren't precise, they were just rude.

 

[Azeroc]

Yes, I know, But GUI is good for some map triggers, basic stuff... JASS is good for all this spell making and this is hilarious, JASS as Christianity and GUI as Islam , like Crusade -.-

About my thing "DIABLO 3 FTW!" At least thats what I really like, not "Omg that suck! That ftw", I don't say example "DIABLO 3 FTW! Others sucks!".

Ohh And shouldn't insults vs GUI would insult JASS too? GUI comes from JASS, GUI is only for simple easy use, with given options, blizzard could maybe put in GUI those locals example, from JASS. If Blizzard would really want, they could put EVERYTHING from JASS to GUI, though it could take LOADS of time.

Example in GUI:
Events
Map Initialization
Conditions
Actions
Set Variable = Blah blah blah

Wouldn't it be easier do very simple GUI with few clicks, than writing all that?

Example whats good in JASS:
GUI spells are possible, but in JASS you can make MUI with all that wait stuff and damage over time, while in GUI there isn't those locals what is one big part of MUI, cause if you use Globals, then whenever another unit would cast spell in same time trigger would overwrite himself.

 

[Septimus]

And read mine 'carefully, [sic] again'. I know what you said, however I'm disagreeing. I have seen a few moderator reviews, including a fair few of yours when you were a mod, that actually weren't precise, they were just rude.

Pointing the errors of the work isn't something that I consider as rude. As far as I seen, every moderator did the job correctly by pointing the flaw.

I am sure you do not want everybody to follow MH style where it was way too friendly and only point the major flaw of the work.

If the mod are way too friendly, user would not bother to adhere to the rules and strieve to improve their work. If a mod are strict at how they evaluate their work, I am sure everything would work out to be fine.

Of course, sometimes a user could mistaken a mod to be rude just because he/she was way too strict.

 

[Ash]

So, you're now saying moderators are too rude, because it makes map makers do their work better?

I'm not arguing sept, I think you've interpretative what I've said wrongly, but what I am saying is that I've seen a few reviews in which mods haven't taken the time to review something and just simply jumped on the bandwagon and insulted a map, not helped it.

 

[Deaod]

Wouldn't it be easier do very simple GUI with few clicks, than writing all that?

No. Wanna see?

GUI

Events
Map Initialization
Conditions
Actions
Set Variable = Blah blah blah

And please mention that you also need to create that variable

JASS

function InitTrig_TriggerName takes nothing returns nothing
    set udg_Variable="blah blah blah"
endfunction

Paste that into a trigger named TriggerName

vJass

library TriggerName initializer Init
    globals
        private string Variable
    endglobals

    private function Init takes nothing returns nothing
        set Variable="blah blah blah"
    endfunction

endlibrary

This can be pasted anywhere and doesnt require you to create a global over that stupid interface

 

[Linaze]

@Ash, that happens, but if you're reviewing a map that breaks 2 rules, is of an extremely poor quality and on top of that, you're in a bad mood... We're only humans, after all.

 

[Ash]

I wasn't pointing towards that, though Linaze. I'd just reject that straight away with a review of 'LOL', as I have done once -- and only once, at that. But that map was just a peon, more or less, so you know.

 

[EHH]

Oh please, GUI existed because Blizzard knew not much would be in the map making scene if you had to make a map out of words that gives no straight explanation to their functions.

Besides, JASS won't be anything when SC2 comes out.

 

[Linaze]

Isn't it better that you GUI-people learn Jass as a preparation for Jass' counterpart in SC2?

 

[Deolrin]

Linaze, Blizzard stated that the SC2 coding language will be completely different than JASS or GUI, they call it "Galaxy" and it will be kinda like C/C+/C++.

 

[EHH]

Isn't it better that you GUI-people learn Jass as a preparation for Jass' counterpart in SC2?

So we'll learn something we won't use?

GALAXY is different, and we could be learning C instead if we really wanted to prepare for SC2's GALAXY.

Some will fail... What about those? This is why Blizzard made GUI.

Edit:

Didn't see your post, debode.

 

[Michael Peppers]

Practically speaking, JASS is quite similar to C too...

(Also if its syntax is more similar to Delphi/Turing language)

 

[Linaze]

Practically speaking, basically all programming languages resemble each other, to be honest. Once you've mastered one, mastering another will be much easier.

 

[Septimus]

So, you're now saying moderators are too rude, because it makes map makers do their work better?

I'm not arguing sept, I think you've interpretative what I've said wrongly, but what I am saying is that I've seen a few reviews in which mods haven't taken the time to review something and just simply jumped on the bandwagon and insulted a map, not helped it.

You get it wrong, I mean the review should be accurate while at the same time look passive. Doesn't been too friendly or neither too strict.

Something are not necessary to be review if it failed to adhere to the submission rules, we can make it quick, simple and efficient while at the same time being precise such as this example below.

This resources does not contain valid author name and description, it even written at foreign language and was poorly done. The tooltips does not contain any detail, the hotkey isn't working, and inefficient scripting with memory leak.

Please read, understand, respect and adhere to the submission rules as you have agree to do so.

Besides, JASS won't be anything when SC2 comes out.

Nonsense, warcraft have their own community, so does the starcraft. Just because sc2 exist, it doesn't mean wc3 would be isolated.

 

[Kwah]

No, it means that no-one will mod it anymore.

 

[Linaze]

No, it means neither. It means that a large part of the Warcraft community will move on to Starcraft 2.

 

[Kwah]

U MOCK GUI?

Yes.

It's innefficient, more work than Jass, and no modularity whatsoever.

 

[Squiggy]

gui sucks

 

[bounty hunter2]

The thread is a bit TL;DR, however thanks to everyone wishing me nice holidays

And @Ash: When I approve a map then I have to put up the rating, so you can't really do much about the hiding the rating thing.

Good luck Linaze!

 

[Ash]

You could get ralle to hide it, bounty.

Also, I don't even feel like replying, sept. I don't think you're seeing what I'm saying, and I've got a business pitch to prepare for tomorrow and deliver at 9AM.

Fuck.

 

[PurplePoot]

I understand, but maps should be able to function properly for the full duration of time they are intended to be played. They should not slow to a halt after, say, 10 minutes of play if they are intended to be played longer than 10 minutes. As map moderators probably don't have the time to play each map completely through, they can just check for leaks. If it leaks enough, it should qualify as not "functioning properly".

They should not slow to a halt after two hours even if they are only intended to be played for 10 minutes. Game-breaking leaks are considered game-breaking bugs and therefore unacceptable.

Event - you buy apple,
Condition- 1 apple equal to 1 dollar
Action - If you purchase 3 apple then deduct 3 dollar, else do nothing.

However, most of the concept cannot be apply at JASS.

Trust me—while that may seem obvious to you, many people find even scripts that basic to be incredibly complicated, let alone "fancy stuff" like variables.

Ohh And shouldn't insults vs GUI would insult JASS too? GUI comes from JASS, GUI is only for simple easy use, with given options, blizzard could maybe put in GUI those locals example, from JASS. If Blizzard would really want, they could put EVERYTHING from JASS to GUI, though it could take LOADS of time.

You clearly have no idea what the disadvantages of GUI in code terms are...

Wouldn't it be easier do very simple GUI with few clicks, than writing all that?

People underestimate typing speed.

Practically speaking, basically all programming languages resemble each other, to be honest. Once you've mastered one, mastering another will be much easier.

Not true at all. Learn C, then move to Java, and finally move to Scheme (not necessarily in that order). They're more different than you think.

--

I'm getting very close to purging this thread.

 

[Kwah]

Not true at all. Learn C, then move to Java, and finally move to Scheme (not necessarily in that order). They're more different than you think.

Don't listen to Poot! Python ftw.

 

[PurplePoot]

I'm referring to differences; as Python is a hybrid of those three paradigms, it wouldn't show the transition as clearly.

 

[Kwah]

I'm reffering to Python being better than those 3.

 

[Linaze]

My point was that to some extent, most, if not all programming languages do resemble each other, with different syntax's and purposes though, of course.

 

[PurplePoot]

My point was that to some extent, most, if not all programming languages do resemble each other, with different syntax's and purposes though, of course.

Those languages vary in much more than syntax; in fact, Java's syntax is based off C's (well, C++'s, but same deal).

 

[Vulcano]

Practically speaking, basically all programming languages resemble each other, to be honest. Once you've mastered one, mastering another will be much easier.

idd, i already did some programming on a calculator , and then learning java at university was very easy, never did C, C++, C# before btw.

And what about .NET program language?

 

[M4stah]

I truly understand how JASS is more efficient and has more options than GUI, but it has a big downside. Its a progamming language.
Blizzard SHOULD have made GUI faster and cleaner, but they would kill mapmaking by forcing everyone to learn JASS, which is kinda useless when you quit WC3 modding.
World Editor is very simple to use and makes it attractive to make maps yourself.
Many people(including me) will find it too hard to learn a code language just for modding a game.

 

[Cr34p]

ok first of all it's not a programming language but a scripting one.
And it's never useless to learn such things, because with this you learn many usefull logical things. Also it's helpfull for some people to understand other scripting/programming languages

 

[PurplePoot]

You have to learn GUI to use it properly. You can "use" it before, but you inevitably just blow everything up.

 

[PurplePoot]

Another promotion--ap0calypse is now a map moderator. Also, Eccho might be staying after all.

 

[HFR]

Good luck ap0calypse!

 

[maskedpoptart]

Yay! Way to go ap0calypse. You just might end the Pending Maps apocalypse.