Defining and Placement of Melee Maps with Meagre Changes

[twojstaryjakcie]

Yes, that's kind of an issue with the implementation of the change, but I'm afraid that making retroactive changes to map tags would require a tremendous amount of work. I suppose some kind of public announcement
could be made that, apart from stating what a Tweaked Melee is, would encourage people to update the tags of their maps which met Melee standards before (but not quite anymore).

It's probably the only thing one can do, since it's virtually impossible to find all the maps which should be changed from Melee to Tweaked. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that the change shouldn't be implemented. Take Magic: The Gathering new rule implementations (kind of a specific example, I know, but I think it works well here), for example: For years, spells in MTG that dealt damage could target creatures and players, since these two targets were the only ones that could be affected by the damage dealt. However, at a certain point in time Planeswalker cards were added and they were also affected by damage. Therefore, creators of MTG decided to update the rules with a statement that any spell that deals damage to a player could also deal damage to a planeswalker. This way, people would recognize how to deal with Planeswalkers without the need of having every single card reprinted.

Same goes for the maps in Hive - after learning about what Tweaked is, users will be able to distinguish between Melee and Tweaked Melee. The tag change for older maps isn't necessary, though the tags in the maps to come will be a useful piece of information, which, in fact, is the whole point of creating a Tweaked map type - giving users more information on whether the map they're looking at is what they're after.

 

[deepstrasz]

This will not solve the competitive vs non-competitive issue at all

I understand but competitiveness will remain as until now under normal melee. There are numerous fun and well made melee maps which are not designed for ladder and some of them are in Substandard for this reason, which is wrong. However, I've stated why we shouldn't mix real altered melee with little changes of melee and why melee should not have anything else than mere aesthetics changes as an exception.

One question though - would the implementation of the tweaked melee category have an impact on older maps?

In the sense that said authors have the option to call for remoderation, yes.

I'm afraid that making retroactive changes to map tags would require a tremendous amount of work.

After rereviewing, if the authors ask for it, they can update their description and add the tag themselves. Ah... you nailed it yourself.

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EDIT:
I really vouch for this new tag unless BlizzEnt accepts such mere edited maps in ladder play.

 

[deepstrasz]

Guys? Map section's cluttering. Luck is that until now there aren't too many maps of this type pending but I don't want that to happen.

 

[The Panda]

We need to come to a conclusion soon we open these threads but nothing comes out of it, there multiple other threads similar to this that solves no problems at all.. and @deepstrasz and if you need help let me know im willing to help.

 

[Lordlycan]

tweaked or rebalanced melee (it doesn't have to be better balanced but changed) the poll seems to favor one outcome considerably over the others. Not sure if hive can support a likerd scale type of poll in the future that way you can always make a conclusive end result. Since it's more or less a leaning towards this type of answer more than others but hardly ever unanimous.

 

[Daffa]

Any final decision on this? It's hard that some of the map Pending needs to be substandard despite it being potential for Tweaked Melee.

 

[Rui]

The solutions presented are a bit unsatisfying to say the least. Map upload shows only types' titles, and people will unlikely distinguish between “Altered Melee” and “Tweaked Melee”.


Reformulating my previous suggestion (optimally, these would all appear under current Melee, so users know they're related):

• (Pure) Melee: Users cannot classify their map as melee. The Hive's submission system does this automatically, if it detects the map obeys Blizzard's / World Editor's criterion. Map moderators may manually classify maps as Pure Melee.
  
  
• More Races Melee: Adds one or more races.
  
  
• Overhauled Techtree Melee: Completely different techtrees from the 4 vanilla races.
  
  
• Quest-completion Melee: Is a melee or slightly altered melee map with special objectives.
  
  
• Tweaked Melee: Melee with only slight alterations in either gameplay or techtrees. Meant for maps unfitting for anything else. This classification should be mutually exclusive with Overhauled Techtrees and More Races Melee. Even if occasionally it's hard to choose between one of the two. (Would there be any immediate cases?)

I know this may seem like a lot. But, if we can create categories, then let's make use of them. If it helps users, why be conservative? It's more transparent to everyone, and, as such, ought to take load off of map moderators.

 

[KILLCIDE]

Re-opened by request.

 

[deepstrasz]

@mafe since we have no resolution, I think your idea will stay: basically, tweaked melee=melee+altered melee tags.

 

[Rui]

Well, it's no longer my business, so decide as you will.

My dream altered melee map database though would be searchable by labels/tags such as:
✔Keeps the 4 classic races
✔Adds extra races
✔Victory by completing special objectives
✔Minor/meagre techtree changes

Melee and complete overhaul would be a separate categories.

 

[Daffa]

Consider it a temporary fix. Tweaked Melee hopefully be a thing when XF2 comes, though now I read Rui's suggestion, I'll take a note about the option as well.