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Covid-19 vaccination

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Dr Super Good

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You draw the line when the person intentionally spreads the disease. That's what you do with murderers that don't get life detention and get reintegrated in society.
And what about people who unintentionally spread diseases that end up killing people? Such as due to ignorance or a lack of caring. If a person accidently kills someone such as due to a road traffic accident or due to food poisoning from unsafe food preparation they are usually tried for manslaughter by society. Why should such logic not be applied to diseases?
 

deepstrasz

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And what about people who unintentionally spread diseases that end up killing people? Such as due to ignorance or a lack of caring. If a person accidently kills someone such as due to a road traffic accident or due to food poisoning from unsafe food preparation they are usually tried for manslaughter by society. Why should such logic not be applied to diseases?
If it can be proven that a certain person has been careless that the result of that caused someone to die, then, a similar law could take effect. But it will be hard to get the proper evidence in most cases for such a law to work well.
 
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Wow, I never realized I could be a murderer simply by standing in the same room as someone else and breathing. I wonder how many people I have accidentally killed this way...
 
As someone who is vaccinated all to heck and back, I forgot this thread existed. I think I was here on Hive and posted on this thread several months ago. Recently, based on the data saying it was probably OK or whatever, I started living like there was no pandemic. I guess even if I got the COVID, I would probably be immune. It feels pretty weird just walking around, living my life, walking past people and seeing they have mask and I don't. Didn't the government say it doesn't matter anymore?

And what about people who unintentionally spread diseases that end up killing people? Such as due to ignorance or a lack of caring. If a person accidently kills someone such as due to a road traffic accident or due to food poisoning from unsafe food preparation they are usually tried for manslaughter by society. Why should such logic not be applied to diseases?

This is a fascinating question to me. If I got in a car today and drove it into another human being, we hold me directly responsible. But today I was maskless in WalMart and I walked past people. If in fact I am an asymptomatic carrier (which is quite possible since I'm super vaccinated) and so some antivax, anti-mask people got COVID from me at that WalMart, would you really put me on trial and take away my life for this? When in the car running someone over, there is a case to be made that I knew that would happen. I impelled the car to motion into that other person knowing that would happen, even if it was on accident.

But I am so immune to COVID with my vaccine that I will not ever know if I had the COVID, so the only way to follow your new law that no one should risk disease for other humans would be for me to never leave a sealed area. Maybe you are not logically wrong, but wouldn't the consequence of enacting the kind of system you're describing be horrible? Then I could never leave my sealed room so that I was never at risk of impacting the lives of others.

Conversely, if your logic is sound an no human should be allowed to accidentally cause death to another based on circumstances that they do not understand, then could we put Blizzard Entertainment on trial for indirectly killing hundreds and thousands of people who got infected with suicidal thoughts by playing too many Warcraft PC products only to have Warcraft Rumble Mobile get published while their PC products rotted in the dust with no support, making them feel like they were also dust to rot and making them suicidal?

I am not able to totally convince myself that your logic is flawed, but I think a corollary of that logic would be that a company like Blizzard should not be allowed to make us all feel bad by not supporting Reforged. Because obviously if I go outside maskless and dance around and cough on people, if they were all like me and all vaccinated all to heck with many shots, they would all be fine. Likewise if we were all rich like Bob Kotick, we wouldn't care about video games so no matter what we would be fine.
But, so by accommodating the risk that I might kill them as an asymptomatic carrier, I would have to accommodate their differences from me and their unique ways of being. In that same logic, maybe if I only want to play the Warcraft III for PC and Bob Kotick is not accommodating my particular style that leads me to my death by getting really emotionally down from the lack of Warcraft III support, then that means Bob Kotick is actually guilty of manslaughter of the suicidal Warcraft III players in that case, isn't he? Because suddenly everyone would be responsible not to do things that have even the slightest chance of causing death to some other human because of that other human's circumstances and choices. And there probably are people who would become suicidal and die unless their video games were actually good.

Edit: I mean, have you talked to Warcraft III world editor players? Have you ever met a Warcraft III world editor mapper/player that was not having suicidal thoughts? I think almost every one that I talked to for more than 60 minutes on Discord eventually admitted at some point to having suicidal thoughts. I think it goes with the genre and with the experience.
 
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Dr Super Good

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Didn't the government say it doesn't matter anymore?
Most governments have said it is up to user choice if they want to wear masks or not. Most also still recommend people wear masks, just they are not forcing or legally requiring that people do so anymore.

But I am so immune to COVID with my vaccine that I will not ever know if I had the COVID
Immunity does not last long with COVID. Hence why so many booster shots have already been given. If you are young it is unlikely to do much to you anyway, but it still poses a serious risk for older people or people with underlying health conditions. A lot of people still die from COVID every day.
Conversely, if your logic is sound an no human should be allowed to accidentally cause death to another based on circumstances that they do not understand, then could we put Blizzard Entertainment on trial for indirectly killing hundreds and thousands of people who got infected with suicidal thoughts by playing too many Warcraft PC products only to have Warcraft Rumble Mobile get published while their PC products rotted in the dust with no support, making them feel like they were also dust to rot and making them suicidal?
I know of the case of suicide by World of Warcraft or Diablo II, but never heard of anyone committing suicide due to the state of Warcraft III Reforged. Any link to where this was reported?

The game industry as a whole was found responsible for the poor mental health of some people, and has resulted in regulation changes in some countries. For example in China children have strict limits on the number of hours they can play games every week.

As for the actual argument. It was more a thought question to encourage people to think of how their actions might affect others. I still recommend people wear masks and get COVID vaccines they are offered until the actual infection rate drops as not only does this help protect them, but also helps protect those around them.
 
never heard of anyone committing suicide due to the state of Warcraft III Reforged. Any link to where this was reported?
I guess I was reporting my personal anecdote. I'm not aware of anyone who truly died, but is there anyone who is really excited for War3 and shakes it all off these days? Now that you ask, I wonder if we could poll people on this site somehow about how they feel? Like when streamers do a strawpoll or whatever. But people might not want to be honest, so I'm sure the data might be subject to interpretation.

Edit: What is your personal anecdote? You play Warcraft III with people who are uplifted and excited for each day?
Maybe we should be friends....
 
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Dr Super Good

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Update: I have my Pfizer 1st dose yesterday and damn...... my arm is still on irritation. No more Coffee, Chocolate, Coke and other drinks for me for 1 week.
The vaccine I had lasted about 3 days before it was not really noticeable. First day arm strength started reducing. Second day it was at its lowest (felt really weak). Third day started to return back to normal. Then after it was as if it never happened.

After having 3 inoculations I found the second one the worst. First had delayed response (first day was like it never happened, second day it really hurt) with some bruising occurring towards the end of the second day. Second response was within a few hours but bruising occurred fast and less visible. Third did not really have a strong response other than some minor weakness but this "booster" was a different type from the first and second vaccination. No lasting impact on the strength of the arm, after a few days it was as if it never happened for all 3 vaccinations.
 
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Been a while. Never had quite the time to answer. Also, some new things have come up. So, here be my answer!

Should it be a choice though? The issue is that by not getting vaccinated the people are not just putting themselves at risk, which is their right,
Correct.
but also others,
Really? How? If those other people get vaccinated, do they have something to fear? If those people already got through with the disease, do they have something to fear? And if they aren't vaccinated and haven't gotten the immunity naturally, they accept the "risk".

Besides, the sources below call into question the safety and protection these vaccines really offer.
  • Because a person was not vaccinated they remained transmissible for 1 day longer when they caught Covid. During that additional day they spread it to 2 additional people, one of which was also not vaccinated and dies from it.
One whole day? Oh no! Also, look into this:
Hmmm...

  • Because a person was not vaccinated they became seriously ill from Covid and required hospitalisation.
Please stop with this argument. A tiny percentage of people get hospitalized, whether they are vaccinated, or not. I was diagnosed with it, many of my friends and family were as well. None of them were hospitalized. Most severe case was running a mild fever for a couple of days. Typical cold.
  • Because a person was not vaccinated their immune system did not respond quickly or strong enough to a Covid infection. This allowed the Covid strain inside them to mutate/evolve to become more deadly, virulent and less affected by the current vaccinations.

Vaccinated, or not vaccinated, everyone can carry the disease and let it mutate. (Sources below show, that natural immunity is also stronger or equal)
  • Flu mutates frequently. We've lived with it for at least a century by now. So what?
  • There already were mutations of COVID (omicron) and they were milder than the initial strain.
  • Natural human immunity is as, or more, powerful than vaccines:


Moreover, the source below suggests, that vaccine-given immunity also lasts a shorter amount of time than natural immunity (Higher risk of reinfection after a time). And the more doses a person received, the faster the immunity wanes.

Interesting... This implies, that your natural immunity is compromised after vaccines. Interesting, indeed. And then, look at this:
Miocarditis risk supposedly lower overall, but higher in young men after vaccine doses... Hmm

All of this proves, that any sort of force or coercion to get vaccines is not only unreasonable, but potentially criminal. As is any fear-mongering propaganda, that pushed people to accept vaccines, that are potentially more dangerous than the disease itself.
 
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Dr Super Good

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One whole day? Oh no! Also, look into this:
COVID is not the Flu. Where as antibodies for that might be produced for over 90 years your body struggles to keep making antibodies to combat COVID after just 1 year.

Now sure in thousands of years with natural evolution you will eventually find people retain such antibodies longer. But that is not something any of us will experience.
Please stop with this argument. A tiny percentage of people get hospitalized, whether they are vaccinated, or not. I was diagnosed with it, many of my friends and family were as well. None of them were hospitalized. Most severe case was running a mild fever for a couple of days. Typical cold.
A lot of people have died or suffered long term complications from it, you were just lucky.

If it affects you badly, you require hospitalisation. If you do not get the treatment at this stage you will die. This was seen in India where they let it run rampant, the hospitals were overloaded and people were fighting over oxygen cylinders to try and keep their loved ones alive.
Flu mutates frequently. We've lived with it for at least a century by now. So what?
Flu is not COVID. COVID is something entirely new that has only recently started affecting humans at a large scale. It did not exist in any significant way inside the human population 100s of years ago.
There already were mutations of COVID (omicron) and they were milder than the initial strain.
Which again is due to people failing to follow recommended procedures such as wearing masks and getting vaccinated. If they had, most of the lockdown would never have happened as COVID would have died out.

Of course trying to get the entirety of the world to understand this had to happen was impossible. People are seemingly too stupid...
Natural human immunity is as, or more, powerful than vaccines:
If it works, yes. Too bad it does not work very well against COVID because it is not a regular flu. If your immune system did work well against COVID then COVID would not be an issue as it would have been a mild flu and if a vaccination was required a single dose would have given you near immunity for decades.

The whole problem with COVID is that the human immune system is not very efficient at combating it.

The article you linked is flawed in that in order to get "natural" immunity you need to have caught, and survived COVID. The entire point of the vaccines is to reduce the risk of hospitalisation and death for people who have not yet caught COVID. By having the vaccines they are much more likely to do well after their first infection than relying on no immunity at all to help them through. Only after the first infection can the body develop "natural immunity" and the article becomes relevant.

Natural immunity only lasts a few years at best.
Moreover, the source below suggests, that vaccine-given immunity also lasts a shorter amount of time than natural immunity (Higher risk of reinfection after a time). And the more doses a person received, the faster the immunity wanes.
Again in order for a person to get natural immunity they need to have survived COVID to begin with. Surviving it after recently having a vaccine is better than without any vaccine and just relying on the roll of the dice that your immune system combat it effectively enough to not get too sick.

Interesting... This implies, that your natural immunity is compromised after vaccines.
That is not what the authors of the article said...
This finding should be interpreted with caution because of limitations of our study, which include the inability to adjust for the complex relationships among prior infection, vaccine eligibility, and underlying conditions. Importantly, by December 1, 2021, all persons aged 12 years and older were eligible for 2 or more vaccine doses free of charge, and 71.1% of the Icelandic population had been vaccinated,5 compared with only 25.5% of our cohort of previously infected persons.
Sure within their data they noticed such statistical evidence, but not only was it small (small can be within margin of error) but they then admit the data set was flawed.
Miocarditis risk supposedly lower overall, but higher in young men after vaccine doses... Hmm
Again not really what the article says...
Overall, the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination and remains modest after sequential doses including a booster dose of BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. However, the risk of myocarditis after vaccination is higher in younger men, particularly after a second dose of the mRNA-1273 vaccine.
In other words Pfizer vaccine largely reduces the chance of myocarditis compared with naturally getting COVID-19. However Moderna vaccine could give more males below the age of 40 myocarditis than COVID-19 does after their second does. Given that this paints one company as better than another I would not be surprised if there was underlying financial motivation...

In any case the statistics are quite limited and likely flawed similar to the other article, except the authors have not admitted it. Some papers say the risk shift for COVID starts at early as 25 and not 40.

As for the scope it is referring to an event that occurs in 0.007% of the population, of which 79% of those cases were directly linked to COVID-19. It is also possible that of those 21% there were also COVID-19 factors that were not detected or recorded.
that are potentially more dangerous the than the disease itself.
Statistics say otherwise... Especially in people over the age of 25.
 
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I see this thread is still active! Good. I guess I can just give a little personal update on things here. To date, I've had Moderna's primary shot, plus two boosters. I still wear two masks, and occasionally a splash guard in public at all times. This whole incident has also helped teach me the value of nose-breathing, i.e. focusing on inflating your stomach (your diaphragm) and not your chest first, like is usually the habit of people sitting at a desk. Nose-breathing also helps reduce the amount of pathogens you take in in general, thanks to how your nostrils are structured with all the hairs to block them.

Not once have I had Covid. At least, not that I know of. But since my breast-cancer-survivor mother I regularly help out in person hasn't got it either, and she has next to no immune system thanks to the chemotherapy she takes, I take it as a good sign that my precautions are working. So, I'm gonna keep doing them. Thank God for science, doctors, and vaccines!
 
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COVID is not the Flu. Where as antibodies for that might be produced for over 90 years your body struggles to keep making antibodies to combat COVID after just 1 year.
And how do you know, that COVID is any different in this matter? Proof, that it is not just your personal opinion?
A lot of people have died or suffered long term complications from it, you were just lucky.
Absolute majority of people in the world are "lucky", in that case.

Most people get through with mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. So, again, stop using the nonsensical argument about hospitalizations...

Flu is not COVID. COVID is something entirely new that has only recently started affecting humans at a large scale. It did not exist in any significant way inside the human population 100s of years ago.
No, COVID is not entirely new. Corona viruses are a family of viruses, that we've been dealing with for a long time. Common cold and bronchitis are both caused by CORONA viruses. COVID is just a new strain, hence Novel. The symptoms between COVID and flu are also so similar, that even doctors have trouble identifying them:

Which again is due to people failing to follow recommended procedures such as wearing masks and getting vaccinated. If they had, most of the lockdown would never have happened as COVID would have died out.
No, it wouldn't. The only way for the disease to "die out" - become not much of a threat, like flu, is for most of the public to gain immunity. The most effective method for that is to get through with the disease. Just as the sources I've linked before suggest.

If it works,
Of course, it works. That's the point of natural immunity. It only doesn't work in immuno-deficient people.

Natural immunity only lasts a few years at best.
You don't know that. And the sources I provided suggest, that natural immunity lasts longer and is stronger, anyways.

That is not what the authors of the article said...
Which is why I said, that it implies it. As the sources suggest, natural immunity is stronger and lasts longer than vaccine immunity. However, if the immunity life-span shortens still with each vaccine, that would imply, that the vaccine also compromises your natural immunity, rather than adding on to it.

Sure within their data they noticed such statistical evidence, but not only was it small (small can be within margin of error) but they then admit the data set was flawed.
Even if we consider it a margin of error, then the probability of reinfection is equal between those, who get all the boosters and those, who developed immunity naturally. Given time, that is. Which, again, calls into question the necessity to vaccinate.

Again not really what the article says...
It is literally what it says in the conclusion:
However, the risk of myocarditis after vaccination is higher in younger men, particularly after a second dose of the mRNA-1273 vaccine.
You just highlighted the part, that benefits your argument :)

Statistics say otherwise... Especially in people over the age of 25.
They do?
 

Dr Super Good

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And how do you know, that COVID is any different in this matter? Proof, that it is not just your personal opinion?

As shown in the paper. Normal coronaviruses that are not the new strains that caused COVID-19 cause the human body to produce antibodies for ~12 months. Other related coronaviruses have antibodies present for ~2 years but after 1 year levels are greatly reduced.
Most people get through with mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. So, again, stop using the nonsensical argument about hospitalizations...
Again within that paper the official death toll at the time it was written was 1.8 million. The current official death toll for the world according to Our World in Data is 6,502,955 people.

However the WHO is less optimistic about the deaths.
Either for political reasons or dysfunctionality a lot of governments under reported or did not even record COVID related deaths. As such their estimations of the deaths up to the end of 2021 is at 15 million.

The WHO estimates ~4 million of those were from India during the massive healthcare collapse due to COVID-19 overwhelming the hospitals. This situation was fortunately avoided in most of the western world otherwise that could have easily been another 5 to 10 million dead people.

And of course people are still dying of COVID. The true scale of death might never be known.
No, COVID is not entirely new. Corona viruses are a family of viruses, that we've been dealing with for a long time. Common cold and bronchitis are both caused by CORONA viruses. COVID is just a new strain, hence Novel. The symptoms between COVID and flu are also so similar, that even doctors have trouble identifying them:
We were dealing with other coronaviruses. Not this specific one that only recently jumped from animals to humans. Sure some people in remote villages may have been exposed to it for a long time but the general human population has not been. This is likely one of the reasons it is significantly more deadly than normal flus.
No, it wouldn't. The only way for the disease to "die out" - become not much of a threat, like flu, is for most of the public to gain immunity. The most effective method for that is to get through with the disease. Just as the sources I've linked before suggest.
Yes in a world full of people who do not listen that is the case. However if people listened it would have died out because all spread would have stopped and eventually those who had it would stop being infectious. The coronavirus involved is not particularly durable even, it is destroyed naturally fairly quickly so is entirely dependent on rapid transmission.

Diseases have been wiped out in the past. Smallpox is an example.
You don't know that. And the sources I provided suggest, that natural immunity lasts longer and is stronger, anyways.
And the source I provided suggest it does not, especially for coronaviruses in general.
Which is why I said, that it implies it. As the sources suggest, natural immunity is stronger and lasts longer than vaccine immunity. However, if the immunity life-span shortens still with each vaccine, that would imply, that the vaccine also compromises your natural immunity, rather than adding on to it.
This is called "jumping to conclusions". Without scientific method it is purely speculation and a theory.
Even if we consider it a margin of error, then the probability of reinfection is equal between those, who get all the boosters and those, who developed immunity naturally. Given time, that is. Which, again, calls into question the necessity to vaccinate.
The issue is that some of their sample was dealing with less than 100 people. 1 additional person is a huge percentage change when dealing with so few people. It is hard to have any sort of reliable statistics with such small outcomes, especially when an experiment is by nature not repeatable.

As such all these papers serve is as observations for potential other research and experimentation. Such research might take many decades before actual proof for the statistics is produced.
You just highlighted the part, that benefits your argument :)
Because it has to be taken as a whole, not just only the parts that sound good to you.

The percentage being discussed is 0.00147% of people and again just because it happens without a COVID-19 infection being registered does not mean that COVID-19 was not involved. You cannot just assume that COVID-19 was not involved because it was not detected, especially given that the people had antibodies to fight it so might have destroyed the infection before it reached a reliably detectable threshold.
Yes I recall it being linked earlier in this very thread.
 
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The WHO estimates ~4 million of those were from India during the massive healthcare collapse due to COVID-19 overwhelming the hospitals. This situation was fortunately avoided in most of the western world otherwise that could have easily been another 5 to 10 million dead people.
@Dr Super Good I was thinking it was going to happen in US for a bit there, it did happen in a few areas which resulted in some sad things like other people dying of completely preventable causes (think appendicitis) but was mostly not an issue. If it was though, how would you have felt about triaging care away from people who could have but didn't get vaccinated?
 
@Dr Super Good I was thinking it was going to happen in US for a bit there, it did happen in a few areas which resulted in some sad things like other people dying of completely preventable causes (think appendicitis) but was mostly not an issue. If it was though, how would you have felt about triaging care away from people who could have but didn't get vaccinated?
That's not how triage works. You don't spitefully deny treatment during triage. If it actually had a bearing on whether or not they would survive, it would be applicable to a triage scenario.
 

Dr Super Good

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That's not how triage works. You don't spitefully deny treatment during triage. If it actually had a bearing on whether or not they would survive, it would be applicable to a triage scenario.
The issue with triage is that it means that care is being withheld to some people because of a lack of resources. Some Covid patients enter with critical priority because they need oxygen and can further deteriorate to needing assisted ventilation (unable to breath on their own). Without assistance they will die, making them high priority. However, this means that people who might still die in the future without attention have to be left waiting because these other people are more critical and occupying resources. And then with enough such people showing up you can get the situation that a person with Covid who needs oxygen cannot get any due to there being no available oxygen cylinders or who needs assisted ventilation being unable to get any because all ventilators are occupied. This is what happened in India and why the W.H.O. estimates that at least 5 million people died due to covid there. This is why the lockdowns were used in the west as it helped avoid these situations by slowing the spread, and was very effective at doing it.

Even to this day people are dying in UK hospitals because of the effects of Covid. This ranges from cancer treatments being delayed too long that now they are inoperable (due to triage at the time showing their cancer as a non-critical issue so delaying them) all the way to people not bothering to go to hospital because they get stuck in 48 hour queues waiting to be unloaded from ambulances to even people in ambulances dying in them because they cannot be unloaded. And this was the good outcome being caused due to all the delayed procedures the hospitals are having to catch up on. If it was left to run uncontrolled without any lockdowns there could easily have been over 2 million casualties in the UK, especially since a large amount of the population fall into the higher risk categories for needing major treatment with Covid.
 
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