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A gloomy day #brexit

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pharaoh_, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. oger-lord

    oger-lord

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    Some older data from Wikipedia:
    • German citizens of immigrant background: 12.3%
    • Foreign nationals: 7.7%
    And the important point is that in the older generations are German, but when you look at the children:
    In 2008, 30% of German children had at least one parent born abroad.​
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#Migrant_background_and_foreign_nationality
    • Last year 500 thousand refugees were let in
    The real number for 2015 is 1.1 million
    http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...Fluechtlinge-kamen-2015-nach-Deutschland.html
    • Since the average German has a family size of just ~2.0
    German women get on average 1.47 children (and this number already includes the foreigners with a higher birth rate)
    http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...eit-hinter-der-erfreulichen-Geburtenrate.html
    I think every other nation of the world has a higher birthrate, even Japan.

    About criminality: The police has the order that they should hide criminal cases of asylum seekers (to prevent racism) and they are not allowed to make statistics or they are manipluated.
    This is the reason why it took serveral days after silvester cologne sexual assaults that it became public.
    Some people collected articles of local newspapers to make the criminality that happend this year visible (different icons for sexual assault, robbery, attacks on children, murder):
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1_rNT3k2ZXB-f9z-2nSFMIBQKXCs
     
  2. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    This is not a proof. If you examine this page, you will notice it has basicly the same information value as Buzzfeed.

    If we take the referendum as an example, then mostly old people. The majority of young people voted pro-EU.
    Unfortunately, the way demographics change, old people get more and more power over the youth.

    Nobody is talking about mass immigration. Immigration != sheltering refugees. Immigration into the EU is not easy, contrary to popular belief.

    Besides: the UK was never even part of the Shengen treaty, which means they never had to take in refugees in the first place. So why exactly are refugees even a thing in this debate?


    Why is that doubtful? It's a law which can be enforced. And contrary to popular belief, most asylum seekers actually want to go back to their home country after the war.

    Extraprolating from the refugee numbers in one year to 20 years? That's fine, if we assume that Syria actually has a population that can support it. It doesn't. Even if ALL refugees in the world come to europe, that would mean that the number of muslims in europe rise by only 1% (from 4% to 5%).

    Uhh, the telegraph. Wel that's obviously non-biased research then.

    Uuuuh, articles backed up by the extreme-right AFD party. Well that surely can not be hyperbole.

    The cologne incident was an exception, caused mostly by the budget cuts on the local police.

    I always have to laugh when someone brings up rape as the typical crime to represent social decay.

    Take a look at this and laugh about how ridicolously rare "rape by strangers" is in comparison to rape by friends and family.
    [​IMG]

    Yes, rape exists. Nobody denies that, but you are literally 95% more likely to be raped by someone you know than by a migrant.

    The whole "rape culture" thing is a huge hyperbole by femracists.

    I have many friends who work at the police and can say for sure that this is bullshit. Nobody is trying to cover up anything. The reason why the cologne police was reluctant to reveal the nationality of the perpetrators was not because they wanted to cover it up, but because the police is forced by law to investigate cases thoroughly before jumping to conclusions. Like, literally, newspapers demanded to know the origin of the perpetrators one day after the incident. At that time, they didn't even had the time to properly question the victims to get the bigger picture.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  3. oger-lord

    oger-lord

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    Maybe it was caused by the behaviour of our assylum seekers.
    By the way we know such incidents from the arabian world:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_sexual_assault_in_Egypt
    According to a 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, 83 per cent of Egyptian women said they had experienced sexual harassment, as did 98 percent of women from overseas while in Egypt.​

    Well, other policeman say different stuff (Manipluation of statistics, not naming the origin of suspects):
    http://www.welt.de/regionales/duess...olizei-Statistik-Verbrechen-verheimlicht.html
    https://www.derwesten.de/staedte/na...kunft-von-taetern-verschweigt-id11454447.html
    https://www.derwesten.de/staedte/bo...kriminalitaet-sind-gefaelscht-id11405034.html
    http://www.otz.de/web/zgt/politik/d...urde-im-Stadtwald-von-Gera-vergewa-1716780767
     
  4. Eagle XI

    Eagle XI

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    Ah' cmon, even an 5-yo child can tell you that this would not surely ever happen before year 3000 something.
     
  5. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    ... or not until they acknowledge cyprus.
     
  6. chobibo

    chobibo

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    So the UK left EU because of immigration-induced rape/crimes?
     
  7. The_Silent

    The_Silent

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    That is one of the reasons people voted "leave", not the only one.
     
  8. Pharaoh_

    Pharaoh_

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  9. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    The worst part about all this?
    The UK was never even part of the Shengen Agreement, which means they were never forced by the EU to take in refugees in the first place.

    So all this xenophobic propaganda was nothing but a tool to convince the uneducated people to vote for leave.
     
  10. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    They do not need to join the EU for their people to travel freely. Due to the deal the EU cut with them they can do that in just a few years from now. Not the same as joining the EU I admit, but still opens up Europe to millions of migrants.

    Not really, although in some cities it is bad due to ghetto cultures. It was a combination of many things.

    However about 20% of the votes were from idiots who had no idea what they were voting for. Like wise one can guess about 20% of the remain votes were also from idiots who had no idea what they were voting for but they lost so no one cares. Many people voted leave just because they still think it is WW2 and hate Germans for some reason. Many people voted to remain because they thought the EU was responsible for things it was not. The world is full of idiots which is why democracy will never work.

    Some fishing communities in Scotland voted leave because they are sick and tired of having to share fishing resources Spanish fishing trawlers. Many old people voted leave because they were sick of where the country is going under the influence of the EU. Some industries voted leave because of conflicts with the strict EU regulations over some industries. Some financial people voted leave because they stood to make around 200 million pounds or more in a single night (at least 1 person has admitted to making that much from the leave results).

    In any case the UK has not left the EU at this moment in time. They will only be out of the EU 2 years after the EU receives the official exit letter. This letter has not been sent and currently there are no plans to send it any time soon due to an on going government restructuring.
    Unlike Germany and places, the UK does not really have a problem with that sort of refugee. They have problems with other sorts of refugees which are made worse by the EU. For example they could not deport some hate preachers due to an EU court ruling.

    Many of the refugees in Europe will end up becoming German or other European citizens and hence would have been able to travel to the UK. Turkey's EU agreement and their own policies mean that potentially millions of "would be refugees" would have free access over Europe in years to come.

    A lot of the current refugees are Economic refugees and not war refugees. Although they are meant to be denied asylum, many still are being approved due to lies and a lack of evidence. For example many adults people from African countries are being granted asylum as children because they have no birth certificate, claim they are from Syria and tick all the right boxes. These people will not ever leave.

    Additionally there are a lot of social problems related to some (not all) EU migrants. For example criminal gangs from Europe come here just to commit crimes. Many Europeans have no respect for environmental laws in the UK so commit crimes such as illegal poaching of wildlife and dumping. Many EU people come to the UK for the free health care and unemployment benefits, which the UK is forced to give them due to EU laws. Although attempts to cut that sort of migrant down have been made, the EU heavily opposes it and the results are far from effective.

    You must remember that the UK did exist long before the EU and it was still powerful back then. Additionally the EU is highly dependant on trade with the UK so it is unlikely that will change. All the "doomsday" stuff that is happening is the result of uncertainty within the country and not that the EU was responsible for preventing it. Once more certainty is established then a lot of stuff will rebound.

    Leaving is also making those arrogant EU politicians edgy. Even if the UK ends up worse off it was a good precedence to get them panicking. It also is giving many political movements in other EU countries a push, and hopefully many other European countries will run similar referendums.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  11. chobibo

    chobibo

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    Sounds like selfish reasons, I mean the "million pounds a night" one. I don't quite get the fishing part though, are the locals suffering from poor catch due to the presence of the spanish fishermen? That's kind of like how some of our fishermen can't fish due to Chinese patrol boat presence.

    People should learn to share, for fuck's sake.
     
  12. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Scotland (UK) owns the fishing rights as part of its territorial waters. However the EU controls how fishing rights are distributed and the quotas of fish allowed to be caught. They give Spanish and other European fishing fleets a share of the fishing rights. The result is that Scottish fishermen are often idle and in financial difficulties because they have filled their quotas while Spanish fishing ships are get cheap fish for Spain. If UK regains control over the territorial waters and manages its own fishing rights they can then chase away foreign fishing ships allowing Scottish (and UK) fishermen to exclusively fish the area. Since there are then more fishing shares they can keep active more of the time so fishing becomes a much more financially secure business. Additionally Spain would then have to buy those fish from the UK instead of sourcing it themselves and hence bring in more trade revenue to the UK.

    Sounds kind of pathetic I know but it is the livelihood security of a small group of people. Ironically most of the Scottish caught fish are exported to Spain so its actually very expensive/difficult to buy fish here in Scotland although we should have some of the best freshest fish around.
    Its not that extreme. Also the UK should have the capabilities to keeps its fishing zones secure from illegal fishing so that is not the problem. Its just that the UK fishermen are only assigned some of the fishing rights as opposed to all of them. Selfish yes but it does have positive economic meaning for the UK, and possibly could encourage more people to eat fish here.
     
  13. xxdingo93xx

    xxdingo93xx

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    Woooow, I kinda thought a thread like this would be opend. And I also though it would get out of hand...
     
  14. Rui

    Rui

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    Things rarely ever got out of hand in this sort of threads. It's just a common misconception around here that two people arguing is a bad thing. Discussing is the way to resolve differences or accept them. Shutting threads in people's faces ain't.
     
  15. Keiji

    Keiji

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    I don't know what I think about this Brexit thing, being Norwegian I'm born into a society that has a nearly phobic reaction to the word "union".
    As you may or may not know, Norway is not an official member of the EU, but we have close relations regardless.
    But if the main argument is that of a "purist" racism kind, then I feel sad for the uneducated and downright uncultured population of Britain.

    I find it funny, frankly, how someone living somewhere can consider themselves "better" or "more important" than people living elsewhere.
    Especially when you consider that these days there is nearly no such thing as a "pure" person of any kind, we've all got mixed DNA, we all
    have genes from several different places in the world, and we're all one damned species.

    So if this is the foundation of which Britain decides to declare itself separate from EU, then it is a very sad thing indeed. What economical and
    financial implications this may have is worthless to speculate in, but I do want to say that you all make it sound like just because one bad move
    was made, it means that more bad moves will follow. And that may be, but I personally think we humans are better than that, we don't pave the
    way toward a new mistake by making more mistakes, we learn from them. I have hopes for Britain still. But I am sad about this decision.
     
  16. oger-lord

    oger-lord

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    I think you have difficulties to understand the term national state.
    A nation is a homogeneous society with its language, culture, history.
    Do you think it is okay that the Chinese are replacing the Tibetans and abolish the Tibetian culture?
    Would you say that the Tibetians should not defend themselves because they have a similar DNA like the Chinese? That it would shows that they want to be superior?
    As a reminder: It is not a coincidence that the french revolution was about democracy and the nation. The greek term Demos means folk.
    People have different legal philosophies because of their culture and history, you cannot put them together in a single country and
    expect that they come to an agreement about law.
    All multiethnic countries in europe broke appart when there was no monarch or dictator.
    This is the reason why the EU in its current form is a danger for democracy and why people want to stick to sovereign national states.
     
  17. xxdingo93xx

    xxdingo93xx

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    Maybe "getting out of hand" was the wrong term. What I rather meant is having another controversial thread again, where sooner or later the debate's topic changes to something else ...
    What I've seen so far is this: Brexit -> how to hold arguments -> migrants in germany -> women being raped -> "rage"quit.
    You coul still put a little on-topic comments between this order, though.
     
  18. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    The UK is not a racist country in any way. The xenophobic side of the problem has 3 major components. First is that the EU forces down labour prices since many EU citizens are willing to work for less than it is possible to raise a family on in the UK due to a combination of cheaper living costs in their home country and unsafe/illegal shared accommodation in the UK (which quality of life is too low). Second is that many EU migrants come to the UK with no respect to UK laws and customs, committing crimes purposefully (many thief gangs and beggar gangs) or unintentionally (dumping waste / illegal poaching of wildlife). Finally it also can be for the protection of many EU migrants since they are often forced over to the UK into a life of modern day slavery due to gangs and other low moral organizations inside their home country and unfortunately here in the UK as well (many prostitutes and physical labour workers are in this category).

    The UK has been, and will continue to allow qualified people from around the world to come and work here. A lot of the NHS system is operated by doctors from places like Pakistan and India. Leave will only reduce the number of migrants coming from Europe who do not intend to work here or who are working in jobs that really should be filled by local people.

    As it is the EU was purposely holding off many new and strict regulations until after BREXIT because they knew that if they passed them there was no hope that remain would ever win.

    Oh and the EU makes it impossible for member countries to negotiate trade deals outside the EU without first going through the EU. The very definition of removing ones sovereignty. This is why the UK leaving the EU will be so tricky because they cannot just go up to Spain, France, Germany etc and negotiate trade and other deals with them, instead it all has to be run through the EU and all agreed upon by all member states. On the plus side the UK can make trade deals directly with the rest of the world so it could really boost exports to places like China, India, United States of America, or Russia if it so desired after the leave is initiated.
     
  19. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    Not true. Refugees do not get the german citizenship until after at least 7 years of stay. And even then there are many conditions attached to it.

    "To be eligible for naturalization, a person has to have lived legally in Germany for at least eight years and possess the appropriate residence permit. Foreigners who have successfully completed an integration course are eligible for naturalization after seven years. Persons wishing to become naturalized citizens must also declare their allegiance to our constitution and have a sufficient command of the German language. Knowledge of German is an essential prerequisite for integration into our society. Candidates for naturalization must be able to support themselves without recourse to social assistance or unemployment benefits (Arbeitslosengeld II), unless this is due to circumstances beyond their control; nor can they have committed any serious criminal offences. In addition, they must give up their previous citizenship. In certain cases or for certain groups of persons, however, multiple nationality may be considered."
    Source

    So even the earliest syrian refugees can not get german citizenship until the year 2022. And if the war against Daesh isn't solved before that, I'd say their stay is justified.
     
  20. Pharaoh_

    Pharaoh_

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    Do keep in mind that the majority of the elderly voted for exit, which is a reason why the media have put demographic data under the microscope.
    It is also noteworthy that social research treats the elderly as a sensitive group. "In research, as in wider society, older people are commonly excluded, marginalised or treated as less than fully competent adults." (Specialist Research Ethics Guidance Paper).
    Thus, it is rather precarious when easily manipulable individuals are given a chance to voice their opinion, along with individuals who judge based on their days of no return and not based on the future of the upcoming generations.

    [​IMG]

    The incidents reported as a result of racial discrimination proliferate by the day. The Facebook group 'Coexist' is a great source to keep up with what is happening, and apparently Londoners are equally being victimized. Bigotry, racism and xenophobia have been ratified with the referendum, which is presently the most significant downside. The slurs are targeting everyone who does not look like a 'Brit', white and blonde. It is a disguised neo-Nazi wave, if you ask me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016