A gloomy day #brexit

[Pharaoh_]

Waking up to a bright sun today, cajoling me through my window pane. The evanescent allurement was but a trace of yesterday. Soon, the breeze of disappointment took over.

London, 24th of June, 2016

As you might already know, the United Kingdom has decided to leave the European Union, for good. I am not sure I am receiving the right vibe or if I am contaminating it with my own perception of reality, but people today do look moody in London. A barista from Costa, during our short, frivolous chat, noticed 'cold smiles' today. The results have been purportedly in favor of 'exit', as concomitantly propagandised by the BRExit ordeal.

I inadvertently overheard someone rambling on the results and, despite him being a compatriot of the voters, he called those who voted for exit "rednecks". Now, I come to wonder if this is truly democratic to say, but, at the same time, I am overwhelmed with curiosity as to whether voters are able to predict the future of their choices. A great portion of those deciding to leave EU has been in apparent geographical isolation, which is usually correlated with low exposure to other nations and an uncultivated sensitivity towards internationalism.

In this abyss of unpredictability, we see headlines such as "UK shocked the world with their decision" and the natural question arises: how much better will it be for the nation?

Do not get me wrong, I am not being indignant just because I have recently moved to the UK and been conveniently treated as a co-European. I am concerned, however, about the great masses of people who took refugee in the UK for a better future, the potential rupture in multiculturalism and an imminent heatwave of racism.

What do you think, what will ensue from this?

 

[Chaosy]

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

We're basically fucked. Scotland will inevitably split now, Northern Ireland are likely to follow, and it sounds like Gibraltar are also thinking about it...

So, uh, yay for everybody sticking together in times of crisis!

 

[Pharaoh_]

(...) and it sounds like Gibraltar are also thinking about it...

Plus the Netherlands (not yet official).

 

[Chaosy]

I saw this image, I don't know if it's true but it seems to be correct judging by what Rao said:

 

[Edge45]

Must be quite an effect in the market and with the people. Other than that, I'm thinking, if slightly or probably, UK may become an un-united kingdom.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Scotland will inevitably split now

People in Scotland only voted to stay to avoid the split after the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon threatened us with one. She now is misinterpreting the results of her threat as thinking that means we want an independent Scotland in the EU. Not that an independent Scotland will ever get into the EU or that the EU will even exist then, logic means nothing in politics. Even if everyone in Scotland voted to leave she still would say that people want an independent Scotland. Chances are she would still run an independence referendum in 2 years even if this leave EU referendum was never run.

All the kids here in Scotland are brain washed into thinking the SNP is good. They even lowered the voting age to get as many zombies... I mean brainwashed kids as possible in the next independence referendum. Most of the people wanting an independent Scotland are either unemployed (SNP promises them more free money) or poorly educated.

Northern Ireland are likely to follow

The party who has always wanted to unify Ireland is just using the results to sound bigger than it actually is.

and it sounds like Gibraltar are also thinking about it...

Its a rock in the middle of nowhere with few people. Spain has always wanted it even before this leave EU referendum. Its just like Argentina will likely be demanding the Falklands due to this leave EU referendum despite having nothing to do with the EU.

 

[oger-lord]

A great day for the european nations and democracy!

It gives hope in a time when the people of europe are replaced via mass migration.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Chances are she would still run an independence referendum in 2 years even if this leave EU referendum was never run.

Oh absolutely, it's awful but true. The horrible reality, however, is that with this sword hanging over the UK the independence camp might actually win. And us poor unionists are put between a rock and a hard place -- UK or EU (or, most likely, neither).

As I said, we're basically fucked. Whoever wins, we lose.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Great britain (or should I say Wales and England, since at least scottish people have some brain cells left) just sealed the fate of the last remaining industry on the island.

Without the benefits of duty-free import/export, there is no way that the GB industry can still stay competitive against the european union.


There is a reason why the elite and industry lobbyists pleaded for remaining in the EU. But the british mob has spoken.

God bless direct democracy!

 

[Naze]

So, just being curious here, what whould be the arguments that convinced the people who voted for England to leave EU?

As I'm reading in this thread, you guys make it seem quite obvious that this decision brings mostly downsides to industry, politics and all. Even this Reuters' slideshow of people reacting to the results brings only 2 images of people reacting positively (the Nigel Farage pic and the leave.eu supporters) against a whole lot of images of people going sad about it.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The pro arguments for leaving the EU were immigrants. Because immigrants are obviously the root of all evil for british rednecks.
Also, there are 7 billions that the government saves in EU fonds.

... which is a wet fart against the expected losses of crippling the local industry.

How many refugees did the UK take in when the EU borders were still open? Right... almost zero.

 

[The_Silent]

It seems like more countries is considering leaving as well now that a precedence has been set. Heard Italy, Netherlands/Holland and France mentioned as countries considering leaving aswell. I wonder if that happens, if they'll just create a new, "less intrusive" EU.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I wonder if that happens, if they'll just create a new, "less intrusive" EU.

You mean a useless one?

 

[The_Silent]

I don't mean anything, which is why I put it in the quotation marks. It was in reference to the "leaver" sides main argument about feeling that the EU had too much "undemocratic" power over them.

 

[Zombie]

lost quite some money on the stock market thinking they'd be sensible enough to remain

guess I overjudged the intelligence of humans again

 

[Dr Super Good]

Without the benefits of duty-free import/export, there is no way that the GB industry can still stay competitive against the european union.

Except the same applies for the EU but even more so seeing how the UK was one of their biggest markets and the UK imported more from the EU than it exported as far as value goes. As such it would be very stupid for some of EU's biggest exporting countries to not want to make a deal with the UK fast since it would basically be shooting themselves in their own foot. Additionally since there are no more EU restrictions nothing stops the UK looking for other markets such as China, USA, India etc which are each as large as the EU.

There is a reason why the elite and industry lobbyists pleaded for remaining in the EU.

Actually they wanted stability. If stay in the EU had won the markets and pound would not have crashed like they did.

So, just being curious here, what whould be the arguments that convinced the people who voted for England to leave EU?

That the EU is full of non-democratic nonsense. Strongest of which is that it has control over 10% of the GDP of Europe which it reassigns mostly to needy countries as a form of charity. The bureaucracy itself eats probably over a billion pounds per year. All this done without any real people making any votes.

Other reasons include that Turkey will join the EU in a few years and Turkey is thought to be home to a lot of radical religious people at the moment due to nearby conflicts and its rather strange/agressive ruling government. That the EU makes rules it forces upon the rest of Europe such as limiting the power of home use vacuum cleaners or the shape of fruit and vegetables that can be sold without ever consulting the people who have to live in Europe. A lot of crime in some areas of the UK, especially large cities, can be attributed to tourist migrants from within the EU from places such as Romania who come here just to rob people in the streets and export the criminal proceeds back to their home country.

Practically the only good thing the EU has done recently is to block the SNPs out right ludicrous alcohol tax, something which if they had a referendum on it in Scotland would fail out right anyway but instead the SNP have absolute power and no brains.

How many refugees did the UK take in when the EU borders were still open? Right... almost zero.

Now? About 10,000 odd or so, even still enough to render some previously safe remote settlements to be dangerous for the local people. In 5 years? About 10 million odd as Turkey would hand practically all the Syrians free Turkish nationality and hence be EU citizens as well as many of its own extremist people.

Right... almost zero.

Compared to countries like Germany who made a stupid mistake taking in millions. In 10 years it is reckoned that over 1 in 10 of the population in Germany will not be Germans, a sad way to undo all the population reduction efforts people in Europe have been doing over the last half a century. Oh and you have the EU to blame for that as well because all the refugees in Germany will soon be eligible to bring across family members so they recon the number there of foreign migrants will multiply nearly 10 times.

I wonder if that happens, if they'll just create a new, "less intrusive" EU.

Possibly, but it most likely will be limited to a more exclusive membership program. Even then it might still break down to each country working out deals with each other rather than having them made by people who never see people living in the countries they are governing.

lost quite some money on the stock market thinking they'd be sensible enough to remain

You were foolish to even try playing the stop market around such a thing. Especially seeing how all polls said it was very close.

guess I overjudged the intelligence of humans again

Or you should not gamble. You cannot beat the automated trading systems the banks use.

If people voted to stay then UK would have 5-10 more years of stability but then go to the dogs as it is over run more and more by non-integrating foreign nationals. If people voted to leave then UK would have 5-10 years of instability but then end up stronger in the long run.

 

[Linaze]

Congratulations UK. Can't say whether it'll be a net benefit for you in terms of the economics of it all, but on a strictly philosophical level this was a huge victory, kudos.

 

[Zombie]

You were foolish to even try playing the stop market around such a thing. Especially seeing how all polls said it was very close.


Or you should not gamble.

thank you for your huge wisdom, mom, I swear I'll stay away from the stock market because you said so

You cannot beat the automated trading systems the banks use.

luckily this sentence shows perfectly how much of an expert you are in stock trading, I'll be sure to heed your advice anytime I invest

 

[Zwiebelchen]

That the EU is full of non-democratic nonsense. Strongest of which is that it has control over 10% of the GDP of Europe which it reassigns mostly to needy countries as a form of charity. The bureaucracy itself eats probably over a billion pounds per year. All this done without any real people making any votes.

Non-democratic nonsense that makes a lot of sense. Economic stability in a region benefits everyone. Nobody is helped by letting a country go bankrupt.
The EU is one of the most powerful forces in the world and a pillar of reason. When the EU loses power, who will benefit?
Right, Russia, the US, China ... and god knows what this will mean for world peace with two of these countries ruled by war-mongering idiots (as it looks like Trump will actually make it).

You know what's weird? When a communist country like China is actually considered less of a threat for world peace than the so-called "land of the free".

Other reasons include that Turkey will join the EU in a few years and Turkey is thought to be home to a lot of radical religious people at the moment due to nearby conflicts and its rather strange/agressive ruling government. That the EU makes rules it forces upon the rest of Europe such as limiting the power of home use vacuum cleaners or the shape of fruit and vegetables that can be sold without ever consulting the people who have to live in Europe. A lot of crime in some areas of the UK, especially large cities, can be attributed to tourist migrants from within the EU from places such as Romania who come here just to rob people in the streets and export the criminal proceeds back to their home country.

That is the typical nationalist propaganda bullshit that started all this mess. I can't believe that someone with high education can truly believe that this is true.

Now? About 10,000 odd or so, even still enough to render some previously safe remote settlements to be dangerous for the local people. In 5 years?

This, my friend, is what is the saddest part about this all. That one of the leading industry nations of the world couldn't bring themselves to at least contribute a certain MINIMUM to their responsibility in humanity. 10000 is an insult to all the nations that actually fulfilled their duty as a peaceful wealthy nation in times of need.

Compared to countries like Germany who made a stupid mistake taking in millions.

Stupid mistake. Hah.
I'm a german. Do you know how much taking in a million refugees affected my daily life?
I'll tell you: not at all. I can still eat my bagle peacefully on the street. I can still walk the streets without seeing a beggar. I can still get groceries without getting robbed on my way home. My wage didn't drop. My taxes didn't rise.
Like, literally, if it weren't for the media, I wouldn't even know that we took in "millions of refugees". Because whereever I go, I just don't see them. It didn't change my daily life even in the slightest. And that makes a lot of sense, considering that even one million refugees is only a 1% increase of the population of germany.
So let me ask just a single question:
What the fuck is everyone afraid of?

Besides, the EU took a great part in pushing forward environmental progress. Many of the "stupid regulations" like progressively limiting our carbon dioxide emmissions are a great step into the right direction.

 

[Vengeancekael]

How would a Brexit eliminate the free movement of labour anyway? If the UK now has to (or in 2 years after its official departure) negotiate a trade deal with the EU, it'll have to abide to the same regulations it's been trying to get rid of, no?

In 10 years it is reckoned that over 1 in 10 of the population in Germany will not be Germans, a sad way to undo all the population reduction efforts people in Europe have been doing over the last half a century.

Uhm, what? What do you mean by "population reduction"? Also, how is that even bad; more than half of Luxembourg's population isn't Luxembourgish and we definitely don't have any horrendous problems because of it.

 

[The_Silent]

Actually, here in Scandinavia, a lot of the laws made by the EU is regressive. And they're still forced upon us, we're forced reduce our control with what is put in food, how many hormone-altering chemicals is put in children's toys, chemicals and flavors in cigarettes, fat in food ect. Because the EU is behind us on this. Also, allowing corporations to sue nations was a major blunder, as was allowing corporations to patent "life".

When that is said, I'm not particularly pro leaving, not until more other nations leave at least, just saying that it isn't all sunshine and daisies.

 

[oger-lord]

In 10 years it is reckoned that over 1 in 10 of the population in Germany will not be Germans, a sad way to undo all the population reduction efforts people in Europe have been doing over the last half a century.
​

Not in 10 years, this is the situation right now. In 20-30 years Germans could become a minority like British are already in London.
Bertelsmann (lobbyist group) for example says Germany needs 500.000 migrants every your until 2050. (atm in Germany migrants = refugees)

This, my friend, is what is the saddest part about this all. That one of the leading industry nations of the world couldn't bring themselves to at least contribute a certain MINIMUM to their responsibility in humanity. 10000 is an insult to all the nations that actually fulfilled their duty as a peaceful wealthy nation in times of need.​

Sure, open borders is the only solution....not that it would be better to help the people by improving their home countries....
Their responsibility is the destruction of their own nation and culture to help only a tiny random fragment of the people living in poverty.
A society that created all the scientific knowledge, medicin, democracy and social wellfare that we take for granted.

I'm a german. Do you know how much taking in a million refugees affected my daily life?
I'll tell you: not at all. I can still eat my bagle peacefully on the street. I can still walk the streets without seeing a beggar. I can still get groceries without getting robbed on my way home. My wage didn't drop. My taxes didn't rise.
Like, literally, if it weren't for the media, I wouldn't even know that we took in "millions of refugees". Because whereever I go, I just don't see them. It didn't change my daily life even in the slightest. And that makes a lot of sense, considering that even one million refugees is only a 1% increase of the population of germany.
So let me ask just a single question:
What the fuck is everyone afraid of?​

We have more crimes in Germany, but that does not mean every German is robbed.
You sound extremly naive. We have already areas in Germany where migrants created their own society.
There is a big cultural difference and at the moment there is no pressure to adapt our way of living.
Besides assimilation only works in small numbers, not with 1.500.000+ people who come to a country already struggeling with migration issues.

By the way the idea of mass immigration is the destruction of the european nations and creating a central EU governement.
EU politican Martin Schulz said: "Refugees are more valuable than gold. What they bring to us is the undeviating dream of europe. A dream that we have lost over time."

 

[Dr Super Good]

I can't believe that someone with high education can truly believe that this is true.

It is true though which is the sad reality of it all. Turkey is not a good country recently as it has done some quite unreasonable things. For example it shot down a Russian fighter aircraft for minor airspace violation. Yes Putin denies any wrong doing and yes Russia did fly over Turkey but that is no excuse for an act of aggression, especially if you called someone your friend.

This, my friend, is what is the saddest part about this all. That one of the leading industry nations of the world couldn't bring themselves to at least contribute a certain MINIMUM to their responsibility in humanity. 10000 is an insult to all the nations that actually fulfilled their duty as a peaceful wealthy nation in times of need.

Ask people (not politicians) in Germany. A surprisingly large number will tell you the UK did the right thing. Women who used to feel safe now no longer feel safe. I agree it is not everyone and many of the people are trying their best, however some are not and that is enough to say no.

I'm a german. Do you know how much taking in a million refugees affected my daily life?

Do you live next to any? Seeing how they were settled in remote areas mostly. I know for a fact that many Germans no longer feel safe.

considering that even one million refugees is only a 1% increase of the population of germany.

Yes but each will bring in about 6 other people due to EU mandated family clauses... Additionally they will each have about 6 children... In 20 years 10%? 20%? I am for one happy that the UK can say no to such people.

What the fuck is everyone afraid of?

Not the Syrian refugees. The African, Afghanistan and ISIL refugees who claim they are Syrian refugees.

Besides, the EU took a great part in pushing forward environmental progress.

Yes they save so much energy per year! People here in the UK cannot afford to heat themselves in winter but hay, who cares if a few thousand old age pensioners die due to hypothermia after all it is good for the environment.

Many of the "stupid regulations" like progressively limiting our carbon dioxide emmissions are a great step into the right direction.

Yes so progressive. To bad it is entirely pointless since Indonesia released more Carbon Dioxide last year than Europe ever did in a single year ever. Instead we just have to pay more but hay, we can apparently afford it. Who cares about old people who cannot afford it anyway.

How would a Brexit eliminate the free movement of labour anyway? If the UK now has to (or in 2 years after its official departure) negotiate a trade deal with the EU, it'll have to abide to the same regulations it's been trying to get rid of, no?

Labour movement is not the problem and the UK will always allow skilled people in. As it is tons of medial professional from India and Pakistan are allowed in every year to work in the healthcare system. It is movement of non-worker people into the UK to rip off society which is. For example various European gangs from places like Romania come here to the city centres to rob people blind. They are thrown out during the summer, intentionally, just to return for more looting in the winter. Some city centres have reported several hundred percent increase in crime and there is nothing the police here can do about it. All those refugees could come here in a few years as well, especially those in Turkey.

Uhm, what?

Many of the refugees are coming in as single children or fathers of a whole family in Turkey or other countries. Once they are in under EU regulations and human rights they can bring their entire family. If they are fathers they can then bring their 2 or more wives as well since that is also part of their human rights. Accepting refugees is a huge liability as each one you accept can bring in as many as over 10 others. The refugees in Germany currently are only a small faction of those to come.

What do you mean by "population reduction"?

Instead of having 13 kids, people in Germany have been quite responsible for the last several decades. However a lot of the "refugees" are not especially since their culture encourages large families.

Also, how is that even bad; more than half of Luxembourg's population isn't Luxembourgish and we definitely don't have any horrendous problems because of it.

Because if the people are of the same culture then they have problems with you. It no longer is "multi-cultural" but rather "their culture".

 

[moyackx]

Suscribing... just to keep in touch with the first hand impressions from GB citizen and forth.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

In this thread:
- People telling me (a german) to ask germans about how they feel about the UK leaving
- Non-germans telling me (a german) that my country is destroyed by refugees, despite me absolutely not noticing that
- Non-germans telling me (a german) that the population of my country does not longer consist of a majority of germans, despite me not noticing that either
- Non-germans telling me that women in my country no longer feel safe, despite that obviously being untrue, because none of my female friends ever mentioned feeling unsafe
- A person responding to my cynical answer to how everything is destroyed by refugees with "just see what turkey did to the russian jet" and expecting me to figure out how the hell he managed to switch from one topic to another without the slightest connection


I'm out of this thread. There's just too much baseless bar-room talk going on here. And as a scientist and teacher, I hate arguing with people that don't back their ridicolous claims with hard facts.


But it helped me understand why something like the Brexit could even happen.

Because everyone in the world is getting dumber every day.

 

[Kakerate]

- People telling me (a german) to ask germans about how they feel about the UK leaving
- Non-germans telling me (a german) that my country is destroyed by refugees, despite me absolutely not noticing that
- Non-germans telling me (a german) that the population of my country does not longer consist of a majority of germans, despite me not noticing that either
- Non-germans telling me that women in my country no longer feel safe, despite that obviously being untrue, because none of my female friends ever mentioned feeling unsafe
- A person responding to my cynical answer to how everything is destroyed by refugees with "just see what turkey did to the russian jet" and expecting me to figure out how the hell he managed to switch from one topic to another without the slightest connection

Well to be fair, your saying that since you haven't noticed a change, there is no change is kind of flawed logic. Ideally, whether someone was German or Non-German shouldn't really matter?? Neither you or DSG were really presenting statistics or anything, though I'm sure both of you could get the data to support your arguments if you wanted to. I didn't see you back your claims with hard facts, you know? Idk, just seemed like misguided anger about this post xD

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Well to be fair, your saying that since you haven't noticed a change, there is no change is kind of flawed logic. Ideally, whether someone was German or Non-German shouldn't really matter?? Neither you or DSG were really presenting statistics or anything, though I'm sure both of you could get the data to support your arguments if you wanted to. I didn't see you back your claims with hard facts, you know? Idk, just seemed like misguided anger about this post xD

That's not how debates work. If you claim something, you have to give proof. I don't need proof to doubt your claim.

Also, just out of curiousity: you believe that someone who is not from the country in question knows better how life is in that country than someone who actually lives there?

Yes, residents of a nation are not a hive-mind. But I certainly know more germans than he does, so it's safe to assume that my statistical group of evidence is probably larger than his.

 

[Dr Super Good]

- People telling me (a german) to ask germans about how they feel about the UK leaving

Yes because all Germans clearly must be clones of you so share the same opinions...
Look at BREXIT vote results, some areas voted to stay, others voted to leave. Everyone is technically British much like you are "German".

- Non-germans telling me (a german) that my country is destroyed by refugees, despite me absolutely not noticing that

No one said it is destroyed. Only that there is a good chance it will be unless something is done soon.

- Non-germans telling me (a german) that the population of my country does not longer consist of a majority of germans, despite me not noticing that either

Again, no one said that. People said that there is a high chance of that being the case in several decades time.

- Non-germans telling me that women in my country no longer feel safe, despite that obviously being untrue, because none of my female friends ever mentioned feeling unsafe

Once again no one said that. People said that some women in Germany no longer feel safe due to some "refugees" behaving badly. The same applies to villages in the UK and other European countries with some badly behaved refugees (not all are) in them.

And as a scientist and teacher, I hate arguing with people that don't back their ridicolous claims with hard facts.

Well where are your facts then? Just because you have met 1, or even a few people does not make everyone in the country like that. Look at BREXIT results and you can see that opinions were split.

Also, just out of curiousity: you believe that someone who is not from the country in question knows better how life is in that country than someone who actually lives there?

No one is saying that, but equally well just because you live there does not mean you know what life is like everywhere in your country. Much like in South Africa you can be in a completely safe area where you would think it is the best country in the world, while just a few hundred meters away you will be lucky to not be murdered within an hour.

Also technically your entire argument is flawed because I actually did vote to stay you know... So you wanted me to vote to leave?!

Run the BREXIT vote in Germany and France and you will see that the people there are also not content with the EU. Sure they might majority vote to stay in, however the population will still be as split with a huge fraction saying to leave.

 

[Spacebuns]

I hope you know that many people vote Brexit because there were people who voiced legit concerns about the EU's power over its states but whose voices were drowned out by the leftists who smeared them as "neo-Nazis, racists, fascists" on the media, like they always did to people they disagree with. So these Brexit votes were to spite the leftists, who have been the most loyal foot soldiers of the globalist elites to undermine states' authority. Cameron also aggressively pushed people to vote to remain, so naturally they react against it. The powers that be literally told the people DO NOT PUSH THE RED BUTTON, and the rest was reverse psychology doing its job.

 

[oger-lord]

 

[The_Silent]

"Lefties".. There is plenty of anti-EU people on the left.

 

[MatiS]

Most of mainstream EU leftists (ideological, not economical) are hypocrites. They talk about tolerance, but are the least tolerant people in the world (calling everyone who disagree 'fascist' certainly isn't sign of tolerance)...

As for the Germany, I don't leave there so I don't have much knowledge about the situation there, but I have a friend in Berlin that told me few rather interesting things (rahter weak argument, I know). According to what he said, there are some districts ruled by muslim mafia. Most crimes are not reported to the police, but to said mafia that reacts following the sharia law, and white people are afraid of going to this districts. I wouldn't also believe German mainstream medias, cause most of the medias in my country are owned by RASP, and I can easily see if they lie. And they lie a lot.

 

[MatiS]

As I said, it's weak argument and I know it. Still, I'm 100% sure of the media part, and I can give proofs if you want.

 

[The_Silent]

The media and people are too polarized. Confirmation bias makes sure both sides see evidence of what they believe in.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

No one said it is destroyed. Only that there is a good chance it will be unless something is done soon.

Says who? The tinfoil crowd?

Again, no one said that. People said that there is a high chance of that being the case in several decades time.

Again: back that up with data.

Once again no one said that. People said that some women in Germany no longer feel safe due to some "refugees" behaving badly. The same applies to villages in the UK and other European countries with some badly behaved refugees (not all are) in them.

Some people also think that climate change is a lie.

Well where are your facts then?

I don't need facts to doubt your claims. YOU need facts to prove your claims.

Your argument is basicly "God exists. I can't prove it, but if you doubt it, you have to prove me he doesn't exist first!". That is not how debates work.

No one is saying that, but equally well just because you live there does not mean you know what life is like everywhere in your country. Much like in South Africa you can be in a completely safe area where you would think it is the best country in the world, while just a few hundred meters away you will be lucky to not be murdered within an hour.

Flawed example. Everyone in south africa knows about the issues in the country. Just like I know about the issues in my country.

Also technically your entire argument is flawed because I actually did vote to stay you know... So you wanted me to vote to leave?!

Why is my argument flawed just because you voted pro stay? That doesn't change anything about you claiming things without backing them up.

Run the BREXIT vote in Germany and France and you will see that the people there are also not content with the EU. Sure they might majority vote to stay in, however the population will still be as split with a huge fraction saying to leave.

Many people here are stupid. I never said everyone is the same. But just like you, these people have no idea what they are talking about, yet believe that some refugees are the end of the world. Of course, most of these people never even met a refugee.

 

[oger-lord]

The media and people are too polarized. Confirmation bias makes sure both sides see evidence of what they believe in.

In Germany the media is not polarized, the big media is basically all the same with only a tiny difference.
People are divided into a group who trusts this media and another one who does not trust it at all. (and calls it Lügenpresse that means liar press)
It is often strange when all big newspapers say the similar things about Russia, Syria, EU, Refugees and they are all anti PEGIDA, anti FPÖ, anti AfD, anti Brexit....

 

[MatiS]

Many people here are stupid. I never said everyone is the same. But just like you, these people have no idea what they are talking about, yet believe that some refugees are the end of the world. Of course, most of these people never even met a refugee.

First of all, you just said that all the people that are against the EU are stupid. Second, you said that immigrants are not problematic. That's wrong, for example Cologne 01.01.16. Incests happen, but not on this scale. Also, there is one rather important thing about immigrants. They are not as healthy for the economy as mainstream media say. The biggest proof of that is this. Also, look at the statistics. What type of people vote against Multi-Culti? Not rich, obviously. So not-educated people vote against? Nope, there is something more. Where do poor people live? Country-site and in districts with immigrants. Where do rich people live? Together, they meet only well-educated immigrants, people who came to the Europe for education and career, not people who came here because they were promised money and easy life for free. So people who vote against multi-culti have daily contact with it, an people who vote for do not. It means something, doesn't it?

PS: I'm not saying that immigrants are bad, many of them are good people. I'm just saying that mass immigration from the third world is not a good thing, and we should consider other ways of fixing our population problems.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Says who? The tinfoil crowd?

Again: back that up with data.

Germany's current population is ~80 million. Last year 500 thousand refugees were let in. That means that ~0.6% of the population are refugees. This year even more refugees are arriving in Europe. Germany has already said that it "can cope with at least 500,000 asylum seekers a year for several years" so each year that is ~0.5% of the total population in refugees. Although Germany is trying to block family reunification with asylum seekers how effective that will be is doubtful as family reunification often is interlinked with human rights. As such one can expect a lot more migrants later down the line as part of family reunification, potentially doubling or even quadrupling the number of refugees. By the end of 2018 over 2% of the German population will be refugees, of which by 2024 one could expect that number to rise to 4% or even 8%. Although still not the majority, that is still a huge number that can influence politics.

In some of the countries of asylum seekers they believe in polygamy. They also have large household sizes. Since the average German has a family size of just ~2.0 which is less than them this means that within 1 or 2 generations that percentage could increase greatly. As such by 2040 or 2060 you would be looking at 20-40% of the population being of migrant decent. At this stage they will have enough influence to control politics, laws and even culture. This is already happening in the UK to some extent.

Some people also think that climate change is a lie.

I guess all those German women being raped by migrants is also a lie... Apparently the entirety of Europe is also suffering a massive wave of sexual assault lies. Why do I have a feeling they are not lies?

Your argument is basicly "God exists. I can't prove it, but if you doubt it, you have to prove me he doesn't exist first!". That is not how debates work.

Proofs come in either a complex and tedious proof or a simple disproof. If I say god exists you can either disproof he exits, or proof he does not exist.

Everyone in south africa knows about the issues in the country.

Actually not everyone does. I met someone at University who denied there being any problems. Mind you he lived only inside a secure area where there are no problems.

Why is my argument flawed just because you voted pro stay?

Because...

But it helped me understand why something like the Brexit could even happen.

Because everyone in the world is getting dumber every day.

So by what you are saying by me voting to remain in the EU I must be "dumb". Not a very nice thing to say...

Also the main reason Scotland voted to stay in the EU was because of the stupid SNP leader who wants to break Scotland from the UK. If you think BREXIT was bad, the referendum for that we had a few years ago was not only to leave the EU, but also to leave the UK. Luckily it failed, but again it was very divided. SNP is now hoping to brain wash enough children and use the fact that the "leave the EU" part of the vote has already happened to try and get Scotland independent from the UK with another vote in 2 years. I hope Santa buries the SNP in coal this year.

But just like you, these people have no idea what they are talking about, yet believe that some refugees are the end of the world.

Again with the insults... The word "some" is a misnomer for the number of refugees in Germany. By 2018, 2% of the population of Germany will be refugees at least.

Oh and I am half German so...

 

[Spacebuns]

"Lefties".. There is plenty of anti-EU people on the left.

May I clarify then? The mainstream leftists that dominate academia and establishment are EU drones. Always accuse dissenters of racism.
The working-class leftists are against the EU.

SNP is now hoping to brain wash enough children and use the fact that the "leave the EU" part of the vote has already happened to try and get Scotland independent from the UK with another vote in 2 years. I hope Santa buries the SNP in coal this year.

You wouldn't need to worry about it.

 

[oger-lord]

Some older data from Wikipedia:

• German citizens of immigrant background: 12.3%
• Foreign nationals: 7.7%

And the important point is that in the older generations are German, but when you look at the children:

In 2008, 30% of German children had at least one parent born abroad.​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#Migrant_background_and_foreign_nationality

• Last year 500 thousand refugees were let in

The real number for 2015 is 1.1 million
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...Fluechtlinge-kamen-2015-nach-Deutschland.html

• Since the average German has a family size of just ~2.0

German women get on average 1.47 children (and this number already includes the foreigners with a higher birth rate)
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...eit-hinter-der-erfreulichen-Geburtenrate.html
I think every other nation of the world has a higher birthrate, even Japan.

About criminality: The police has the order that they should hide criminal cases of asylum seekers (to prevent racism) and they are not allowed to make statistics or they are manipluated.
This is the reason why it took serveral days after silvester cologne sexual assaults that it became public.
Some people collected articles of local newspapers to make the criminality that happend this year visible (different icons for sexual assault, robbery, attacks on children, murder):
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1_rNT3k2ZXB-f9z-2nSFMIBQKXCs

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The biggest proof of that is this.

This is not a proof. If you examine this page, you will notice it has basicly the same information value as Buzzfeed.

Also, look at the statistics. What type of people vote against Multi-Culti? Not rich, obviously. So not-educated people vote against?

If we take the referendum as an example, then mostly old people. The majority of young people voted pro-EU.
Unfortunately, the way demographics change, old people get more and more power over the youth.

I'm just saying that mass immigration from the third world is not a good thing, and we should consider other ways of fixing our population problems.

Nobody is talking about mass immigration. Immigration != sheltering refugees. Immigration into the EU is not easy, contrary to popular belief.

Besides: the UK was never even part of the Shengen treaty, which means they never had to take in refugees in the first place. So why exactly are refugees even a thing in this debate?

Germany's current population is ~80 million. Last year 500 thousand refugees were let in. That means that ~0.6% of the population are refugees. This year even more refugees are arriving in Europe. Germany has already said that it "can cope with at least 500,000 asylum seekers a year for several years" so each year that is ~0.5% of the total population in refugees. Although Germany is trying to block family reunification with asylum seekers how effective that will be is doubtful

Why is that doubtful? It's a law which can be enforced. And contrary to popular belief, most asylum seekers actually want to go back to their home country after the war.

as family reunification often is interlinked with human rights. As such one can expect a lot more migrants later down the line as part of family reunification, potentially doubling or even quadrupling the number of refugees. By the end of 2018 over 2% of the German population will be refugees, of which by 2024 one could expect that number to rise to 4% or even 8%. Although still not the majority, that is still a huge number that can influence politics.

Extraprolating from the refugee numbers in one year to 20 years? That's fine, if we assume that Syria actually has a population that can support it. It doesn't. Even if ALL refugees in the world come to europe, that would mean that the number of muslims in europe rise by only 1% (from 4% to 5%).

In some of the countries of asylum seekers they believe in polygamy. They also have large household sizes. Since the average German has a family size of just ~2.0 which is less than them this means that within 1 or 2 generations that percentage could increase greatly. As such by 2040 or 2060 you would be looking at 20-40% of the population being of migrant decent. At this stage they will have enough influence to control politics, laws and even culture. This is already happening in the UK to some extent.

Uhh, the telegraph. Wel that's obviously non-biased research then.

I guess all those German women being raped by migrants is also a lie... Apparently the entirety of Europe is also suffering a massive wave of sexual assault lies. Why do I have a feeling they are not lies?

Uuuuh, articles backed up by the extreme-right AFD party. Well that surely can not be hyperbole.

The cologne incident was an exception, caused mostly by the budget cuts on the local police.

I always have to laugh when someone brings up rape as the typical crime to represent social decay.

Take a look at this and laugh about how ridicolously rare "rape by strangers" is in comparison to rape by friends and family.

Yes, rape exists. Nobody denies that, but you are literally 95% more likely to be raped by someone you know than by a migrant.

The whole "rape culture" thing is a huge hyperbole by femracists.

About criminality: The police has the order that they should hide criminal cases of asylum seekers (to prevent racism) and they are not allowed to make statistics or they are manipluated.
This is the reason why it took serveral days after silvester cologne sexual assaults that it became public.
Some people collected articles of local newspapers to make the criminality that happend this year visible (different icons for sexual assault, robbery, attacks on children, murder):

I have many friends who work at the police and can say for sure that this is bullshit. Nobody is trying to cover up anything. The reason why the cologne police was reluctant to reveal the nationality of the perpetrators was not because they wanted to cover it up, but because the police is forced by law to investigate cases thoroughly before jumping to conclusions. Like, literally, newspapers demanded to know the origin of the perpetrators one day after the incident. At that time, they didn't even had the time to properly question the victims to get the bigger picture.

 

[oger-lord]

The cologne incident was an exception, caused mostly by the budget cuts on the local police.

Maybe it was caused by the behaviour of our assylum seekers.
By the way we know such incidents from the arabian world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_sexual_assault_in_Egypt

According to a 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, 83 per cent of Egyptian women said they had experienced sexual harassment, as did 98 percent of women from overseas while in Egypt.​

I have many friends who work at the police and can say for sure that this is bullshit.

Well, other policeman say different stuff (Manipluation of statistics, not naming the origin of suspects):
http://www.welt.de/regionales/duess...olizei-Statistik-Verbrechen-verheimlicht.html
https://www.derwesten.de/staedte/na...kunft-von-taetern-verschweigt-id11454447.html
https://www.derwesten.de/staedte/bo...kriminalitaet-sind-gefaelscht-id11405034.html
http://www.otz.de/web/zgt/politik/d...urde-im-Stadtwald-von-Gera-vergewa-1716780767

 

[Eagle XI]

Other reasons include that Turkey will join the EU in a few years

Ah' cmon, even an 5-yo child can tell you that this would not surely ever happen before year 3000 something.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Ah' cmon, even an 5-yo child can tell you that this would not surely ever happen before year 3000 something.

... or not until they acknowledge cyprus.

 

[chobibo]

So the UK left EU because of immigration-induced rape/crimes?

 

[The_Silent]

So the UK left EU because of immigration-induced rape/crimes?

That is one of the reasons people voted "leave", not the only one.

 

[Pharaoh_]

As expected,

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-an...ed-in-the-wake-of-brexit-20160627-gpskh1.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/610588862443201/
https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985.223406919&type=3

 

[Zwiebelchen]

As expected,

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-an...ed-in-the-wake-of-brexit-20160627-gpskh1.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/610588862443201/
https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985.223406919&type=3

The worst part about all this?
The UK was never even part of the Shengen Agreement, which means they were never forced by the EU to take in refugees in the first place.

So all this xenophobic propaganda was nothing but a tool to convince the uneducated people to vote for leave.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Ah' cmon, even an 5-yo child can tell you that this would not surely ever happen before year 3000 something.

They do not need to join the EU for their people to travel freely. Due to the deal the EU cut with them they can do that in just a few years from now. Not the same as joining the EU I admit, but still opens up Europe to millions of migrants.

So the UK left EU because of immigration-induced rape/crimes?

Not really, although in some cities it is bad due to ghetto cultures. It was a combination of many things.

However about 20% of the votes were from idiots who had no idea what they were voting for. Like wise one can guess about 20% of the remain votes were also from idiots who had no idea what they were voting for but they lost so no one cares. Many people voted leave just because they still think it is WW2 and hate Germans for some reason. Many people voted to remain because they thought the EU was responsible for things it was not. The world is full of idiots which is why democracy will never work.

Some fishing communities in Scotland voted leave because they are sick and tired of having to share fishing resources Spanish fishing trawlers. Many old people voted leave because they were sick of where the country is going under the influence of the EU. Some industries voted leave because of conflicts with the strict EU regulations over some industries. Some financial people voted leave because they stood to make around 200 million pounds or more in a single night (at least 1 person has admitted to making that much from the leave results).

In any case the UK has not left the EU at this moment in time. They will only be out of the EU 2 years after the EU receives the official exit letter. This letter has not been sent and currently there are no plans to send it any time soon due to an on going government restructuring.

The UK was never even part of the Shengen Agreement, which means they were never forced by the EU to take in refugees in the first place.

Unlike Germany and places, the UK does not really have a problem with that sort of refugee. They have problems with other sorts of refugees which are made worse by the EU. For example they could not deport some hate preachers due to an EU court ruling.

Many of the refugees in Europe will end up becoming German or other European citizens and hence would have been able to travel to the UK. Turkey's EU agreement and their own policies mean that potentially millions of "would be refugees" would have free access over Europe in years to come.

A lot of the current refugees are Economic refugees and not war refugees. Although they are meant to be denied asylum, many still are being approved due to lies and a lack of evidence. For example many adults people from African countries are being granted asylum as children because they have no birth certificate, claim they are from Syria and tick all the right boxes. These people will not ever leave.

Additionally there are a lot of social problems related to some (not all) EU migrants. For example criminal gangs from Europe come here just to commit crimes. Many Europeans have no respect for environmental laws in the UK so commit crimes such as illegal poaching of wildlife and dumping. Many EU people come to the UK for the free health care and unemployment benefits, which the UK is forced to give them due to EU laws. Although attempts to cut that sort of migrant down have been made, the EU heavily opposes it and the results are far from effective.

You must remember that the UK did exist long before the EU and it was still powerful back then. Additionally the EU is highly dependant on trade with the UK so it is unlikely that will change. All the "doomsday" stuff that is happening is the result of uncertainty within the country and not that the EU was responsible for preventing it. Once more certainty is established then a lot of stuff will rebound.

Leaving is also making those arrogant EU politicians edgy. Even if the UK ends up worse off it was a good precedence to get them panicking. It also is giving many political movements in other EU countries a push, and hopefully many other European countries will run similar referendums.