Wow rips?

[Thedraes]

so, i saw some maps around there that contain wow rips like: the chosen ones and shadows of the past(the cinematic)

is that allowed?

 

[Daffa]

Rips from Blizzard Entertainment games are allowed.
Read Map Submission Rules for the detail.

 

[Thedraes]

Thanks!

 

[Dr Super Good]

They have been allowed ever since I made a fuss and finally got them to see that Blizzard really does not care. In fact Blizzard has multiple times promoted the activity by spotlighting maps which had WoW ports in them in both WC3 and SC2.

Of course straight ports are not allowed in the model section for other reasons. However those are more practical and nothing stops you basing a model on a WoW model (as long as you make clear it was based on a WoW model for legal reasons).

 

[Chaosy]

Allowed to use, yes. Allowed to be uploaded here, no.

I personally think it's silly.

 

[Deleted member 242951]

i personally think it's silly.

yup !!

 

[Arad MNK]

I personally think it's silly.

So True.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

They have been allowed ever since I made a fuss and finally got them to see that Blizzard really does not care. In fact Blizzard has multiple times promoted the activity by spotlighting maps which had WoW ports in them in both WC3 and SC2.

Of course straight ports are not allowed in the model section for other reasons. However those are more practical and nothing stops you basing a model on a WoW model (as long as you make clear it was based on a WoW model for legal reasons).

I guess the only reason Blizzard doesn't want the model files uploaded is for legal reasons: this is a commercial site, after all (.com).
And while Ralle probably won't make any real profit with this site (I assume all donations and ad revenue go directly into server upkeep), it doesn't change the fact that he does have a donation system up AND the site being a .com IP.

 

[PurgeandFire]

Blizzard will always have the right to sue anyone who mods their files in any way (including converting to mdx/reverse engineering the m2 format). But that isn't the reason the models aren't allowed to be uploaded to the hive.

Last time it was brought up, the community favored against having a dedicated WoW rip section. The reasons varied from hindering people to make custom models, to resource crowding, to poor quality maps etc.

 

[Flux]

Blizzard will always have the right to sue anyone who mods their files in any way (including converting to mdx/reverse engineering the m2 format). But that isn't the reason the models aren't allowed to be uploaded to the hive.

Last time it was brought up, the community favored against having a dedicated WoW rip section. The reasons varied from hindering people to make custom models, to resource crowding, to poor quality maps etc.

poor quality maps?? why??

 

[Dr Super Good]

The main reason is that direct WoW ports (especially of the newer models) are not at all suited for WC3. Models can be 1-2 MB and the game engine itself can start to perform badly due to their complexity.

All WoW ports to WC3 should be at least slightly optimized. This includes reducing geometry complexity, texture size (and merging multiple textures) as well as removing unnecessary animations.

SC2 has the opposite problem where all but the most recent WoW models are far too primitive for it. With SC2 you need to convert per vertex normals (I think that is what was used) to normal textures as well as add emissive and fine details. The WoW animations are fine for use in SC2 since SC2 models have much higher animation complexity than WC3 (and the actor system enables you to take advantage of special purpose animations, such as a marine shooting up or down based on height).

 

[Chaosy]

All WoW ports to WC3 should be at least slightly optimized. This includes reducing geometry complexity, texture size (and merging multiple textures) as well as removing unnecessary animations.

While I agree about the animation removal and merging textures, reducing the model quality model or texture is wrong. Most people use WoW models because they are of higher quality than pretty much all fanmade models.

 

[Footman16]

Last time it was brought up, the community favored against having a dedicated WoW rip section. The reasons varied from hindering people to make custom models, to resource crowding, to poor quality maps etc.

I don't remember that, I remember the community being in favour of it except that they'd need filesize reductions etc in order to make them useable in the rules for said section.

 

[PurgeandFire]

poor quality maps?? why??

People will include unnecessary imports in their map, bloating the file size. There are many maps that'll randomly have one detailed WoW character model in the midst of a bunch of regular wc3 models. Sometimes it just doesn't fit.

WoW models can work quite well in wc3 maps if chosen correctly and if you go ham with it (see APProject's maps). It is all about achieving a good balance. In multiplayer maps, you have to be really smart about your usage, optimization, and choice.

All WoW ports to WC3 should be at least slightly optimized. This includes reducing geometry complexity, texture size (and merging multiple textures) as well as removing unnecessary animations.

If we had a section, it would be moderated so that the models would be well-adapted for wc3. Geometry might not need to be reduced, but textures would be merged and perhaps it would have a basic animation version for main character models, and maybe base models for animation transfers in case anyone needs to add animations as they need to.

I don't remember that, I remember the community being in favour of it except that they'd need filesize reductions etc in order to make them useable in the rules for said section.

You can read the comments here:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/site-discussion-97/wow-blizzard-game-resources-254046/

Although it says more people agree than disagree, that is excluding particular no votes/"leave a comment" votes. I feel like a decision like this shouldn't be a 50/50 matter. It should be at least 2/3 decision or highly on the side of supporting a new section. Since it was really 50/50 in the poll, most of us staff decided not to pursue it further. No point in dividing a community up over a decision like that, and there are already other communities for it if necessary.

 

[Footman16]

I doubt it would divide the community and it doesn't bother me too much. In fact I don't think it particularly bothers anyone if a section is/isn't there. Perhaps in Hive 2 we could see it?

 

[PurgeandFire]

I doubt it would divide the community and it doesn't bother me too much. In fact I don't think it particularly bothers anyone if a section is/isn't there. Perhaps in Hive 2 we could see it?

People in the thread were bothered by it. It is not planned for Hive 2 unless it gets support. For now, you can go to a site like wcunderground. It has plenty of rips.

 

[Footman16]

For now, you can go to a site like wcunderground.

Bu...bu.... but it's not as good as this site, and you guys aren't there and their rips are usually not reduced.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I'm in the camp of WoW-import critics. I have played numerous maps with WoW imports and almost all of them suffered from the same problems:
1) far too large filesize
2) models that look horrible from birdseye perspective (WoW is a 3rd person game... the models are not designed for top-down perspective).
3) animations that look horrible from birdseye perspective
4) extreme clash of graphical fidelity between hero models and environmental/creep models
5) it encourages lazy design to just go with the established WoW look instead of trying to create your own visual style

Using WoW models is okay if you carefully select them. But most makers tend to just use them wrong, by importing them for the sake of it, not because it suits the map.

To be honest; I'd rather pay my tribute to all the unique original model makers out there than to import boring WoW stuff. And if this site would feature WoW models, I fear nobody would use these original models anymore.

 

[Chaosy]

People in the thread were bothered by it. It is not planned for Hive 2 unless it gets support. For now, you can go to a site like wcunderground. It has plenty of rips.

The problem with that site is that way too many of their models are fucked up.

When standing it's supposed to go through 3 animations, standing 1,2 and 3. (for example)
However some models do something like
standing 1, stand alternate 1, standing 2, stand hit 2, standing 3 which looks fucked up you have to remove animations from the list yourself.

 

[Chen]

Yeah, it's allowed as long as you don't upload it, and as long as it is a rip from Blizzard Games and not from other games made not by Blizzard. There are a lot of sites allowing uploading WoW rips, though using them is risky having big filesizes and looking out of place to low quality models.

 

[Mecheon]

I've always stood by my old basis of saying they're fine to use as bases, but don't just do pure rips. See Olof's dolphin and Dunkeosteus for what I mean

Mind, those two we specifically worked on to fill holes that we needed the animations for

 

[Ralle]

Hey guys, try reading the rules for once .

• Exported materials from other games is not permitted.
  One exception is content exported from games developed by Blizzard Entertainment may be permitted if it is properly adapted to the Warcraft 3 engine and credit is given to Blizzard.
• A resource created by a different author requires proof of the author's documented and verifiable permission.
• It must be explicitly declared in the description which parts of a resource (geometry/textures/animations/other) were not created by you. Furthermore:
  • If they are released under specific terms (or a license), you must ensure that your usage is permitted.
    • Note: Material exported from Blizzard games can safely be used.
    • Examples of terms can be "Do not redistribute this model", "Do whatever you want", "Ask me if you want to edit my model", "Edit the model as you please, as long as you give me credit".
  • If they are released into the modding community, having permission (from the author) is preferred (although not required) as the author may deny you from using them and require their removal.
    • This can be ignored if the terms specify that this usage is acceptable.
    In all cases you must make sure it is properly adapted to Warcraft (file size, team color, poly count, animations).

It is probably due for a rewrite though.

TL;DR, you can use stuff from other places as long as it is (a) from Blizzard or (b) permitted by its license / a permission. We expect you to explain wwhich parts you actually did yourself and that you adapted it properly to Warcraft.

 

[Dr Super Good]

You might be able to get away with other game ports (not Blizzard games) during a model design process if they are used as templates only. As long as the final product is only similar in concept (animations and geometry are considerably different, with noticeably a lot of "hand-work" from the author) one cannot really call it a game port even if at some stage it started as one. Legally it would become impossible to prove if it was based on a port since nothing of the original model remain (you purely used it to help base the model, you might have made everything yourself). You still need to put in a lot of work however, this should be viewed as a modelling aid rather than a shortcut.

Do be aware that some times the actual model concept is subject to copyright. For example anyone making a WarHammer game series model is in theory not allowed. Even if you make absolutely every part of the model from scratch it is still illegal since the concept is trademarked. Companies have run into trouble in the past when their Orcs even vaguely resemble those in the War Hammer series. This technically even applies to model not intended to look like another game's but just happen to be too similar. This is not really enforceable from a moderator perspective since who owns what concepts becomes impossible for a single person to know. I would still advise submitting models inspired by other games with neutral names (eg instead of "Orc like in Warhammer", something like "Futuristic Orc Model").

 

[Avex]

Something I never understood was that StarCraft 2 maps cannot use Blizzard's own IP titles. Like you can't publish a map with "Diablo" in the name. :l Yet they allow ports.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

For example anyone making a WarHammer game series model is in theory not allowed. Even if you make absolutely every part of the model from scratch it is still illegal since the concept is trademarked. Companies have run into trouble in the past when their Orcs even vaguely resemble those in the War Hammer series.

Just a technicality, but:
The artistic style of Warhammer orcs can not be protected by a trademark. A trademark only protects a name (and logo), nothing else.
The visual design can be protected by something called "Registered Design" or "Visual Patent". In germany, we call it "Geschmacksmuster" (Flavor patent).
Now it would be weird for any game company to invoke registered designs on any of their models; Warhammer is kind of an exception here, as they also sell action figures and figurines, hence why a registered design makes sense.
I could imagine Blizzard to have registered a design on Murlocs, but I guess that's pretty much it.

You can for example freely remodel the Dragonborn from Skyrim from scratch, as they most likely won't have a registered design on it.
However, you can not extract the model directly from the game, as this would violate the intellectual property of the original model creator.


For derivative work, see the US copyright office circular 14: Derivative work for a definion about what is allowed and what not:

A typical example of a derivative work received for registration in the Copyright Office is one that is primarily a new work but incorporates some previously published material. This previously published material makes the work a derivative work under the copyright law. To be copyrightable, a derivative work must be different enough from the original to be regarded as a "new work" or must contain a substantial amount of new material. Making minor changes or additions of little substance to a preexisting work will not qualify the work as a new version for copyright purposes. The new material must be original and copyrightable in itself. Titles, short phrases, and format, for example, are not copyrightable.

 

[A Void]

Ah, my old thread where I began this protest, it was indeed 50/50 or similar. The usage of WoW models was greatly used in large high quality projects such as Iceborn..

It is very sad not to be able upload resources from Blizzard games into the section, frankly Warcraft 3 resources already look like a crap (that's why high quality maps never use them). My petition was supposed to spark a change in creation of a new section for Blizzard game rips and associated rules with them. Sadly, it was rejected due to unknown reasons of silliness.

 

[Footman16]

frankly Warcraft 3 resources already look like a crap (that's why high quality maps never use them).

I disagree and that's not why I argue for them.

 

[Dr Super Good]

US copyright office circular 14: Derivative work

Most people do not live in the USA.

The problem with trade mark and copyright of ideas/concepts only applies to few select things which are hard to know about. Most private individuals will never run into them, especially since many companies like it when people re-create their ideas as art since it brings more attention (all those Blizzard fan-art competitions). However not all take such a view, especially if commerce is involved.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Most people do not live in the USA.

The problem with trade mark and copyright of ideas/concepts only applies to few select things which are hard to know about. Most private individuals will never run into them, especially since many companies like it when people re-create their ideas as art since it brings more attention (all those Blizzard fan-art competitions). However not all take such a view, especially if commerce is involved.

I was just referencing this for giving an idea about how a rule example could be worded in the submission rules. I was not saying that this applies to anything here.

 

[InfernalTater]

Allowed to use, yes. Allowed to be uploaded here, no.

I personally think it's silly.

The models in your map don't have to meet the standards of THW. If they did, who would decide which standards they have to meet, and which they don't have to meet? Would we reject maps with models that are not of sufficient quality? Would we reject maps with models that are too simple edits?

The model section is for resources that meet the quality standards of hive, and one of those standards is to actually be created and not simply copied or ripped. Otherwise it would be flooded with every simple model edit, until people searching for legitimate models would have quite a tough time finding them.

The map section is not a modelling section, however; you can use whatever models that will enhance your map. Both sections are as they should be, you have to treat different sections differently because, as just stated, they are different.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

On a side note, how about abusing the "packs" section for WoW rips?

One could just create a collection of higher quality WoW-rips and upload it as a pack without clusterfucking the normal model section. Boom; everyone happy.

 

[InfernalTater]

On a side note, how about abusing the "packs" section for WoW rips?

One could just create a collection of higher quality WoW-rips and upload it as a pack without clusterfucking the normal model section. Boom; everyone happy.

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Ralle]

That's not how the packs section works. A pack consists of references to existing resources that get packed into a single zip.

 

[InfernalTater]

That's not how the packs section works. A pack consists of references to existing resources that get packed into a single zip.

Indeed. Maybe the pack section should be adjusted so that resources can be put specifically into packs rather than as separate resources if the user wishes. There are occasionally large packs of resources that are certainly useful together that simply aren't significant enough individually to be approved. For example, if someone wanted to make custom water, no moderator is going to approve 44 custom tiny skins, but a pack of them would probably be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ardenian]

There are occasionally large packs of resources that are certainly useful together that simply aren't significant enough individually to be approved. For example, if someone wanted to make custom water, no moderator is going to approve 44 custom tiny skins, but a pack of them would probably be greatly appreciated.

Just take Ujimasa Hojos resources.

By the way, the new Hive allows us to upload packs, like it was executed at wc3c.net, doesn't it ?
So I could submit, for example, 5 skins in one thread, couldn't I ?

 

[Vengeancekael]

Indeed. Maybe the pack section should be adjusted so that resources can be put specifically into packs rather than as separate resources if the user wishes. There are occasionally large packs of resources that are certainly useful together that simply aren't significant enough individually to be approved. For example, if someone wanted to make custom water, no moderator is going to approve 44 custom tiny skins, but a pack of them would probably be greatly appreciated.

The sc2 resources section actually has that feature, lol. Maybe that could somehow be moved over to the packs section, idk.

 

[PurgeandFire]

On a side note, how about abusing the "packs" section for WoW rips?

One could just create a collection of higher quality WoW-rips and upload it as a pack without clusterfucking the normal model section. Boom; everyone happy.

-Kobas- did something similar with map terrain templates:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/worgen-doodads-216239/

 

[Ralle]

The sc2 resources section actually has that feature, lol. Maybe that could somehow be moved over to the packs section, idk.

Not as easy as it sounds, no.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

-Kobas- did something similar with map terrain templates:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/worgen-doodads-216239/

I guess that's a pretty good substitute. A bit impractical, though, as I hate exporting models from the import manager (as it doesn't show which textures belong to the model).