Why are WoW models not allowed?

[Pyritie]

And why did you feel the need to perform necromancy on this thread?

It's a sticky, so meh.

 

[brad.dude03]

Yeah, but even still, if it was for a legitimate reason, then fine, but for such a pointless and off topic post, I really don't see why he didn't just create a new thread since it has very little do with "Why are WoW models not allowed?".

And Rober, I don't see how Blizzard could possibly care if people made MDL edits of their models, I mean, if that were true, then couldn't you say that to post an image online made with Blizzard terrain would also be illegal?

 

[rober artua]

Answer to this threads topic :
If you are using Blizzards property (models,textures,sounds and other materials) , then you need to ask Blizzard to allow you using their materials and you need to have their company s brand name . Wow is Blizzard s property thats why you cant upload their models . Same goes for other games such as WC3 , TFT ... but (who cares) WC 3 is an old game and because of sites like this these games are still very popular and Blizzard know this . But WoW is new game and Blizzard improves it everyday and take care of it and it does not want to see wow materials in free sources .

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Using wc3 models: You are using the models open to be used IN ITS OWN GAME.
Using WoW models: You are using models FROM ANOTHER GAME that were never designated for the purpose of being used in the first game.

Let me put it this way, because I love metaphors.

I walk into a public restroom, take a dump, use the toilet paper, wash my hands, and walk off.

Business as fucking usual, minus the fact that I don't use public restrooms because I find them utterly disgusting.

5 minutes later, some jackass busts in and takes the rolls of toilet paper to use for his own damn restroom.

See the difference?

When you're using someone else's stuff, you use them the way they want you to use them, not in whatever way suits your needs.

 

[Pyritie]

I walk into a public restroom, take a dump, use the toilet paper, wash my hands, and walk off.

You forgot to flush.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

You forgot to flush.

No wonder public restrooms are fucking disgusting.

 

[DesKaladA]

Using wc3 models: You are using the models open to be used IN ITS OWN GAME.
Using WoW models: You are using models FROM ANOTHER GAME that were never designated for the purpose of being used in the first game.

Let me put it this way, because I love metaphors.

I walk into a public restroom, take a dump, use the toilet paper, wash my hands, and walk off.

Business as fucking usual, minus the fact that I don't use public restrooms because I find them utterly disgusting.

5 minutes later, some jackass busts in and takes the rolls of toilet paper to use for his own damn restroom.


See the difference?

When you're using someone else's stuff, you use them the way they want you to use them, not in whatever way suits your needs.

sicko

still i get the meatafor

 

[brad.dude03]

Sicko? The metaphor works wonderfully except for the lack of flushing.

 

[HappyTauren]

Hmmm this is odd... Blizzard offered nothing like mpq editor, so nothing besides sounds should be exported. Anyway, you are not earning any profit from wc3 model, and you shouldn't even take credit for editing a model.

 

[DeathSamurai187]

@MySpaceBarBroke: I don't seem to get the metaphor. Well, alright, I do get it, but I wholly disagree with it.

The difference between the situation here and that metaphor is that the guy who busts in and uses the toilet paper in his own bathroom is TAKING it from you, keeping you from using it. In the case of WoW and WCIII, it's not like extracting the resource means the model is thus taken out of the game indefinately. It's extracted, copied, pasted, optimized, and (hopefully) lowered in poly count for proper use.

To put it in terms of your metaphor, if I had an infinite supply of toilet paper, I wouldn't give two shits if someone took a roll for their bathroom. As long as they didn't use it to TP my house.

Added to that, they -are- both Blizzard games, and I think if anyone can get a WoW model to work properly and efficiently in a WCIII map, then kudos to them. Otherwise Blizzard would have done something about it long ago. If they DO have a problem with it and haven't acted upon it, that's probably part and parcel of the severe lack of attention Blizzard's given to WCIII ever since the advent of WoW, with all of the bugs they could be fixing in the World Editor.

Then again, that's what I feel has gotten people a bit upset. The whole thing about keeping Warcraft III just how it is in its own multiverse and stuff. Technically, WoW is the same universe, but many disagree due to the fact that WoW has made some deviations in the plot. Zul'Jin an enemy of the Horde? Illidan survived his fight with Arthas? Kael'Thas joining the Burning Legion? And most shocking of all...the Eredar and Draenei are related!?!?

I may be one of the few WCIII to WoW players who actually doesn't mind these changes/retcons, but I know some people who downright hate it. As such, perhaps some people just don't accept WoW as part of the Warcraft storyline.

Another thing is that, since these models are already done, people are able to get the model shapes they want without having to go through the extensive model creating process most people do with expensive programs (even though some people use those WC models -with- those programs). It's like when some people got mad about easy-to-use third-party tools that allowed people to make awesome models without having to make the sacrifices other modelers made. I think that's a dumb reason to get all bent out of shape about, since this is an art and entertainment community. If people have the creative edge, they can make great stuff with the right tools. The easier it is, the bigger the community gets. Some people have great creativity but lack the skill to fully express it in CG.

As for me, I wouldn't use any WoW models. I think if you can optimize them that's good, but considering that the fingered hands dont fit in with the WCIII look, it seems out of place. However, I am all for WCIII-style models based on WoW concepts. In fact, I'd encourage that. I've still yet to finish Akama. That, and using Sounds and Textures from WoW isn't bad either, as long as you use it on your own model as long as you give credit to Blizzard where credit is due. Modeling has become easier with the creation of certain tools, but skinning is still a matter of art skill. With WoW textures, all it takes is UV mapping skill, which isn't always easy.

WCIII was made as an open-resource game, and I think as long as you're not making money off it, Blizzard probably doesn't have any problem. In fact, I'm sure there are even some fans of both games who'd find it cool to see their favorite WoW characters playable in WCIII environments. It's not like it'd detract from playing the actual WoW MMO.

 

[Kimbo]

To my knowledge blizzard deliberately changed their mpqs to be harder to open and such for reasons ????, could be people porting and taking things from mpq's, but programs got around to this and simply updated.

yeah, wc3 is fairly open source, but wow isnt.

 

[Jacek]

wc3 is fairly open source

Win..............

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Personal use is fine. If you want your map not to be removed because of that issues, you should make your own stuff. One way to do it, e.g textures is to take say a WoW Texture and use it as a map. That is you wanna replace say a glass in that texture with a glass you take from jpg, then you take wood from somwhere else, then metal, use the power of recolour, colorify, transparency etc to modify these pieces of images, leave none from the original texture and there you have it - your own skin. When you do it over an existing texture the skins will fit directly to the needed part if you have initially used the original skin to see how your model will look. I guess no one will sue you like "hey this site is for images and you used a 30x30 size part of my image for your skin, die!"

 

[DeathSamurai187]

WoW isn't an open resource in that you're not allowed to make edits to the game. However, if you use resources from WoW and put them in another Blizzard game that's MEANT to be edited. And as long as you're not getting money off of it and giving credit to Blizzard, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong there.

What WOULD be wrong is if you ripped models from WoW and then used them to create your own MMO game and hosted it as an original creation. Then again, even if you -did- credit Blizzard in that case, it'd be immoral to create your own MMO with their models anyway.

However, map makers aren't creating the actual WCIII engine. That was already done by Blizzard, so by creating maps with things taken from WoW, we're still playing in the same ballfield.

If you really think about it, how much does it hurt if you take a skin from WoW and use it to skin a custom model, be it through UV mapping or using parts of it to edit an already existing skin?

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

We've already been through this...

1) They are too high poly
2) They are too big
3) It is lazy to just rip something from a game

 

[DeathSamurai187]

That's a given, though. I wouldn't want to use models from WoW anyway. But Textures are a different story. They can translate nicely over to WCIII if done right.

But as far as models go, although I don't think it's wrong, I find it pointless since they don't fit well into what the game is.

 

[Kimbo]

Modding is kinda a form of art, and to modelers who mod, using content from another game is considered "cheap" "poor" and dirty. That is why alot of those who deal with the main artistic sides of modding dislike, if not, then I really do pity the poor *******s..

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

@MySpaceBarBroke: I don't seem to get the metaphor. Well, alright, I do get it, but I wholly disagree with it.

The difference between the situation here and that metaphor is that the guy who busts in and uses the toilet paper in his own bathroom is TAKING it from you, keeping you from using it. In the case of WoW and WCIII, it's not like extracting the resource means the model is thus taken out of the game indefinately. It's extracted, copied, pasted, optimized, and (hopefully) lowered in poly count for proper use.

To put it in terms of your metaphor, if I had an infinite supply of toilet paper, I wouldn't give two shits if someone took a roll for their bathroom. As long as they didn't use it to TP my house.

So you wholly support software piracy? If I copy every line of a book and put in on my site, I'm not stealing the book from anyone. But it's the equivalent of stealing.

@Added to that, they -are- both Blizzard games,

So because they are both Blizzard games, it's suddenly okay to take things from one as long as you use it in the other?

and I think if anyone can get a WoW model to work properly and efficiently in a WCIII map, then kudos to them.

A hard working thief is still a thief.

@Otherwise Blizzard would have done something about it long ago. If they DO have a problem with it and haven't acted upon it, that's probably part and parcel of the severe lack of attention Blizzard's given to WCIII ever since the advent of WoW, with all of the bugs they could be fixing in the World Editor.

Ignorance does not mean "yes". Unless they said it's okay, you should not only be asking Blizzard, but yourself whether it's righteous or not. It's a matter of ethics.

Then again, that's what I feel has gotten people a bit upset. The whole thing about keeping Warcraft III just how it is in its own multiverse and stuff. Technically, WoW is the same universe, but many disagree due to the fact that WoW has made some deviations in the plot. Zul'Jin an enemy of the Horde? Illidan survived his fight with Arthas? Kael'Thas joining the Burning Legion? And most shocking of all...the Eredar and Draenei are related!?!?

I may be one of the few WCIII to WoW players who actually doesn't mind these changes/retcons, but I know some people who downright hate it. As such, perhaps some people just don't accept WoW as part of the Warcraft storyline.

.

Another thing is that, since these models are already done, people are able to get the model shapes they want without having to go through the extensive model creating process most people do with expensive programs (even though some people use those WC models -with- those programs). It's like when some people got mad about easy-to-use third-party tools that allowed people to make awesome models without having to make the sacrifices other modelers made. I think that's a dumb reason to get all bent out of shape about, since this is an art and entertainment community. If people have the creative edge, they can make great stuff with the right tools. The easier it is, the bigger the community gets. Some people have great creativity but lack the skill to fully express it in CG.

Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Don't use someone else's hard work for your own wants. If I had a great idea for a movie, should I be allowed to use other people's movie scenes in it and call it my own?

As for me, I wouldn't use any WoW models. I think if you can optimize them that's good, but considering that the fingered hands dont fit in with the WCIII look, it seems out of place. However, I am all for WCIII-style models based on WoW concepts. In fact, I'd encourage that. I've still yet to finish Akama. That, and using Sounds and Textures from WoW isn't bad either, as long as you use it on your own model as long as you give credit to Blizzard where credit is due. Modeling has become easier with the creation of certain tools, but skinning is still a matter of art skill. With WoW textures, all it takes is UV mapping skill, which isn't always easy.

EVERYTHING TAKES SKILL. If you don't have skill, you can either:
a)Learn how to get it.
b)Get someone else to bring your idea to life (WITH THEIR PERMISSION)
c)Give up

WCIII was made as an open-resource game, and I think as long as you're not making money off it, Blizzard probably doesn't have any problem. In fact, I'm sure there are even some fans of both games who'd find it cool to see their favorite WoW characters playable in WCIII environments. It's not like it'd detract from playing the actual WoW MMO.

I think it would be rather cool if I had some book in my library, so I'm just going to photocopy all the pages of that book for myself. The author never said I couldn't do it, so I will.

 

[Dionesiist]

I've an idea.. Let's start porting Wc3 models over to WoW.

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

At least the graphics would be better

 

[sublime]

only one question, if it's not Illegal, it's Imoral, y should u ban it from the site? shoudnt we choose what is moral or imoral for our maps?

 

[sublime]

about the toilet paper motafor...

sorry but STUPID metafor...

wow players will still have the models inside the game, nothin will change for em

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

only one question, if it's not Illegal, it's Imoral, y should u ban it from the site? shoudnt we choose what is moral or imoral for our maps?[/QUOTE
Did you ever wonder why laws were created? SO YOU DON'T DECIDE FOR YOURSELF WHAT'S MORAL OR "IMORAL".

about the toilet paper motafor...

sorry but STUPID metafor...

wow players will still have the models inside the game, nothin will change for em

The metaphor isn't stupid; you are.
In case you haven't noticed, it's still stealing. Ever hear of software piracy? Yeah, that's stealing too. Even if the original owner still has the cd and software, it's still stealing. If you don't know why, you don't deserve to live in a world with computers. And this is coming from a guy that knows about as much about computers as a retarded octogenarian chimp.

And while you're reading this, merge your posts.

 

[sublime]

there is NO law saying that importing wow models is illegal, the hiveworkshop admins decided to not use wow models cause they want to..

and it's not up to the politicians choose what is moral or imoral, but to the society and to us

also, importing wow models is not stealing and have nothing to do with piracy...

u dont get a game for free and ure not making the producers of the game get less money, ure just using their models to another propose, totally different

 

[BlinkBoy]

there is NO law saying that importing wow models is illegal, the hiveworkshop admins decided to not use wow models cause they want to..

and it's not up to the politicians choose what is moral or imoral, but to the society and to us

also, importing wow models is not stealing and have nothing to do with piracy...

u dont get a game for free and ure not making the producers of the game get less money, ure just using their models to another propose, totally different

Sublime, let me explain you how it's illegal.

When you buy WoW, you recieve an special license with some terms that you must agree to recieve that license. Among those terms is that you are not allowed to alter, extract or reverse engeneer material from the game.

What happens if you extract a WoW model and import it to another game?

If you extract the model you are already violating the legal license agreement, and what is worst is that you are sharing material which you were licensed to use to another one who wasn't licensed to. Thus is illegal to extract the model and import it to other game.

What's the special case of icons?

Blizzard released te Icons in a sepparated way with a different license agreement, thus you gain the right to use the icons outside of any software related to WoW's license agreement.

 

[Jacek]

Sublime, let me explain you how it's illegal.

When you buy WoW, you recieve an special license with some terms that you must agree to recieve that license. Among those terms is that you are not allowed to alter, extract or reverse engeneer material from the game.

What happens if you extract a WoW model and import it to another game?

If you extract the model you are already violating the legal license agreement, and what is worst is that you are sharing material which you were licensed to use to another one who wasn't licensed to. Thus is illegal to extract the model and import it to other game.

What's the special case of icons?

Blizzard released te Icons in a sepparated way with a different license agreement, thus you gain the right to use the icons outside of any software related to WoW's license agreement.

Same could be said about MPQ encryption, which was reverse engineered and IS altered by third-party tools. Same can be said about exporting models from wc3 to edit them (reverse engineering .MDX format)

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Sublime, let me explain you how it's illegal.

When you buy WoW, you recieve an special license with some terms that you must agree to recieve that license. Among those terms is that you are not allowed to alter, extract or reverse engeneer material from the game.

What happens if you extract a WoW model and import it to another game?

If you extract the model you are already violating the legal license agreement, and what is worst is that you are sharing material which you were licensed to use to another one who wasn't licensed to. Thus is illegal to extract the model and import it to other game.

What's the special case of icons?

Blizzard released te Icons in a sepparated way with a different license agreement, thus you gain the right to use the icons outside of any software related to WoW's license agreement.

BlinkBoy sums it up nicely.

Anyone who disagrees is officially stupid.

EDIT: About Wc3: They basically gave us the tools to mess with the MPQs and the models.

 

[BlinkBoy]

Same could be said about MPQ encryption, which was reverse engineered and IS altered by third-party tools. Same can be said about exporting models from wc3 to edit them (reverse engineering .MDX format)

the difference is that you alter a wc3 model/mpq but you use it for the wc3 software and you share it with people that have the same license as you do.

and reverse engeenering refers to the software, the MDX format is external to the software itself, also Art Tools already give you the format so it's not needed. The EULA also allows you to reverse engeneer a format, unless the format have or be included in a sepparate license agreement.

 

[Jacek]

maybe. i don't see the point of this thread at all. blizzard hadn't given official stance about wow models, and they are illegal at hive and wc3c. but they are legal on other sites, so if you want world editor help, you go here, if you want wow models, you go to xgm or somewhere and problem solved

 

[BlinkBoy]

maybe. i don't see the point of this thread at all. blizzard hadn't given official stance about wow models, and they are illegal at hive and wc3c. but they are legal on other sites, so if you want world editor help, you go here, if you want wow models, you go to xgm or somewhere and problem solved

ofcourse they made their stance, is all in the license agreement, but since you guys don't like to read and just click accept, you never learn what they tell you.

 

[sublime]

still i think wow models should be legalized but, whatever, i dont own hiveworkshop

 

[BlinkBoy]

still i think wow models should be legalized but, whatever, i dont own hiveworkshop

if you want to legalize them go to blizzard and gain a new license agreement.

 

[SuPa-]

there is NO law saying that importing wow models is illegal, the hiveworkshop admins decided to not use wow models cause they want to..

and it's not up to the politicians choose what is moral or imoral, but to the society and to us

also, importing wow models is not stealing and have nothing to do with piracy...

u dont get a game for free and ure not making the producers of the game get less money, ure just using their models to another propose, totally different

Yeah there is... it's called a copy right

So, go haef teh funz rippingzx w0w moedlz.

importing wow models is not stealing and have nothing to do with piracy...

LOL. How much more of an artard can you be? Well, I'm just going to import this ripped music into my map I got off some site... That's definitely not piracy... -_- idiot

Can this thread be closed? It's pretty... STUPID. Not to mention made almost a year ago

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Yeah there is... it's called a copy right

So, go haef teh funz rippingzx w0w moedlz.

importing wow models is not stealing and have nothing to do with piracy...

LOL. How much more of an artard can you be? Well, I'm just going to import this ripped music into my map I got off some site... That's definitely not piracy... -_- idiot

Can this thread be closed? It's pretty... STUPID. Not to mention made almost a year ago

I think it's what Wolverabid would call a "necessary evil". If we don't have this thread, many more will be made in its place.

 

[brad.dude03]

Yep, if we didn't keep this damnable thread open, there'd be twenty more to take its place.

 

[Schematic]

Immoral... thats a very strong word. The kind of word you use beside drugs and violence. lol not beside using a model from one game in the next. PPl do not only paradoes but copies of other ppls work all the time.. infact in business everything is copy cat taking elements of one persons ideas and using them in your own. Ok... if you outright steal it and take credit for it... yes that is immoral. But what of ppl who just want to use them in a map who don't try to take credit for them just want to use them in a setup real time strategy as opposed on a MMRPG?

Hell this whole set is about ppl taking other ppls models giving them credit and using it in their own maps. So y not just do the same with the WOW models.... just say they are properties of WOW made by the ppl who designed or were hired by Blizzard and move on. You guys are making this into a religous thing like. Thou shalt not useth models from they fellow game makers game. lol. Come on.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Immoral... thats a very strong word. The kind of word you use beside drugs and violence.

Actually, quite to the contrary, immoral can be one of the weakest words you will ever encounter in the English language. It can be used on both a child telling a lie and a mass murderer.

lol not beside using a model from one game in the next.

Your thesis is crap.

PPl do not only paradoes but copies of other ppls work all the time..infact in business everything is copy cat taking elements of one persons ideas and using them in your own.

Shit. You are full of it.
You're not stealing ideas. YOU'RE STEALING ART.

Ok... if you outright steal it and take credit for it... yes that is immoral. But what of ppl who just want to use them in a map who don't try to take credit for them just want to use them in a setup real time strategy as opposed on a MMRPG?

And what if some people just want to watch a movie from the comfort of their home without having to buy a DVD, so they have their friends record it when they go to the theaters?
It's piracy.

Hell this whole set is about ppl taking other ppls models giving them credit and using it in their own maps. So y not just do the same with the WOW models....

BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE MODELS GIVE THEM TO US FOR US TO USE. They weren't made by some guy who does this for a living. They're made by some guy WHO LETS US USE THEM.

just say they are properties of WOW made by the ppl who designed or were hired by Blizzard and move on.

No.

You guys are making this into a religous thing like. Thou shalt not useth models from they fellow game makers game. lol. Come on.

No, you come on. And while you're at it, learn some English. Your spelling is an eyesore

 

[Wolverabid]

This issue continues to be a hotbed of contention.

... ppl taking other ppls models giving them credit and using it in their own maps. So y not just do the same with the WOW models.... just say they are properties of WOW made by the ppl who designed or were hired by Blizzard and move on.

For the most part, it's all been said in the past.

No WoW MODELS (or models extracted from other games) will be approved in our resource section. Maps are an entirely separate issue and are evaluated differently. It's up to the map moderator's discretion as to whether or not to approve them: submit maps that include WoW models at your own risk- there are no guarantees.

 

[Reaver-Lord]

From what I understand, ripping the models and using them in Warcraft 3 isn't illegal, but it could be seen as a contract violation.

The difference is which court system it goes to. If ripping models broke the the Digital Copyright law, then it would go to a criminal court. Since it is a contract violation, it would go to a civil court. (I may be wrong and I probably have the exact names of the two courts wrong.)

Personally, I understand and agree with the site moderator's decision. However, I also support the use of WoW models, but mainly for campaigns or single player.

That's my 6 cents.

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

However, I also support the use of WoW models, but mainly for campaigns or single player.

Well, I personally disagree with that... Have you ever considered how many polies just a simple attachment may have in WoW? After that, consider ripping units... So many polies that one or 2 mixed with a few other WC3 units would probably end up lagging, so you're better off recreating the model yourself.

Model ripping is lame, cheap, lazy and not to mention equally artless. If you recreate a model, you learn more, therefore you become better and more efficient.

That's my 6 cents.

Can I have your 6 cents plox

 

[Reaver-Lord]

It's okay to disagree.

Yes, model ripping is lazy. I think it's artless if you put them in something like DotA or Angel Arena. If a person were to make a good campaign that used WoW models, then I think it still is art one kind.

About all the models flaws and that: Yeah, they exist. About the models in maps causing lag: I guess that would depend on the amount of triggers, the comp that is playing the map, and any number of other problems.

On recreating the models: I'm not a modeler. I'm just have a bunch of story lines in my head, which is why I would use WoW models for thing that haven't been recreated for War3. (The walking flowers for example.)

In the end: you have your opinion, I have my opinion, and there are the rules of the site.

And no, you may not have my 6 cents. They're precious to me.

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

Yes, model ripping is lazy. I think it's artless if you put them in something like D*** or Angel Arena. If a person were to make a good campaign that used WoW models, then I think it still is art one kind.

If it was to go into D*** or AA then it would lag like mad, due to the polycount. PCs can only handle a certain amount of polies ingame, and even the peasant model has rougly 300-400 polies...

About all the models flaws and that: Yeah, they exist. About the models in maps causing lag: I guess that would depend on the amount of triggers, the comp that is playing the map, and any number of other problems.

As I said, poly count would top any of that except maybe leaking triggers.

On recreating the models: I'm not a modeler. I'm just have a bunch of story lines in my head, which is why I would use WoW models for thing that haven't been recreated for War3. (The walking flowers for example.)

I'm not quite the modeler either, but I'd give it a shot. The models are way to detailed for Wc3 use, due to the fact details are useless apart from portrait and cinematics. Why do you think that the current Blizzard models (For War3) are kinda crap quality? You're not meant to see details, is the answer.

And no, you may not have my 6 cents. They're precious to me.

Awww, but I need them to buy me some candy!

 

[HappyTauren]

Kaitech. It wont lag like hell... duh... Problem with wow models is simply the one mentioned in posts above (or few thousand pages back).

 

[Kaitech[SanD]]

It will lag, loads of people say too many polies cause lag O_O

 

[HappyTauren]

not THAT many... jeez most of general frank's models are around wow polycount. People are talking about 3k, 5k, and 25k models that appear around thw.

 

[brad.dude03]

For heaven's sake, it's still illegal and wrong on many levels, regardless of the technicalities, we wont allow it, and that's that.

Until Blizzard comes right out and says "You can rip models right out of WoW and use them in WC3", we wont change our rules.

 

[Dr. House]

what if you make them yourself and let them look like WoW models ???

 

[brad.dude03]

That is perfectly acceptable because it is your work, made from scratch.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I honestly don't understand what's so complicated. You're using someone else's shit without their permission. That's wrong.

 

[kommunist]

I honestly don't understand what's so complicated. You're using someone else's shit without their permission. That's wrong.

Yeahh!Respect for you!