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- Jan 23, 2008
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So he DID mention the dinosaurs?
Who mentioned what? Open up genesis man, unless you don't care about what it says then just brush this off.
So he DID mention the dinosaurs?
Genesis 1:1 NIV said:In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Normally I wouldn't bother bringing it up, but seeing the thought you put into the rest of your post, I don't think that it'll go right over your head when I say, "Cogito ergo sum."We are just walking piles of organic matter and nothing more.
Some part of the human that persists after death is not synonymous with existence of God. In fact, they can be mutually exclusive.I would like to believe in something more than just organic decomposition of your body once you die, but it is far too illogical for me to believe in something such as an almighty entity.
In a literal sense, you might say that. I would not, because neutrality would mean he would have no reason to do anything. In order to have created everything, he must have had a reason, and were he neither any part good, nor any part evil, why should he create reality? What you may say, is that God is not pure good.If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good.
In particular:Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. If he doesn't, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship
As he creates evil, so does he create people who deem him unworthy of worship. I am of the belief that God did not create physics to merely break it when someone asks.not worth your worship
I'd point out that you can do this quite easily. Suffice to say, all the circles will have the same origin.nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap.
Addition does not take place.It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 300.
The above are logic puzzles, and the below, physics puzzles.Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is?
Uh... Things do it all the time?Is it logically possible to walk on water?
Let me tell you the story of the frog that hibernates by freezing solid...Is it logically possible to rise from the dead?
Why don't you go there and find out?Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist?
But as you say, God must be above time. The word "been" implies a past to compare to the present, and hence, time.If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well.
But in such a case that no thing was created but still yet exists, one would be inclined to think it probable that anything and everything, including God, exist.If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?
Some part of the human that persists after death is not synonymous with existence of God. In fact, they can be mutually exclusive.
As he creates evil, so does he create people who deem him unworthy of worship. I am of the belief that God did not create physics to merely break it when someone asks.
Addition does not take place.
Things, yes. Water spiders too. But man?Uh... Things do it all the time?
I was referring to resurrection in a Jesus Christ kind of way.Let me tell you the story of the frog that hibernates by freezing solid...
Why can our conscience not be encompassed by the brain?Hakeem said:The thing I would like to know if you know about, is the thing that experiences your senses, emotions, and thought.
Do you know this concept of which I speak?
Was there ever a point? Does there need to be? I live my life so I can enjoy it. Is that not enough? Tell me, what would you consider a recognizable achievement, or a valid point to something?I sure hope you're right. Otherwise, everything we do is useless and pointless, at least in the long run.
How can one prove its existence beyond a reasonable doubt when he is the one who created reason? If our logic and our life is his signature, how can doing what he wouldn't normally do be considered an act on his part?IHe can still prove that he exists by not breaking physics. There are plenty of ways various coincidences can happen so much to the point that even an atheist would see that that's too much coincidence for it not to be something more.
When you want to believe something, all arguments against it have a tendency to disappear.Also, I believe that people who claim to believe in god do not really do so, at least half of them anyway. They just wish to believe in god. They somehow feel that their lives are meaningless without god. My personal experience has taught me that some even believe in god because "it's better to believe than not believe. If you believe and you're wrong nothing happens. If you don't believe and you're wrong you burn in hell". These people, in my opinion, aren't real believers either.
Green and salty."what is the color of a second?"
"how does sound taste?"
Should an omnipotent deity exist, it would not be restricted to our logic.One more thing. A paradox, but still. If god is indeed all might he can create everything, no matter how silly or stupid. Now, if god can create everything he can create a rock that is too hard for him to carry. But if god is almighty he can carry everything and therefore he can't create a rock that is too heavy. But if he can't create a rock that's too heavy that means that he isn't almighty.
Because no component of physics has these properties. We cannot explain these properties even if we did find anything. We just know and experience them.Why can our conscience not be encompassed by the brain?
Was there ever a point? Does there need to be? I live my life so I can enjoy it. Is that not enough? Tell me, what would you consider a recognizable achievement, or a valid point to something?
I help people because doing so makes me feel like a better person. Religious or not, we all have a sense of morality, and satisfying it is like eating good food.What I meant to say was, if this is all there is than the only point of life is to life it to the fullest. To always do what you want to do and not what you should do(well, don't take it literally). The thing is that if this is all there is than it won't matter how much you've achieved, how many kittens you've saved, how many dollars you gave to charity. I mean, it will mean something to the people you've helped and their children but eventually they'll die as well so, as I said, in the long run it would be pointless.
Religion for me wasn't a choice of : "do good and get to heaven." it was "Alright Elenai, you've done things you can't make up for with community service, so...here is a pardon, and now that you are clean, go out, and do good things and while you are doing them, remember that you aren't doing them now to get into Heaven, but instead because you are now clean, and are now able to do these things not out of guilt, but out of the sheer pleasure of doing them because it is the right thing to do." In essence, much like Myspacebarbroke said, I do not do good for the sake of Heaven, but for the sake of doing it. However, I do so now with a clean and 'the bill is covered' heart. That is what my faith is for atleast. Took down the barrier or fear, so that I could focus on good for goodness sake, after receiving the freedom of Salvation. To use MSBB's food analogy: "God gave me a sink to wash my dirty hands in, before I began to eat for the satisfaction of eating. After having my hands washed...I don't taste the dirt." |
Good = the intended balance of the universe. Evil = perversion of that balance. "Good is a clean sheet, evil is spreading mustard on it" Good and Evil are not 'two bowls on an old pair of scales', you are either perfect, or you are perverted. God has not been deformed, and neither can he be since this is his universe, and his rules thusly. Keep that in mind when using 'good/evil' arguments.
God created everything in a perfectly intended balance "And he saw that it was good", he did not create evil, evil 'became' when members of said creation, deformed themselves, and became 'imperfect', and evil, by disrupting the intended order. They fell, and everything they perverted fell with them.
Testing God, is like a gnat saying to another gnat, "Test this Human, and see if he really is a living thing that invented the strange boxes of deadly light (bug zappers), or is just a giant moving object that we feed upon". We are infact, less than gnats, in that regard.
Two loves of bread, and two little fishes...God's universe, God's rules.
...localized temporary defiance of gravity. Or even the case of the Jesus Christ lizard...sure..he has to run on the water...but it is 'possible'.
We do it all the time, how else are aneurysm's taken care of...
Yes. Is it impossible for me to stand over a bowl of cereal that I made, and still be 'outside' that bowl? Does a worm realize that there are stars in the night sky?
Where did matter come from?
What is the body but a machine made of organic material...fix the machine, put the pilot back in (soul) and there you go...I LIVE AGAINZORZ!!
God is mysterious because we are like that worm that looks up at the night sky and sees the stars. And then you are given a book about stars, but being a worm (or even a human), you still find the night sky to be very mysterious.
Of course there is. If you know what to look for.
If you believe in God, you can choose him. If you do not, you do not choose him, and thus you don't get to live in the universe that God has set aside for those who do. You are instead by your own choice sent to a place 'away from him', this is called 'Hell'. Hell however was not made as a prison of fire, and darkness. It was made merely as a place to put people who don't want to be with God, like fallen angels. The only reason it is "Hell" now is because people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc dwell there, and are free to fulfill all of their guilty pleasures without fear of 'guilt'. In Hell, God is a distant memory, and infact, you are blind to his presence, since you have already chosen that you don't want to feel it. Thus...you are left to your own devices...which are inevitably evil. Put all the evil people in one room, and it will be a horrible place to be.
Attributes to things, that have not said attributes. God is the (creator/designer/evolver/molder/your choice) of everything, and is present everywhere...that does not mean he is a rock...or that he is made of hydrogen, or is a sound wave. He can wrap portions of himself in said things of course. Like a hand in a sock puppet of matter, and energy.
God is separate from time and space, in a dimension of his own. What is a dimension, but a word that we created to define "the area, where an area, where things exist". Likewise, a nature need not be created, a nature need only be gained. God is in many ways essentially the consciousness of existence itself. He may have at one point been a mere spark of conciousness, that over trillions of eons before anything was even first formed, became the God we know of today. Being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent and fully God when the universe was first conceived in his mind, and the path it would take already written down in his imagination. Whether or not the hypothesis I mentioned above is true, does not take anything away from the divinity of God. Even if he was at one point a mere spark, the fact that he is an eternal flame roaring across the eons of eternity...well...it is simply that, he is a blaze at this point, a blaze that is "A God" and which may thus be "The God".
It is easy for God to create a rock too heavy for him to lift. All he has to do is manifest a portion of himself in a form that finds the rock too heavy to lift. Use a mortal's body as a sock puppet, and try to lift it with the natural strength of the mortal. God does not give up his omnipotence, or his omni-self. But he still finds the rock too heavy to lift, until he decides to do it another way, and lifts it thus. He is almighty, he simply limited himself for that moment, to prove a point. |
Ugh, back in the thread... Those arguments are against A) Judeo-Christian God, B) (A) god/s that cares if we care about him/her/it/them
I also have seen definitive proof of a god anyways. A friend and I carpool to campus and back. We're getting into his Jeep, and stop dead in our tracks. A granola bar wrapper was stuck on the side of the front passenger-side chair. It was like a seventy degree angle. I challenge you to look me straight in the eyes and tell me some sort of divine being was not totally jerking our chains.
It's more like God gave you dessert. He gave you further incentive to do good things for people. But at that point, can you still consider yourself finishing your meal for the sake of eating good food, and not just so you can have dessert? The intentions of one who calls himself Christian are no less ambiguous as that of one who calls himself atheist."God gave me a sink to wash my dirty hands in, before I began to eat for the satisfaction of eating. After having my hands washed...I don't taste the dirt."
That's all the proof I'll ever need.
Where do I sign up for this Granolaism?
It's more like God gave you dessert. He gave you further incentive to do good things for people. But at that point, can you still consider yourself finishing your meal for the sake of eating good food, and not just so you can have dessert? The intentions of one who calls himself Christian are no less ambiguous as that of one who calls himself atheist.
I need not dessert to eat my dinner...I would eat my dinner otherwise, dessert is something of a surprise at my house, not expected. I do however need to wash my hands before I eat...I can't stand the thought of eating with dirty hands.
God created everything in a perfectly intended balance "And he saw that it was good", he did not create evil, evil 'became' when members of said creation, deformed themselves, and became 'imperfect', and evil, by disrupting the intended order. They fell, and everything they perverted fell with them.
If god is all mighty than he knew they would fall, as he knows everything that will be, and thusly having not changed that he didn't stop the creating of this deformities even though he knew they would happen.
Do gnats worship us? Do you have a small church in your backyard that gnats built to worship you and light candles for the dead gnats? No. We have a mind, we have free will, "given by god".
Oh, come on. At least try to give a plausible explanation. I'm not here to beat down religion, I am here to find somebody that can prove me wrong because I want to believe. Things like this only make me see more and more that that won't happen
Same as above. The resurrection was definitely not anything medical. And if it was that would just prove more to the point that Jesus might have been a fake.
This is another example that's lacking in many aspects. Of course it's possible to be outside of a building and exist, but is it possible to be above time and exist?
From aliens? From Allah? From god? From Lucifer? From Zeus? From Buda? From Joseph Smith? From a highly complex series of chemical reactions that can only occur in the void? What is the body but a machine made of organic material...fix the machine, put the pilot back in (soul) and there you go...I LIVE AGAINZORZ!!
Yeah, except worms don't have a mind. You can't compare a being that acts like a robot on instinct to a human. You can't compare because other creatures on this planet primarily act on instinct while the human acts as he wishes. Yeah, I'm sure you would say god and Jesus Christ, a Muslim would say Mohamed and Allah while some African tribesmen will think that the crocodile is the all might prophet. Once again I'm not trying to beat down religion, but if there are so many of them and if only one of them is true it's pretty much based on where you're born and what the people in your surroundings believe.
You speak of it as if you've been there. For all you know hell might be a green swamp, a boiling pot of yellow water or nothing at all. Your rationalization of hell is somewhat logical, but it might be completely wrong, especially if it's Lucifer's domain.
Just think for a minute about this statement. If he can lift it in another way that means that he can't create a rock that is too heavy for him which means he isn't all mighty. Once again, please don't let my comments offend you. I don't want to bash religion, I just want to see an explanation that's at least remotely plausible. Oh, and a note to the "doing good deeds" comments. You do them for selfish reasons, because it makes you feel good at the very least. You do something completely self-sacrificing and then you can look yourself in the mirror and say "I helped someone today". It makes you feel good. I'm not saying I don't do good deeds. I do them a lot, but that's because I like helping people. |
There are no chemicals in the void, and where did this void come from anyway?From a highly complex series of chemical reactions that can only occur in the void?
An apt analogy to an omniscient mind. The point of the analogy was that there are things beyond mortal comprehension.Yeah, except worms don't have a mind.
That would be the conclusion, not the evidence.a Muslim would say Mohamed and Allah
If truth is relative, it isn't truth.if there are so many of them and if only one of them is true it's pretty much based on where you're born and what the people in your surroundings believe.
Omnipotence includes the ability to remove your omnipotence.If he can lift it in another way that means that he can't create a rock that is too heavy for him which means he isn't all mighty.
As opposed to being self-destructive?Oh, and a note to the "doing good deeds" comments. You do them for selfish reasons
And if I don't look myself in the mirror?You do something completely self-sacrificing and then you can look yourself in the mirror and say "I helped someone today".
If truth is relative, it isn't truth.
If god is all mighty than he knew they would fall, as he knows everything that will be, and thusly having not changed that he didn't stop the creating of this deformities even though he knew they would happen.
Do gnats worship us? Do you have a small church in your backyard that gnats built to worship you and light candles for the dead gnats? No. We have a mind, we have free will, "given by god".
Oh, come on. At least try to give a plausible explanation. I'm not here to beat down religion, I am here to find somebody that can prove me wrong because I want to believe. Things like this only make me see more and more that that won't happen![]()
Yeah, except worms don't have a mind. You can't compare a being that acts like a robot on instinct to a human. You can't compare because other creatures on this planet primarily act on instinct while the human acts as he wishes.
Yeah, I'm sure you would say god and Jesus Christ, a Muslim would say Mohamed and Allah while some African tribesmen will think that the crocodile is the all might prophet. Once again I'm not trying to beat down religion, but if there are so many of them and if only one of them is true it's pretty much based on where you're born and what the people in your surroundings believe.
You speak of it as if you've been there. For all you know hell might be a green swamp, a boiling pot of yellow water or nothing at all. Your rationalization of hell is somewhat logical, but it might be completely wrong, especially if it's Lucifer's domain.
Just think for a minute about this statement. If he can lift it in another way that means that he can't create a rock that is too heavy for him which means he isn't all mighty.
Once again, please don't let my comments offend you. I don't want to bash religion, I just want to see an explanation that's at least remotely plausible.
Oh, and a note to the "doing good deeds" comments. You do them for selfish reasons, because it makes you feel good at the very least. You do something completely self-sacrificing and then you can look yourself in the mirror and say "I helped someone today". It makes you feel good.
I'm not saying I don't do good deeds. I do them a lot, but that's because I like helping people.
But what if it was up to him to make a rock that he himself cannot lift, without changing forms?"I am in the form of a rabbit, I cannot lift this rock. But behold, I have exited this rabbit's body, and I am now a spirit, watch as I manipulate gravity to lift this rock."
But what if it was up to him to make a rock that he himself cannot lift, without changing forms?
Yes. Now answer this: Where is the corruption in my motives? Considering this is the very thing I've been arguing since I started using that metaphor, I'd really like to know. In fact, that was the very first thing I've stated. I do good things because they make me feel like a better person the same way eating good food makes me feel good. And you state I should wash my hands. Is there some kind of incentive more pure than doing good things for the sake of doing good things? Is there some little ninja lying in the back of my head that's the source of my feeling good for doing good things, and this ninja is actually having me do good things for another reason?I would eat my meal, even without dessert. I would do good deeds, even without the incentive of Heaven.
However, I would not eat my meal (do good deeds) without first washing my hands. Because then I would taste the dirt, with my meal. (I would have a corrupted reason to do good deeds, and my reasoning would not be pure).
This was a literal statement, to show where I was coming from, IE: connecting what occurs in my real life, to what I was saying prior to that.
I can't stand eating with dirty hands: I therefore, would not want to enjoy a good deed, with corrupt motives.
Did I explain it better this time?
...So that's all religion is to you? Giving a good first impression? Whew, I thought I was missing something big here.Everyone likes doing good deeds, it is supposed to feel good.
That however, is not the purpose of religion, or belief. Morality is built into everyone, whether or not it is buried or turned off. But the problem is, that we get dirty and grimy while we are doing said good deeds, or especially evil deeds.
Religion is where you take a bath, get the grime off, and look presentable while you are doing good deeds.
"Helping grandma pick up sticks in the yard is a good deed...but it wont shampoo your greasy hair."
...So that's all religion is to you? Giving a good first impression? Whew, I thought I was missing something big here.
Yes. Now answer this: Where is the corruption in my motives? Considering this is the very thing I've been arguing since I started using that metaphor, I'd really like to know. In fact, that was the very first thing I've stated. I do good things because they make me feel like a better person the same way eating good food makes me feel good. And you state I should wash my hands. Is there some kind of incentive more pure than doing good things for the sake of doing good things? Is there some little ninja lying in the back of my head that's the source of my feeling good for doing good things, and this ninja is actually having me do good things for another reason?
It most certainly is. A soul could be a natural occurrence just like the rest of the universe.I'm curious if it is possible to believe in Life after Death if you do not believe in some kind of God
Then maybe they ought to have open minds and research these things, eh? (Or have internet access.The point is, if there is only one truth, one god, one correct religion, that means that most of the world's population will be wrong in their beliefs simply by being born in the wrong part of the world.
The point is, if there is only one truth, one god, one correct religion, that means that most of the world's population will be wrong in their beliefs simply by being born in the wrong part of the world.
He expects you to do good things. He wants you to be pure. He will only allow those who are pure into his presence. If I were covered in mud would your mom let me into your home? Why should God then allow someone caked with dirt into his house?...We who are all covered in muck.
You can't know what he expects. For all you know the correct religion is satanism![]()
P.S. The metaphors are getting annoying and confusing in some parts...
A) All humans share your definition of purity.
B) A god would be perfect.
You're assuming:
A) All humans share your definition of purity.
B) A god would be perfect.
Both of which are not certain (in fact, the first is entirely wrong).
Elenai, you assume a god's definition of perfect is in line with your own.
Also, you assume that there is only one god.
Yes, but what is pure is what varies person to person.
Obviously not, since two out of the three words you used means she never had sex.Elenai said:I don't believe anyone would look at a person who has been a well known prostitute for 30 years, and say "she's a pure and innocent virgin".
But the definition of "without blemish" varies.Elenai said:Purity may be interpreted differently by different people, people may use synonyms, or make excuses, or even twist the idea. But purity remains at its core "without blemish", or else if it did not mean "without blemish" it would be a completely different word.
Its nature is an interpretation by humankind.Elenai said:What is 'purity' is not defined by what mankind thinks it is, but 'purity' is defined by what 'it is' already by its nature. We just gave it a name.
But seeing as you as a human cannot know what this definition of "perfect" is, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.Elenai said:Well...I assume that if I created a world, and made up the rules, that I would be perfect in that world, since I am the one who would have defined perfection. If that makes sense.
/snip
But the definition of "without blemish" varies.
Its nature is an interpretation by humankind.
But seeing as you as a human cannot know what this definition of "perfect" is, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Maybe someone considers "without blemish" to be "incredibly successful" while someone else considers it to be "incredibly kind."Elaborate?![]()
No, to base X on Y you need knowledge of Y. As we have no knowledge of what "absolute purity" would be, we cannot base anything on it.An interpretation, is but a liquid idea, based on something solid.
But you can't relate it to reality.But a being like God would, if he created the idea in the first place.![]()
Maybe someone considers "without blemish" to be "incredibly successful" while someone else considers it to be "incredibly kind."
No, to base X on Y you need knowledge of Y. As we have no knowledge of what "absolute purity" would be, we cannot base anything on it.
But you can't relate it to reality.
Notice how you, in those descriptions, are making assumptions of "without blemish" means - your definition is circular.The kind rapist, the successful billionaire who cheated for his millions, the merciful murderer, the generous thief, the honest liar.
Without Blemish, is an odd thing is it not?
You can't. That's what I've been getting at for a while.Then...How could anyone hope to achieve it?
Because you can't know what a god would think.Why not?
Notice how you, in those descriptions, are making assumptions of "without blemish" means - your definition is circular.
You can't. That's what I've been getting at for a while.
Because you can't know what a god would think.
But sin is the Judeo-Christian interpretation of purity.Alas, I was but musing on the failures of every human being, of whom does not meet the definition of 'blameless, and pure'.
Purity is to be without pollutant, and sinful natures are pollutant.
Keep in mind that you often muse as to humankind's shortcomings. If god created them as such, perhaps murderers, liars, cheats, etc, are pure?But what God thinks, is if God is indeed 'the god' of the universe, already made apparent in how he has manifested his purpose to mankind.
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There is more of a point I am trying to make, and my vocabulary and etc is a little shaky, but I am a bit weary, and will try to explain it a little better tomorrow. And I may need to write something like a summary to fully compile what I've been trying to say.