What happens after death?

[Teh_Ephy]

Religion, when conducted properly, is based upon experience, not logic. The point of a properly conducted religion is bettering ones' self. There is also a reason that faith is a common synonym for religion. Drop it, please. I need to know who else would want to go to IPU instead of FSM.

 

[Gausslander]

You can't get close to God, if you smell like garbage.

How can you say that when Jesus only bathed once?

 

[CMarket]

You can't get close to God, if you smell like garbage.

But the thing is, once again, that you simply can't know. For all you know god loves garbage.

 

[Shados]

Good and Evil are not 'two bowls on an old pair of scales', you are either perfect, or you are perverted. God has not been deformed, and neither can he be since this is his universe, and his rules thusly.

I am not perverted, nor can I be unless I choose to be, since I am my self and no other, and thus only my rules and ethics are applicable to me. Unless there's no free will, in which case, what the fuck does it matter anyway?

God created everything in a perfectly intended balance "And he saw that it was good", he did not create evil, evil 'became' when members of said creation, deformed themselves, and became 'imperfect', and evil, by disrupting the intended order. They fell, and everything they perverted fell with them.

By what means can a 'perfect' system become 'imperfect'?

Where did matter come from?

Why does it have to come from somewhere?

I help people because doing so makes me feel like a better person. Religious or not, we all have a sense of morality, and satisfying it is like eating good food.

Morality is built into everyone, whether or not it is buried or turned off.

Morality is not 'built into' everyone. Morals are created and defined by societies, groups and individuals, not by nature or some objective standard. For example, 'feral children', children who grew up in the wild or in social isolation do not have any knowledge of social norms or morals, and do not develop any of their own.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Morality is not 'built into' everyone. Morals are created and defined by societies, groups and individuals, not by nature or some objective standard. For example, 'feral children', children who grew up in the wild or in social isolation do not have any knowledge of social norms or morals, and do not develop any of their own.

Whatever the consensus a society has come to on what morality is, I believe all humans have a belief on what is wrong or right stemming from factors like self-benefit and sympathy for things similar to oneself.

Alas, I was but musing on the failures of every human being, of whom does not meet the definition of 'blameless, and pure'.

Purity is to be without pollutant, and sinful natures are pollutant.



And the leading point has thus been made

Doing good deeds is all fine and dandy, that is what God expects, but what we lack, and what he wants, is purity.

That is the point of 'Religion', over morality. You can't get close to God, if you smell like garbage.

What's the difference between doing something sinful and doing something wrong? What makes someone impure as opposed to a person who does bad things? Is it just Christianity?

 

[Elenai]

But sin is the Judeo-Christian interpretation of purity.

...Come again?

Keep in mind that you often muse as to humankind's shortcomings. If god created them as such, perhaps murderers, liars, cheats, etc, are pure?

Sin isn't purity. God did not create mankind as sinful beings, he created them as innocent. Mankind however, has chosen to get themselves dirty.

How can you say that when Jesus only bathed once?

Jesus is pure, and sinless. He was baptised for a different purpose, than to 'clean himself'. Baptism likewise, is not how you clean yourself from sin, repentance is. Christ never needed to repent.

But the thing is, once again, that you simply can't know. For all you know god loves garbage.

You can know...and for all you know, he despises garbage. As it is recorded, and as common sense dictates.

I am not perverted, nor can I be unless I choose to be, since I am my self and no other, and thus only my rules and ethics are applicable to me. Unless there's no free will, in which case, what the fuck does it matter anyway?

This isn't your universe, your rules are trumped by those of whom are above you.

On that note: Have you ever lied?

By what means can a 'perfect' system become 'imperfect'?

The perfect system isn't perfect anymore, that is where Salvation is now required.

Why does it have to come from somewhere?

Exactly...Why can't something have been here forever?

Morality is not 'built into' everyone. Morals are created and defined by societies, groups and individuals, not by nature or some objective standard. For example, 'feral children', children who grew up in the wild or in social isolation do not have any knowledge of social norms or morals, and do not develop any of their own.

Buried, or turned off. They still have some form of morality. Our ancestors didn't just wake up in their cave one day and go "UGH!!!!! (lets create morals)" and upon said point...if you don't have a starting point at which the feral person created, developed, or was given a moral code...then it could not have evolved into mankind's society.

What's the difference between doing something sinful and doing something wrong? What makes someone impure as opposed to a person who does bad things? Is it just Christianity?

There is no difference.

The only differing factor, is that a Christian is clean, and has God to guide him to doing better things, and to resisting sinful actions. It might be the only factor, but it is the only factor that matters. "Are you clean, or not?"

No man can hope to achieve purity, no individual can hope to earn, or obtain what God wants for them, on their own will. That is why God has to offer it as a gift.

 

[CMarket]

You can know...and for all you know, he despises garbage. As it is recorded, and as common sense dictates.

No, you can't know. You can't know what the right religion is. You can't know if a right religion even exists and you most certainly can't know that there is a god who wishes for us to praise him. If that was the case then there would be no point in believing as belief means that you think something is there, but don't know.

Exactly...Why can't something have been here forever?

You just contradicted yourself. If matter didn't come from anywhere that means that there was no god to create it.

 

[Elenai]

No, you can't know. You can't know what the right religion is. You can't know if a right religion even exists and you most certainly can't know that there is a god who wishes for us to praise him. If that was the case then there would be no point in believing as belief means that you think something is there, but don't know.

Yes I can. How can you know that I am not right? For all you know, I am, and you are wrong.

To be honest...'you can't know, because I say so' isn't the best way to debate. For the sake of argument, I know my own God, and I know my own faith.

What if God was an orange...If he was an orange, he would not be the god I was talking about, and the whole concept of whom I am talking about would be irrelevant. Since he would not be God, but instead be an orange.

I am talking about God, the god I know. I am not talking about 'the god you can't know, because you might not be right, because others believe differently."

"What if, What if, What ifs"

What if electrons where in reality very, very, very tiny, little cherries? How can you know, if you yourself have only seen an electron in a science book? You can't...

In essence: I can know what he wants, because said God being the God I am talking about, and not some random concept of a god, this God gave us his word, which has at its core remained unchanged. And even without written word, it is apparent in how the universe works, what God wants. "Innocence, above Corruption, with expectancy on everyone doing their part to be good."

We expect the same of our children, why then should God being the ultimate father, not expect the same of us?

Get the point?

You just contradicted yourself. If matter didn't come from anywhere that means that there was no god to create it.

When have I ever said that? If matter didn't come from anywhere, then that means that God need not have come from anywhere either. Look at the bigbang thread, and see my off meter poem for reference.

I believe in Creation by a god of Science, God who formed the very idea when he told the seed of existence to sprout, that tiny seed he held in his hand, that singularity of matter.

As such, "there was no god to create it", you say this inaccurately. God's presence need not be there for the marble block of matter to have existed, but God's presence is needed, for said matter to be carved into the statues of the universe.

Contradiction debunked:

 

[Shados]

He's pointing out that the current concept of time in physics is that it is an aspect of physical reality intimately linked to our spatial dimensions, and not at all an abstract concept.

This isn't your universe, your rules are trumped by those of whom are above you.

Irrelevant. In having free will, we control ourselves. We are what we choose to be, what we define ourselves to be. Our rules surrounding ourselves are trumped by no one.

The perfect system isn't perfect anymore, that is where Salvation is now required.

You did not answer the question. I repeat, "By what means can a 'perfect' system become 'imperfect'?"

Buried, or turned off. They still have some form of morality. Our ancestors didn't just wake up in their cave one day and go "UGH!!!!! (lets create morals)" and upon said point...if you don't have a starting point at which the feral person created, developed, or was given a moral code...then it could not have evolved into mankind's society.

You don't need a starting point, you just need natural selection.

 

[Elenai]

Irrelevant. In having free will, we control ourselves. We are what we choose to be, what we define ourselves to be. Our rules surrounding ourselves are trumped by no one.

I have free will...can I embezzle some money and get away with it?

You did not answer the question. I repeat, "By what means can a 'perfect' system become 'imperfect'?"

I seem to have misread, forgive me:

A perfect system becomes imperfect when someone 'fiddles with it' and corrupts it from its purpose.

Like: The devil introducing the concept of 'lying' to a universe where lying is not existent. (yes a somewhat diluted example, but still..)

You don't need a starting point, you just need natural selection.

Which requires a starting point.

 

[~Void~]

I have free will...can I embezzle some money and get away with it?

Yes, until the others who have "free will" as well come impose it on you as an act of vengeance.

 

[Elenai]

God has free will

 

[~Void~]

God has whatever the believer wants him to have. It's irrelevant.

 

[Elenai]

God has whatever the believer wants him to have. It's irrelevant.

Is it?

 

[CMarket]

Is it?

Well, obviously if it's up to the believer.

I have free will...can I embezzle some money and get away with it?

Politicians do it all the time.

 

[~Void~]

I'd say so, because anything that is relative to one's beliefs, in a discussion between people who each believe many different things or don't know what they believe, doesn't prove or explain anything.

 

[Elenai]

Why is God (being the assumed ruler of the universe/creator, being assumed to exist for sake of argument) having free will...irrelevent...if he does indeed have free will, to impose his rules upon those who have free will below him...in his creation?

Just because he is God and is believed in, does not mean he becomes irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Politicians do it all the time.

But I wont get away with it.

 

[PurplePoot]

El, when you say that you can know what a god would define as pure, how could you? "Common sense" is what you are taught to believe - it varies from person to person. What makes your definition right?

 

[Elenai]

My definition is right (I believe), because it is the simplest and most..lol...pure answer. It doesn't haggle with conditions. You are, or not, blameless.

Water with minerals, is not pure of minerals. Distilled water...is pure water. To use a real life example.

My definition is based on that sort of concept, and thus, I believe it is right, and thus, how 'I know'.

And God being higher than I, would he not have a similar idea of purity, if indeed purity at its most basic form is to be 'without a corruptant', no matter who is interpreting the word.

 

[Blarf]

blank is white. since a blank sheet of paper is white. and nothing looks like black since black is nothing.

Necro-quoting but I have to say, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. White paper was developed by humans, therefore is not blank. Blank just means empty of mars against the original color/background. And nothing looks like black since black is "nothing"? But black is something. Black is black.

/rantoff

 

[PurplePoot]

My definition is right (I believe), because it is the simplest and most..lol...pure answer. It doesn't haggle with conditions. You are, or not, blameless.

Water with minerals, is not pure of minerals. Distilled water...is pure water. To use a real life example.

My definition is based on that sort of concept, and thus, I believe it is right, and thus, how 'I know'.

And God being higher than I, would he not have a similar idea of purity, if indeed purity at its most basic form is to be 'without a corruptant', no matter who is interpreting the word.

El, there could be a million different sets of parameters. Also, you are still making the mistake of subjectively defining the problem - what is a "corruptant" is also your own definition.

Finally, the "simplest" answer would be to say that "everyone is pure".

 

[Elenai]

Corruptant is 'sin' in this context.

The problem with everyone being pure however...is that we are not...and reality shows this.

 

[Gausslander]

Corruptant is 'sin' in this context.

The problem with everyone being pure however...is that we are not...and reality shows this.

Do you ever stop and think that maybe 'purity' is only biblically required for people because it is practically impossible? And failure leads to guilt, guilt leads to sin, then forgiveness and the psalm... so forth?

 

[Elenai]

Do you ever stop and think that maybe 'purity' is only biblically required for people because it is practically impossible? And failure leads to guilt, guilt leads to sin, then forgiveness and the psalm... so forth?

BINGO!

So...you are saying, that mankind can't achieve purity since it is impossible?

 

[Gausslander]

BINGO!

So...you are saying, that mankind can't achieve purity since it is impossible?

In all honesty; yes.

 

[Elenai]

In all honesty; yes.

At last we come to the apex of the point

That is why Heaven is a gift, that you cannot earn.

Fore if God requires purity to be in his presence, a purity which is unachievable by anything man can do, then God must offer it, and thus did. ^_^

 

[~Void~]

Then it's just a paradox created by some clever pope on a power trip?

 

[Gausslander]

At last we come to the apex of the point

That is why Heaven is a gift, that you cannot earn.

Fore if God requires purity to be in his presence, a purity which is unachievable by anything man can do, then God must offer it, and thus did. ^_^

... I take it that in order to keep followers clinging to the religion they needed to make things that all normal people experience (I.E., impurity, greed, lust...) forbidden.

 

[PurplePoot]

Corruptant is 'sin' in this context.

The problem with everyone being pure however...is that we are not...and reality shows this.

And 'sin' is an arbitrary definition based on an arbitrary belief, therefore it is no less subjective than any other arbitrary definition.

 

[Elenai]

Then it's just a paradox created by some clever pope on a power trip?

No.

... I take it that in order to keep followers clinging to the religion they needed to make things that all normal people experience (I.E., impurity, greed, lust...) forbidden.

No.

And normal people experience it, but alas, it is still wrong to act upon these temptations.

And 'sin' is an arbitrary definition based on an arbitrary belief, therefore it is no less subjective than any other arbitrary definition.

Sin is doing wrong, doing wrong is committing a malicious action were you do not have the right to do so. It is not subjective, it is objective being based on the very nature of humankind.

To commit a sinful action, or do a bad deed, contaminates you, and makes you impure, and upon that you must be cleaned, and that is the point of religion. But in order to be clean, you must be given that purity by God, because you cannot achieve it yourself. Heaven being the bonus reward, for those who choose to be clean and choose to be with God who requires it, and wants it, this purity, in order for you to be with him, 'ye who are his creation'.

 

[~Void~]

No.

Why not? Do explain.

 

[Elenai]

Why not? Do explain.

Because there are too many 'shoestrings' (as I call them) invested into the concept, to be made up so..well...druggishly.

 

[Gilles]

Shoestrings? Metaphors or comparisons can be a nice way of explaining things, but you use them in every single post. I have no idea what you're talking about anymore Elenai.

 

[KingDedede]

I have no idea what Im talking about anymore either. But, heres my point of view on this whole thing. A Maniac goes around and says a small lie, that comes out with BIG results, war, conflict, and kids argueing with their parents about it (Thats me). Think of it this way. White is all the colors put together right? (Not when you use crayons..) And the opposite of white is black, which must be No color. If your eyes rot, you cant see color, so its black as it is No color. It will be like that forever. No thought, no anything pretty much.

 

[Gausslander]

No.
And normal people experience it, but alas, it is still wrong to act upon these temptations.

"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

- Friederich Nietzsche

... Most everything you do could be considered greedy, lust is a natural part of life that is bonded with mating...

In order to achieve purity; we must not continue our natural habits? For instance, children get greedy and take a cookie from the cookie jar (sin, natural in the desire for food -.-), or they fight their sibling over a video game and refuse to let their sibling play it (sin, natural desire for entertainment)... and you would disrupt them - not because it is against your house rules - but because you have to be pure in order to go to heaven; in order to be with god?

When you take The Holy Bible, which (in my view) is meant to be a guide book for the nomadic, and apply it to modern science and happenings in the world... you become a brain-washed melodramatic who cannot see the truth even when it is right in front of his eyes. They most likely invented 'sins' so people would do the right thing, they made somethings that are very human-like sinful so they would feel guilty and turn to religion. And this worked, partly, in making people more 'pure' in their way of life (the golden rule, etc.), and did some good for awhile. But then... people like you who take everything literally, the creation of the heavens, and the earth... even though the church has been proven wrong on several accounts by many famous philosophers, are just reviving the past of Christian extremism and not letting the past be the past. Christianity should've died out many years ago, as now it is merely a set of guide lines for a world, that, for the most part, is no longer in need of ancient literature being transcribed into scientific meaning.

And your 'shoestrings' as you call them... are more like 'compensating for truth strings'.

Sin is doing wrong, doing wrong is committing a malicious action were you do not have the right to do so. It is not subjective, it is objective being based on the very nature of humankind.

To commit a sinful action, or do a bad deed, contaminates you, and makes you impure, and upon that you must be cleaned, and that is the point of religion. But in order to be clean, you must be given that purity by God, because you cannot achieve it yourself. Heaven being the bonus reward, for those who choose to be clean and choose to be with God who requires it, and wants it, this purity, in order for you to be with him, 'ye who are his creation'.

This is the same kind of religious backwash as mentioned above.

 

[Hakeem]

Notice how you, in those descriptions, are making assumptions of "without blemish" means - your definition is circular.

A definition is not circular, it is something you define so that you may build things upon it.

Where would math be without defining numbers an operations?

I am not perverted, nor can I be unless I choose to be, since I am my self and no other, and thus only my rules and ethics are applicable to me. Unless there's no free will, in which case, what the fuck does it matter anyway?

Because true free will is irrelevant to us, being embedded in time, we do not know the future. We are free to choose in our minds, whether the choice was already known or not.

Why does it have to come from somewhere?

Because if it never came from anywhere, it would not exist.

For example, 'feral children', children who grew up in the wild or in social isolation do not have any knowledge of social norms or morals, and do not develop any of their own.

I'd ask you to provide the control group, but biology often limits the creation of one. In perfect isolation, one would starve to death. Is this situation natural, or must it be fabricated?

Feral children pick up the social norms and habits of the wild.

Humans are, in their natural state, in groups. This is part of our evolution. We are the least selfish animal to be discovered to date. Strictly by our evolution to humans do we have built in morals.

No, you can't know. You can't know what the right religion is. You can't know if a right religion even exists and you most certainly can't know that there is a god who wishes for us to praise him.

In the sense of there being no absolute truth, then sure. I've heard arguments that lead me to conclude God as much as I assume mass is responsible for gravity.

when you say that you can know what a god would define as pure, how could you?

See above.

And 'sin' is an arbitrary definition based on an arbitrary belief, therefore it is no less subjective than any other arbitrary definition.

I quoted this as a demonstration of saying nothing.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Sin is doing wrong, doing wrong is committing a malicious action were you do not have the right to do so. It is not subjective, it is objective being based on the very nature of humankind.

Tell that to a lawyer.

To commit a sinful action, or do a bad deed, contaminates you, and makes you impure, and upon that you must be cleaned, and that is the point of religion. But in order to be clean, you must be given that purity by God, because you cannot achieve it yourself. Heaven being the bonus reward, for those who choose to be clean and choose to be with God who requires it, and wants it, this purity, in order for you to be with him, 'ye who are his creation'.

He's requiring something that only He can give? Then under what condition would He give it?

 

[CMarket]

Well, I'm getting more and more confused on what the discussion is about, but, I have a question.

If god is indeed all powerful and so on and so forth and he can do anything, knows anything, etc. why does he need a bunch of small meaningless creatures like us to worship him? Is he really that petty that he needs our worship? I really don't get it.

 

[Dark Master]

I have an idea! I shall kill myself, and when I reborn, I will really tell you what happens after death...
ARGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
My last words - don`t delete my profile in Hive...

 

[Joe-black-5]

my religion say that God does not need our worship but he is testing us if we can give few minutes each day from our time in worshiping (that is why Muslims worship god every day)

 

[Dark Master]

Wow! I was talked to Archimonde, Arthas, Lothar, and many others!
Or it was a dream......

 

[Joe-black-5]

so you are 12 year olds i see :/ ...

 

[Dark Master]

Yep. Why?

 

[CMarket]

Wow! I was talked to Archimonde, Arthas, Lothar, and many others!
Or it was a dream......

You're twelve? I was thinking more along the lines of four or five. Stop bashing other people's beliefs, especially with stupid arguments such as this one. If you believe they are wrong express it in a non-offensive, smart way and since you need to be at least semi-mature for that and you obviously aren't just leave this thread.

 

[Dark Master]

Death... I think after death... is nothing, you don`t exist. You don`t see, hear, eat, think...
Simple, nothing happens... I don`t know...

 

[Elenai]

Tell that to a lawyer.

Shark school

He's requiring something that only He can give? Then under what condition would He give it?

Accept the gift, that is all. There is no string attached, if that is what you are asking.

If god is indeed all powerful and so on and so forth and he can do anything, knows anything, etc. why does he need a bunch of small meaningless creatures like us to worship him? Is he really that petty that he needs our worship? I really don't get it.

He doesn't, but everyone likes to be praised, and loved. God included.

He has angels to worship him all day. But he wants to include mankind in the grand scheme of things, to give his created children the gifts and opportunities that all fathers want to give their kids, and like a father wants his children to respect, admire, and praise him.

 

[Gilles]

"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

- Friederich Nietzsche

"God is dead." - Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." - God

I find it funny that Nietzsche is this praised philosopher, that winds up going crazy. I tend not to trust crazy people.

He's requiring something that only He can give? Then under what condition would He give it?

You simply have to be open to God. Many Christians believe that we are given the choice to enter eternal life, or be condemned to hell. If we have been sinful, and reject God all our lives, we would choose hell freely. If we accept God, we'd choose heaven. CS Lewis wrote about this in one of his books. It does a much better job explaining it.

 

[Dark Master]

Death is the last stage of life (i`m dying now - so, i am alive, but i shall day for 2-3 seconds, doesn`t matter anyway) what all body ends with functions, and then, we have no functions, we are dead. So, when, we die, it happens nothing, what Berzeker said - no light, no dark, nothing happens...

 

[CMarket]

He has angels to worship him all day. But he wants to include mankind in the grand scheme of things, to give his created children the gifts and opportunities that all fathers want to give their kids, and like a father wants his children to respect, admire, and praise him.

Yes, except God isn't a man, that is, he isn't a real father. Real fathers want respect/praise... from their children but god is a divine super natural being that doesn't care for stupid, petty earthly delights like that. Being praised is something only a man would enjoy, same goes for sex, admiration and so on. Those are petty things, far too trivial for a divine all powerful entity.

 

[Elenai]

Yes, except God isn't a man, that is, he isn't a real father. Real fathers want respect/praise... from their children but god is a divine super natural being that doesn't care for stupid, petty earthly delights like that. Being praised is something only a man would enjoy, same goes for sex, admiration and so on. Those are petty things, far too trivial for a divine all powerful entity.

Why wouldn't he want to be praised, and loved, and to love, his creation?

He is a father, in the ultimate sense of the word. He made 'you' in his image, he brought you into life, watching over you as you grow, intervening in tiny subtle ways. Why would you not be like a son to him, even though you are not 'begotten'?

Just because he is God, and is above us, does not mean that he has to be completely polarized against us in how he works.

We are above the animals, but do we not enjoy being pet, and scratched, etc, and given a treat, or toy? (I know I do)