What happens after death?

[PurplePoot]

Since it has been scientifically proven that nothing can destroy energy

Conservation of energy is faith at best. It only works some of the time.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

My god.. Anyone care to say I was wrong?
Look where it went.

 

[Gausslander]

My god.. Anyone care to say I was wrong?
Look where it went.

What?
We're just having a discussion, your meaningless comments have nothing to do with the prevention or current ongoing of the event. If you don't wish to participate, don't post here.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

What?
We're just having a discussion, your meaningless comments have nothing to do with the prevention or current ongoing of the event. If you don't wish to participate, don't post here.

It was only directed at a user I was talking to earlier.

If you don't like my post, don't read it.
continue your discussion.

 

[Dynasti]

Hmm, what happens? Well if you're really unlucky you will end up as a fly, or a vasp

 

[brad.dude03]

Since no one has openly begun a trollfest, *yet*, I'm allowing this discussion to continue *for the time being*.

 

[Aschy]

Guys please listen to Brad.dude some of us wish to hear what others have to say.

 

[Gilles]

What exactly are we talking about? I'm trying to prove that Christians teaching their children about God and Christianity, is not brainwashing. What are you trying to prove?

No, if you don't bring it up at all you aren't brainwashing them. Besides, if you teach them to think critically, you are also not brainwashing them, as they actually weigh the issue.

So teaching your children about Christianity, and bringing them up as Christians is brainwashing?

Because they had their heads up their asses, and didn't want to admit the bible was wrong?

What exactly are you talking about?

Just because I mention one person doesn't mean I exclude everyone else... Besides, the "I'm offended" line is getting really really old and cliché.

Fair enough, sorry. Although you did insinuate that I wasn't actually trying to think about things.

 

[PurplePoot]

What exactly are we talking about? I'm trying to prove that Christians teaching their children about God and Christianity, is not brainwashing. What are you trying to prove?

If you teach them that god does exist and to accept the bible etc, then yes, you are brainwashing them. You are teaching them to follow dogmas rather than think for themselves.

What exactly are you talking about?

The sentence I quoted?

 

[muffin]

i think that you go to a world of nothingness where you cant feel anything and everything is white.

 

[Gilles]

If you teach them that god does exist and to accept the bible etc, then yes, you are brainwashing them. You are teaching them to follow dogmas rather than think for themselves.

I would say that your lack of a belief in God, is a dogma.

As well, the Catholic church teaches that it proposes, not imposes. Brainwashing is forcing someone to believe something, usually something against their own belief.

The sentence I quoted?

I'm confused, sorry.
Let's take Galileo. How did the Church deny evidence in his case?

 

[Hakeem]

As Scyth said. It's pretty hard to brainwash someone into being nonreligious, since agnosticism involves looking to science and such for answers, while brainwashing teaches you to follow dogmas and reject evidence.

I'd like to point out that since the existence of God is not solved, atheism is a "religion." Being "nonreligious" would be agnosticism: having no idea one way or the other.

If you are looking elsewhere for answers, you can be classified as "brainwashed" in some form.

I'm not convinced that it can be kept within the realm of logic. At some point our concept of reality breaks.

Maybe our concept or reality is flawed then.

So you think that since you like belief, you can make up whatever you want?

Whatever floats your boat, eh?

How does one go about brainwashing someone to not believe in a god?

By teaching them that something that might exist does not.

the amount of people

There are lies, damned lies, and you know what comes next.

Religion does not open your mind, religion merely encases it in a protective shell.

And science provides a straight jacket. Maybe it's not very tight right now, but that's because we barely know anything.

But the restriction is there. Most people, and a lot of scientists as well, would reject, and laugh at, the idea of going faster than the speed of light. Heck, somebody is likely to respond to this post saying it is impossible. Maybe writing a paragraph or two. I wouldn't respond however, because I'm not an expert, and it wouldn't be worth the time to do anything other then say, "JFGI."

You cannot 'force' anyone to believe anything, or force them into a religion, or 'lack' of it.

You can do the latter, but the former is impossible without true brainwashing. You can force someone into a religion or lack thereof, but whether they believe it or not is another question. A better word for the subject we've bean discussing is "conditioning." It is true that you cannot condition a belief into children. While your children may be Christian because you are, they are only Christian because you are. They can think all the things about Christianity are true, but until they sit down and really think about it, nobody knows whether or not the truly believe what they say is the truth.

Somehow, the people critically participating in this discussion seem to have gotten to the point of really thinking about it. Despite us all having some form of something to follow that would make us what we formerly associated ourselves as when we were too young to know better. The only reason conditioning is a problem at all is because people don't like to be wrong. They like to think that what they knew already is the truth. You'd think people would want to know the truth more than being right...

if every religion claims to be the one "true" religion, then how come there are so many religions out there?

I'm not sure I see how the two relate. Islam does not make that claim.

Think of the roman and greek gods... the beliefs in that religion has altogether nearly ceased so is it no longer the "true" religion?

How should we know?

 

[PurplePoot]

I would say that your lack of a belief in God, is a dogma.

As well, the Catholic church teaches that it proposes, not imposes. Brainwashing is forcing someone to believe something, usually something against their own belief.

And when they are young and accept what you tell them, then you are forcing it down their throat.

And the reason my lack of belief in god is not a dogma is because I assess the situation critically and decide for myself; I do not have someone else telling me what or how to think.

I'm confused, sorry.
Let's take Galileo. How did the Church deny evidence in his case?

Putting him under house arrest, calling him a heretic, rejecting his work, etc, etc, etc.

I'd like to point out that since the existence of God is not solved, atheism is a "religion." Being "nonreligious" would be agnosticism: having no idea one way or the other.

Hence why I said agnosticism.

If you are looking elsewhere for answers, you can be classified as "brainwashed" in some form.

Such as?

Maybe our concept or reality is flawed then.

Of course.

By teaching them that something that might exist does not.

But you have to teach them something, and it's hard to teach them to reject empirical/scientific evidence in favour of their belief when the route you are raising them to is empirical/scientific thought.

There are lies, damned lies, and you know what comes next.

Heh, hence why I didn't provide a number. However, the fact alone that the amount of agnostics is low helps show this, but beyond that you tend to find a lot more critical thinkers under the agnostics side (by percent, not by number), though this is partially due to the fact that uneducated people tend to remain religious as their parents did, while educated people choose one or the other.

 

[Gilles]

And when they are young and accept what you tell them, then you are forcing it down their throat.

So you shouldn't teach children? You should leave them to make their own decisions?

And the reason my lack of belief in god is not a dogma is because I assess the situation critically and decide for myself; I do not have someone else telling me what or how to think.

You're insinuating that I'm not assessing the situation carefully again. There are plenty of converts to Christianity, don't you think they assessed the situation critically?

Putting him under house arrest, calling him a heretic, rejecting his work, etc, etc, etc.

Copernicus taught the same thing, and the Church did not deny his theory. They didn't reject evidence, they were unhappy with Galileo for the ways he went about his work.

 

[PurplePoot]

So you shouldn't teach children? You should leave them to make their own decisions?

You should teach them to think critically and make their own decisions.

You're insinuating that I'm not assessing the situation carefully again. There are plenty of converts to Christianity, don't you think they assessed the situation critically?

I never said that, in fact I agree many of them do. I'm referring to indoctrination at an early age.

Copernicus taught the same thing, and the Church did not deny his theory. They didn't reject evidence, they were unhappy with Galileo for the ways he went about his work.

They rejected Copernicus and censored his work.

 

[Gilles]

You should teach them to think critically and make their own decisions.

So if you child makes a decision, you as a parent should never intervene?

I never said that, in fact I agree many of them do. I'm referring to indoctrination at an early age.

What indoctrination at an early age?

They rejected Copernicus and censored his work.

As far as I know, the Church supported his work, especially Pope Clement VII. I could be wrong.

As well, as I said earlier, brainwashing involves forced belief, and the Church does not force itself on anyone, it simply tries to educate people on the truth.

 

[Hakeem]

Such as?

Any time you get information from someone else instead of doing the experiment and finding out for yourself. I believe my old sig said it: "Trust allows lies to exist." Lies are a means to manipulate you.

Heh, hence why I didn't provide a number.

You don't need to:

this is partially due to

If we're going to use logic, we don't use statistics. Furthermore, the all too important control group is missing in empiricism involving biology.

you tend to find a lot more critical thinkers under the agnostics side

See, I'll defend theism in general most of the time, but if you generalize theism in a negative context, I can ask the specifics of Islam.

So you shouldn't teach children? You should leave them to make their own decisions?

I'd teach them only sufficiently for them to make their own decisions.

So if you child makes a decision, you as a parent should never intervene?

I'd intervene only if there was physical danger. I'd also allow my children to come to me for advice. I'd prefer that actually.

 

[Gilles]

I'd teach them only sufficiently for them to make their own decisions.

So would you take them to Church to teach them about Christianity?

I'd intervene only if there was physical danger. I'd also allow my children to come to me for advice. I'd prefer that actually.

What about intellectual danger? Or more importantly to me as a Christian, moral danger?

 

[Hakeem]

So would you take them to Church to teach them about Christianity?

Heh, I should learn more about Christianity so I can educate them enough to decide if they want to learn about it.

What about intellectual danger? Or more importantly to me as a Christian, moral danger?

The way I see it, I never had a say in the matter to begin with. Nobody has ever had a say in matters of intellect or morality for me. Try as they might.

 

[Joe-black-5]

In my religion we believe that after death the spirits go to the a world named "barzah" (its an arabic word) there the spirits stay until its time for judgment day. after judgment day there is heaven and hell.
if you want to imagine that world like we think about it its like a black and white movie with no one speaking and everyone seems tired and depressed.

 

[PurplePoot]

Any time you get information from someone else instead of doing the experiment and finding out for yourself. I believe my old sig said it: "Trust allows lies to exist." Lies are a means to manipulate you.

If you just take everything else someone else says, you aren't thinking critically.

See, I'll defend theism in general most of the time, but if you generalize theism in a negative context, I can ask the specifics of Islam.

It isn't necessarily negative, it's just that the uneducated masses tend to follow the same religion as their parents, and there weren't a lot of agnostics/atheists in the past.

What about intellectual danger? Or more importantly to me as a Christian, moral danger?

No. Not at all. Values are subjective, so forcing them down your kid's throat is not at all allowing them to think for themselves.

So would you take them to Church to teach them about Christianity?

Personally, I would do nothing more than mention its existence if they want to learn about it. Why? Look at how many religions there are out there, many of which aren't widely practiced. You can't cover them all, by which point you are biasing the person.

 

[Gilles]

No. Not at all. Values are subjective, so forcing them down your kid's throat is not at all allowing them to think for themselves.

So we should just let kids grow up without parenting?

Personally, I would do nothing more than mention its existence if they want to learn about it. Why? Look at how many religions there are out there, many of which aren't widely practiced. You can't cover them all, by which point you are biasing the person.

So you wouldn't care if your 3 year old son wanted to be Catholic? You'd take him to Church?

 

[Gausslander]

So you wouldn't care if your 3 year old son wanted to be Catholic? You'd take him to Church?

I'd wait until he got a bit older first.
Though I would tell him my point of view prior and thereafter, and let him make his choice gradually as he grows up. He'll come to understand my point of view and (if he chooses to do so) the church's; and come to his own conclusion about it all.

 

[PurplePoot]

So we should just let kids grow up without parenting?

There's a difference between raising a kid and indoctrinating them. There are more than just extremes, you know.

Besides, raising them to be a critical thinker is parenting.

So you wouldn't care if your 3 year old son wanted to be Catholic? You'd take him to Church?

I would wait until 10 or 12 when I trust them to not just be doing whatever other people tell them. At which point, if it is their choice to be catholic, well, it's their decision, not mine.

 

[Elenai]

A question PurplePoot....

Are we evil, if we raise our children (brainwashing as it has been termed...which is a rather negative word), as Christians?

And by raising, taking them to a church, telling them what we as parents believe, celebrating Christmas, Easter, showing them the history behind the two holidays, reading the bible to them at bed time, telling them the ten commandments, etc etc...basic Christian family values, and practices. Most of which is to build a strong moral foundation, like "don't push your sister in the mud and break her dolls...<quote a parable>"

Are we denying them a proper, wholesome existence, by showing them these things? If so...why?

Can you not raise someone as a critically thinking and intelligent child...while offering them the benefits of a religious culture? Do you have to raise your child in a pure, secular, and spiritually bereft household, in order to be a good parent? Am I abusing my future daughters, when I give her advice like this: "God made you in his image, and thus...you should treasure your body, and wait for marriage. And besides, you might get pregnant, and it is better to have a husband care for you and the child, instead of being a single mother trying to go to school, raise a child, and go to work, at the same time. Or you might contract a disease, that would hurt you."

Why do you call it indoctrination, and brainwashing...and are Agnostics the only ones who are intelligent, and unbiased enough to think freely? Is it indoctrination to teach them secular beliefs?

 

[PurplePoot]

Why do you call it indoctrination, and brainwashing...and are Agnostics the only ones who are intelligent, and unbiased enough to think freely? Is it indoctrination to teach them secular beliefs?

I never said that. Not once.

--

As for the rest of your post, I think it can be summed up by informing you that you don't need to be Christian to have morals.

 

[brad.dude03]

I agree with Poot here. I know many deeply devout Christians that possess critical thinking, and even some such as Thomas Aquinas, who used it to justify their belief in the church.

And yes, morals may be associated with religion, but I think everyone, religious or not, follows their own brand of moral compass.

 

[Abe97]

In my own belief since i don't believe in nothing more than my self/my soul
i would say morals go after feelings!
How wrong a person even think killing is, in any grade i believe that persons morals will go totally on the persons feelings if for example the persons child get killed by a person, the parrent will follow the feeling and the morals goes after that resulting in a kill on the killer hih ( felt right! Got to be )
while maybe others say, killin' is wrong anyway you should taken him to prison and make him suffer while this person probablly would done the samething if it was that persons child!

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

If you don't tell your children about other religions is that wrong? Your saying that telling your kids about Christianity or any other one religion for that matter is wrong... Or are you actually saying that not telling them about all other alternatives is bad? If that's the way you think then LOL

 

[Elenai]

PurplePoot:

There's a difference between raising a kid and indoctrinating them

I was asking about this ^

As for the rest of your post, I think it can be summed up by informing you that you don't need to be Christian to have morals.

Wasn't my point...

 

[Megafyr]

Wow.. Shouldn't there be a ''discuss your belief forum'' here on hive? : O

 

[brad.dude03]

No, because every time people congregate to discuss their beliefs others seem to take personal offense and it turns into a flame/spam/troll fest that nobody wants to deal with.

 

[Smiddle]

For the individual itself, nothing happens. Death is the end of the numerous chemical chain reactions we know as 'life'. For everyone else, everything that used to happen before the death of the individual will in the same way happen after the tragedy (or in some more rare cases comedy).

 

[Silverfish423]

i think we will have an afterlife and will be with God. But it will be different that wat the Church and so on say it is, because Jesus never described heaven in detail. We will find out when we reach the end of the tunnel

 

[PurplePoot]

I was asking about this ^

Raising them to believe your faith is true and not to question it.

Wasn't my point...

Then what was your point? The main line I saw in your post was "we should teach them to be good Christians or they'll go, get pregnant when they are teens, and then enter some sort of moral hell" or something.

 

[Elenai]

Then what was your point? The main line I saw in your post was "we should teach them to be good Christians or they'll go, get pregnant when they are teens, and then enter some sort of moral hell" or something.

My point was: "Why should we not be allowed to teach spiritually on matters that are important, why should we only teach with secular tools, if we teach with spiritual tools, are we being bad parents? If so, why? Is someone who teaches with only secular tools a bad parent? Are they good parents? If so, why?"

 

[Gilles]

There's a difference between raising a kid and indoctrinating them. There are more than just extremes, you know.

Besides, raising them to be a critical thinker is parenting.

You siad most Christians are brainwashed, so I take what you say to apply to a majority of Christians. So would you say a majority of Christians don't teach their kids "critical thinking"? What about atheists? Do more atheists teach their kids "critical thinking"?

I'm just trying to prove that Christianity is not about "brainwashing".

I would wait until 10 or 12 when I trust them to not just be doing whatever other people tell them. At which point, if it is their choice to be catholic, well, it's their decision, not mine.

I would go older before allowing them to break away from the Church. One rule I've always liked is, "you live in my house, you go to Church".

As well, there were times in my life I didn't want to go to Church. My parents "forced" me. Looking back, I needed that push.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I totally remember that the last time this thread happened, it turned into a Religion v Atheism fight, or close to.

What happens after death is FSM and IPU have an epic fight lasting many millenia, yet lasting only an instant, across seventeen planes of alternate existence for control of your soul. Upon the conclusion of said epic fight, you are returned to Its/Her saucy/HAWT goodness, for purposes unknown. This is true because I say so, and I probably have Shados or someone else of comparable awesomeness to vouch for me.

P.S: Evangelists shouldn't count as actual Christians because they're stark raving crazy. Same goes for some crazy atheists about atheism. Just because something can have a lethal dosage doesn't mean that all dosage sizes are lethal. Take Tylenol for an example. But don't actually physically take it, that could be lethal.

 

[PurplePoot]

I would go older before allowing them to break away from the Church. One rule I've always liked is, "you live in my house, you go to Church".

As well, there were times in my life I didn't want to go to Church. My parents "forced" me. Looking back, I needed that push.

Indoctrination in action. "God's way or the highway"

 

[Gilles]

Indoctrination in action. "God's way or the highway"

What exactly does that mean? You kick your kids out if they don't believe in God?

 

[PurplePoot]

What exactly does that mean? You kick your kids out if they don't believe in God?

Yes, that's indoctrination.

 

[NinjasDontFight]

What exactly does that mean? You kick your kids out if they don't believe in God?

I thought they locked them up



If my mommy and dadda made me. I suppose another mamma and dadda will make me once I die.

Unless some of you are opposed agaisnt the fact that my parents made me.

 

[Gilles]

Yes, that's indoctrination.

Do you have evidence that a significant amount of Christians do this?
I don't believe the Church indoctrinates anyone, unless you think forcing kids into schools is indoctrination.

 

[The_Silent]

Fredom kinda lost its meaning in indoctrination...

 

[BlackHobo]

What do you think?

Some people think we reborn, but how does it then work with the newborns? (There's more people now than 2000 years ago).

Or are we sent up to whatever god you believe in? And spend all our time in that paradise.. Must be kind of boring after a while?

Or are everything going to be completely black, and we can't think?



And no, I aint gonna try it out to see, cause then I can't post it here.

well technically nothing happens.. you just stop... and it wont matter cause you wont be able to think.

at least nothing we know of yet, maybe one day science will be able to figure it out.

but since matter cant be created or destroyed, you dont exactly die, your not "gone" your just not alive. hope that makes you feel any better lol.

 

[Hakeem]

Wow.. Shouldn't there be a ''discuss your belief forum'' here on hive? : O

We totally need that as a sub-forum of Medivh's Tower.

Death is the end of the numerous chemical chain reactions we know as 'life'.

But that isn't the end is it? Most organisms have children. "Lifeless" as your corpse is, there are lifeforms that will recycle it.

 

[The_Silent]

But that isn't the end is it? Most organisms have children. "Lifeless" as your corpse is, there are lifeforms that will recycle it.

Your ''will'' may die with you, but that will cause a lot of both chemical and biological reactions, your death may give life to thousands of others oganisms.

Visa versa you die, but your body decompose and survives as part of other oganisms.

 

[Need_O2]

dunno (said before ?)

 

[PurplePoot]

Do you have evidence that a significant amount of Christians do this?
I don't believe the Church indoctrinates anyone, unless you think forcing kids into schools is indoctrination.

Well, I have evidence that you plan to do it based on your past statements. I also have evidence your parents did the same to you.

That's what I was referring to.

 

[Gausslander]

Hakeem; I already brought up that point. Come up with a new discussion, will ya?