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WARCRAFT III: REFORGED PATCH NOTES

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by Mythic, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. Sparky123

    Sparky123

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    Reforged76 is still worse than fallout76, even with the power armor scandal and 10 times the detail.

    Doubtful. Bobby boy is loaded.. most obvious scenario is deadlines and shareholders. And the lack of interest to make a good game.

    Damage is done.. yes they are starting to make a miserable comeback now, but by the time they are done...

    Do you know the maps people play on reforged? Every TD imaginable and DOTA. DOTA IS STILL MOST PLAYED MAP ON REFORGED.
    Atleast that's a huge middle finger to Blizzard. I'm sure they are collecting data about games played, and I'm sure someone
    somewhere is very miserable for seeing fucking dota being played for the billionth time. That thought makes me happy-er.

    Reforged is still fucked. That EULA will bury this game into more dota than they ever had on their hands.

    The workaround is a joke. You have to delete your maps and set the fps to a very specific number...
    otherwise you risk 90% desync if the RNG gods don't align the moons in your favor.
     
  2. Jouven

    Jouven

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    That's what I thought too when I saw people mentioning that workaround, "you can't get desyncs if you can't host your map because you deleted them" like that meme
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  3. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    Does Bobby Kotick have a lot of money? Yes, but he doesn't invest any of it into anything Activision-Blizzard does, because all company projects are funded through company money, not private contributions by any of its employees. Thus, "Bobby being loaded" doesn't mean anything.

    Moving on, does Activision-Blizzard as a company have a lot of money? Yes. Could they have afforded hiring more devs for Reforged or allowing the team to work on it for a significantly longer time? Probably, yeah. But both of these points are utterly irrelevant, because no company is going to throw money on a project just because they can, that's not how business works. Any business will allocate a certain budget to a project, size of which depends mainly on the expected return on investment.

    If that budget gets crossed then the company won't just keep increasing it indefinetely, not because they don't have enough money to do so, but because from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense as eventually they'd have to pay more for that project that what they expect to earn.

    Have you ever asked yourself why deadlines are a thing? I'll tell you - it's because of budget limitations. As meme-y as it might sound, time is money. The longer the devs work on a project, the longer you have to pay them for doing so, ergo the longer a project takes to complete, the more it costs.
     
  4. Venombite

    Venombite

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    At this point, I only hope that they'll re-add Custom Campaign feature, that would work both in HD and SD, and release a few bug fixing/performance optimization patches after implementing this feature.
    That's not much, I guess.

    Does anyone have any thoughts how realistic my hopes are?
    Realistic?
    Realistic, but at this pace it'll take a few years?
    Completely unrealistic?

    As I said earlier, I "fear" that the patch from two weeks ago was the last patch and that they'll never mention this game again. It would kinda make sense from money making point of view.
    If that's truly the case (we'll see in the coming months I guess), what's the best former version to install potentially?
    1.26 for Blizzard content and old custom maps?
    1.30.4 for Custom Campaigns and new custom maps?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  5. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    it's too early to say the game is forgotten
    for big companies it may take awhile until every manager signs that, because nobody want to take responsibility for the failure
    so it will suffer for quite some time, no worries
     
  6. ShadowArm

    ShadowArm

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    The eye color that blizzard chose for nelves is utterly stupid
    It should be silver, green pearl, white or ice blue

    but all of them are black
     
  7. Sparky123

    Sparky123

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    single-player experiences are up this alley.
    Especially big titles like lets say, Lara Croft, have millions of budgets.
    And they take a long time to make, and their budgets get extended.
    Kickstarters are a great example of money being thrown on games just because you can.
    In hopes that it makes the game even better. Sadly in most cases, this isn't the case.

    Polish pays. Extreme polish pays even more.
    Only when you deliver on said promises or don't over-promise.
    Because that's what tends to happen when lots of money are involved.

    Not for a game that had pre-orders, a solid fanbase, an active modding community,
    and the backing of a triple AAA hybrid corporation with mostly live service games.
    In addition to the mobile market blizzard cares so much about. Especially in china.

    Deadlines are marketing and management problem of not being able to keep their
    fucking mouth shut, over promising, over analyzing and treating said customers
    like we are beavis and butthead. Don't you guys have phones? Really?

    Its like every spiderman movie has to have a god damn game attached to it.
    Talk about another thing that gets thrown lots of money at and only has deadlines
    because of the movie release. Pointless and lots of bad games come out of it.

    That's what happened here. They should of googled searched miyamoto's advice:

    [​IMG]

    Give or take one or two years, it should be relatively good then. StarCraft 2 also had a rocky travel, but it didn't fall in the septic tank like reforged did.

    Realistic, but it must take a few years, if they keep the pace up and patch it up.
    The community playing it atm is so small, but I'm sure everyone will know when
    Blizztard adds new features. I mean, they were supposed to be there, but you know
    today's Early Access culture, release a broken mess, patch it and fix it later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  8. Razorclaw_X

    Razorclaw_X

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    "Don't you guys have phones" was spoken by a DEVELOPER-- you know, one of those people you're trying to avoid blaming.
     
  9. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    Yes, big projects that are expected to sell well can have big budgets or get delayed (i.e. have their budget increased to pay for more dev time), but this doesn't mean that some other projects, especially small ones that aren't likely to make a lot of money (i.e. Reforged) can't simply run out of budget and the company might not see a point in increasing it - which is my original point that you're trying to argue against.

    I'm going to pretend that you didn't just base your argument on equating fans giving their private funds to a project and corporate finances.

    That's not really true - yes, releasing a good game will make it sell more copies, but it will also increase the cost of making that game. There's a very fine line here. There are some cases where it's more beneficial to invest in higher quality, because the increased sales will more than compensate the costs, but there are also ones where it's just not worth it financially to do so. Thus your argument that "polish pays" isn't always true.

    In fact, your opinion is a bit idealistic - just look at how some mobile gatcha games are a lot more profitable than even the best games that are beloved by core gamers.

    There's so much wrong with what you're saying that it's going to take a moment to unpack.

    Preorders... Blizzard is not some small indie studio that needs to rely on preorder money to afford funding their projects. They have enough disposable money to fund their projects, but they want to make as much profit as possible and keeping the production budget in check is an important part of that, especially if we're talking about a small project that isn't expected to sell a lot of copies and doesn't have an exploitable monetization.

    Also...

    It might be a foreign concept to you, but there's something called "market research". It's a thing that companies do when deciding on whether they want to start a project and what budget they need to allocate to it. The idea is they take a number of factors into account and they try to guess how many people will buy the product. That's why I'm constantly referring to expected sales numbers.

    Anywho, you're talking about a solid fanbase... Do you have the numbers for that? Obviously you don't. Meanwhile Blizzard does. They didn't just know how many people played the old Warcraft 3, but also how many people even owned it. On top of that, they have all sorts of data on their other games that they can use to extrapolate how many of the people who play their other games might be interested in Reforged. And they probably have some data on games from other companies. Why do I bring this up? Well, because all of that data is definetely something that they considered in their market research.

    Another thing that they definetely considered was the active modding community and custom games - yes, it's a big selling point for a game like W3, but it's not like it's some mystery that Blizzard somehow didn't know about. And guess what, unlike you and me, they had the hard data on that front - they knew how many people played custom games now and in the past. That data obviously went into their market research as well.

    So yes, what you're saying is technically true - they did consider the "solid fanbase" and "active modding scene", but... Such consideration happened before they started working on Reforged (i.e. allocated the original budget), because that's when market research is done, not when they were deciding on whether or not to cut features or extend the deadline (i.e. increase the budget). If anything, the latter was more influenced with how much their preorder numbers lined up with the original predictions.

    I see you've completely missed my previous point - it doesn't matter that they have profitable live service or mobile games. That's completely irrelevant. They're not fans looking to spend their money on an interesting kickstarter just because they can, but a corporation that tries to make good investments, becuse that is what all businesses in the world try to do. That's just how they work.

    And seriously... Do you even know what an investment is? I don't want to be rude, but at this point I'm starting to doubt it, so let me tell you - an investment is spending money on something in hopes that in time you're going to make more money than you initially spent. For example, if you buy a house for 1,000,000 euro and you hope to sell it after 10 years for 1,500,000 euro then that's an investment. The difference between these two values, i.e. the amount you put in and the one you're expecting to get, is called "return on investment" (ROI) and the whole idea of investing is trying to invest your money that have the highest ROI that you can get.

    So imagine you're INVESTING in that house I've talked about above - would you go to the owner of that house and say: "I know you only want 1,000,000 euro for your house, but I make a lot of money from my other investments, so I can give you 1,250,000"? Unless you're crazy and/or terrible at investing, there's no way you'd do that, because a) it decreases your ROI and b) it decreases the amount of cash that you could potentially invest into something else.

    Thus your whole argument that Blizzard has live service and mobile games that make them a lot of money and so they can spend that money on something else is just... well, dumb, to be perfectly honest. Companies don't seek to spend money, they seek to invest it - and smart investing has rules.

    P.S. And no, I'm not saying that it's unreasonable to increase the budget for a project - there are cases where it is financially justified, but then there are also cases where it's not or even ones where it's straight up better to just scrap the whole project instead of throwing more money at it to fix it. But I'm not going to explain that - if you finally understood my point, you'll be able to figure it out.

    Nope. There are two options here:

    - the company purposefully over-promises, i.e. lies in their marketing, in which case it has nothing to do with deadlines, because these promises inherently aren't planned to be kept, ergo no time/money needs to be set aside for them, so they can't impact any deadlines;

    - the company makes promises that it believes it can keep, but in hindsight it turns out that it wasn't and thus the company's actions are interpreted as over-promising and under-delivering - in this case it's obviously related to deadline issues; that said, it's isn't their cause, but effect.

    In regards to the latter option - the cause of the deadline existing is the budget being limited. The way it works isn't that, like you say, developers promised more than they are capable of doing and so they had to be given a deadline - they most likely were able to come through on all promises, but it would take them more time than initially expected to do so. And as I've already explained in one of my previous posts (in short - dev time costs money), the budget dictates how long the devs can work on things, so the deadline is set to make sure the devs cannot go over that time limit and by extension the budget. The result is that the devs don't have the time to do everything that was promised, so in hindsight it turns out that the company over-promised and under-delivered.

    As for management problems... well, yes - it can be argued that if Reforged was managed better then perhaps they would be able to squeeze in a couple more things or release the game in a better shape. That's true - but... the same can be said about pretty much any team project.

    You know, if you're using someone's quote to further your point, you should at least respect him enough to write his name with a capital letter. Just sayin.

    As for the quote itself - I don't see how it's relevant to anything that I've said, so I'm just going to skip it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  10. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    was sc2 a remaster of sc1 with next to nothing new content? did it happen at 2012 when there still were some RTS players or 2020 where fortnite only matters? dont compare things which arent comparable
     
  11. Venombite

    Venombite

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    Guys, as sad as I am to say this, you can't really compare Reforged to any other Blizzard game.

    All of their other games have one thing in common. Even those games that are dead now (*cough*HotS*cough*) and even those that recevied some criticism from dedicated fans(*cough*Diablo III*cough*), all of them have one thing in common, that Reforged doesn't.

    At release they were all mega successful in pretty much every way, and polished beyond belief. As people would say "crème de la crème" of gaming, games that the other companies envied. (Yes, I know BfA was buggy on release, but still it had lots of new content (that mostly sucked, but that's another story), and it's a two year lasting expansion, not a remaster of an 18 year old game)

    Well, Reforged is not. It has the flattering title of being the first .......let's just say "average" (though imo far beyond average) Blizzard game. The one that Blizzard didn't cared about basically at all to begin with, and just wanted some extra cash. Well actually I'm glad that they're plan with the game backfired, and all they got from it was some, however small, negative PR.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  12. tulee

    tulee

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    Almost finished Reforged campaign, only have 3 complaints, otherwise I have really enjoyed playing through the Wc3 story again.

    1) Some cutscenes need characters to be spaced apart more, due to model size. This was particularly relevant in some of the human ROC missions, especially 02 (blackrock) where the new models had such big weapons that the uther and arthas almost seemed like their hammers were touching the other person's body.

    2) For Orc 03 (ROC), it is now possible on hard difficulty to defeat every human base at the same time as Grom's initial attacks, which takes away from the story a bit, since they are not supposed to be killed in each initial Grom attack.

    3) The lever model needs to have something like the original's blue hue on the top part, since in the missions with Arthas and Anub'arack underground in FT, it is almost impossible to see the lever model against the grey terrain. New players could easily be unable to pass those missions, as if you are not a returning player who knows exactly what you are looking for, those levers might as well be invisible.

    I think if the main issues with Reforged are fixed swiftly (not referring to he ones I listed), then all these new private servers catering to "classic" Warcraft 3 that are popping up will be stopped in their tracks, but if they gain momentum from core Reforged issues not being fixed, then the community will start to splinter more.

    I also really wish that the servers can be removed so that people in custom games (and melee) can join games of other people, since this 3-way divide between US/EU/Asia is having a fragmenting effect.
     
  13. Drake53

    Drake53

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    That quote is fake, it should say "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad."
     
  14. Sparky123

    Sparky123

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    Right. Its often developers that "present" marketing and management ploys
    as their own and take the hit.

    Are you saying developers are the bad guys here?
    The ones that did most of the work. which weren't even from Blizzard.
    Its their fault? Or the ones that did integrate this abomination into the battle net.
    Are those to blame?


    I was basing my argument on your argument that games aren't just handed money like you say they are not.
    In a corporate structure, okay, sure.

    What about crowd-funding sites then? Lets see how many companies don't crowd-fund their work.

    Because its easier to bake a clone of something and stick micro-transactions in it. In today's world, don't you guys have phones?

    Its another to actually invest time into designing a game first, not designing a your micro-transactions first.

    Thanks mom.

    I guess so.

    What do numbers of people who bought the game have to do with the game having solid fanbase?
    First of all, do you know how many people torrented warcraft3? Obviously you don't.
    And neither does Blizztard. They only know who they sold it to. Not who gave it to who after that.

    And people who pirate games, guess what - they extend the life cycle of said game.
    All great games are pirated. And this game... has been pirated for as long as I can remember.

    But by your logic, those aren't fans. Only customers are fans, and blizztard knows everything.

    Right. Because warcraft is a "small" project. Wait for the eventual "lootbox patch", as you might expect from AAA.

    Nothing is certain. So okay, it doesn't always mean success.

    If sc1 and sc2 aren't comparable, what is?
    And I compared the issues that I remember sc2 had at one point
    similar to issues with reforged, both in custom games and campaigns.

    +rep.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Sadly the devs of classic's team are incompetent so yes they are the core of the problem.
     
  16. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    Do you see big companies do crowdfunding for their projects? No, you don't. If Blizzard or EA or any other established developer/publisher launched a kickstarter then they would be ridiculed to hell and back. Crowdfunding is there for small, indie studios that don't have the cash flow to fund their projects.

    So what does this tell us? That if you want to make money, you don't go for polish - you go for a product that's cheap to make and easily monetizable. That pays.

    Uhm... everything?

    And you think they're going to buy the game now, even though they didn't buy it for for 15+ years and with a significantly lower price tag? Don't make me laugh.
    And if they don't want to buy the game, why should the company even care about them? If you had a shop, would you care what people who steal your stuff have to say about your products? Come on.

    Care to explain how?

    Honestly - no, they aren't fans. Before Reforged came out, Warcraft 3 has been out for 15+ years and as an old game it has been heavily discounted. That's enough time and opportunity to purchase a legal copy. If you haven't done it then bar some specific fringe cases - no, you're not a fan.

    I see we're doing sarcrasm instead of actual arguments now? Awesome. I'm going to take it as you conceding your point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  17. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    How are you still managing to bring up new arguments?
    Or has it turned into an endless cycle
     
  18. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    I'm just responding to what he says, he just responds to what I say - isn't it how discussions work? :p
     
  19. Drake53

    Drake53

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    So PlatinumGames is a small indie studio now? The Wonderful 101: Remastered

    For the same reason free-to-play games need non-paying customers. Also word of mouth.

    Fan (person) - Wikipedia
     
  20. MasterBlaster

    MasterBlaster

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    It's not Blizzard/EA/Activision big, but okay - I stand corrected, sometimes there is an exception.

    Which is?

    Perhaps they are "fans", but due to the fact that they are stealing the thing they claim to be "fans" of, I'd say that the term "thieves" is more adequate the term "fans".

    ---

    Ultimately - what you call these people is irrelevant. The idea of business is to make things to sell them, in one way or another. And if you're selling your product, the people who matter to you are the ones that are potentially going to buy it, not the ones that are going to steal it. It's ridiculous to expect that a gaming company will give one of their games a bigger budget, because "that way more people will pirate it".
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020