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Warcraft 3 Reforged

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by Archian, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Anaxie

    Anaxie

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    Couldnt say it better myself.
     
  2. Lord_Earthfire

    Lord_Earthfire

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    What you describe there is pretty much the SC2 Arcade summed up. And i honestly believe that they could tty to learn from past mistakes. Although then again, they "immortalised" themself by giving nothing on mistakes of other companies.
     
  3. Iliya

    Iliya

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    I don't see how this is even remotely related to what i quoted. I was saying popular map makers out source away their popular maps so they can get rewarded for their efforts as we saw with Dota 2.

    Also I'm gonna reply tho not related to what I said, This developer mindset that Oh I'm gonna just update my game 1 year later from now they just go play other games and comeback is proven false. When players leave a hardcore game they are far less likely to comeback. It usually involves them re-learning the entire game and most just prefer not to. Also not to mention when you have a bug ruining entire game they are far less likely to even keep playing. In Netease the top maps are patched weekly.

    There is also bunch more support modders need. Right now you go to hosted game of Azeorth Wars for example, You have a first timer again a guy with 1000 games. Which then turns the game to trash for both. First and foremost we need like a level system that match makes players based on their experience. Secondly we need like tournaments and ranked ladder like you mentioned. Netease already has both for custom maps and they don't have to deal with Bots trash.

    Also each map needs to have it's own section with it's own lobbies like Netease to know if it's the right map made by the author you wanted. Searching through a bunch of hosted lobbies does not make any sense and makes maps with cheat codes placed more common. There also needs to map details and reviews on the client, I don't have the search damn net every time I want to know about a new map and its patches. Then maps can be categorized by genre and freshness for example. Making search easier.

    Edit: 3500 players on a Peak Day is Dead. Specially the majority of them playing Melee. So no it's not false revelation, I'm just stating the number. Even now the numbers haven't changed really.

    One thing I forgot to mention, Reforged will competing with Age of Empires 4 next year which is far more popular, Making Warcraft chance even lower to attract new players.
     
  4. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    You're exaggerating again. Of course bug fixes are a priority. I was referring to new content like new heroes for the DotA map... But you really like playing a game of contradictions.
    .... you're giving marketing lessons to Blizzard's experts? What's you experience on anything, really? You wrote you don't map. I am quite sure you don't know much about economics as well.
    I understand you have a concern and opinion, but throwing it at us like it's the right faith to follow, is absurd.
     
  5. Iliya

    Iliya

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    Usually it takes hours upon hours of work for a hardcore map to be bug free and have no balance issues before worrying about lack of content. majority of custom maps are no where near balanced or bug free.

    well my degree is commerce and I'm not giving advice to Blizzard, just stating the facts. This move by Blizzard means They are not really interested in attracting new players really hence why there is Remaster not Warcraft 4. Also the 30 Euro paywall as well. All of this indicates that They are just fine with just getting the old players to re-purchase and possibly some WoW players, Blizzard will be fine with it financially, no need to attract a new market segment.

    This however tho is not good for us in the long run, If only people who will play reforged are players who played Warcraft 3 and few WoW lore nerds who didn't, that is relative low and busy player base which is not good for longevity of the game but who cares if you charge 30 Euro just for a graphical update? right haha. Not saying it's necessary will turn out like that but right now Blizz hasn't done much to attract new players to this game.

    Also how and why did you change the conversation to here lol? I'll mentioned was Bliz Warcraft 3 client needs to have to some of Netease's Warcraft 3 client if they are to have large and growing player-base like them.
     
  6. disruptive_

    disruptive_

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    What major problem you saw with that system, and what you suggest? That could be legitimate feedback, should Blizzard is actually pushing a more value extracting politic regarding WC3 mod scene, which i think is reasonable to expect.
     
  7. The10th-X

    The10th-X

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    Couple more things
    -Remove caps on things like Attack speed, MS#
    -Allow the disabling of turn rate to make units turn instantly, or allow much higher turn rates
     
  8. Triceron

    Triceron

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    1. You cant predict gamer tendencies when it comes to custom maps. The lack of consistency can make any game super popular or not played at all, no matter the quality level. Ive been a part of war3, dawn of war and SC2 modding and mapping communities and seen many cheap maps overshadow huge TCs just because player trends shift all the time.

    2. Popularity of the game itself is incomparable to the era that war3 came out. High quality F2P ganes did not exist back then to compete with the map scene. Mapping WAS the F2P alternative to buying new games. There is no guarantee WC3R will retain high population over the long run or that the map community will reclaim its former glory. RTS is generally a dying genre, MOBA and Battle Royale is the current new trend. Custom maps will always be a passion driven niche. Even Valve has stopped making games and simply sits on the success of Steam and DotA2.

    3. Icefrog was headhunted by Valve. Your example is wrong because ice frog did not go to Valve to get DotA made, Valve went to Icefrog to get DotA 2 made. The company hired a modder just like Blizzard hired modders now to help remake War3. Icefrog would have continued dota map support if not for the opportunity.

    4. Money solves nothing. DotA2 has a market for assets that you can sell. Great for those who put in the work, right?! Wrong. The faxt that monetization happens means it draws professionals into a hobby narket and to keep things organized by quality, assets are user ranked. This makes the pros boost to the top, and any casual making things out of passion or fun float to the bottom. The system revolces around creators advertising their content to boost popularityvin order to get monetized. This similar phenomenon happened for a few SC2 maps that became very ambitious, such as Starcraft Universe, which I worked on. I dont see it as a good thing because as a map maker hobbyist, you cant compete against professionals and it would flood the market with more supply than demand.

    You cant just pick and choose which mappers to moneize and which dont get support. That defeats the goal you intended, to support mappers hard work. Even crappy maps have effort poured into it, and its unrealistic to compensate everyone equally. Monetizing popular maps only sows jealousy and frustration for the rest of talented but unsung mappers out there. Patreon is imo the best alternative.

    Turning mapping into a business (one that is dependant on a huge custom map playing fanbase, mind you) is not sustainable. There was a planned marketplace for SC2 which I looked forward to. Im happy they didnt go that direction.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  9. disruptive_

    disruptive_

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    Nice post.

    1. Of course you can. The thing is, quality is not the only parameter and i agree with you. Also authors have different styles, some do stuff for the people, some are passionate about something specific, like anime based maps, some have a tendency to do whatever they like at the moment with a dose of their peculiar quality standarts, etc. Authors with a tendency to be people pleasers or that have some kind of "empathy" with/in respect of the "needs" of others will naturally make popular maps. Some authros don't give a straw on popularity, but achieve some marginal popularity with quality, innovation, or even constant hard work and tuning. It is chaotic indeed, but you can observe trends, otherwise am i schizophrenic? Maybe.

    2/3. At this time you can see that lots of ventures start with a natural passion, but then either the author or other people (if the author is too reluctant but talented, is not rare that there will start appearing imitators) will crystallize such emotions and passions with something tangible. The author will decide to get serious or not with his/her drives and if those drives will be the basis for his/her own material sustenance and spiritual realization. Or atleast will decide the extent of that.
    Youtube started, majorly, as a random page where people will just upload their vivencies, basically a part of "themselves" (favorite music, random sketches, iconic gameplays, etc), but right now it is colonized with more professional, serious, business like and value extracting pages, ie. CollegeHumor, Music channels, Gaming channels. You could say that these people saw the popularity (either at the start or along the way of uploading their content) of their content, divised a potential gain, and opted to become professionals about that an to pursue such gain. Professionality often will relate with dedication, appeal to the masses and massivity (read: continious content/product that is standarized), and tangible gains (read: money, reputation, rankings, numbers, etc). I mean, i'm not judging anything, i'm just saying that it is reasonable to the point of obviousness that something is going to happen, something serious. Blizzard is a company, a professional entity, so their actions will (and i'm pretty sure, based on my loose definition or elucidation of professionality that they are indeed professionals) directly or implicitly pursue tangible results, bottom line, and large scale deployment of resources. Blizzard was never shy on exploiting the WC3 mod scene at any stage (they patronized Dota tournaments, they use quality mods as advertisement). It also seems that they are now a little bit less shy about it, judging by the current case of Starcraft II.

    Also what made Dota what is today? Was it the popularity of the concept back then? The originality (it was based on the map the gave name to the genre if i recall correctly)? Was it the dedication and pushy "go-getter" qualities of the author or even some other behind the scenes people (LIKE ie. a sponsoring dude that make a deal with IceFrog to organize this or that event)? A combination of all that? Another thing? Is Dota special ontologically? Was IceFrog lucky? What tells you that what happened to Dota could not happen to another map or venture in general?

    4. Money is just an average standarized way to measure value. Sometimes even power or influence, but here it's even a below average standart. Here i agree with you from a different point of view.
    In the end people/companies will decide if they are recieving the value they are expecting for their actions, be either money, reputation, the favour of like minded people, etc. From a company like Blizzard, what we can deduct they are expecting to recieve as value for their actions? Money? Good feedback from their fans (they resented dearly the Diablo Immortal case, even "emotionally", as they were caught manipulating the likes and dislikes of the trailer)? About the good feedback i think most companies care about the community in general as a concept, and not about the opinion of one or two game experts/ultra dedicated and devouted fans/ the "guild/council" of ultra passionate modders, so here i differ.
    I don't know if introducing paid modding is per se something that threatening. Even if it is a hobby, you will, by definition, devout time and effort, which is work, which is value one way or another. Call it a new principle of thermodynamics if you will: work is value, and good work is good value. But again, you decide if that value reported is enough or not. If not, you can either move or push yourself to get it. In your examples i think i get you are kind lying yourself a bit. If you care about like minded people to like your work, then the hobby map maker (in the sense you are using the concept) should be authentically satisfied by getting those important and personal likes. If you care about that and money, or about beign somebody with some kind of expertise, then why not pushing something more risky, devouting more resources, time, etc. If you are ie. already working as a lawyer, then you must evaluate your opportunity costs, or simply decide what (or how, if you want to pursue lots of endeavours) you want to do.
    But i think that introducing paid mods as it stands is a lazy way to monetize, and thus unsustainable in the long run just like you said.
    Why? because Blizzard wants a share (on which they might, pressumably, try to assert themselves as the protagonists) but their operation will reduce to: see the party, say go gets to drink and who not, and then fucking dissapear. In a mod scene like this, sustained by sites like this, the protagonists are the authors and the people that work to get some kind of content rolling, like this site itself. The proof of that bold comment, is, again, this site and many others, that have survived almost entirely, by indeed the protagonists. Me of course. So let them be Blizzard. Come on.
    Should they introduce actual work and promotion to the scene (which they are kind of doing right now, i'm happy, look at this emoticon of happiness: :cool:2), which simply traduces on CONTENT, then their share will be justified, a balance of all elements and interveners is achieved, and the system becomes sustainable for atleast some period, and i can now sleep after 3 days.
     
  10. RED BARON

    RED BARON

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    Yea, lets first compare two world areas that cannot be compared (different availability of games, hardware and income just to mention a few), then ask why top map makers left? Should I point out that quite a few didn't? That some moved to SC2? That people grow older? That some was headhunted due to their work? I mean you appear to believe that modding is a job, not a hobby. I've been modding Warcraft since the Warcraft 2 Battlenet Edition, and I have never felt the need to get paid for a single thing. Is that because I am filthy rich? No! I do it because I love helping people, I love being creative and even more seeing my stuff being played and enjoyed by others. Heck, I have even donated money to keep sites that allow us to post our mods on them. If anything modding has cost me money, but then again it hasn't.

    My love for modding has lead me to my current work, it has shaped my life in many ways (given that is has been almost 19 years). I've found friends, colleagues and innumerable hours of fun. Could I get paid for my work? Yes, I mean part of my RL work involves doing things similar to modding - But then the demands go up. Creating a quick model, icon or whatever just to test an idea or have fun would be impossible.

    Did DotA keep Wc3 alive? Well no.. It still lives and are now even getting an update. Did it help keep the amount of online players up? Yes. Did Icefrog quit modding for Wc3 due to money issues? No, Hell no. Wc3 made his career!

    While I would love to get paid for creating games, models and whatnot this already has a title: Its called being a Game developer.

    Do you know why the "good maps" are coming to steam? Well, in a lot of cases it is because the teens who were making those maps grew up and got a job working with what they loved. I mean just look at how people from this community was hired by Blizzard. Oh and online numbers really doesn't show anything. Vampire Bloodlines is still getting patches to this day - A singleplayer game, but a great one.
    Also you should look up outsourcing.. I don't believe you are aware of what that actually entails.

    Wc3 - Reforged will be able to last for years to come, assuming Blizzard manages to make a good transition and most importantly a great map editor. Those "old" people who grew up playing Warcraft: Orcs & Humans might very well show their kids and thus a new cycle can begin.

    Monetization, advertisement, lootboxes and all those other "must make extra money" tactics will never keep a game alive. Love for the game and enjoyment of it will. Believing that monetization is required for a game to exist and thrive is a falsehood that I cannot fathom some people believe.

    This is a qoute from the Diablo Immortal Discussion about Netease:
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  11. Rui

    Rui

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    Haven't been sufficiently in touch with the gaming scene to put up consistent feedback on the subject of monetization. From my experience, though, departing from simple purchase-once models in favor of things like monthly fees is exactly why I have never played WoW. I never intended to buy cosmetics either, though I'm way more receptive to that idea than monthly fees.

    Let me just add:
    Sometimes they don't shift fast enough. I remember @vile's Age of Myths (AoS map) was so much more balanced, fun and feature-rich than DotA, but it never caught up. It introduced "assists", "player shuffling", and "team rebalancing" before DotA and hosting bots even knew those were concepts. It was way ahead of its time, but went severely underappreciated. (I guess this was precisely your point, though.)


    Now @Sansui has returned too. Reforged could even turn out to be November fools, I'd still thank Blizzard for bringing back all these people *.*
     
  12. RED BARON

    RED BARON

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    Yea, I recall playing it and being amazed with how much better and improved it was over DotA, but once a ball gets rolling it is tough to stop. Perhaps we will see something similar next year :grin:
     
  13. asteriana

    asteriana

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    no reason to be this negative. they said they want to give the resources to the people that kept World Editor and warcraft 3 alive , give them a bloody chance.
     
  14. Kacpa2

    Kacpa2

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    I know, sorry for that. I was still quite angry at the time. They said that they will release the tools to work on the models, but as it was done in the past it may be just an art tools set for 3ds max version they are using right now. However there is a chance they do far more and give us stuff to menage mdx, m2 and m3 files and to easily convert them without breaking to several types of software like Blender and not just 3ds max. And if they do then well, we will see even more models done, so it's win win. I still dont really like the artstyle and never will, it's totally unnessesary and revisionitic in nature but then we can just use custom models in our maps to replace all these.... I am starting working on my remasters of originals now.
     
  15. Tauer

    Tauer

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    Or you can just switch to the old art style with the option that Blizzard has already confirmed will be there. It's literally one click of a button. None of the custom assets here will be redundant, because that option will always be there. Blizzard is not forcing anybody to use the new art style.
     
  16. Augustus

    Augustus

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  17. The10th-X

    The10th-X

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    i don't really see a problem with that, if they just give us the originals in better quality that would be great since they already look good imo
     
  18. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Yeah, but it would be wrong to release the game with the RoC intro remade and the rest only slightly enhanced.
     
  19. RED BARON

    RED BARON

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    Considering how I never played Wc3 for the cinematics, I am not really bothered by this. Even more so considering how most of the cut-scenes are ingame and thus will be updated.
     
  20. Dr. Benevolent Guy

    Dr. Benevolent Guy

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    Now I am starting to questioning myself if Reforge is worth buying or not. I don't want to be disappointed again just like in Diablo Immortal at Blizzcon. :cry::cry::cry::cry:
    This is how pride destroys all things beautiful. :cry::cry:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018