The State of Things

[Steel_Stallion]

The entire moderation team is a group of individuals with varying opinions.

Varying opinions, but they should all in the end agree upon something. Or else theres a problem.

It would do more harm than good. I just personally ignore it, excepting as a comment system.

Well then your a smart and rightfully respected person. Regretfully not everyone is like you Poot.

As I said, removing it would just cause trouble, and then said people would just find another way to discriminate.

If you cannot agree upon removing it, you have to fix it. Make reputation much harder to collect and hard to lose.

Find something good to kick my ass with. Come on, I've given you plenty to work with! Stop squandering the gift!

The intention of that was far from troll bait.

I really hope that someone has a good and valid argument to kick my ass with. If one can't even ask for valid criticism of themselves for fear of trolls, then how are any of us to improve?

See here EF possibly without noticing, you are intimidating people and splurting out sarcastic humour at a completly bad time.


I say stop letting the staff decide who they want to be staff. Like what the hell? Make public elections and let us, the majority of the site decide.

 

[PurplePoot]

I purpose that we appoint an Administrator to solely take care of staff positions.

That's Archian.

If you cannot agree upon removing it, you have to fix it. Make reputation much harder to collect and hard to lose.

It's still the same situation, just a way for people to discriminate against others who aren't in their 'cool group'. If it becomes inconvenient, they'll move on to another method.

I say stop letting the staff decide who they want to be staff. Like what the hell? Make public elections and let us, the majority of the site decide.

Oh god, no. You were complaining about the problems with popularity contests yourself.

Sites which do that tend to go to hell in a handcart. Why? Because popularity often has very little, or an inverse relationship, to aptitude for moderation. Nobody likes a hardass, but they're often what you need.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Oh god, no. You were complaining about the problems with popularity contests yourself.

Sites which do that tend to go to hell in a handcart. Why? Because popularity often has very little, or an inverse relationship, to aptitude for moderation. Nobody likes a hardass, but they're often what you need.

You've got a point. I see what you mean now. But if what your saying is correct than no one likes the mods, but they are what we need.

And obviously if they are not being productive they are what we DONT need.

Surely we can come to an understanding and let the normal users and Staff both have a solution they can all agree on. When ever we try to do that, people start flaming each other and pointing fingers. Ala whats happening now.

 

[Gilles]

That's Archian.

Oh... shit. Well we need a new one to be honest. He never really did a good job imo. I've never seen him appoint anyone in the time I've been here. As well, how is he supposed to know who to trust when he's not around. Also, he isn't even active.

 

[PurplePoot]

Oh... shit. Well we need a new one to be honest. He never really did a good job imo. I've never seen him appoint anyone in the time I've been here. As well, how is he supposed to know who to trust when he's not around. Also, he isn't even active.

He is indeed rather inactive, but to my knowledge he reviews every staff appointment, and deals with a lot of internal problems.

At least, he used to (Seeing as I haven't been appointed recently (for obvious reasons ), I wouldn't know).

You've got a point. I see what you mean now. But if what your saying is correct than no one likes the mods, but they are what we need.

And obviously if they are not being productive they are what we DONT need.

Surely we can come to an understanding and let the normal users and Staff both have a solution they can all agree on. When ever we try to do that, people start flaming each other and pointing fingers. Ala whats happening now.

Indeed. However, as I was saying, public elections are not by any means the solution of the staff's problems, and in fact would probably cause more.

It's fine for the moderators if they're disliked, as long as it's for the wrong reasons (for example, a lot of people dislike Mecheon, but he's great). Being liked is a good thing, however, as long as it doesn't hinder productivity. However the two don't really have a connection in terms of appointment in the first place. Trust and respect are almost always earned, and should be.

 

[Gilles]

He is indeed rather inactive, but to my knowledge he reviews every staff appointment, and deals with a lot of internal problems.

At least, he used to (Seeing as I haven't been appointed recently (for obvious reasons ), I wouldn't know).

Which is good, but someone who appoints staff should be involved with the forums. I think we can kill two birds with one stone.

A) More active admins: Obviously if we appoint an Admin that is active in the forums, and doesn't really do any "behind the scenes", we take care of that.

B) Better Moderators: This would also help to fix this problem. I still say the lack of activity from admins is the reason behind poor appointing. If we have an active admin to do this, we should be able to clean up our staff.

 

[PurplePoot]

What's the point of Admins doing stuff directly visible on the forums, other than Ralle (who is, after all, changing the site layout)?

Admins are for doing server-end and back-end work. The Public Relations/General Moderation staff are the Global Moderators.

At least, that's the impression I've always gotten.

 

[Ash]

We don't have any 'user-relations' moderators, be it global mods, admins or normal mods.

 

[PurplePoot]

However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't.

This is assuming the system stays the current way, which I'd honestly rather it didn't anyways.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

We don't have any 'user-relations' moderators, be it global mods, admins or normal mods.

And there never will be, a "User-relations" mod would never work.

You cannot have a peasant stand and answer to a king the same way he would answer to his neighboor.

There will always be some sort of fear, envy and jealousy. No matter how faint, between users and moderators. Alot of users will understand what i mean.


The answer here is trust, something this site clearly lacks as they accuse each other without remorse.

 

[Ash]

I think, when things boil down to it, we're missing leadership.

Users look up to the mods for guidance who, in turn, look up to..... Noone.

We don't have a structured form of leadership, we don't have User-relations and we don't have enough people doing what they should be doing in order to fix this.

 

[Elenai]

Before I begin I would like to apologize to the HIVE for any of my past bastardesque behaviour...I have been going through a tough emotional time lately, and I have been a bit on the brink of insanity.

I also apologize for anything that may be said in the following posts, that may be deemed "inappropriate"

I would also like for everyone to engage in "forgive and forget" so that we as a community can be rid of past grudges, and continue on in renewal.

Thank you.

My Opinion

Users like Ash, and frosty suggest that the admins should be more visible, and should be more active in the day to day activity of the average users.

This is true, the admins could be more active in the populace. But, it is also not the job of the admins to come down from the judges seat, and live amongst us. They are arbiters, and auditors of the site.

However, in the defence of the administration. The Admins have spoken with me on countless occasions and on a variety of subjects. I have even given many of them nicknames for the Epic.

Lon, Ghandalf, The HIVE Father (wolverabid), they have all been apart of my various chat roleplays and are a major part of my HIVE lore. They are active with the community, you simply have to make strides to put out your hand and talk first. But you have to catch them when they are not so busy, is the secret.

Ash, has suggested that staff should be elected. I disagree. Promotion is based on service to the HIVE, and should not be based on any form of popularity, politication, or electorial process.

I have to get this off my chest...

The infamous Jury of Awesome started out as a simple and well meaning social group, or Captain Griffen's friends. They were harmless, and barely noticed in the beginning like a good flower in the garden of the various groups that make up the HIVE's societal structure. The JOA had great potential to do much good for the site, and to give the site some much needed stimulation.

However, the JOA has failed to live up to these expectations, and have since then become a rogue social group, who have taken on the same philosophies as the cyber criminal group "Anonymous".

The JOA have become vigalantes who undermine the authority of the offical HIVE staff, and their actions as "enforcers" has destabalized the HIVE.

The JOA have also become highly elitistic, and if you are against them, or protest their actions in anyway, you are subject to the full and unmerciful wrath of their members.

The JOA, constantly trot the lines of the rules, and bend them to whatever whim they wish at the time. They break the rules for "the lulz" and they "enforce" the rules according to their agenda, however they see fit, often by breaking the rules themselves.

The JOA has become a fallen group. And while the problems they are causing as a group themselves is visible enough, the group's influence on the other users, who want to "fit in" to this new "fad" as Pyritie has dubbed it, is more troubling than any of the actions the group has taken.

I myself, have been under fire from the members of this group, and the many who seek to follow them.

I have, or was on the verge of losing many of my long time friends here, because I "attacked" the Jury of Awesome, and have therefore attacked the members.

What I did, was not attack anyone, or any social group. I attacked their actions and stood for order and stability according to the rule of HIVE law, common decency, and civilized society.

Frostwhisper, Instant Ramen, and most notoriously Ash, have all grown to despise me, or have ostrocized me, because of my protests against the JOA's methods of fun having, rule interpretation, and renegade elitism. Frostwhisper's new found disdain for me, has greatly disturbed my stability here.

Not only have I been ostracized many times by the HIVE community for various things, ranging from my faith, to my very name...But I am also under fire, because of my solid support for the staff, and for "ass-lickery" which is nothing more than me being a friend to the admins, and a supporter of their decisions for order.

If you are not with them, you are against them.

The JOA is a community splitting social group, and though they may deny it, and I will most likely face their wrath, lose my friends, and be branded a leper. They cannot deny, that their actions were the final hammer blow, that struck the wedge in splitting the community apart in unmerciful mod war.

The split of the community is best seen in the primary tool of the JOA, an off-site controversial wiki, that has since then, been the source of massive uproar amongst the HIVE.

I will accept the JOA, but only when they take their proper place amongst the HIVE order, and stop their less than favourable actions.

It is my opinion, that social groups need to be inspected, and approved before they are allowed to run free. This way, social groups that split the community, cannot be made, and only positive communities will be allowed to flourish.

I strongly disagree with this. You may cite that he has done excellent work in the moderation department, and that he is a good moderator. And this is of course true, on a purely professional level.

However, Ash does not make a good candidate for any future promotion at this time, because Ash likes to skirt the rules, and his actions promote chaos instead of order.

He makes decisions based purely on how they will give him a lulz, and he himself has admitted that he does not take his job seriously.

Anyone who is to be promoted must be a voice for order, take his job seriously, and most importantly respect the position of power that he has been given, and be a good example for the HIVE to follow and to look up too.

Ash is none of these. Ash as I have seen him so far, is almost a bully.

I will not support Ash as admin in any fashion or form. I will oppose it until he shapes up, and becomes respectable.

I have to get this off my chest....

The HIVEchan in the beginning was a good idea, and at first was harmless and usefull, much like the JOA.

However as time went by the HIVEchan grew more and more perilous. The articles became less and less funny, and more and more hurtful.

What the JOA call's satire, was far from satire, it was libel, and cyber bullying.

It was during this time, that I came across Iristle's page, and I was appauled, disgusted, and the anger that had been building over time burst and this was the final note in the litany of problems I was beginning to have with the site.

It is no secret that Iristle and I, had at one point an intimate relationship that has since then...been silenced but not forgotten.

And it is from this relationship that I have, that I have grown to hold Iristle in such a high regard, that no-one on this site, or even I suspect, in the world aside from her family, can even dare to approach in equal. And I long ago swore to protect her in anyway I could, even if I must do so from afar. This fell under that jurisdiction.

The filth that was littered on Iristle's page, all in the name of a cheap lulz, a blatant assault on her character, calling her a whore, making her out to be a cheap slut, saying that she is so filled with cum that it leaks out of her eyeballs....it was simply atrocious, and I expected FAR better from the site, and the users who posted there.

And not only was this blatant act of cyber bullying focused on one person, but it was sure to spread and grow, and inevitably infect the HIVE.

In the name of order, and just plain common decency I had to act.

I edited her page, I added positive points, and removed as much of the foul content about someone I cared deeply about as I possibly could...I was banned for doing so, "killing the lulz" and the filth about Iristle was placed back on the site.

The HIVEchan had become a place where if you didn't bully each other, then you were not welcome. If you couldn't attack someone on the HIVE, you could destroy them on the Chan.

After the ban I spoke with Ash on numerous occasions, I demanded that he remove the content. Ash toned it down...but hardly by a fraction, and in defiance of my wishes, kept the comment about Iristle being filled with semen.

He and his compatriots refused to cooperate, he refused to be a decent human being, he disrespected the HIVE, he disrespected iristle, he disrespected his position, and he disrespected me.

This would not be allowed. I stand for order, decency, and civilized behaviour. And so when Pyritie took it to the mod lobby, I made my case, and was attacked for it.

These are sites that split the community, and these are sites that are simply appauling. And I do not want to see another one like it created. I do not want to see my friends turn against me and assault me because I made a stand for those who could not. I do not want to see this kind of thing infect the HIVE, which is what will happen if this sort of behaviour continues.

HIVEchan had funny articles, and great potential. But it crossed the line, and refused to correct it..

Never again...never again.

There must be a policy that keeps negative user politics outside the site from leaking in.

We cannot stop malicious sites, and we cannot stop them from being barbaric towards other users if they so choose. But we can keep our HIVE safe, and our users protected.

Users have been promoted too quickly to their positions, this is true. But this can be fixed over time, by demoting those who fail to live up to their duties. And we can then learn from this, and take better care in promotions for the future.

Frostwhisper has suggested that users who are heavily active recieve a grunt icon, and perhaps special powers. I disagree.

We do not need mini-mods for the chat, we do not need soldiers for the forums. There are rules already in place for this.

If you see a problem, report it, ding it, or warn the user yourself in a civilized manner.

You are to keep order in the HIVE with what you are given. If you are a normal user, you are to follow the process of authority. You are not entitled to take matters into your own hands, you are not entitled to make judgements based on your own interpretation of the rules...that is the job of the mods, and the admins.

You should not recieve special priveledges to be enforcers, you are citizens...you are not soldiers.

You are asking for less dictation, and less corruption. But you also suggest putting easily warpable power into your hands? This is not the way government works. And the HIVE is a microcosm of a government.

However, frostwhisper's suggestion has merit. Users who have more experience should be given more attentive ears, and their help is valuble.

-Promotions are given to people based on service to the HIVE, and experience in a specific field, and in their conduct. Not popularity contests.-

This is all I have for now on these subjects. And these are my opinion on such matters

WILLTHEALMIGHTY and I, yesterday evening (my time) had a conversation with WILLTHEALMIGHTY on what the root of the problems we have been facing in the HIVE where, and how we might be able to provide part of a solution to help bring the community together and

"Revive the HIVE"

This is the presentation I have presented to WILLTHEALMIGHTY, and Ralle in PM form. It is not perfected, but it is a solution none the less. And might help our situation for the better by killing some of the power that is held by these roots.

Award System, and replacement of the inefficient Reputation system

Admins of the HIVE.

I come before you today to propose a new and more efficient award system that would be beneficial if implemented into service within the HIVE society's structure.

WILLTHEALMIGHTY and I, have created an idea for a new award system, that will replace the current inefficient reputation system.

It has come to light, that in recent months, there has been a destabalization of the HIVE structure, and the cause of this destabalization is at its root;

"Elitism, Jealousy, and Greed,"

It is a combination of these three factors, that has lead to a serious destruction of the HIVE's order of peace and stability. With the creation of user groups like "The Jury of Awesome", and users have now begun to clamour and worship these users who have essentially, "fallen from grace".

This worshiping of Moderators, and respected users, in order to "fit in", and the attitude of elitism that these higher users are displaying has become destructive and chaotic, as seen in the Mod Lobby "War Threads".

The actions of users, who are clamouring to these users in an effort to gain their favour, is rooted in a need to feel better than everyone else, jealousy of those who are "the in crowd" and rep or power greediness. And the moderators and respected users who are further encouraging these actions are falling under the category of an elitist nobility who are thriving on unwarranted ego stroking.

In order to help "Revive the HIVE" new programs must replace the old and inefficient ones that are now causing Elitism for the haves, Jealousy for the have-nots, and Greed for both parties.

This has caused much of the mod-war, user aggression, and worst of all, the attitude of the elitist nobility who are flexing their power however they whim. Most notably, on places outside of our control, like the HIVEchan.

This new system is but one way, that we can make a leap forward in solving the problem of the unstable HIVE.

This is only part of the solution, but it should help, as well as bring a much more positive atmosphere to the HIVE.

Firstly, the rep system must be removed for all users, and every user allowed to start anew.

By removing the rep system, you severly cripple a major source of the three roots, and you also force users into a state of closer equality towards each other, also effectively removing much of the eliteism caused by having rep, and power.

Instead of a rep system, the award system should be expanded as I will detail now.

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Award Categories:

Badges: These are miniature rewards that will replace the current rep system.

Badges will essentially turn the entire site, into an RPG, where you complete certain criteria "quests" that consist of completeing quality work, or service to the HIVE, and as payment shall recieve a miniature reward from the admins.

These awards will be miniature artpieces with a message attached, like the rep gem, that is placed in the user's profile in a "trophy case" and can be seen by other HIVE users.

These awards will be given for quests completed, such as "modeling and uploading several approved resources", "Jass Language Expert", "Modeling Expert", "Tutorial Creation Expert", ect.

Basically, awards that reward quality productivity in the different aspects of HIVE life and modding. They are like scout badges recognizing productivity with real palpable rewards that actually have meaning.

These will be given by admins to avoid "moderator worship" and also given only by official approval, so that the awards actually have meaning, and actually show who is productive in what, and the quality of their work.

For Example: General Frank: would recieve many of these awards that show his status as a great moderator, modeler, and leader in the HIVE.


Using badges instead of rep, will also kill rep whoring, rep for poor work, and rep parties. And the jealousy, greed, and eliteism that comes with it. Because these badges will be earned, and officially given by admins for work well done in the field.


Next category.


Gifts: These will replace rep given by users.

These awards are given by normal users for services completed by other users who have helped them in their various projects, or for friendliness and good behaviour in the HIVE society.

These awards will be given as gifts and placed within the Trophy case, as gifts, or tribute, to be seen by all the users, and to show who is actually the most helpful to users, in what areas.

In order to give a gift award, a user will ask an admin to give the gift to a user, and will state a reason why. If the admin approves, the gift will be placed in the trophy case.

These gifts can be given for work such as: "Helped me with my campaign", "fulfilled a request", "Helped me in a debate", "Supported me in a time of need"

These are essentially gifts to users, that is much more personal and therefore, more thoughtful.


Next category.


Arena Awards: These are the arena awards given by completeing an arena contest, and being the victor in righteous modding battle.

The award system for this category, has already been implemented.


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Punishments for users who fall from grace, or break the rules, will come in the form of award removal as the admins see fit.

Users that do not have awards, and break the rules, should not receive a cool looking "red gem"

because...really...that just encourages them

As red is a cool colour, and the red gems look really cool.

They should instead simply recieve PM warnings, and infractions leading to bans if they persist.

Or perhaps, timeout bans, which are temporary bans from the HIVE, or loss in certain privileges that are provided to users.

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Other positives:

Aside from ridding the HIVE of a destabilizing element, creating equality, and assuring that awards are earned and not flung about like candy. This new system will also open up opportunities for other aspects of the HIVE to flourish.

Creating award icons, and art pieces used for gifts will flourish, and more opportunities for art creation will be open. With users able to specifically request a special icon be made so that they, or the admins, might award these gems of artistry to deserving users.

Making Trophies will create another market for expression in the HIVE, and will create a more positive, and decorative atmosphere, as well as creating a new niche for HIVE users to express their talents.

The gift awards will draw the users closer together in a tighter community.

They will bring mods and users together, and they will bring the users closer together, and motivate each other to help each other.

And when these gifts are given with personal emotions of thankfullness, and grace behind them, they will have more meaning than a rep gem ever did.

The gift of art, is a gift of love afterall.

And also, just think of all the cool awards that could be made and given! So much more decorative and epic, than mere rep gems, and with meaning behind them! What a great idea! and the RPG like atmosphere will delve this gaming community further into the thing which birthed it...a fun game. ^_^

And since these are gifts, and earned awards, the rep jealousy will disappear! Because having a personal award given by another user to another user, or earning a badge of honor from an admin creates nothing but pride and feelings of accomplishment that are POSITIVE! While just having a bar of rep does nothing but make you feel like you have a bigger "e-penis" than another user, which spawns jealousy, greed, and elitism.

Even the lowest of users, when given a special award from an admin or given a gift by a user for good work will make that user feel accomplished and more likley to be even more productive. And the prospect of getting even nicer looking awards of all sorts of different styles and designs as provided by artists will bring excitement and joy to the HIVE! And the users will not be so inclined to the decadence that comes with just having a bar of gems.

And when a lowly user receives rep, he is often ECSTATIC with joy! Imagine the motivation to work harder when he gets a sweet looking award!

And the older users like myself, would probably find the aspect of earning artistic gifts to put in our respectable trophy cases exciting, fun, and refreshing.

All in all, having an award system will remove much of the negative disdain that has permeated a now stagnant HIVE, while also providing a stimulus to the HIVE to grow more in more artistic directions, while also motivate the users to "regain" their awarded status' while showing other users positive productivity, and giving a much needed boost to the HIVE's now stagnant feel.

"This is a Triumph, I'm making a note here, Huge success! Revive the HIVE!"

Giving these awards, will not be a lie. Let them have cake. And let them eat it too ^_^

Thank you for your time and patience.

-Elenai Lefein, and WILLTHEALMIGHTY-

More opinions and proposals to come, as issues are presented by the other users.

Thank you for reading and listening.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Users look up to the mods for guidance who, in turn, look up to..... Noone.

We don't have a structured form of leadership, we don't have User-relations and we don't have enough people doing what they should be doing in order to fix this.

So basicly, you blame the administrators.

Everyones passing on the blame, Users to the Mods... Mods to the Admins...

 

[PurplePoot]

Warcraft III Campaigns director system ftw?

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Please note Elenai, that they JOA in the end is just a group and nothing more. They can do nothing but argue, and you can just ignore them if you wish. Because they do not have any moderating powers. (Right?)

And Haha, frostwhisper. I see part of what elenai is saying, in that this group is letting it get to their heads. Remember that you're just a bunch of people who would argue against anything they believe is wrong. And believe what they believe is wrong is wrong because they believe it.

Which doesnt make it so anyway. Dont let it get to your head?

 

[PurplePoot]

A few of them do.

Either way, he's not necessarily talking about moderation. He's talking about troublemaking.

Oh, and thanks, frosty.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Well they cant really be causing trouble that cant be avoided if they have no power can they?

I'm not sure but, i cant be put down by someone who goes like "STFU YOUR WRONG *Dismantals my entire post sentance by sentance and attempts to dis-prove each one*

Now Gtfo"

So what? You can dis-mantal my post and blabber on thinking you are right. When you probebly arent. I can easily just ignore him and get on with the discussion. He cant "Delete" my post.

 

[Gilles]

However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't.

This is assuming the system stays the current way, which I'd honestly rather it didn't anyways.

Isn't this party what we are discussing? How to improve the site, and one of the things that has come up, is the staff. We need to change something in our staff, and this is one idea.

 

[PurplePoot]

As I've said, I personally prefer the Warcraft III Campaigns Director System.

Here's how it goes (with the wc3c positions inserted for reference):

• There's a webmaster (Tim.) who owns the site and does some general overseeing.
• There's the technical director (Vexorian) who does all the script work and such (Samuraid is our equivalent).
• Each section (Development,Art,Hosted Projects,Content (ie Resources)) has a director who deals with staff appointments and forum policies/changes in their section.

 

[Captain Griffen]

I love the way he blames everything on the Jury, and then makes a suggestion drafted with WILL (a jurist). Obviously Shados, SentryIII, Xarwin, MindWorX, Archian, PitzerMike, Sansui, UchihaSasuke.gr, etc., are all in on a secret plot to tear apart THW.

Or not. The Jury is a collection of individuals; any connection to subversive activity is purely incidental. And for the record, probably our greatest scorn is those trying to fit in with the Jury; they just can't do it right, and are obvious pretenders. Particularly if they do it by being dicks.

Putting the Jury on the level of Anonymous is lulz worthy, but not particularly intelligent and entirely incorrect.

 

[brad.dude03]

PEOPLE.

What the hell is this? I ask for you to convene here and to share your thoughts about what you would like changed in a calm and rational manner. From what I've seen here, the majority of this thread has been attack and defense, back and forth. PLEASE, for all our sakes, let's keep this civil.

About the Jury: Elenai, you seem to have a personal problem with the Jury. You accuse them of affiliating with or adopting the ways of 'Anonymous'. For chrissakes, we're PEOPLE. We are NOT Anonymous, nor are we trying to emulate them! What about this can't you understand?

About Hivechan: Ralle has already stated that he does not care. Isn't that enough for you? Furthermore, Captain Griffen will tell you himself, the Jury and Hivechan are not affiliated in any way. Overlap in userbase is entirely coinsidental.

About Archian: As far as I am aware, the last promotions that Archian made were those of Chriz. Camel's_Hump, and Daelin make at the end of 2006/Start of 2007. That's it. He is far too inactive and has no knowledge of the user base, thus, making promotions should not be his fortay, if you ask me.

Remember, the better and more logically you articulate your arguement, the more chance there will be of Ralle taking it into consideration when making changes.

Carry on.

 

[Eleandor]

As I said, removing it would just cause trouble, and then said people would just find another way to discriminate.

I strongly disagree. I have been at fora without such a system where nobody, literally nobody even asked for a rep system. I can only see this lead to jealousy, and there's absolutely no reason to think removing it will cause trouble.

At EF: It's nothing personal, but I've never liked you because of the way you post. It feels too aggressive and you're being ironic at bad occasions. I feel like you're bitching most of the time. As a sidenote to that: I think you're a good moderator. I just don't like you (which is probably the cause why other people don't want you either, rather than you being a so called bad moderator)

Until today I haven't actually heard of this "jury" yet. Apart from the fact that they seem to behave like elitists (which I don't like either way), what exactly have their actions been in the past?

I'm actually convinced that a major part of the problems could be fixed by simplifying everything.
1) Don't make subrules for subrules of rules because you need separate rules for this and that.
2) The fora are WAY too big. I have to scroll down half a minute before I get at the bottom of it. If the arena isn't being used, purge it. technically, WEHZ IMPLIES triggers/scripts, so since there are thread tags (like [SOLVED]), why not use them to distinguish triggers from other we problems
Artist section: why not merge models and textures? Sound/music isn't used enough to really deserve a separate forum IMO so it might be better to have a forum for showcases (sounds, textures, models, terrains) and a forum for WIPs / help / whatever else is at the artist section.
Jass functions: since all other resources have their own section, why do jassresources need to be a forum?
Gamer's hub: currently the hive is only about warcraft 3, so I don't see the need for diablo/sc2 forums. At least you could make them a subforum in "Blizzard games" or something...
Tutorials: IMO they should be in subforums.
3) Reputation system? What's it useful for other than making certain people jealous and others judgemental?
4) User created groups? I hadn't even noticed them, but seriously. The problem with them is just the same as with the reputation system. It gives people a chance to differentiate them from others and act as elitists. I mean, seriously? "People who aren't morons"?? "RALLE IS A LIE"?? "THE HIVE NEEDS MORE COWBELL!"?? If you really want a group like "Jury of awesomeness", go make your own forums, right?

I feel like the more (useless) "features" added to this site to make the place feel more comfortable to people, the more this place becomes a mess and people feel less comfortable. I'd rather see a clean site. Stop giving people tools to make them feel "better" or "different" than someone else. If you want to have privacy or any form of "separation" from the "masses", get the hell out of my internet. Ofcourse I'm not talking about scripts that "read" map info from a .w3x file, I'm talking about all those fancy add-ons like reputation system, user groups, whatever.

What the hell is this? I ask for you to convene here and to share your thoughts about what you would like changed in a calm and rational manner. From what I've seen here, the majority of this thread has been attack and defense, back and forth. PLEASE, for all our sakes, let's keep this civil.

To be honest, I'm quite surprised it's still *this* civilised.

 

[Gausslander]

In my honest opinion, the best thing to do would be to just wipe the entire slate again and start out anew. You're going to need constant moderation of this thread to keep it working. And it surprises me that there's so much trolling and flaming, attacking and defending, even though most of the people posting in this thread are in fact moderators themselves. -.-

 

[Ash]

A note on Hivechan; I'm not going to be professional about this, as Elenai has already stated -- incorrectly at that -- 'I don't take things seriously'. More on that later.

Hivechan; TL;DR fuck you. It's an external site, you've got no governing powers over it. No matter what you say, I'm not changing it. kthxbai.

Now then; although users said that I'd make a good admin, I don't want to be one. Judging by the ones we already have, and some other staff members, I'd turn into some serious business jerkoff who does nothing that dishes out bans from time to time. That isn't why I signed up to be a mod.

He said that 'I don't take things seriously', now then. Let me look at this somewhat deeper...

I have not broken any rules, and your attempt to get me into trouble is just another way you are trying to silence me.

You have failed to uphold the duties of keeping order within the HIVE, reviewing is only one of the jobs a mod has, we are here to keep order, and to help the higher ups maintain that order.

You have failed to do so, and your resignation would be prudent unless you shape up, and start being a respectable moderator. This is the final word on the subject.

And, naturally, my response.

You're pathetic.

You moderate a website, it's hardly like you're the CEO of a multi-million pound industry, come on.

Internet, serious business.

And this is the truth, something which still stands.

Just to re illiterate; hivechan isn't just ran by the terrorist- No, wrong word... Social group, the JOA. There are lots of members there and, quite frankly, I don't care what you say about it.

Nothing said on this site is going to make me change the website, nor does ralle care about it either.

Drop your god-damned religious zeal, bottom line.

 

[Gilles]

Can we just leave out this whole chan thing? Most of us don't care, so just take it to PMs please. It's the main blight on this thread.

 

[PurplePoot]

Eleandor, merging the WEHZ and Triggers & Scripts would be hellish.

Merging the T&S sub forums was already a bit of a change, but merging them into a forum where multiple pages of threads go by daily would not exactly help.

---

People, quit with the flaming. This is really getting out of hand.

 

[Gausslander]

Agreed. I think we should delete all of the posts here and start again with a strictly moderated thread.

 

[LiOneSS]

This is all ridiculous... some people were bored and thought to make their own group. Now let the people live... go make your own group and invite people you want into... and stop bitching here
and El: the award system would be causing jelaousy too like: OMG I GOTZ MORE AWARDZ THAN u111
the gift system would be nice though :3 like facebook xD

 

[Eleandor]

Maybe it's a bit too extreme to really "merge" them. I'm still very convinced that having like
World Editor Help Zone
-- Triggers / Scripts
-- Miscellaneous

would help. Same goes for tutorials, artist section, etc.

and El: the award system would be causing jelaousy too like: OMG I GOTZ MORE AWARDZ THAN u111

Assuming this is aimed at me and not at Elenai (damn names): the award system (assuming you're talking about map contests, etc.) are highly moderated, i.e. those awards are RARE and only given away to people who participated and won. It's almost comparable to special user titles such as "Moderator" or "Respected user". They aren't given away to people who don't deserve it.
I haven't really seen anyone claim to be "better" than someone else because of an award, unlike with the rep system and the user group system.

 

[link598]

The best option to make the hive a better place is to take this rule to the xtream. If you know what i mean.

Community Friendliness
The Hive is a friendly community: all users are expected to treat one another with dignity and respect.

 

[Arvedui]

well, this thread certainly has gone south.

Here are my opinions (not that anyone cares, which is part of the problem):

1.) Personally, I had no idea what the jury of awesomeness was before this thread, but looking at it, it is (as stated before by it's members) an elitist group.
2.) It just so happens that those people tend to flame more than anyone else, because a.) they believe they are better than us "peons" b.) because they know they can get away with it.

Not saying that they're terrible people or that I don't like some of them, but just saying that those people are the ones that tend to ignite flame wars more often than other users.

3.) That brings us to another point. The complete and utter lack of consistency within the staff. I'm talking about Forum moderators mostly. All of the moderators do their jobs, and do them well, or well enough, but when it comes to someone they're friends with they tend to overlook any wrong-doing, or just doll out warning after warning, OR just ignore those threads completely. Yet, when it comes to normal users wrong doings they, rightly, punish them. It could be that I just don't see it, but from what I have seen it's not that. People who constantly flame other users because they can and happen to have a lot of rep, are not ever punished. I'm not talking about -rep. Rep is bullshit, and thus -rep is too. Ban repeat offenders for several days. Actually teach them lessons, not just -repping them.

4.) The reputation system is flawed. Does it really matter though? Honestly the only people who really care about rep are the ones who have none. I can attest to this because 4-5 months ago I had none, and more than anything wanted rep. I see now that it's completely retarded and does not get you anywhere. I use rep now as a way of commenting on a post, rather than actually posting, a lot of times.

5.) The user base is made of up 14 year old pricks who think that they know everything about life. That's not anyone's fault, it's just the nature of the site because of the nature of wc3. The other users who aren't such assholes need to learn to deal with them and not flame them at every chance they get. Even if the 14 yr old prick flamed first.

6.) First and foremost this site is about wc3. I think some users forget they're at a site for wc3 and that we're all geeks in some way. You cannot, then, say someone else is more of a geek for you because they like something that you deem is geeky or stupid.

7.) So back on point to the thread. The way to improve the site is to make the moderators and admins actually active in the forums. The only place I really see that is in Off-topic and Triggers and Scripts. Every now and then one of the moderators, such as Rui, helps out in WEHZ. As such, a lot of users have been forced to start "mini-modding" because of the complete lack of admin/moderator involvement. Has any moderator (besides BlinkBoy) actually looked at the Request forum recently? It's a complete mess. Sure part of the problem in Requests is that the people who post don't read the stickies, but the people who post to tell them that, need to be more polite. Those people tend to not read the sticky that asks users to be nice. The other part of the problem with the Request forum is that no Moderators actually look there. They have forsaken it.

That's my spiel. Pick it apart as you will, I don't really care.

 

[Ash]

So, I just had a rant at the chat and got banned for a day. I'm sorry for blowing my top, it's not on. However, the levels of faggotry and shit have gone through the roof lately, and are continuing to rise at such a rate.

It certainly doesn't help that we have a thread aimed at making the hive better, that has users that actively contribute good ideas in, that is repeatedly shot down by the staff members.

On that note, I'd also like to add that the staff members aren't in charge of the hive. We run it for ralle, who runs it for the people. The reason it isn't in the mod lobby is because it's FOR the people to contribute to.

Finally, if you guys cared even a small bit for the hive, then you'd drop your petty little arguments and petty little ideals that you know certainly wont come true.

 

[LiOneSS]

anyone read 'animal farm' by george orwell? well you should, because you would learn that those who want to overthrow tirany would become tyrans in the end.

 

[frostwhisper]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Don't look to the external sites or user groups for the problem. It's not their fault that some people have personal issues with them. Look among the Hive's ranks.

 

[Gilles]

So, I just had a rant at the chat and got banned for a day. I'm sorry for blowing my top, it's not on. However, the levels of faggotry and shit have gone through the roof lately, and are continuing to rise at such a rate.

It certainly doesn't help that we have a thread aimed at making the hive better, that has users that actively contribute good ideas in, that is repeatedly shot down by the staff members.

On that note, I'd also like to add that the staff members aren't in charge of the hive. We run it for ralle, who runs it for the people. The reason it isn't in the mod lobby is because it's FOR the people to contribute to.

Finally, if you guys cared even a small bit for the hive, then you'd drop your petty little arguments and petty little ideals that you know certainly wont come true.

Who are you referring to? I don't like how the staff are grouped into one category. I don't want this to turn into a flame fest, but please don't generalize.

As well, if someone has beef with you, wait until after this is done to deal with it. Take it like a man (or woman).

I think we need to stamp down a few main problems. What are the biggest issues with the site? Things like Earth-Fury are honestly not all that important. I think we've established that something with Admin needs change. Yes?

 

[Ash]

Who are you referring to? I don't like how the staff are grouped into one category. I don't want this to turn into a flame fest, but please don't generalize.

As well, if someone has beef with you, wait until after this is done to deal with it. Take it like a man (or woman).

It IS the whole staff, though.

With regards to mods coming and disrupting the thread, certainly EF has done his fair share.

Rui had done a bit, too, but he has deleted his posts now.

The main fact is that this is something aimed at improving the site -- that was one of the best WC3 moderation sites around -- but we've let this fill up with flaming and fail too.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Suggested reshuffle of staff positions (note that the ideas behind it are more important than the actual people - three simple tiers, each mod reporting to a single director):

Pastebin - The Hive Workshop - Warcraft 3 Maps, Icons, Spells, Tools, Tutorials, Skins, Models, Campaigns, Scenarios

 

[Gausslander]

Here's an idea, we could completely remove the forum and chat and just remove visitor messages. Then we'd only have pms and resource sections. That way there'd be no more need for forum moderators, no more jury, and no more unnecessary bans. I rest my case.

 

[Gilles]

Suggested reshuffle of staff positions (note that the ideas behind it are more important than the actual people - three simple tiers, each mod reporting to a single director):

Pastebin - The Hive Workshop - Warcraft 3 Maps, Icons, Spells, Tools, Tutorials, Skins, Models, Campaigns, Scenarios

This is what I've been asking for for a while now. This is honestly the best thing to come out so far.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

It IS the whole staff, though.

With regards to mods coming and disrupting the thread, certainly EF has done his fair share.

Rui had done a bit, too, but he has deleted his posts now.

The main fact is that this is something aimed at improving the site -- that was one of the best WC3 moderation sites around -- but we've let this fill up with flaming and fail too.

It is still the best Wc3 moderation site around. Its just failing a bit, by trying to solve the problem we've made it worse by sparking hate. Before we start improving the forum we need to stop hating on each other or we wont get any work done.

On a side note Ash, I am fairly sure Rui is a She

 

[brad.dude03]

I've cleaned out this thread. Try and keep things calm and rational, instead of angry and bitter. Thanks.

 

[Elenai]

I think we should target and fix the problems bit by bit.

We need a list of the problems so that we can go through in order and eliminate the sludge.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Its just a horribly dis-organized and unproductive staff and system. Which they are working together on fixing.

 

[Elenai]

We still need a list, as there are more problems that have rooted into the HIVE.

From an unstable HIVE government, all the way down to the silly rep system where problems often start.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Long Post is Long

This thread gives me so much to get off my chest, I feel like I've been attacked by an alien face-hugger in my sleep.

...yeah.

HEY! You!
Yeah you. Don't think I didn't see you trying to scroll past my post. You scroll right back to the top and read it the whole way through.

You caught me, asshole.

See, its either a HUGE coincedence that the rules are enforced so harshly on people with lower rep, or its true that Rep infact has power. What ever a moderator says otherwise is false. If any of you Moderators tell me you do not look down on users because they have less reputation You are fucking bullshitting me.

Because it IS infact true, you DO judge people by the amount of reputation they have/dont have.

Reputation matters like flies on shit. Mods give lighter sentences on people who have reputation because these people tend to be veteran users. And veteran users tend to be well-known for their contributions to this site. That being said, I'm certain that I've suffered punishments a lot more often than Hakeem.

I am so fucking sick of seeing the little people of this site get pushed around, because other people are getting respected for Rep Parties and saying stupid things and having more friends on this site than anyone else.

And here marks your fall from grace. Let me make this clear: Spam rep doesn't last. Well-behaved users do. You see, it's utterly impossible to get a purple gem if all your reps are meaningless. It just doesn't happen. Before that even happens, you will find people raising an eyebrow at you. Even TheDivineBoss does the little things he does to contribute to this site, and when TDB does something, that says a lot about our society.

1. Samuraid: He's the ONLY one who really deserves this position. Why? Because he is the only one capable of helping on the technical part.
I reported a bug with Reparse, and the next day, it was fixed. Could any other administrator do this? No.
2. Archian: Inactivity WARNING, yes, but he's capable of leading the site, he has the right character to do so. Pity he's inactive.
3. Bob27: He knows well what he can do as an administrator, he knows when to ask for Ralle's opinion and when he doesn't need to do so. He is fast. What else needs to be said? Oh yes, he's inactive. But let me tell you one thing: I prefer having a not-so-active administration than having this silly alternative.


And now you might question, why not Wolverabid? Hell, he was promoted so fast I got the feeling he only wanted power. If he ever reads this and gets disappointed with me, I'm sorry, but that's the feeling I got, I'd be an hypocrite if I denied. I won't mind if he comes back though, even with this impression, I cannot deny that Wolverabid has been the administrator that has been most friendly with the users.

As for Ghan. So far he has done nothing as administrator that he could not do as a global moderator, so why the promotion? That's all I have to say. He fits well as a staff member... but administrator? He is the exact counterpart of Bob.

I can't really argue with that. You're right, for the most part.

There are two kinds of people on the Hive, the ones that suggest things and try to make improvements, and the ones who are constantly knocking things down, not making suggestions and are generally pessimistic or don't even know when issues are arising.

I'm definitely the former.

But all irony aside, there's a lot more to life than optimism and pessimism. You see, somewhere in the gray lies the mystical world of Constructive Criticism.

And besides, if it's a choice between making ideas and shooting them down, I think the latter is more fitting of a moderator's duties. A moderator's job is to watch over the users of the Hive and take care of what would be problematic. I think the concept of making ideas for the site is the job of the users and the admins.

Then if it is for the wrong reasons, you are thus helping to validate his example.

No, he isn't. If he was banned numerous times by Wulf, it goes to show that Wulf is not, in fact, standing at EF's side like a love-deprived rottweiler.

It seems like everyone is getting way too defensive here, and that rather than worrying about keeping your rights to be a mod, or trying to become a mod, that we should worry about what is for the good of the site, and not our own single petty differences we have with each other. This thread is meant for us to come together to help come up with a solution, not create more problems. Nobody wants a revolution here, just some simple changes so that the site run smoother, and continue to run rather than collapse.

So lets work together people. Dam.

Yeah, guys. If we work together, we can overcome adversity with the power of friendship!

The problem with this whole 'defensive' argument is that it's an easy to use, prepackaged 'your argument is invalid' catch phrase.

It's really hard to find who thinks that way versus who just plain out disagrees with you.

For example, with the Ash thing (which is what most of you are arguing about right now), it wouldn't affect any resource mods or forum mods, and yet those are the people I see speaking out against it.

QFT.

Rearrange the staff.
Demote all of them, then choose new ones properly.
If anyone of you wants my moderator suggestions, he or she shall tell me.

This isn't the Etch A Sketch Workshop. You can't just clear everything and expect it to be remade with ease. Furthermore, I'd say most of our mods are proficient at worst.

Anyhow, i know, that most of you will either flame me for this posting, give me -rep or just ignore me because i'm not a so-called veteran user and only few users will interpret my suggestion right but that's the way it goes..

I'm not going to flame you for not being a veteran user, but I most certainly will go Hulk Smash for what you've just said. What the hell do you think this site is? What kind of bullshit do you think we're trying to pull? No one's going to -rep you for an opinion they don't like. If that was the case, we'd have more -rep users than hairs on Cavman's face.

Retarded in-jokes aside, with that statement, you've insulted us much more than we've insulted you, so I hope you're proud of your hypocrisy.

People, the problem here is obvious. You're all blaming different moderation staff, single people. There is no single person ruining the functionallity of this site it is the entire staff as a whole that is flawed. Do not understand this in correctly, i'm not saying get rid of the entire staff. I am saying that the problem cannot be with one person, unless it is throughout. The problem is the entire staff as a whole.

It's a job of teamwork and communication, between users but even more so between fellow staff members. This is something a viable moderator must understand to do his job correctly. Obviously there is a huge conflict between people that needs to be resolved if this site is ever going to straighten up

Dont give me any bullshit about one person because one person isnt at fault. If theres a problem, the entire staff is to blame. What? You think you get powers without responsiblity? (Before you quote something on this, i do appreciate and realize the hard work you guys do so. But dont use that as an excuse.)

If there is a problem, the entire staff is to blame.

They say a politician is someone who can ramble on for hours without saying anything at all. In that logic, you are a great politician. I could have summed up everything you said into three points, none of which include evidence or a solution to the alleged problem.

1. The problem is the entire staff. Whether you mean the people on it or the system itself is ambiguous.
2. The problem with the entire staff is that there's a lack of communication, and therefore, conflicts between mods are the result.
3. You don't think the entire staff should be reformatted, despite the fact that you think the problem on this site lies with the entire staff.

Surely we can come to an understanding and let the normal users and Staff both have a solution they can all agree on. When ever we try to do that, people start flaming each other and pointing fingers. Ala whats happening now.

Every fucking time there's a conflict of interest, someone just has to call it flaming. In case you haven't noticed, no one's insulting one another. Passive aggresiveness? Perhaps. But there's no insults being thrown about at the people behind the comments. The whole Earth-Fury spiel is arguable, but even that is hardly flaming.

What's the point of Admins doing stuff directly visible on the forums, other than Ralle (who is, after all, changing the site layout)?

Admins are for doing server-end and back-end work. The Public Relations/General Moderation staff are the Global Moderators.

At least, that's the impression I've always gotten.

Again, QFT. For an admin, moderating forums, chat, or resources should just be a helpful bonus to their job. That's the impression that I get.

And there never will be, a "User-relations" mod would never work.

You cannot have a peasant stand and answer to a king the same way he would answer to his neighboor.

There will always be some sort of fear, envy and jealousy. No matter how faint, between users and moderators. Alot of users will understand what i mean.


The answer here is trust, something this site clearly lacks as they accuse each other without remorse.

Oh, I'm sorry, hearing all that corny RPG-type talking made me think of Elenai.
We do have a user-relations mod. It's called an Admin. We even have a forum for it, called the Admin Contact Something-or-Other. The problem is, to have a mod specifically made for User Relations would never work, because it's a job that's way too dependent on a person's opinion. Enforcing the rules is one thing. Deciding what's good for a user is another.

blah blah Jury of Awesomeness blah blah Anonymous blah.

No. You just blew things so far out of proportion, I can only say it rivals that of FAUX News.

blah blah HIVEChan blah Cyberbullying blah blah.

What I make on there is satire. What Ash does on there is satire. There is nothing wrong with HIVEChan except rule enforcing. You see, there are some people out there that treat HIVEChan as their personal army and an excuse to flame the shit out of people they don't like. And because that site is built on the foundation of a group of friends, we don't want any butthurt between us, but rules have to be enforced. What ultimately happens is the equivalent of the Running of the Bulls. There's nothing wrong with the site, there's just something that needs to be done about it.

One more thing. HIVEChan is a separate site from the Workshop. If you don't like it, avert your eyes.

blah blah elitism jealosy greed blah

No.

Just....no.

Well they cant really be causing trouble that cant be avoided if they have no power can they?

I'm not sure but, i cant be put down by someone who goes like "STFU YOUR WRONG *Dismantals my entire post sentance by sentance and attempts to dis-prove each one*

Now Gtfo"

So what? You can dis-mantal my post and blabber on thinking you are right. When you probebly arent. I can easily just ignore him and get on with the discussion. He cant "Delete" my post.

Such close-mindedness only applies to people you know are wrong.

I strongly disagree. I have been at fora without such a system where nobody, literally nobody even asked for a rep system. I can only see this lead to jealousy, and there's absolutely no reason to think removing it will cause trouble.

I've seen cars that don't have radios, and people who don't complain about it. What's your point? I personally like the rep system, not because it sizes up my ego, but because it's fun. I like it because it's nice to know that someone out there appreciates my smartass comments. Yes, we do often judge people by their rep, but then again, that's what it's for. It has a margin of error, but it's hardly ever miles away from it's intended goal unless you're TheDivineBoss.

That's my spiel. Pick it apart as you will, I don't really care.

That's just plain ignorant. I don't care if you're Buddha, no one has a right to say that.

anyone read 'animal farm' by george orwell? well you should, because you would learn that those who want to overthrow tirany would become tyrans in the end.

The moral of the story is that you can't trust pigs. What the hell are you on about?

On a side note Ash, I am fairly sure Rui is a She

I'm fairly certain Rui mentioned he was a He.

All in all, the only person I'm agreeing with all the way is PurplePoot.

 

[link598]

We still need a list, as there are more problems that have rooted into the HIVE.

Here some list of the hive problem:

1.People can't ignore other people.
2.People are going overboard on hating Naruto.

Well any more to add.

 

[Instant Ramen]

2.People are going overboard on hating Naruto.

...wtf? I'm sorry, did I miss something?

 

[Eleandor]

I've seen cars that don't have radios, and people who don't complain about it. What's your point?

My point is that removing it would not cause any damage, as purplepoot suggested it would. And I'm still of the opinion and will probably always be.

 

[Volvox]

1. You do not seek sonsolation on the internet, especially not in a chatroom filled with strangers. What did you expect, a warm hug and loads of kisses?
2. Hating naruto is a matter of taste, people who really hate it mostly hate it because of people who love it.

IMO, the only problem here is popularity. Don't even try to deny it, popularity breeds jealusy and that is basically a keg of dianmyte yet when it booms, everyone blames the spark.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

My point is that removing it would not cause any damage, as purplepoot suggested it would. And I'm still of the opinion and will probably always be.

You don't remove a good thing just because it wouldn't cause any major damage.

And don't give me all that "all it every brings is greed and jealousy". All money ever brings is greed and jealousy, and we still use it. Any good thing will bring greed and jealousy, because otherwise it wouldn't be a good thing. What are at fault are the users. I can spot an idiot because he has -rep and he can't spell. Does that mean he's definitely an idiot? No. But it is most certainly a likely case. People with loads and loads of rep aren't definitely likable people, but they are very likely to have contributed much to the community. That's just the way it is.