- Joined
- Dec 15, 2014
- Messages
- 45
cool map
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Summoner's Haven
- Author(s)
- Nethalythic
- Tags
- Melee
- Size
- 268.84 KB
- Rating
- Downloads
- 2120
- Created
- Dec 19, 2017
- Updated
- Dec 22, 2017
- Resources
- 1
- State
Approved
This bundle is marked as recommended. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
Map Description:
Rogue magi have sacked this town and claimed it as a haven to summon forth and enslave the elements and conduct their experiments away from prying eyes. Put down their mercenaries and experiments and claim their elemental servants as your own.
Map Features:
Rogue magi have sacked this town and claimed it as a haven to summon forth and enslave the elements and conduct their experiments away from prying eyes. Put down their mercenaries and experiments and claim their elemental servants as your own.
View of the entire map.
The middle, with the central Marketplace, southern and northern Tavern with a Mercenary Camp and Goblin Marketplace on the eastern and western side.
One player's section of the map, each having 3 Green Creep Camps, 3 Orange Creep Camps and 1 expansion Gold Mine.
Map Features:
- 6 Player Map
- 12 Gold Mines (6 Mains, 6 Possible Expansions)
- 2 Goblin Merchants
- 2 Mercenary Camps
- 2 Goblin Laboratories
- 2 Taverns
- 1 Marketplace
- 3 Green Camps in each player's section, of which 1 utilizes a Rune of Rebirth.
- 3 Orange Camps in each player's section, of which 1 utilizes a Rune of Rebirth.
- 6 Orange Camps
- 4 Red Camps
This map makes use of Runes of Rebirth.
I understand them to be typically unpopular, but I wanted to try to make a map where they do not come off as an imbalanced gimmick.
The map also uses slightly alterred drop tables I set up myself in order to remove certain items I believe are normally considered to be not worth keeping and thus are just sold off. An example of a removed item would be Ring of Protection +2.
This map was originally played on Wtii's stream. Most maps I make are played there and none have been uploaded here until now.
I've been hesistant to upload here as I haven't felt that the maps I made are up to the standard required. I thought I would try uploading this and see whether it belongs here.
I understand them to be typically unpopular, but I wanted to try to make a map where they do not come off as an imbalanced gimmick.
The map also uses slightly alterred drop tables I set up myself in order to remove certain items I believe are normally considered to be not worth keeping and thus are just sold off. An example of a removed item would be Ring of Protection +2.
This map was originally played on Wtii's stream. Most maps I make are played there and none have been uploaded here until now.
I've been hesistant to upload here as I haven't felt that the maps I made are up to the standard required. I thought I would try uploading this and see whether it belongs here.
1) Removed Cobble Path around creep camps to enable Ancient of War creeping.
2) Moved top-right and bottom-left gold mines further away from the player starting position. Also slightly moved the eastern and western gold mines away from player starting positions.
3) Changed the creep camp guarding the Gold Mines to be more difficult to clear, particularly for Militia.
4) Also changed various other creep camps in the middle, including the Goblin Laboratory, Mercenary Camp, 2 middle camps and top and bottom camps.
5) Removed a few trees to open up the top-right and bottom-left areas.
6) Added more doodads and changed some of the Cobble Path in the middle to Brick to try to alleviate the feeling of the terrain being plain.
2) Moved top-right and bottom-left gold mines further away from the player starting position. Also slightly moved the eastern and western gold mines away from player starting positions.
3) Changed the creep camp guarding the Gold Mines to be more difficult to clear, particularly for Militia.
4) Also changed various other creep camps in the middle, including the Goblin Laboratory, Mercenary Camp, 2 middle camps and top and bottom camps.
5) Removed a few trees to open up the top-right and bottom-left areas.
6) Added more doodads and changed some of the Cobble Path in the middle to Brick to try to alleviate the feeling of the terrain being plain.
Previews
Contents
Reviews
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2017
- Messages
- 111
Gameplaywise, the map's main flaw are the expansions - they're too close to players' starting locations and the creeps guarding them are very easy to defeat, resulting in numerous problems. For example, Human players can fast expand as soon as their hero comes out of the Altar, Blademasters get a free level 2 (since it's possible to clear the camp with just a Blademaster and a Grunt, mostly thanks to the Rune of Rebirth) and players may accidentally aggro creeps by building a bit further from their base (see picture below).
Additionally, the distance between the starting location and an expansion is varying from player to player, meaning that sometimes the issue of accidental aggro will be more apparent than usual. I suggest moving the expansions a bit further away from the starting locations and either increasing the level of the creeps or removing the Rune of Rebirth - I'm a fan of this rune myself and I love seeing it in melee maps, but an expansion is a delicate matter and its design has great impact on how the whole game plays out.
The second issue is the fact that Night Elf players have very limited and inefficient options of creeping with their Ancient of War. The picture below shows how unbuildable terrain prevents players from placing their AoW near the orange camp for effective creeping. Removing the Cobble Path would fix that problem and help Night Elf players in early-game.
Other than that, the map is fairly balanced. It's easily noticable how much effort you've put into the gameplay aspect of the map simply by looking at the the creeps' item drops, though I think Goblin Laboratory and Mercenary camps could use a few more creeps guarding them, considering both the items they offer and the sheer value of the buildings themselves. The concept of "Summoner's Haven" is captured well by the numerous Fountains of Mana scattered around the map. Such measure empowers spell-heavy heroes greatly, allowing them for casting spells almost non-stop, but I'm not sure if that's a real issue - every map may require a different approach and if it makes the game feel more refreshing and fun, then I see no harm in a map favouring casters.
In terms of visuals, there isn't really anything negative I can point out. The whole concept of the map is well thought-out. You made great use of a tileset that, for some reason, is used very rarely, even though it can look very good. The environment is aesthetically pleasing and doesn't hinder the gameplay aspect of the map. The design of creep spots is really nice - the obelisks, benches and magic lamps work very well together. The idea of a small town surrounded by a forest is simple, yet very effective. Summoner's Haven looks simply beautiful - the work you've put into creating such a visually amazing map deserves highest praise.
All in all, I thouroughly enjoyed this map. With the gameplay issues fixed, I'm confident this map is 5-star content.
Additionally, the distance between the starting location and an expansion is varying from player to player, meaning that sometimes the issue of accidental aggro will be more apparent than usual. I suggest moving the expansions a bit further away from the starting locations and either increasing the level of the creeps or removing the Rune of Rebirth - I'm a fan of this rune myself and I love seeing it in melee maps, but an expansion is a delicate matter and its design has great impact on how the whole game plays out.
The second issue is the fact that Night Elf players have very limited and inefficient options of creeping with their Ancient of War. The picture below shows how unbuildable terrain prevents players from placing their AoW near the orange camp for effective creeping. Removing the Cobble Path would fix that problem and help Night Elf players in early-game.
Other than that, the map is fairly balanced. It's easily noticable how much effort you've put into the gameplay aspect of the map simply by looking at the the creeps' item drops, though I think Goblin Laboratory and Mercenary camps could use a few more creeps guarding them, considering both the items they offer and the sheer value of the buildings themselves. The concept of "Summoner's Haven" is captured well by the numerous Fountains of Mana scattered around the map. Such measure empowers spell-heavy heroes greatly, allowing them for casting spells almost non-stop, but I'm not sure if that's a real issue - every map may require a different approach and if it makes the game feel more refreshing and fun, then I see no harm in a map favouring casters.
In terms of visuals, there isn't really anything negative I can point out. The whole concept of the map is well thought-out. You made great use of a tileset that, for some reason, is used very rarely, even though it can look very good. The environment is aesthetically pleasing and doesn't hinder the gameplay aspect of the map. The design of creep spots is really nice - the obelisks, benches and magic lamps work very well together. The idea of a small town surrounded by a forest is simple, yet very effective. Summoner's Haven looks simply beautiful - the work you've put into creating such a visually amazing map deserves highest praise.
All in all, I thouroughly enjoyed this map. With the gameplay issues fixed, I'm confident this map is 5-star content.
Last edited:
Icon Reviewer
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 8,912
It could use more doodads to bring it to life. Looks to plain right now.
- Joined
- May 21, 2014
- Messages
- 7
@twojstaryjakcie
1) Gold Mine creep camps more difficult to clear now. I wanted to move the gold mines further away, but it would require me to have the mental stamina to ensure it stays symmetrical, which I lack right now.
2) I moved the top-right and bottom-left Gold Mines further away. Not sure how I overlooked how close they were. I think the distance is just about right for everyone now. Edit: I decided to go ahead and give the eastern and western ones the same treatment, moving them further away from the starting positions a little bit.
3) Cobble Path removed from everywhere but the middle and around the fountains. Ancients of War should be placeable near every camp.
4) The fountains are doodads, not the actual Fountains of Mana which look very different. The fountains on the map are just aesthetic.
5) I changed the creep camps in the inner section around a bit. They're a bit more difficult now.
@The Panda
1) I wanted to be cautious about oversaturating the map with doodads because I didn't want it to be distracting, but I probably veered too far from the sweet point. I added more doodads to the map and a bit of texture variance to the middle. I would hesitate to add any more than this at the risk of making the map feel crowded. What do you think?
1) Gold Mine creep camps more difficult to clear now. I wanted to move the gold mines further away, but it would require me to have the mental stamina to ensure it stays symmetrical, which I lack right now.
2) I moved the top-right and bottom-left Gold Mines further away. Not sure how I overlooked how close they were. I think the distance is just about right for everyone now. Edit: I decided to go ahead and give the eastern and western ones the same treatment, moving them further away from the starting positions a little bit.
3) Cobble Path removed from everywhere but the middle and around the fountains. Ancients of War should be placeable near every camp.
4) The fountains are doodads, not the actual Fountains of Mana which look very different. The fountains on the map are just aesthetic.
5) I changed the creep camps in the inner section around a bit. They're a bit more difficult now.
@The Panda
1) I wanted to be cautious about oversaturating the map with doodads because I didn't want it to be distracting, but I probably veered too far from the sweet point. I added more doodads to the map and a bit of texture variance to the middle. I would hesitate to add any more than this at the risk of making the map feel crowded. What do you think?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2017
- Messages
- 111
@Nethalythic Great changes, though I think you took my expansion difficulty remark to heart a bit too much - a Granite Golem is basically a red camp on itself, even if the map doesn't say so (it's just an insanely powerful creep + it has an aoe ability that destroys Militia). I was thinking about increasing the level of one or two creeps or just adding an additional level 3-5 creep, not releasing a level 9 beast. However, that's a minor problem that's easily fixed, so apart from that, good job!
PS: I completely didn't realize those were just doodads
Oh, I know that the fountains are doodads, I just somehow thought the Greater Voidwalkers were actual Fountains of Mana XD (since they're purple and by some miracle reminded me of the Mana Fountain) I guess I could use more sleep. You're right, there aren't six Fountains of Mana, just six Greater Voidwalkers.
PS: I completely didn't realize those were just doodads
Oh, I know that the fountains are doodads, I just somehow thought the Greater Voidwalkers were actual Fountains of Mana XD (since they're purple and by some miracle reminded me of the Mana Fountain) I guess I could use more sleep. You're right, there aren't six Fountains of Mana, just six Greater Voidwalkers.
- Joined
- May 21, 2014
- Messages
- 7
@twojstaryjakcie I tried several setups and always found them quite doable with about 7 Militia and 2-3 Footmen + an Archmage using 2 Water Elementals, without using any units. Berserk Elemental was my first choice because of the Frost Nova, but it seems to prefer using Frost Nova on your hero. It did nothing to hinder the Militia and I cleared it with no casualties.
The current camp is actually doable as well, but it's somewhat difficult to control your Militia to not lose any of them.
It felt at least somewhat justified given the proximity of the Gold Mines and the fact that it's the only one obtainable.
Here's some proposed alternatives I can think of:
1) Replace the Granite Golem with an Ogre Lord. Shockwave will act as a moderate deterrance to Militia. Will lower the total level of the camp from 19 to 17.
2) Replace the creep camp with Furbolgs. Furbolg Ursa Warrior, Shaman and Furbolg. War Stomp/Command Aura/Rejuvenation. Total of 16 levels.
3) Replace the creep camp with demons. Kind of thematic in the "summoning gone awry" kind of sense. Demons got loose and claimed the gold mines. Overlord, Bloodfiend, Eredar Sorcerer, Felbeast. Cleaving Attack(x2, Overlord and Bloodfiend)/Howl of Terror/Vampiric Aura/Sleep/Abolish Magic. Total of 17 levels.
4) Replace the creep camp with revenants. Thematic because they've been "summoned" by the wizards. Ice Revenant, Lightning Revenant and Fire Revenant. Frost Nova/Vampiric Aura/Chain Lightning/Purge/Immolation. Total of 17 levels.
I'm going to test these combinations with a group of say 6-7 Militia, 2 Footmen and an Archmage and see how it goes.
Edit: They were all very doable with no casualties, though Revenants seemed to deal the most damage and the demon group took the longest (probably due to Howl). I think it needs to be just a little bit tougher. 1 AM with 7 Militia and 2 Footmen was all it took, summoning 2 Water Elementals to help tank.
I like the combination of an Infernal and 2 Felbeasts. It's a bit too hard to take down early but not awfully hard if you have a few extra Footmen or similar, though Infernals are a bit nasty. If the goal is for players not to be able to easily fast expand, the gold mine needs to be difficult to clear early though.
The current camp is actually doable as well, but it's somewhat difficult to control your Militia to not lose any of them.
It felt at least somewhat justified given the proximity of the Gold Mines and the fact that it's the only one obtainable.
Here's some proposed alternatives I can think of:
1) Replace the Granite Golem with an Ogre Lord. Shockwave will act as a moderate deterrance to Militia. Will lower the total level of the camp from 19 to 17.
2) Replace the creep camp with Furbolgs. Furbolg Ursa Warrior, Shaman and Furbolg. War Stomp/Command Aura/Rejuvenation. Total of 16 levels.
3) Replace the creep camp with demons. Kind of thematic in the "summoning gone awry" kind of sense. Demons got loose and claimed the gold mines. Overlord, Bloodfiend, Eredar Sorcerer, Felbeast. Cleaving Attack(x2, Overlord and Bloodfiend)/Howl of Terror/Vampiric Aura/Sleep/Abolish Magic. Total of 17 levels.
4) Replace the creep camp with revenants. Thematic because they've been "summoned" by the wizards. Ice Revenant, Lightning Revenant and Fire Revenant. Frost Nova/Vampiric Aura/Chain Lightning/Purge/Immolation. Total of 17 levels.
I'm going to test these combinations with a group of say 6-7 Militia, 2 Footmen and an Archmage and see how it goes.
Edit: They were all very doable with no casualties, though Revenants seemed to deal the most damage and the demon group took the longest (probably due to Howl). I think it needs to be just a little bit tougher. 1 AM with 7 Militia and 2 Footmen was all it took, summoning 2 Water Elementals to help tank.
I like the combination of an Infernal and 2 Felbeasts. It's a bit too hard to take down early but not awfully hard if you have a few extra Footmen or similar, though Infernals are a bit nasty. If the goal is for players not to be able to easily fast expand, the gold mine needs to be difficult to clear early though.
Last edited:
Map Reviewer
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2009
- Messages
- 18,807
Author and username are different.
1. Terrain is pretty much flat.
2. Rune of Rebirth on a green camp for a unit with Cold Arrows? Overpowered rush man. However, this will also turn the game into a who gets most Voidwalkers first chase.
3. Are you sure the neutrals near the Laboratories have lowest camp range? Or the Kobolds with their boss Water Elemental?
4. Basically, everyone has an expansion and that's it.
5. You could use the triggers from this map to avoid enemy spawning near you in few player matches: Skeletal Coast v1.3
Approved.
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1. Terrain is pretty much flat.
2. Rune of Rebirth on a green camp for a unit with Cold Arrows? Overpowered rush man. However, this will also turn the game into a who gets most Voidwalkers first chase.
3. Are you sure the neutrals near the Laboratories have lowest camp range? Or the Kobolds with their boss Water Elemental?
4. Basically, everyone has an expansion and that's it.
5. You could use the triggers from this map to avoid enemy spawning near you in few player matches: Skeletal Coast v1.3
Approved.
=================================================
Always check/recheck the Map Submission Rules! (Map Submission Rules)
These will help make a better description:
Screenshots could attract more players to download your work. Make the best of them.
If you want more reviews, come here:
The Grand Review Exchange!
Map Reviewer
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
- Messages
- 869
Very nice map. Creeps and itemdrops are well desgined and the looks also nice. How did you manage to stack the doodads, for example the fences and trees? Havent seen that before.
Regarding gameplay, a lot depends on how you intend your map to be played: 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, FFA? What you were discussing for expansions and frost arrow creeps is mostly valid for 1v1, in other cases I believe there is some more flexibility possible.
Some notes:
-Flower and other "living" doodads near bases look imho a bit silly when playing undead and you have them on blight.
-Some creeps in the center might attack units that walk past them. It is not as big of an issue as on other maps though: Scouting will happen by checking bases one after the other. Still, during midgame I can see this happen quite often. Unfortunately, I dont see an immediate solution.
-There are some very narrow areas, which might hinder army movements in 2v2 and 3v3. There are tons of choke points which are only one cell (yellow grid box) wide, and some even smaller. That would be narrow even in 1v1, where it gives a huge advantage for talons against orcs, for example (or more generally, benefits ranged units over melee).
-The expansion is indeed now too tough for humans, the golem will surely slam twice at least and then all your milita are half hp and easy prey for the enemy. How about a siege golem instead? Also lvl 9, but no mean abilities, much less damage, slighlty more hp (I'd say the siege golem should be lvl 7-8 as consequence, but that's another story).
Regarding gameplay, a lot depends on how you intend your map to be played: 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, FFA? What you were discussing for expansions and frost arrow creeps is mostly valid for 1v1, in other cases I believe there is some more flexibility possible.
Some notes:
-Flower and other "living" doodads near bases look imho a bit silly when playing undead and you have them on blight.
-Some creeps in the center might attack units that walk past them. It is not as big of an issue as on other maps though: Scouting will happen by checking bases one after the other. Still, during midgame I can see this happen quite often. Unfortunately, I dont see an immediate solution.
-There are some very narrow areas, which might hinder army movements in 2v2 and 3v3. There are tons of choke points which are only one cell (yellow grid box) wide, and some even smaller. That would be narrow even in 1v1, where it gives a huge advantage for talons against orcs, for example (or more generally, benefits ranged units over melee).
-The expansion is indeed now too tough for humans, the golem will surely slam twice at least and then all your milita are half hp and easy prey for the enemy. How about a siege golem instead? Also lvl 9, but no mean abilities, much less damage, slighlty more hp (I'd say the siege golem should be lvl 7-8 as consequence, but that's another story).
- Joined
- May 21, 2014
- Messages
- 7
@deepstrasz
I'll look into changing my username if at all possible, as most people refer to me as Nick. Even if it doesn't match up, it's no big deal in my opinion.
1) There is heightmap variation. No cliffs though. Adding them would be a mistake I think. I could make the difference in height a little more significant though if it still looks too flat.
2) This isn't exclusive to Runes of Rebirth. Items have the same issue. You could rush to clear a bunch of camps for good items. I think it's hard to truly "fix" this issue unless you somehow made certain camps only clearable by certain players.
3) Their aggro range is indeed the lowest.
4) I take it you mean there's no potential thirds. I don't think that damages the balance of the map as everyone's in the same situation. Fitting in more expansions on the map would be a challenge with the size. I personally think it's ok for some maps to have just 1 expansion per player, and for others to have more.
5) The map would no longer be classified as a melee map. I kind of think it should be, but maybe that's just me being weird. If people want to, they could always add in those triggers you mentioned.
@mafe
Hold down Shift and you can place doodads partially inside of eachother.
The map was always meant to be played as a 3v3. True it's not as important in a 3v3 but it's still nice if everyone has an equally difficult time expanding.
1) That's part of why I don't really like them on melee maps. I understand they add to the aesthetic of the map, but they can be distracting visually, especially on blight. I could probably remove the doodads I placed near bases and keep some of the other ones, but I can't both have doodads and not have them - someone's gonna be unhappy either way.
2) deepstrasz had the same complaint. I think I know just how to tug them in a bit more.
3) Most of those are in the middle area. I was actually told the middle was too empty by a few people before I even uploaded it here. It's excessively difficult to keep big open spaces while not having those big open spaces seem empty. Filling them with stuff would obviously just remmove the big open spaces again. I definitely see the issue though. I'll look into it and try to open up those pathways in the middle area more.
4) I was given the impression it was imbalanced because you could fast expand with very few units. There's a bit of an issue here: Doable = "too easy". Not doable = "too hard". I think I'm going to change it to something else that takes longer to clear while not being as deadly to your units as the Granite Golem.
I'll look into changing my username if at all possible, as most people refer to me as Nick. Even if it doesn't match up, it's no big deal in my opinion.
1) There is heightmap variation. No cliffs though. Adding them would be a mistake I think. I could make the difference in height a little more significant though if it still looks too flat.
2) This isn't exclusive to Runes of Rebirth. Items have the same issue. You could rush to clear a bunch of camps for good items. I think it's hard to truly "fix" this issue unless you somehow made certain camps only clearable by certain players.
3) Their aggro range is indeed the lowest.
4) I take it you mean there's no potential thirds. I don't think that damages the balance of the map as everyone's in the same situation. Fitting in more expansions on the map would be a challenge with the size. I personally think it's ok for some maps to have just 1 expansion per player, and for others to have more.
5) The map would no longer be classified as a melee map. I kind of think it should be, but maybe that's just me being weird. If people want to, they could always add in those triggers you mentioned.
@mafe
Hold down Shift and you can place doodads partially inside of eachother.
The map was always meant to be played as a 3v3. True it's not as important in a 3v3 but it's still nice if everyone has an equally difficult time expanding.
1) That's part of why I don't really like them on melee maps. I understand they add to the aesthetic of the map, but they can be distracting visually, especially on blight. I could probably remove the doodads I placed near bases and keep some of the other ones, but I can't both have doodads and not have them - someone's gonna be unhappy either way.
2) deepstrasz had the same complaint. I think I know just how to tug them in a bit more.
3) Most of those are in the middle area. I was actually told the middle was too empty by a few people before I even uploaded it here. It's excessively difficult to keep big open spaces while not having those big open spaces seem empty. Filling them with stuff would obviously just remmove the big open spaces again. I definitely see the issue though. I'll look into it and try to open up those pathways in the middle area more.
4) I was given the impression it was imbalanced because you could fast expand with very few units. There's a bit of an issue here: Doable = "too easy". Not doable = "too hard". I think I'm going to change it to something else that takes longer to clear while not being as deadly to your units as the Granite Golem.
Map Reviewer
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2009
- Messages
- 18,807
Or just write your username instead of Nick on the map author in the editor?
But if you want to change your username, ask here: https://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/staff-contact.692/
- Joined
- May 21, 2014
- Messages
- 7
I don't mean to come off as pushy, rude or anything. I'll just change the author name in the map next time I update it. Hopefully I wont need to update it after that. I didn't expect I'd be changing so much. I'll probably treat any other melee maps as "WIP" and get feedback on potential issues before uploading them in the future.
On a side note, it's quite difficult to open a map up while also ensuring it's not plain, at least without using some sort of doodads. I think there's a certain level of sacrifice involved here where you need to choose between looks and gameplay, and I think gameplay should win.
On a side note, it's quite difficult to open a map up while also ensuring it's not plain, at least without using some sort of doodads. I think there's a certain level of sacrifice involved here where you need to choose between looks and gameplay, and I think gameplay should win.
Map Reviewer
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
- Messages
- 869
Yes I guess you can never please everyone when making a map.
The problem of "empty appearance" I think often happens with village-like environments that are relatively symmetric/clean/aligned. My first idea would be to make more use of the rise/lower terrain tool. Like for example, increase the height of every grass tile a bit. Then it would still look quite natural, but less flat, which imho is a good improvement in terms of looks without changin anything gameplay-related.
The problem of "empty appearance" I think often happens with village-like environments that are relatively symmetric/clean/aligned. My first idea would be to make more use of the rise/lower terrain tool. Like for example, increase the height of every grass tile a bit. Then it would still look quite natural, but less flat, which imho is a good improvement in terms of looks without changin anything gameplay-related.
