"Project WarSoc"

[Gerlif]

This project sounds really awesome ;D Cant wait to see it in action

Oh, and when you need beta testers, let me know

 

[HappyTauren]

i think that the whole site is now beta tester

 

[Deckboy]

Very interesting concept. I once had a discussion with someone about this sort of thing(we were talking about the limits of the wcIII engine) and although we had eventually decided that this was theoretically possible, we never deemed it very likely. And we definitely didn't dream of it on such a large scale as you have.

I've never been a really good coder. Horrible in fact. (yeah, yeah, I know I'm worthless) So I'll probably not be making any mods for this. I will. however, love to be playing brilliantly scripted mods by such genius' as WH(if he decides to) and the like. That would be an absolute joy.

I can see the awesome potential for this and I must say my hat's off to you Mind.

Keep up the good work!

-Deck

 

[Hakeem]

I think it would be really cool to edit all the campaigns so that you could play as any race, throughout the entire campaigns. And you play against other people.
That way someone would play as the undead, trying to complete their mission, while the humans are playing against them, trying to complete their own mission.

I'd play that all the way through. With every race. Twice.

 

[Infinitynexus]

Thats a big project, thank god im not the one who has to make that xD

 

[Kixer]

That can be done partialy in normal Wc3...
Just use an Mpq editor and open the war3.mpq or war3x.mpq file and extract the maps, then open them in World Editor and edit to your hearts content...

 

[Hakeem]

Not the part I want.

 

[SFilip]

Most (if not all) campaigns are made for single player and as such would be very IMBA if some computer was replaced by a player.
In addition to that WarSoc is simply not needed for this - it has two primary uses (more than 12 players and active joining) none of which is crucial here.

 

[Eleandor]

I think he's mainly talking about the possibility of playing multiple maps while saving gamecache data. For instance: the orc missions where in map 1 the orc players have to gather 15k wood and the NE players need to prevent this. Then in map 2, depending on whether the orcs managed to gather the wood or not, one of 2 teams start with an advantage (such as additional wood, encampments, etc.). In map 2 the NE will have to protect cenarius, while the orcs must kill them. Something like that isn't possible yet in bnet

 

[Mor)L(unE]

You know your inventing the most revolutionairy thing in warcraft history dont you? ahh nevertheless good luck, il be one of your first clients

 

[PurplePoot]

You know your inventing the most revolutionairy thing in warcraft history dont you? ahh nevertheless good luck, il be one of your first clients

I dunno, vJass is pretty close. I mean, this idea is kewl, and will be useful for certain things, but vJass is probably more all-round useful.

Anyhow, yeah, good job so far. I just hope that you'll actually be able to run more than 12 players on a decent connection without getting massive lag. (well, delay, anyways)

Though it does sould like synching is going to be a pain.

 

[SFilip]

Well vJass and custom natives have a completely different concept - vJass is just a good way of using the current functionality of Warcraft while RtC actually adds something you can't normally do.

> without getting massive lag.
Would depend solely on the connection and possibly the way a map is made.

 

[Mor)L(unE]

Theres one downside though, if everything in a map needs to be triggered. that makes a payload of extra work, however it will be worth the trouble if it works correctly

 

[Eleandor]

I guess the final product will come along with all spells in the normal game but triggered... So that reduces alot of work for the average modder...

Besides, this project won't be very useful to play melee maps with because if the max. map size remains the same, adding 32 players to 1 game will not be good. Which means most maps for this project will be maps that'll use custom abilities and stuff anyway, which is as much work in normal editor (with jass) as it is in rtc...

 

[MindWorX]

Well, sometimes having to trigger everything, isn't a downside, with a custom damage system, you can have damage types not available in wc3 already, an example would be the default damage system I'm making, that has 8 types, which works with combat and spells alike, with a custom spell system, you aren't limited to normal spells, while, if you need a standard spell, they're usually not hard to trigger.

 

[Mor)L(unE]

I was reffering onyl to the "extra work thing" offcourse you have the plusses from jass (wich are big ones)

and i think warsoc will be used for mainly rpgs (others generally dont have enough space)

 

[SFilip]

> "extra work thing"
We'll see to it that most of this "work" is customization.

> will be used for mainly rpgs
Arenas with active joining would be interesting.
FPS would be nice too, but I'm not quite sure how would that look.
Tag maps are possible as well.
Don't forget AoS, if one player leaves you can just wait for another to come and balance it out.
Just about everything is possible to turn into MMO, only limited by one's imagination.

 

[Rui]

Well, yes, if you can have multiple players in multiple maps without causing desync, this project will hit six stars. I can imagine how cool it would be =)

Anyway, about the joining & leaving: can't you put a 'limit'? What I mean is, if a player leaves, allow the host or the game itself to "close" the slot so that no other players may join. This would be useful specially if a player has been defeated. If the player joins and sees that he has nothing to do there, he'll leave, and this will happen constantly until somebody that is only willing to watch joins.


About the damage types; multiple damage types is pretty cool! I would suggest increasing to ten or more, to make sure there are enough damage types. For FPS games, multiple damage types usage for guns would make them quite unique. Same for RTS games.
Since you're doing that, is it possible to add more races as well? Or at least some new interface icons (the small icons in the score screen. Humans have a Footman, Orcs have a Grunt, Undead have a Skeleton Archer, and Night Elves have an Archer), in case somebody is willing to use them for Azeroth-Wars-Like or BFME-like games.

Race	Interface Icon
Nerubians	Crypt Fiend
Naga	Naga Myrmidon (already exists)
Blood Elves	Spell Breaker (already exists)
High Elves	High Elven Archer
Demons	Doom Guard
Satyrs	Satyr/Satyr Soulstealer/Satyr Hellcaller
Fel Orcs	Fel Orc Grunt
	Subraces	Interface Icon
	Dwarves	Rifleman
	Tauren	Tauren
	Trolls	Troll Headhunter OR Shadow Hunter
	Druids	Druid of the Talon

 

[MR. FJ]

I like this idea...
But seriously if you could get someone to convert this to gui (in some way) you would probably increase the number of users times 2 or even 3.
Because all noobs (including me ;D) dosn't think jass is easier or better, and not being able to use triggers in worleditor is a HUGE downside

Edit: Lol my new signature is to long XD XD XD better change it

 

[HappyTauren]

This will be tool for advanced modders who have passed all jass functions and didn't find what they were looking for. So no "noobs" here, meaning you have to master jass. GUI doesn't by any means work like jass so converting thisd into jass would be also stupid. As you have to trigger the most basic spells such as heal.

 

[PurplePoot]

You can still make triggers in JASS

On a more serious note, JASS is better, and that's not an opinion. Easier is an opinion, however.

Also, the goal of RtC is not to attract as many modders as possible, as far as I know. (Though I'm sure it would welcome more JASSers with open arms)

And yes, what HT said is sort of right, it's an extension on some of the functions that never made it into JASS but either should have, or in some cases just work nicely with WarSoc.

Also, the softcap on WarSoc would probably cause a lot of grief for GUI users if they could ever possibly use it.

 

[Cheeder]

After reading this i have a few comments to make;


1) Your quote, "There is very few things added to the mpq's, so making your old mpq's work with WarSoc shouldn't be impossible."

Isn't there a legality issue with this?

2) How exactly would you find existing games?

3) This relates to 2 and also the issue of lag. If you had an interface that allows you to find servers, you could also filter them by average ping.

4) This relates to 3 and also this earlier provided link,
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09/02/news_6132467.html

It states that you cannot host the game on ANY server except for designated Battle.net servers;

"The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals in St. Louis ruled Thursday that federal law--specifically, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act--disallows players from altering Blizzard games to link with servers other than the company's official Battle.net site."

That right there is the end of your project. If your project is distributed i think it may come back to bite you in the ass.. Because Blizzard Entertainment is shamelessly greedy like all American companies and don't care what they have to do as long as they get money.

To conclude, as much as i like the options, not so much the details which seem to give the impression that map-makers are limited and thus subjected to certain learning abilities in order to use WarSoc for creating maps, i think you'd be better off creating your own game. You have that ability, the knowledge and the rare dedication. Or you could become part of an already existing gaming company.

There are free engines out there for you to start with, even my friend is creating or, by now, has created his own, and if you wanted you could probably hook-up with him for resouces or knowledge.

I really don't mean to put you off, but don't you think it'd be easier to just get a mass protest going, which would be equal to the amount of advertising WarSoc would need to become popular, pleading with Blizzard to implement these two options (and other declared options) into the WE? An option for more than 12 players, a bigger map size and possible joining-to-spectating-to-playing feature, which would do the same thing.

UMSWE has a map-size option of 480x128. To think of all the work you're going through, wouldn't it be easier to mess with UMSWE and find out what is stopping, or what would crash a larger map size and then modding it to work?
I remember someone said something about Bnet servers detecting map-size or file size? So perhaps i am suggesting an un-workable solution.

Yeah WC3 is a great game, minus the crappy, mindless, mind-numbing custom maps, but your potential is greater than this feature. Really, i just wouldn't want to see your potential go down the drain because Blizzard finally decided to do some investigating into their offspring communities and decided like exercising their influence and ruin your life because you wanted to help people have a happier experience.
Money rules in this land of wickedness, not the persuit of happiness.

I hope you do well in your endeavors.

 

[matyko]

Blizzardhas withdrawn from the active production of warcraft 3 content. While they DO give service support, I seriously doubt they'D get a programming team together this for an old game like this...

WarSoc FTW

 

[SFilip]

Thank you for your comments and support, Cheeder.

1) When it comes to legality this is probably the least of our worries.

2) Current plan is using IRC or a similar IM system, you would ask a bot to list you the game and it would give you the server's hostname/IP. There will probably also be a launcher that does this automatically.

3) The launcher will do the pinging.

4) We aren't really making a custom battle.net replacement server here. If a C&D letter arrives the project will end.
If nothing else we will both get some programming/networking experience thanks to this.

 

[Ghost-]

Lol, Cheeder why did you say all that ?
I think its going be nice that theres gonna happen something to Wc3.
( I like the game. )
Dont just run in and ruin everything ^^ That aint nice .. I think its good that they dont stop, and still keep on trying

 

[Sa(V)uRaI]

holy snap dude...i HAVE to be a tester for this...HAVE too...gah....i wanna beta test it so badlyyyyy

 

[BloodStorm2262]

I think if anything, Blizzard would ignore it do to the small numbers it will probably attract (compared to battle.net's user numbers) but if they found out about it they would probably support the idea since production of wc3 has ended.

 

[Emperor_Jackal]

FPS would be nice too, but I'm not quite sure how would that look.

As far as I know true First Person Shooters are not possible on Warcraft III, you can make a third person shooter and make the camera go above the unit's head, so it looks like a fps but it isnt.

Mind you though there are bugs using third person view, particularly with cliffs, you can look through them and the camera cannot adjust correctly to fit how high up your unit is.

I think if anything, Blizzard would ignore it do to the small numbers it will probably attract (compared to battle.net's user numbers) but if they found out about it they would probably support the idea since production of wc3 has ended.

It would not need as many users, if people can join halfway through a game, the game will last longer, so the people will play longer.

 

[BloodStorm2262]

Any progress updates available?

 

[MindWorX]

Well, I'm working on it, but making an actual working multiplayer game, which is pretty much what we're doing from scratch, is a lot of work. I'm currently looking at other ways of doing it, so that I can save some work. One of my thoughts was to do a turn based game, maybe a game like this or maybe just online hero storage, which would be less work, and not 100% amazing, but at least show that we're still working on it.

 

[DoOs_101]

Get it done quickly! hehe sorry, yes the game is a good idea. However once you get the WarSoc system going, do other mapmakers need to use an enhanced world editor or do you just make the map straight from scratch notepad?

 

[chobibo]

Blizzard never did gave us the jass natives we needed, from data systems to timers that can take arguements. Because of this, I can say that map coders/ jassers would love this one! Just imagine the possibilities with new natives, I look forward into coding spells in this environment. Good luck on your quest!!

@off-topic: Do you have a replacement for TSA (TriggerSleepAction) native? I think it would be good to have such a native, one that is as accurate as a timer, we would be able to code things easier and more efficient and without needing to use storage systems to pass data to timers. Just my opinion though.

 

[SFilip]

We currently don't intend to make a TSA replacement (it was attempted at some point, but proven to be a little more difficult than we thought).
A native attachment system for timers and triggers might happen though.

 

[Toadcop]

A native attachment system for timers and triggers might happen though.

timers don't really need it ^^
SleepAction is a fucking syncing piece of shit xD never use it.
// don't waste time on useless features.

i am currently are very interested on the custom sync system =)
cause it's the most hard part. but it's also MUST be gameplay specific.
i would prefer to make it D2 like aka no event blocks. only action ^^
// i am theorizing xD
anyway nice stuff what you have gj !

 

[Darkholme]

So effectively how woule the gameplay change in this. It would be like an MMO? If that's the case, that would be sweet. A sophisticated follow cam would rock hardcore too.

 

[PurgeandFire]

So effectively how woule the gameplay change in this. It would be like an MMO? If that's the case, that would be sweet. A sophisticated follow cam would rock hardcore too.

It wouldn't affect gameplay at all, but you can make an MMO like game. In fact, when or if this gets finished, you can probably easily make a MMO.

 

[Darkholme]

It's a system for a persistant server right? Without a player count limit?

 

[DoOs_101]

My question is still not answered...

How will mapmakers continue making the map? Will you have a modified WE ?

 

[HappyTauren]

The modified we is already done, and is called JassNewGenPack. It is being updated constantly, and already has some warsoc stuff in it (not 100% working though).

 

[DoOs_101]

Cool, so one day a modder will be able to make maps that can play up to 64 players?

And the tool we need is JassNewGenPack?

 

[HappyTauren]

Yes, newgen doesn't fully work with custom natives, it is not finished yet, but it will have all it needs to be compatible with WarSoc and RtC.
As for 64 playeres, player cap will be determined by the speed of server, the map data and so on... It would sometimes lag too much.

 

[DoOs_101]

The issue lies in whether wc3 engine is built for more than 64 players. Because then it would not be feasible to make a 64 player map if the game engine cannot support.

 

[HappyTauren]

Not really. This way you start game in singleplayer mode, then there is a syncing system, that syncs memory among computers, thus it looks like everyone is playing the same execution of the map (thus you can have active joining/leaving. As far as I know, movement syncing is done, and I think attacks are as well. Spells will have to be triggered 100%; No matter what the spell does on YOUR OWN computer, you will have to sync it with others, you will even have to trigger Heal ability. Also keep in mind that MindWorX is messing with wc3 engine, thus limits can go off if there are any. I would also suggest you to read stickies of this forum for more information.

 

[DoOs_101]

Nice...

Now will modding WarSoc have much more opportunity than modding Starcraft II? And if WarSoc gets distributed will we have enough warcraft III population to actually make it worth something?

 

[Herman]

woahhh

This is insane, so your pretty much changing WarcraftIII into a compltely new game???

This should be f*cking insane

 

[DoOs_101]

Yeah, this will allow us to make games like Battlefield and mmorpg. I get the idea of Synchronizing, but then you guys have to make your own battlenet and battlenet server.

 

[HappyTauren]

Uhh this is how it works. You got a RtC launcher and you need to connect to IP of another computer. Then, that computer you've connected for, is the host, and does need no external server to work.
Oh, and FPS system is working! You can walk with WSAD and move your aim with mouse!

 

[Herman]

lol

Sweet

So as of right now you guys got a fully function FPS going for one the WarSoc

Oh, I understand the syncronizing bit, each computer has a specific set of data, and they each send data around via the host, and then each computer shows the effects/does the action

I'm a little confused as to how you would do custom natives (I believe some kind of third-party program?)

 

[HappyTauren]

Yes, engine is hacked, thus you are able to add anything you wish to it.

 

[Herman]

How?

Is it some kind of special program you guys made? (I would think so)
Does that program even have a language? (again, I think so, but what language???)
I have never hacked anything before, so I can only imagine