Map Section issues {A message to all map "reviewers".}

[Zombie]

Dear community,

I have recently taken time to browse through a few mapping threads and maps themselves, usually of what the community deems to be of lower quality. These maps, no matter how much they are against the rules of submission, get responded to with a ludicrously harsh treatment from all "reviewers" in mapping.

Let me give you a few anonymous quotations that I have seen in ONE thread.

fdsfsdgvfdxgbcvhnbjmhjfghsdfsafdsgdfgdg
you call that a description? i call it a map screaming "Reject me!!"

Reject, delete and burn.

"Burn "Burn
P.S Map is a dump ;

Burn in hell, you wretched fool of a map!

Who uploaded this needs to get laid.

Please reject and stuck this map up somewhere dark.

No, no and no.

Instead of naively proposing another rule which has no chance to even get to ML, I would like to deliver a message to all users who decide to ever comment a map.

1) What you do is not constructive criticism. Instead of telling someone how much he or his map sucks, point him out what he needs to improve. Telling someone it simply sucks, even if it's obvious why, is fucking unnecessary. Telling him what he needs to correct/improve and how he can do it, is what you call being constructive.

2) Trolling him, assaulting the submitter as a person just because he submitted a map with mistakes does not make you a "reviewer", instead it makes you a rule violator just as much as the submitter is, believe me I could troll you back for it just as much.

Show at least a bit more friendliness instead of yelling "USELESS SHIT BURN BURN". Point out why it is useless, point out why it needs to burn, use a civil tone and try not to discourage the user from mapping entirely. I do imagine none of you oh-so-skilled map reviewers began as "professionals" either.

There's a person on the other side and you won't get promoted to staff just because you post in every map thread. The content is relevant, not the existence of the post, if you really wish to help.

 

[Lambdadelta]

Heh. They shouldn't be called Map Reviewers, more of Map Thread Reviewers.

 

[Zombie]

No, by map threads I was referring to the thread-based commentary section attached to each submitted map in the maps section, thus the definition is accurate.

 

[Lambdadelta]

Well, I've just noticed a lot of the calls for rejection stem from a 'violating' description. So I've just sarcastically labelled these map reviewers as map thread reviewers Haha.

 

[Zombie]

Oh, I hear what you're saying. I imagine the pileup of maps in the section is getting annoying to some people so they find all kinds of bullshit reasons to reject maps, but it's rather gay how most people yell at the maps' description and label the entire thing as shit without even playing the map. Sure it may be less of an issue if it was to be done in a proper manner.

 

[jk2pach]

Ladies, Gentlemen,

I support Zombie's message. It looks like most people calling them "map reviewer" with quite arrogance are definitely not testing the map more than 5 minutes - when they test it: most of time, with such "review", it seems they just read the description.

And, once again, I'm definitely bored to read 10 people proposing a map maker to use BBCodes in 10 messages without one saying "You should improve the unit XYZ because the spell ABC is not blabla.

No, I read only "Poor description RULES VIOLATION" written with an aggressive red, ended with "VOTE FOR REJECTION".

In France, we call the guys using MSN messenger with tons of smileys, words like "omg XD lol huhu" the "kikoolols". [Kikoo comes from "Coucou", a french word to say "hi", and lol, of course, is lol. Kikoolols are most of time poor kids not able to talk but only to spam smileys, emotiwords, exclamation mark etc.]

To all people calling themselves reviewers: stop to be "kikoolols". Write criticism. Once again, why the hell are you judging a map:
1-Without being moderator
2-Without testing the map seriously
3-Without giving advices to improve the map (and not that damned BBCodes, poor god!)
4-Without simply trying to help the author instead of burning him with nuke bombs?

Have a nice day,

 

[The World Is Flat]

Zombie is of course, right as hell.

I personally feel that map submissions and moderation should be more intensly policed. We arent epicwar, maps shouldent appear until they've been approved as a working non-spam/steal map, reguardless of quality. It would probably be a pain, but the maps have to get reviewed anyway, and having less public spammaps is just a good idea. Just hire like 5 more map mods and give them some kind of monthly review quota or smomthing, idk.

BECAUSE WARCRAFT MODDING AND THE HIVE IS REALLY QUITE YOU KNOW.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

Uh... I think he's trying to say people are way to big headed and harsh with their so called 'reviews' and it's not only rude but demotivating for many mapmakers.

I wholeheartedly agree, especially since a huge majority of these reviewers seem to have made no published maps themsleves :/

 

[Ironside]

Zombie is of course, right as hell.

I personally feel that map submissions and moderation should be more intensly policed. We arent epicwar, maps shouldent appear until they've been approved as a working non-spam/steal map, reguardless of quality. It would probably be a pain, but the maps have to get reviewed anyway, and having less public spammaps is just a good idea. Just hire like 5 more map mods and give them some kind of monthly review quota or smomthing, idk.

BECAUSE WARCRAFT MODDING AND THE HIVE IS REALLY QUITE YOU KNOW.

5 new map moderators? won't happen.

 

[Zombie]

5 new map moderators? won't happen.

Look at how others elaborated their ideas. You instead said it wouldn't happen without listing reasons or alternatives.

Kinda the behavior which I was discussing in the first post?

 

[Ironside]

No my comments in map section don't contain those described in 1st post.

 

[Zombie]

No my comments in map section don't contain those described in 1st post.

I never said they do? What you posted above stands for the lack of constructive commentary though, which is what I was referring to.

You said something is not good but didn't elaborate on why that is so.

Besides, this is not a trial by forum, it's just a humble note of awareness for some people to notice themselves.

 

[The World Is Flat]

I know plenty of people who could and or would make that happen.

 

[Ironside]

I never said they do? What you posted above stands for the lack of constructive commentary though, which is what I was referring to.

You said something is not good but didn't elaborate on why that is so.

Besides, this is not a trial by forum, it's just a humble note of awareness for some people to notice themselves.

Well the fact remains, that a map that breaks about 3 rules won't be approved, ever.

So my point is that a map should follow all rules, then get a proper review, but that's just my style.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Which is exactly what I was saying, if it doesen't even appear, it won't get the negative spamcomments unless theres a troll.

 

[Deolrin]

I agree completely with everything Zombie mentioned in his post.
In addition, I'd like to point out that Ap0calypse's behavior is not the best either, although I already brought that up in Admin Contact and it seems like the current administration, including Ralle, don't care that much.
Anyways, this quote MUST reach public eyes:

Ahm... Tumbler Rejected? Care to comment on this? Have you even tried it or is it the 2nd time you look at the comment of -kobas- without even taking your time to test it? The map really needs an update but rejecting it is a bit... extreme. And since it's in the "needs fix" section what do you think needs fixing?

My complaint: look at the status before complaining.
This color: temp. rejected (aka "Needs fix").
This color: perm. rejected (aka "Rejected").

Instead of ranting on about your map being permanently rejected, look at the actual status.
It will reset to pending once the map's been updated.

My complaint: look at the status before complaining.
This color: temp. rejected (aka "Needs fix").
This color: perm. rejected (aka "Rejected").

Instead of ranting on about your map being permanently rejected, look at the actual status.
It will reset to pending once the map's been updated.

I DID noticed that and didn't "rant" about it being permanently rejected ->

And since it's in the "needs fix" section ...

And you did not answer my questions.

"rejecting it is a bit... extreme."
Look, it is NOT extreme: it is one of the most commong things on the hive, far more common than approving maps.
And if you look at the pending stats, you can see a "0 pending maps" somewhere, so we basically HAD to moderate your map.
If a map doesn't qualify the current standards, I reject it - leaving it pending wouldn't be productive at all.

Just fix what you think needs fixing, I didn't download your map.

The point is there is nothing to fix and if you have bothered to test it you would know that (everything is working fine and map is fully playable in multiplayer) the only thing that I have in mind by updating it is just adding some skills and items and improving AI [optional].
There are no errors in the game.
So if I understand correct by saying:

Just fix what you think needs fixing, I didn't download your map.

you just put it under "needs fix" without any kind of testing... very unprofessional. That is kind of insulting after the work I put in this!

*sigh*, whatever.
I won't reply anymore.
Not in the mood, go whine at someone else, I'm tired of being whined at.
Unprofessional? Sure, whatever you say! If you knew how it actually worked, then maybe I would've cared.

Notice how ap0calypse behaves towards a generic, average user - and notice how he didn't even test the map.

 

[Ironside]

Well without offense towards anyone, but by the looks of it and by how I know ap0, the map simply had many rules broken probably, and as said before, maps do get rejected just for the fact if several rules are broken, which in my opinion is right.

 

[Deolrin]

You don't flame a user, ignore him and overall act offensive against him just because his map breaks rules.

Besides, ap0calypse didn't state a reason for his rejection, nor did he actually test the map.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Looking at the thread, I have to agree with debode, it doesent even matter if it sucks or not.

 

[Ironside]

Hmm, my guess is that one of the Mini moderators told him to reject it then, as we did in the Map Cleaning Event...

Maybe -Kobas- since he posted a Review...

Though I'm not a Mini Moderator anymore anyway.

 

[Deolrin]

-Kobas- has only pointed out the description sucks, if if I recall correctly. :/

 

[Grey Nightmare]

Well if your not happy with ap0, have you actually talked to him about it?
I can see your point but I don't think you should go to the "administration" as a first resort, we all make mistakes and deserve chances to correct them

 

[Ironside]

Here we go:

Ok I don't know how to say this but I will tell you few things you can like them or not, but thrust me nothing personal about it, just professional!

Ok I saw your map and first thing that I can see is map review, then I think 2 ogres strange name wtf is this! I open map! then I see playable size 32x32 see map category and type, and I think how can this one be good map with only 32x32 but I want to check more, I check map description, damn no colors, tables, video, poor screenshots without description about them, I read few thing about description, then I move mouse pointer to map preview to see terrain, looks ok for this kind of map so I still don't know everything about it, and at the end see this 351.15 KB! Now I know 50% about your map you can thrust me or not!

ok let see.... 351.15 KB means:
you have map preview that means in best way 200 KB
so map has 151.15 KB left
now come imported stuff like Loading Screen dude no room for that, no models no skins no nothing just base blizzard models!
Terrain alone takes 25 KB maybe more
So you use 100 KB for triggers and all else stuff

Dude I don't need to try map, I know that it is bad!

 

[Grey Nightmare]

Meh, as already pointed out, they still deserve a test - whether that's a ten second job or what not - if reviewers don't put an effort in, why should mappers? :/

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Glad someone finally took the time to say something about this.

Just like the CnP witch hunts in the icon section, these people that call themselves "reviewers" are just causing random flaming without actually providing a review, which includes constructive criticism. Many of these people don't actually take the time to review, or even download the map for that sake, and just search through the map section for a map with a sub-par description to find something to complain about and flame the creator. This isn't helpful.

I say if you find a bad map with an equally bad description, tell a mod about it and move on, no need to start being an ass about it. If you find a map that's not the normal "just another wc3 map" affair, but with a bad description, give some advice to improve it and, if your going to "review" a map in the first place, provide some points to improve the map itself on. We don't need a ton of people flaming just to boost their own ego.

1-Without being moderator

You don't have to be a moderator to review a map, many moderators look at useful reviews to influence their own review of the map, or in some cases decide to approve it or not - just because your not a mod doesn't mean your opinion is invalid. But of course, if you don't have anything worth saying, don't say it at all.

 

[Ironside]

@ Grey Nightmare

Well that's not entirely true, since if you look at epicwar, there are few maps which are very good, but never get rated or anything.

The problem here is, that to many maps get uploaded, whom owners don't care what happens to the map.

There was an example just today I read > Quoted the Uploader: "I knew this would get rejected"

@ WherewolfTherewolf

I agree to this, either if a Review is posted or just something about the rules, I do agree that some just flame at the authors without really doing anything.

 

[Deolrin]

Barathrum, by providing Kobas' quote, you just pretty much made my point far more obvious. It is OBVIOUS he didn't test the map. Just read. All he complains about is the size of the map, the filesize, the description and the screenshot as well as a 'weird name'. He didn't even try the map.

 

[Ironside]

Yes that's why I posted it, after reading the map thread, I noticed that you're right about it.

(Sorry for being hard to understand today, I'm messed up)

 

[Zombie]

Oh my God, what did you do to this thread...

Guys, this is not a trial by forum, not meant to point fingers at anyone. Hence, I didn't give you any names or labeled actions, merely trying to ask the community in general to stop something that's not of use to anyone.

Bickering and pushing each other around is NOT its purpose, make your own thread for that.

 

[Deolrin]

Ah, sorry. I assumed this was more like a general thread about the Map Section.

@On-topic: Indeed, the examples Zombie provided and many more should not be a common sight amongst the map section. People should not be flamed just because their map breaks the rules, even if IS bad, and all maps should be tested before they are commented.

 

[Zeron]

just wanted to say...
I agree with debode and zombie...
Even though my opinion doesn't matter.

 

[En_Fuego]

Strongly disagree.

Bad maps are bad.

Good maps are good.

If the uploader can't realize their faults on their own then they shouldn't upload, at least in the extreme cases such as no description, name, terrain, etc. In the quote you guys provided though, he should've at least tested it.

 

[Fussiler1]

YES YES YES YES YES YES.

Finally.

I agree with Zombie.

 

[Darkzealot_128]

The majority of the people who are "map reviewers", or "reviewers" who have been trolling, flaming, and posting unconstructive critisism are mostly just newbies on Hive who exist for the very purpose of flaming or trolling. In nearly every single case where the map has a bad description or the minimap terrain looks bad, it turns out to be rejection-material anyway. I also wouldn't blame some people for checking a map from the outside too because of all the trash being uploaded repetitively (which is driving me mad).

And incase anyone is pointing the finger at me, I don't recall voting for rejection just because of the description or because of how it looks from the outside (sometimes if I actually say it, I don't actually cast the vote) or trolling, but I won't lie some of my reviews were harsh when I was an earlier member (but atleast they didn't have the word 'sucks' in them).

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Even though my opinion doesn't matter.

Why would you say this. It matters as much as that of everyone else.

 

[Ironside]

Well, trolling & flamming does need to be reduced, so I agree with Zombie

 

[Zombie]

Strongly disagree.

Bad maps are bad.

Good maps are good.

If the uploader can't realize their faults on their own then they shouldn't upload, at least in the extreme cases such as no description, name, terrain, etc. In the quote you guys provided though, he should've at least tested it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pull bad maps under my wing, simply noting that the point of constructive criticism is to provide alternatives and help, and that the commentaries shouldn't target the submitter as a person in an offensive manner since that too is against the rules.

Say if I flame someone for trolling, does that give me the right to violate rules just because that person was doing so?

 

[Lich Prince]

I've been trying to say this for a long time, but without starting a huge shitstorm.

I agree with Zombie.

 

[The World Is Flat]

This is one of the many, many underlying problems with the map system as it is.

 

[InfiniteSeven]

Agreed.

I don't really think posting useless comments by people saying that's their review is going to bring about anything good. I mean, criticisms are fine so long as they're constructive and teach the map creator something to (hopefully) improve the quality of their maps. Outright trolling is... well... not helpful or good for anything or anyone.

 

[En_Fuego]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pull bad maps under my wing, simply noting that the point of constructive criticism is to provide alternatives and help, and that the commentaries shouldn't target the submitter as a person in an offensive manner since that too is against the rules.

Say if I flame someone for trolling, does that give me the right to violate rules just because that person was doing so?

Sorry if it didn't come across the way I imagined it did, but to put it very bluntly:

If someone makes a map that is just default terrain, default name, no effort and they upload it, then they deserve to be laid into. I don't think anyone would upload a map like that in their right mind unless they were trolling.

 

[Zeron]

@Imtor well i was just saying since everyone of higher reputation(as in amount of people know them not actual rep) were arguing and i thought to be intense i would just kinda slip a word or two in lol.

@En_Fuego Well if they outright ignored the rules and uploaded a crap-list-taker of a map purposely then maybe. but what i see is a lot of beginners trying to get on there feet and learn. but instead of being encouraged to get better and explain their mistakes they are repetivley screamed at with vulgar remarks and selfish comments. maybe in the good old days(like 1960) people could get yelled at and learn. but today people are too soft and get hurt and trampled to easily by un-thought-through comments. So its everyone responsiblity to head or atleast not be oblivious to the fact that people need help when their starting off and not alot of idiots ranting at them.

 

[Boris_Spider]

The problem with the 'reviewers' is that they stop at the preview. They don't actually take the time to open the map, inspect it, and play it. Then they proceed to insult the users (most of them 1st time uploaders), accuse them of 'trolling', list out everything wrong and demand a fix without even hinting as to what could be done to fix.

The actual map reviewers (not the one this thread is addressed to) play the game, inspect everything, and provide solutions to the problems they spotted. The previewers prefer to insult, ridicule, and provide no constructive criticism. I'm not saying reviewers can't/don't become or act like previewers.

Mostly they consist of users desperate for attention. Threads like this give it to them. Rather than get on their cases (since they could care less), just report their posts and move on.

Ignoring the previewers is the closest thing to a solution you're going to get. After all, this is the internet.

//\\oo//\\

 

[dead-man-walking]

OH HELL YES
Why do people neglect the fact that there is a report button for rule violation, though? That would save time of debating and ranting.

 

[Kwah]

Yes, people are assholes.

Next question?


But in all seriousness, what do you expect to be done about this?

Use the report function where necessary, and beyond that there's not much I can see to do.

 

[Zeron]

Why do people neglect the fact that there is a report button for rule violation, though? That would save time of debating and ranting.

Oh no, no. Haha. That wouldn't stop the argumentative minds of people, or especially the insightful minds of the people here at the hive. No it would only start a new debate somewhere else with some other eritence that might or might not be impossible to solve. Most likely it also wouldn't even solve this problem of ranter and socially insecure people. because they would find ways around the "rules" to insult and ridicule people for no apparent reason. but nice hopeful thinking .

 

[En_Fuego]

Oh no, no. Haha. That wouldn't stop the argumentative minds of people, or especially the insightful minds of the people here at the hive. No it would only start a new debate somewhere else with some other eritence that might or might not be impossible to solve. Most likely it also wouldn't even solve this problem of ranter and socially insecure people. because they would find ways around the "rules" to insult and ridicule people for no apparent reason. but nice hopeful thinking .

what the hell...?

 

[Kwah]

Use the report function. All reports are handled by the staff in a timely manner.

 

[Zeron]

@En Fuego - what the hell to you...
my post was out of place or something?

 

[En_Fuego]

@En Fuego - what the hell to you...
my post was out of place or something?

...it makes no sense at all. when people use the Report button, they're not making posts to insult mapmakers...

adding on, how will people filing a "Report" cause debate somewhere in the Hive? It's a pretty fair system...There's really nothing to complain about it.