Map Section – What would you improve?

[Rui]

Hello.

I have created this thread to gather information on what users think of the Map Section. Not only about its state, but also the way it works, its rules, anything you can think of.

Right now we have 5 resource statuses: Approved, Pending, Rejected_{(until updated)}, Rejected_{(permanently)} and Reviewed_{(has a real review)}.
The names of the first two describe themselves, I believe. Rejected until updated allows the submitter to see the map and update it, but it is not visible to other users. Permanently rejected means the user cannot update the map and it cannot be seen by regular users. Reviewed is for maps formally criticized by the map moderators.

Some important points:

• The map submission rules
• The resource statuses and their behavior
• The mini-moderator position

And anything you wish to say about the Map Section!

 

[TheBlooddancer]

So if i submit a map, and its reviewed and 'not good enough' what would you set it to?

Besides, i would start off with promoting some map moderators.

 

[matyko]

The fact that mini-moding still works, with this system leaves, in my opinion, a margin for, when people are having a bad day, to crack someone's work with no real reason at all...

I think there are multiple easy ways to solve this, eg:
a.) Turning mini-mods off in the Map Section, and getting real map mods, like Blooddancer said so..
b.) Mini-mod rejection doesnt turn the map "invisible" for other users, incase that choice was premature...

This are the first things that come to my mind, but, other then that, I think this system is all nice and neat!

Salute to you, and thanks for helping to make this site better!

 

[FrIkY]

I'm not a real expert in makin' maps... but I think you should promote more Map moderator, for example, Septimus... he's great, and deserves that promotion! ^^

 

[bounty hunter2]

I'm not a real expert in makin' maps... but I think you should promote more Map moderator, for example, Septimus... he's great, and deserves that promotion! ^^

He is a map moderator again =P You need to catch up.

What can be improved? Well I think we do need this: a status for reviewed maps, that have a review but are not rejected or approved, like we had before.

 

[Linaze]

Reinstate mini mods and give them ability to disapprove but not to approve maps.

 

[Septimus]

First priority = Update rules, our rules have too many loopholes at this moment.
Second priority = Clear up pending map, we have too many pending map that are breaking the rules site.
Third priority = Recruit active map moderator.

So if i submit a map, and its reviewed and 'not good enough' what would you set it to?

Besides, i would start off with promoting some map moderators.

That is where it been set to rejected till updated.

He is a map moderator again =P You need to catch up.

What can be improved? Well I think we do need this: a status for reviewed maps, that have a review but are not rejected or approved, like we had before.

Rui order Ralle to have my power remove again.. :=/

 

[Linaze]

Yeah, the Hive really needs an active map moderator.

 

[Hakeem]

Reinstate mini mods and give them ability to disapprove but not to approve maps.

That would really open up the door for:

The fact that mini-moding still works, with this system leaves, in my opinion, a margin for, when people are having a bad day, to crack someone's work with no real reason at all...

Obviously the map mods ignore things like this.

 

[Linaze]

Well, I am talking about the old mini mod system. Where Rui actually hand-picked mini mods, for the map section, anyways.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

And anything you wish to say about the Map Section!

Remove the ability to submit maps not made by you.

 

[Zombie]

We need more moderators. Maybe the members of Rui's mini-jury should become full-time map mods.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Remove the ability to submit maps not made by you.

Fifteen characters, eh?

 

[TheDivineBoss]

I recommend a dictatorship-like system in the map section, with tight rules and good staffmembers.

 

[~Void~]

Jut make more moderators, and base the sorting on how many times it's been voted, so I don't get a map which has been rated 5/5 once when I sort by ratings, and then have to sift through like 8 pages to find a map with a 4.99 rating that's been rated 100 times.

 

[Septimus]

Fix the search system, make it search map with the exact rating. For example, if I am searching a map that are rated 4 by staff; it would show just rating 4 map instead of 4-6.

 

[Pyritie]

Or at least 4.0-4.99.

 

[f0rsAk3n]

Something i dont understand, i cant seem to find any more pending maps, and i just uploaded a map , but cant find it in the maps section...whats up...

 

[bounty hunter2]

Only approved maps can be seen on the front page. Take a look on the left and you will see pending maps.

 

[f0rsAk3n]

Ah okay i got it , thanks
EDIT: we really need more map moderators, i recommend bounty hunter.

 

[Zelda.Alex]

In the maps section change the rating system a bit. Add 2 rating systems--one for the moderators and other for the regular users. then it will be possible to find the rating by the expert map makers and by the regular players separately. I myself found that some maps were rated high but did not have that much quality. knowing the experts ratings might help.
it just might also help the moderators in finding out how the opinion of the general users differ from them regarding a particular map.
it might also help the regular users to see if the ratings that they are giving to a map are near to the experts i.e. it might help in promoting better ratings by the users. when they can see that their ratings differ much from the experts then they might reconsider their ratings.that might promote fairer ratings in the map section.


Regarding the rules of the map section. I think that the newbie's maps should not be disapproved at their first posting and they should be given at least 1 month to improve till their maps can be disapproved. that will definitely help the map makers in gathering more comments and who knows they just might come with a map that may surprise us.

There should be something written along with the mini-moderators showing they are mini-moderators. that will help them ,i think, as some map makers sometimes don't take their comments seriously.

originally by Rui--
"The resource statuses and their behavior"--what does that mean?

 

[TheBlooddancer]

*cough* There is. *cough*

 

[Rui]

I'm in a hurry, I'll try to be brief replying to you guys. Thank you all for your comments, in advance.

So if i submit a map, and its reviewed and 'not good enough' what would you set it to?

Besides, i would start off with promoting some map moderators.

If a map is not good enough, it will be set to the Rejected-until-updated status.

---

As for the map moderators, I'm trying to find decent and active ones. Problem is, they don't pop out of the ground, and I have to get to know people before I can actually assign anyone for the task.

The fact that mini-moding still works, with this system leaves, in my opinion, a margin for, when people are having a bad day, to crack someone's work with no real reason at all...

I think there are multiple easy ways to solve this, eg:
a.) Turning mini-mods off in the Map Section, and getting real map mods, like Blooddancer said so..
b.) Mini-mod rejection doesnt turn the map "invisible" for other users, incase that choice was premature...

This are the first things that come to my mind, but, other then that, I think this system is all nice and neat!

Salute to you, and thanks for helping to make this site better!

You do not need to worry about someone cracking other people's work. The votes are nothing but notes for the map moderators, they can't cause any real damage.

---

(...)
Rui order Ralle to have my power remove again.. :=/

I didn't order Ralle to do anything. This attitude is one of the reasons I don't like having you in.

Before I continue, I wish to remind everyone that this is not a drama thread, so stick to the topic.

---

Well, I am talking about the old mini mod system. Where Rui actually hand-picked mini mods, for the map section, anyways.

The system is basically the same, just that everyone can use it. I don't like it this way. As I said up there, these are just notes, and like I said on another thread, I'm not going to trust the votes/notes of people I do not know.

---

Remove the ability to submit maps not made by you.

This is a debate best kept on the other thread.
A problem that comes to mind right away with that limitation is that the author names do not always match with the website nicknames.

---

In the maps section change the rating system a bit. Add 2 rating systems--one for the moderators and other for the regular users. then it will be possible to find the rating by the expert map makers and by the regular players separately. I myself found that some maps were rated high but did not have that much quality. knowing the experts ratings might help.
it just might also help the moderators in finding out how the opinion of the general users differ from them regarding a particular map.
it might also help the regular users to see if the ratings that they are giving to a map are near to the experts i.e. it might help in promoting better ratings by the users. when they can see that their ratings differ much from the experts then they might reconsider their ratings.that might promote fairer ratings in the map section.

We already have the average user rating and the moderator rating, and the moderator is, supposedly, the ''expert'' that you're referring to.
The experts know well how their opinion differs from those of the regular users. The Hive Workshop is a website that receives a lot of people new to Warcraft, and those people are obviously not qualified to rate a map.
To fix this problem I had planned to make mini-moderators the only ones able to comment and rate on the map section.

Planning to answer later...

Regarding the rules of the map section. I think that the newbie's maps should not be disapproved at their first posting and they should be given at least 1 month to improve till their maps can be disapproved. that will definitely help the map makers in gathering more comments and who knows they just might come with a map that may surprise us.

There should be something written along with the mini-moderators showing they are mini-moderators. that will help them ,i think, as some map makers sometimes don't take their comments seriously.

originally by Rui--
"The resource statuses and their behavior"--what does that mean?

I'm in a hurry, so I'll be going now! Keep posting, people!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

A problem that comes to mind right away with that limitation is that the author names do not always match with the website nicknames.

Then they should offer proof of that. It would be trivial to do if they were, in fact, the original author.

 

[bounty hunter2]

Here are some suggestions:

- Users have to have at least 10 posts before being able to upload (Has been suggested before, but I think it is great.
- Mini-Moderators - Vote for approval - should be changed to: Users - Vote for approval
- Mini-Moderators should be reinstated in this manner: Users who you have chosen to be mini mods - create a new button for us, only for us and if we vote a map you see a ! mark next to it.
- Rating system - change it only to moderator + mini mod rating system
- Better standards: make a rule standard how of a quality map should be, with direct instructions
- Don't allow other users to post maps not created by them, rather use the public resource provider, it is a hell less messy that way
- Recommended maps - Not only the 4/5 but a custom choice by a mod/director
- Same for directors choice
- Comments should have atleast minimum 50 characters, that would reduce the: Great map : spammers

Thats all that came to my mind right now.

 

[f0rsAk3n]

May I ask who is our map moderator at this moment? because there is quite a lot of "Pending" maps...I know bounty hunter have been Reviewing maps.
EDIT: also a suggestion that i have,it would be more appealing if the owner of a thread can change the "Solved" "Ignored" "Unsolved" status,because theres many threads thats solved thats still marked unsolved.

 

[Eccho]

VG's Dos and Don'ts are, in my opinion, a very good guideline for the map submissions. Its actually the best 'tutorial' on mapmaking and reviewing I have seen.

First priority = Update rules, our rules have too many loopholes at this moment.
Second priority = Clear up pending map, we have too many pending map that are breaking the rules site.
Third priority = Recruit active map moderator.

Wouldn't priority three solve the priority two faster?
I agree on the first priority though.

So far the Mini-mod system seems to work (when it was more or less "private" and invited mini-mods only), with the exception that the map moderators usually tests the map as well before it gets approved. Well, maybe quality reviews, like bounty hunter's reviews are should be taken more seriously. Too bad Septimus got his map moderation powers lost though.

Is it possible to create a language checking system? It would really kill all the non-english maps.

- Users have to have at least 10 posts before being able to upload (Has been suggested before, but I think it is great.

I agree. It would demand the uploader to at least have been active doing something, rather than creating the account in the only matter to submit maps like on Epicwar.

- Mini-Moderators - Vote for approval - should be changed to: Users - Vote for approval

That would perhaps be abusable. I am not saying everyone would abuse it, friendapprove etc, but it would probably happend.

- Better standards: make a rule standard how of a quality map should be, with direct instructions

Such as VG's d&ds?

- Don't allow other users to post maps not created by them, rather use the public resource provider, it is a hell less messy that way

Maybe a section where the public resource provider maps will be stored? Hmm, no that would be like a Epicwar section-.-

- Comments should have atleast minimum 50 characters, that would reduce the: Great map : spammers

I think that's a good idea.

 

[bounty hunter2]

@Eccho

That would perhaps be abusable. I am not saying everyone would abuse it, friendapprove etc, but it would probably happend.

Everyone has the power to vote on maps. The mini-mod title makes it look like only some people can. It can't be abusable really, because when a mod does actually check a map it can help him, but he will have top check the map himself in the end.

Such as VG's d&ds?

Unforunatly I do not know the system, but it maybe is what I am talking about =)

 

[Vegavak]

I sure as hell wouldn't reinstate "mini"moderators.

 

[Eccho]

Unforunatly I do not know the system, but it maybe is what I am talking about =)

VG's dos and don'ts is a guide for map makers, what they are to think of when they create the map. Maybe some of the rules could be complementary as map rules.
It is stickied in the map development thread, or a link to it here

Everyone has the power to vote on maps. The mini-mod title makes it look like only some people can. It can't be abusable really, because when a mod does actually check a map it can help him, but he will have top check the map himself in the end.

I just meant, if it would be user-able approvable map system whereas everyone had the influense to approve a map, it would be abusable I misinterprent and didnt read carefully enough what you said.

 

[Zelda.Alex]

Originally by Rui
"To fix this problem I had planned to make mini-moderators the only ones able to comment and rate on the map section."
Does that mean the users can't give any suggestions to the map- makers and can't post any bug reports? If yes then don't you think that the rate at which the bug reports are given and new updates are made to the map section will become too slow?
i can see why you said"The Hive Workshop is a website that receives a lot of people new to Warcraft, and those people are obviously not qualified to rate a map." and i agree to some extent but i just can't imagine why commenting by the average users has to be removed. the comments many times have a lot of suggestions (not by a single user but by all the users which played the map) .
ADDED AFTER EDITING:
Regarding the ratings by the users i had an idea. i think it should be allowed if they have a minimum amount of rep. rep can help in determining if the person knows a minimum knowledge about warcraft so that he/she could now be able to rate maps. The amount of rep you can easily decide by your experience with hive's community.OR a person should be able to rate a map if the user has a minimum number of posts in the particular map. You should also increase the number of alphabet limit which can constitute a post for a map otherwise large number of small posts can overcome the barrier set by the 2nd condition i had told. the present limit if i do remember correctly is 4 characters which is way too short for a proper comment on the map. Any smaller post should be directed towards the map's author's messages. The reason behind the rating being allowed by the users with a particular number of posts in the maps is that if someone had played a map much and now feels that he should give it a rating then if he is not allowed then he will not be able to do so.


Originally by Rui
"We already have the average user rating and the moderator rating...."
can please explain that? average user rating and the moderator rating--where can they be seen ? the only rating that i had been seeing till i joined hive was the rating X/5. are you referring to the review by the moderators?
EDIT: I understood that now. That was a little silly mistake by me.

Regarding the suggestion for the maps of the newbie's. If you don't agree with my suggestion for the 1 month time for disapproval then i can also suggest another thing. see if you think it appropriate. a different category can be made in the maps section. like there are--
"Reviewed Maps
Approved Maps
Pending Maps
Recommended
Director's Cut "
---at the present time in the map section. a new map section called newbie map makers section can be made. this i am suggesting in accordance with a line in hive's welcome message in the news section------"If you are totally new to the game or very skilled, you may either learn and get help or teach others: there is a place reserved here for you!". what i am pointing in this message is the RESERVED used for the new ones.

These 2 are interlinked:
1.....In the maps section is it possible that i can see all the campaigns at one place? I mean if i want to see all the campaigns whether approved,reviewed or else can i see them in one screen? The answer as i had found is no. It should be possible. the search for the maps should be more specific so that the campaigns can be seen in one screen.
if someone clicks
Maps in category : All of type: campaign(125)
then it just shows the reviewed campaigns. A new users just might assume that these are all the campaigns in here and the others might just be ignored by them.
2.....when the extension" campaign" is clicked it should show all the campaigns. if i click campaign first and then the All maps i assumed it would show campaigns of all ratings but it did not.Instead it showed maps of all types i.e. aos, melee etc.
EDIT:I found that i was wrong in saying that all the campaigns cannot be shown at one place. I don't know why but when i had tried to do that yesterday and before i had failed many times but today i could. Sorry for this.

Also when all the campaigns were shown in the same window even then the number of campaigns were nearly 60-70. i know that the others are the rejected maps but then change it to the exact number of campaigns which can be seen by the average users.

EDIT:
Originally by rui
".....and the moderator is, supposedly, the ''expert'' that you're referring to."
yes i did mean the moderators by that.

"Users have to have at least 10 posts before being able to upload"--- i also agree with this.

Originally by Septimus
"First priority = Update rules, our rules have too many loopholes at this moment.
Second priority = Clear up pending map, we have too many pending map that are breaking the rules site.
Third priority = Recruit active map moderator."
I think that the third priority as listed by septimus should be made the first priority. that will save the others by much extent.

"Magic Forest Version 1.5"---that is a german map. But Hive is a english only site as is written in the rules section then what it has director's cut for? there are some other maps also(not really that highly rated). These maps be reconsidered?

Improve the search engine. It does not give proper results.

 

[Septimus]

User only allowed to submit 1 map every 48 hours.. considering that usually less than 48 hour are likely to be multiple upload.

 

[bounty hunter2]

Another suggestion:

- > When posting a grade, a comment box should appear: Explain your rating, and you have to give 50 characters max, and then the map creator could see this little comments?

- > Make a script that checks the variety of letters to prevent aaaaaaaaaa spamers

 

[Rui]

Here are some suggestions:

- Users have to have at least 10 posts before being able to upload (Has been suggested before, but I think it is great.
- Mini-Moderators - Vote for approval - should be changed to: Users - Vote for approval
- Mini-Moderators should be reinstated in this manner: Users who you have chosen to be mini mods - create a new button for us, only for us and if we vote a map you see a ! mark next to it.
- Rating system - change it only to moderator + mini mod rating system
- Better standards: make a rule standard how of a quality map should be, with direct instructions
- Don't allow other users to post maps not created by them, rather use the public resource provider, it is a hell less messy that way
- Recommended maps - Not only the 4/5 but a custom choice by a mod/director
- Same for directors choice
- Comments should have atleast minimum 50 characters, that would reduce the: Great map : spammers

Thats all that came to my mind right now.

Post count and reputation conditions favor spam and rep parties. I don't like the idea of having post count associated with the permission to upload resources.
A quality standard board is a good idea, but concretely I'm not sure how that would work. Perhaps you would like to start it, and tell us exactly how you'd put it out?

---

May I ask who is our map moderator at this moment? because there is quite a lot of "Pending" maps...I know bounty hunter have been Reviewing maps.
EDIT: also a suggestion that i have,it would be more appealing if the owner of a thread can change the "Solved" "Ignored" "Unsolved" status,because theres many threads thats solved thats still marked unsolved.

There are no map moderators at the moment.
What do you mean with the second paragraph? If you're talking about the Map Resource Moderation forum, then I don't think it is a good idea.

---

Does that mean the users can't give any suggestions to the map- makers and can't post any bug reports? If yes then don't you think that the rate at which the bug reports are given and new updates are made to the map section will become too slow?
i can see why you said"The Hive Workshop is a website that receives a lot of people new to Warcraft, and those people are obviously not qualified to rate a map." and i agree to some extent but i just can't imagine why commenting by the average users has to be removed. the comments many times have a lot of suggestions (not by a single user but by all the users which played the map) .

That's a con I did not think about, good observation. It appears a minimum character limit, as bounty hunter2 suggested, is the best option. What do you think?

(...) i think it should be allowed if they have a minimum amount of rep. rep can help in determining if the person knows a minimum knowledge about warcraft so that he/she could now be able to rate maps. (...)

Like I responded to bounty hunter2, the idea of using reputation as a condition was dissuaded because it would associate it with something that actually matters.

Regarding the suggestion for the maps of the newbie's. If you don't agree with my suggestion for the 1 month time for disapproval then i can also suggest another thing. see if you think it appropriate. a different category can be made in the maps section. like there are--
"Reviewed Maps
Approved Maps
Pending Maps
Recommended
Director's Cut "
---at the present time in the map section. a new map section called newbie map makers section can be made. this i am suggesting in accordance with a line in hive's welcome message in the news section------"If you are totally new to the game or very skilled, you may either learn and get help or teach others: there is a place reserved here for you!". what i am pointing in this message is the RESERVED used for the new ones.

I don't like the idea, specially the "secondary map section". A single map section is enough, we just have to work with the tools we have. I recommend the newbies use the Map Development forum instead. Even though I don't review the newest maps too early exactly because they need to receive the first waves of feedback.

---

- > Make a script that checks the variety of letters to prevent aaaaaaaaaa spamers

I don't think that is necessary. The comment will most likely be spotted and reported.

 

[Zelda.Alex]

originally by Rui
"It appears a minimum character limit, as bounty hunter2 suggested, is the best option. What do you think?"
I think that is a good option. Setting a minimum character limit will certainly make the raters explain their ratings. If that character limit is imposed do make sure that those comments should be viewable by the moderators so anyone who thinks that he can get over the character limit by just writing rubbish pay for that.
EDIT:
I just thought that the 50 word limit can become a problem for short cinematic. The moderators might be able to put 50 words over the rate message but some of others , even though they saw it with a critiques' eyes, might not be able to reach the limit. For that a 30 word limit will be much more appropriate.

"Like I responded to bounty hunter2, the idea of using reputation as a condition was dissuaded because it would associate it with something that actually matters."
i did not think over it like that. seeing it that way i think that what i suggested was a bad idea. It had an additional limitation also which just occurred to me. Users who want to rate a map can just rep each other and thus goes away that barrier.

originally by Rui--
"The resource statuses and their behavior"--what does that mean?

 

[bounty hunter2]

@ Rui, here is something I thought up with, for simple map quality guidance:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Map quality guidance

Required

1. Bug free
2. Terrain
3. Scripting
4. Object Editor Work
5. Fun factor
6. Submission

Optional

1. Map Size
2. Lag
3. Idea/Originality
4. Loading Screen/Minimap Image
5. Imports

Required ---------->

1. Bug Free
Status: Required
Percent: 90%
Guidelines:
* Your map has to be 90% bug free before submitting
* Your map may not contain infinite loops that cause warcraft crash
* Your map must have proper victory/defeat conditions
* Your map must be fully playable till the end
* Your map may not contain unit stucks/ Units may not stuck at any point in the map
* Your map may not contain cheats of any kind
* Your map may not contain fatal bugs such as: Multiboard/Leadearboard malfunctions, Spell malfunctions, Unit malfunctions
* Your map may contain minor bugs, that don't affect the gameplay at all, such as animation malfunctions

2. Terrain
Status: Required
Percent: 50%
Guidelines:
* Your map has to have atleast 50% of the imagined "perfect terrain"
* Your map may not contain unnecesary empty spacing, unless your map is a Demo
* Your map may not contain flat, empty terrain, no matter what kind of a map that is. (This isn't required in explanation maps and System maps, however it is appreciated even there.)
* Look onto Blizzard terrains: Your map should have atleast a terrain that is half as good as in Blizzards melees or campaigns, that is what is considered a 50% terrain
* Your map should contain enough dodoad/building variety considering what type of map is it
* Your map should contain at least three or four different tilesets, varying tilesets is a important thing

3. Scripting
Status: Required
Percent: 60%
Guidelines:
* Your map has to have atleast 60% of the imagined "perfect scripting"
* Your map may not contain fatal GUI leaks. Read about it here: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/f269/things-leak-35124/
* Your map should not contain unnecesary trigger work, if you have three triggers and you could fit it in one, that is highly not acceptable
* Your map should contain enough trigger work, meaning that a map that has a couple of simple triggers that anyone can do is highly unaceptable
* Your map should contain at least 20 triggers, that work fine, considering the map type
* Triggers that cause errors, or aren't used in the map at all should be deleted
* Look up to our member Septimus, as he makes good non leakable GUI, and take him as your example

4. Object Editor Work
Status: Required
Percent: 80%
Guidelines:
* Your map has to have atleast 80% of the imagined "perfect object editor work"
* Your map may not contain invalid hotkeys
* Your map has to contain hotkeys for spells atleast
* Your map has to have proper and valid descriptions of units, heroes, abilities and upgrades
* All of them have to be fully written in English
* Your map has to contain proper pathing sizes for units and objects
* Your objects have to have a proper collision size, so that units can't pass through them

5. Fun Factor
Status: Required
Percent: 50%
Guidelines:
* Your map has to have atleast 50% of the imagined "perfect fun factor"
* Your map must be fully playable till the end
* Your map has to have enough fan factor increasers:

- Systems (Camera, inventory...)
- Story (Good story enhances the gameplay a lot.)
- Originality (A good idea does the same.)
- Terrain (Terrain is also a important factor, read about it more above.)
- Spells (Custom spells are a great addition to the gameplay.)
- Custom buildings/units (They do the same as spells.)
- Inovative JASS (With JASS you can create anything, so try it.)

6. Submission
Status: Required
Percent: 50%
Guidelines:
* Your map has to have atleast 50% of the imagined "perfect submission"
* Your submission MUST include all of the imports creators user names
* Your submission should include enough info about the map
* Your submission should include changelog
* Your submission should include images
* Example of perfect submission: Diablo III Beta v1.11 - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site


Optional ---------->


1. Map Size
Status: Optional
Percent: 0-100%
Guidelines:
* Your map should not have more than 2MB for a multiplayer AoE, Defense, Arena type map
* Your map should not have more than 5MB for a multiplayer RPG, ORPG
* Your map should not have more then 20MB for a campaign
* Your map should not have more than 3MB for a singleplayer RPG
* Your map should not have more than 1.5MB for any regular singleplayer map

2. Lag
Status: Optional
Percent: 0-100%
Guidelines:
* Your map should not have more than a 20 second loading time for an average computer 4 years old
* Your map should not have any critical lag, beside the initilization lag
* Decrease the lag by clearing leaks (Mentioned above.)
* Your maps Lag shouldn't increase more then 15% after spending an hour playing it

3. Idea/Originality
Status: Optional
Percent: 0-100%
Guidelines:
* Your map should have custom made systems, never before seen
* Your map should have a good, solid story
* Your map should have a decent play idea, whatever type of map you are making you should implement a bit of your own in the gameplay
* Your map should have imports (Will mention more about this later.)

4. Loading Screen/Minimap Image
Status: Optional
Percent: 0-100%
Guidelines:
* Your map should have a minimap image: Always
* This things are easy to make, remember people DO judge books by the covers
* Your map should have a loading screen if it is a:

- Single player RPG
- Campaign
- Any single player map

5. Imports
Status: Optional
Percent: 0-100%
Guidelines:
* Your map should have custom models/skins/icons/effects
* The size shouldn't go to high (Check more about it above.)
* The imports are to be credited properly


Conclusion: Your map should have all of the required fields percentages, Bug Free and Scripting being the most important. Any of the optional fields are always welcome and they make the experience of playing a map even better. Recheck your map to be sure you have done all of the required fields work properly before submitting it a THW.

Note: Ofcourse all fields don't apply to certain types of maps, scripting cannot be implemented in meele maps, this is just a general view for any possible type of map too look onto.

Created by bounty hunter2 on 11th. Feb. 2009. Last edited 11th. Feb. 2009

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So this is what I come up with, I shall consider updating it soon, any opinion and suggestion and critics im more then welcome. Thanks

 

[Gilles]

Then they should offer proof of that. It would be trivial to do if they were, in fact, the original author.

Why not innocent until proven guilty? Trust people to upload only their own maps, and if someone can prove that a map was uploaded without permission, we remove it and punish them.

 

[Vizel]

bounty hunter's idea

I think Bounty Hunter's Idea is, in theory, a good one. However, I think there are a few fatal flaws with this:

1. Bugs for instance are one of the main reasons for submitting the maps in the first place - to FIND them by having a place for users to explain them.
   
2. Terraining can be very rough to new mapmakers (Like myself, though I would like to say I specialize in terraining above all else besides ideas!), and these specifications seem a little "guru" for the beginners.
   
3. The Scripting, Object Editor, and Fun-factor sections are also EXTREMELY rough on new mapmakers. It may dissuade anyone with a new idea to post it, or even to begin the project at all.
   
4. Submission I completely agree with. There should always be a description, changelog is viable, and especially credits. Perhaps by placing some sort of clear and concise guidelines when submitting will help (I have yet to submit a map, so if there is clear, concise guidelines, please disregard this comment) it's not that difficult to follow a simple template.

These specifications seem way out of proportion. I may completely misunderstand the way this site works, I only joined a short while ago, but the reason I joined was to receive help on stuff I can't do, confirm/deny the practicality of ideas, and to help beta test my map. Testing a map is like Proofreading: You can never catch everything. If you could, there'd be no reason for beta-testing.

Perhaps if there was multiple levels of submissions such as:

Level 1: The Beta Submissions - which may or may not be according to any sort of specifications like bounty hunter's though won't be removed or the like for not being up to those standards. This is to help with the general testing of the map to help get rid of bugs and the like. (Though they SHOULD be submitted right!)

All maps will need to go through this phase. But they may be updated regardless of being beta maps or not.

Level 2: The Copper Standard - basically the "Minimum Requirements" sort of map which meets a rather lax set of specifications such as:

Very Few to No major bugs Something like a door not opening so you cannot get something important, but you are still able to complete the game.

Logical Terrain Such as not having snow in the desert, unless having a reason regarding storyline or something of that sort

Smooth Gameplay Not having to backtrack constantly to get something you didn't know about before that you need to continue the game (Unless its for the Storyline)​

This will ensure that maps have gone through at least some beta testing and aren't a total piece of crap that you can't even play, but will allow maps by some beginners to still be brought to the general population.

Level 3: The Silver Standard - Basically the maps that are the average or something like that. Specifications are a bit more strict than that of Copper.

This will probably make up the general population of maps, and the specifications should reflect this.

Level 4: The Gold Standard - Basically those maps that are through the roof. Those people that have gone way beyond the norm to produce something completely original and unheard of. This should have very strict standards such as bounty hunter's standards previously listed. Very "guru-like"

These will be the "Best of the best" kinds of maps. The kinds that are rated 4.99 after 100 votes.

Anyway, the main thing here is that all of the specifications must be of a strictly technical level. Specifications like "Fun-level" can be skewed if people don't like that style of map. For instance, if I was to rate an AoS based on Fun Level, its rating would be horrible because I absolutely despise AoS maps.

Furthermore, there should be a set list of specifications that the Moderators ALL follow to rate the maps. This ensures fair and equal rating across the board.

In addition, to receive a "promotion" in the levels, you may have to post on a specific board for your map to be reviewed by a Moderator (Or perhaps more than one?), and if found satisfactory, then it could be promoted and Moderator Vote may be cast, perhaps?

This is the idea I have come up with. I sincerely apologize for the immense amount of text, but I wanted to get as much detail as possible.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

1. Number of able moderators.
2. divide it into different sections, since the player filter doesnt seem to really work.
-single player
-few(for a lack of a better word) players [2-6]
-multiple players [7-12]

 

[bounty hunter2]

@ Vizel

1. Issue: Harshness
There is the map development forum, and people should post their early betas/alphas there. Newbs shouldn't upload first pieces of work as it will get rejects, I repeat again there is a forum for any project map that has started.

2. Issue: I find your idea, well interesting but it is basically the rating of a map translated into words, 2/5, 3/5 etc.

 

[Vizel]

@ bounty hunter2

As I said, I am new here, so I don't know how everything works yet, I was just throwing out my ideas.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, the main thing I think would be nice is a set template for the Moderator(s) to base their reviews on. As far as I've seen so far, there's 20 varying forms of reviews floating around that basically say the same thing. Makes noticing any sort of standard difficult at best.

Also, if they were to attach some sort of comment to their vote explaining the review so the author can see...I've seen some people do this, but not all.

Just my two cents.

 

[Septimus]

Why not just make a icon award for those map. :=/

 

[Zelda.Alex]

Regarding Bounty Hunter's ideas

The things on which i disagree with bounty hunter2 :
1......"Your map has to be 90% bug free before submitting "-----that way you are just taking out at least 90% of the site's maps. there are bugs even in many of the experts' maps sometimes. There are minor bugs sometimes in the maps which nobody bothered about. and many map-makers submit their maps on Hive so that it can be fully checked. For major bugs i agree with you.
2......"Your map may not contain cheats of any kind'------not all of hive's community members belong to serious map playing group. many just want to have fun so they need cheats. I think that map-maker should be allowed to make that choice.
3....."Your map has to have at least 50% of the imagined "perfect terrain"-----that way you are taking out most of the newbie map makers. Terrain can be improved after getting suggestions and criticism from the Hive members. Lack of good terrain can make scene bad but if a map got good game play then the lack of terrain doesn't make the map too bad.
4....."Look onto Blizzard terrains: Your map should have at least a terrain that is half as good as in Blizzards melees or campaigns, that is what is considered a 50% terrain"------you are kidding aren't you? Asking the new map makers to go on that standard is a very bad idea. Blizzard's terrain are made by experts. How do you hope for that?
5....."Your map should contain enough trigger work, meaning that a map that has a couple of simple triggers that anyone can do is highly unacceptable"-----what do you that simple triggers are unacceptable. Specialization in triggering isn't a true prerequisite for making map making. Is it?
6....."Your map should contain at least 20 triggers, that work fine, considering the map type'-----what about the demo maps?
7....."Your map may not contain invalid hotkeys"-----that sometimes happens even with the experts. It is just a matter of overlooking sometimes. that shouldn't be made a prerequisite.
8.....Regarding the fun factor i agree on most. But does making everything custom really makes a map a good one? Also there are many survival, castle defense maps etc. which don't have storyline much. Do you want to disallow all of these to be present on Hive?

Other things for bounty hunter2
1.....you have used "perfect........" in all of your required points. Care to answer how do you hope all of the map makers what the perfect is? you have placed examples too but placing in a post what these perfects are would be much better. It would explain a lot of unexplained things in your post.
2.....Please try to explain how will the new map makers calculate the percentages before submitting maps?
3....."Your map should not have more then 20MB for a campaign" -----kidding? check the best campaign of Hive "the Chosen Ones".

So to conclude many of the ideas which have been put are quite nice and will definitely help but some seem to be going off the board.

 

[Septimus]

1......"Your map has to be 90% bug free before submitting "-----that way you are just taking out at least 90% of the site's maps. there are bugs even in many of the experts' maps sometimes. There are minor bugs sometimes in the maps which nobody bothered about. and many map-makers submit their maps on Hive so that it can be fully checked. For major bugs i agree with you.

About bug, it definitely a must for the map not to crash/fatal error and minor bug such as hotkey or missing icon are acceptable as long as there isn't too many of it.

2......"Your map may not contain cheats of any kind'------not all of hive's community members belong to serious map playing group. many just want to have fun so they need cheats. I think that map-maker should be allowed to make that choice.

A map should never contain a cheat that could be exploit. So, you are assuming that a map maker could add a cheat according to their way even though the map genre was AOS or TD? This would naturally kill the joy/fun of the map.

3....."Your map has to have at least 50% of the imagined "perfect terrain"-----that way you are taking out most of the newbie map makers. Terrain can be improved after getting suggestions and criticism from the Hive members. Lack of good terrain can make scene bad but if a map got good game play then the lack of terrain doesn't make the map too bad.

I agree with bounty hunter regarding the terrain. However, map with genre of Tower Defense, Maze or Others should be given exception about it's look.

4....."Look onto Blizzard terrains: Your map should have at least a terrain that is half as good as in Blizzards melees or campaigns, that is what is considered a 50% terrain"------you are kidding aren't you? Asking the new map makers to go on that standard is a very bad idea. Blizzard's terrain are made by experts. How do you hope for that?

Being a new mapper doesn't give any excuse, that is where we separate a dedicated new mapper and a lazy new mapper.

5....."Your map should contain enough trigger work, meaning that a map that has a couple of simple triggers that anyone can do is highly unacceptable"-----what do you that simple triggers are unacceptable. Specialization in triggering isn't a true prerequisite for making map making. Is it?

I believe he refer to optimize coding.

7....."Your map may not contain invalid hotkeys"-----that sometimes happens even with the experts. It is just a matter of overlooking sometimes. that shouldn't be made a prerequisite.

If they ever bother to be careful with how they set the object editor, there is no way they could have set a wrong/malfunction hotkey.

To bounty hunter2 : Fun Factor should never be require, but rather an optional cause different staff might have different taste in a map genre.

 

[bounty hunter2]

@ Zelda and Septimus I am reading through your replies and I am considering updates, I don't feel for writing a full response so I'l just update the guide and mention what I updated.

Thanks

Edit, I'l rather answer you:

1. I haven't quite defined what perfect means, it is just something I imagined, and I made this in a rush so I will probably change it.

2. Cheats are a clear no. If people want to have fun they should submit maps at Epic War the partner of THW. Sorry

3. Blizzards terrain are genneraly fine, but not that good as you speak of them. Asking to make it half as good shouldn't be a problem. Lack of terrain doesn't make a map bad, but you need to have atleast passable terrain.

5. This is a guideline for the ultimate newbs. I have seen a lot of maps that have one trigger, that is a game message: "Go and kill" or anything like that. So this should prevent them from submitting.

6. As you know this is a still work in progress guide/whatever and I haven't thought on everything. However I do think that a demo should have enough of them as well.

7. Once again, this is just a part of the object editor work, of course you can have 1,2 or 3 malfunction hotkeys out of 100 but I saw a lot of maps that don't have hotkeys at all or are all messed up.

8. And once again you don't have to have all of the prequisits for the map to be submitted, this are guidelines on how to make your map better before submitting and checking does your map have everything that is truly needed.

Thanks Zelda.Alex on your response.

 

[PurplePoot]

bounty

* Your map has to have atleast 50% of the imagined "perfect fun factor"
* Your map must be fully playable till the end
* Your map has to have enough fan factor increasers:

- Systems (Camera, inventory...)
- Story (Good story enhances the gameplay a lot.)
- Originality (A good idea does the same.)
- Terrain (Terrain is also a important factor, read about it more above.)
- Spells (Custom spells are a great addition to the gameplay.)
- Custom buildings/units (They do the same as spells.)
- Inovative JASS (With JASS you can create anything, so try it.)

Play Hungry Hungry Felhounds (the original versions by TheZizz) or Poke the Angry Ogre some time. Also, fun is completely subjective.

* Your map may not contain fatal bugs such as: Multiboard/Leadearboard malfunctions, Spell malfunctions, Unit malfunctions

How is a board malfunction fatal? It's minor at best.

* Your map has to have atleast 60% of the imagined "perfect scripting"
* Your map may not contain fatal GUI leaks. Read about it here: Things That Leak
* Your map should not contain unnecesary trigger work, if you have three triggers and you could fit it in one, that is highly not acceptable
* Your map should contain enough trigger work, meaning that a map that has a couple of simple triggers that anyone can do is highly unaceptable
* Your map should contain at least 20 triggers, that work fine, considering the map type
* Triggers that cause errors, or aren't used in the map at all should be deleted
* Look up to our member Septimus, as he makes good non leakable GUI, and take him as your example

To use a different example from HHF or Poke the Angry Ogre (which are both excellent examples here as well), I'm currently working on a highly complex map which only has 6 triggers in it, and yet still has more "ideal complexity" (or whatever you are looking for) than most.

--

So we are allowed to have leaks if we use Jass, just not with GUI?

--

This "perfect X factor" is rather silly; it has no grounds in reality.

* Your map has to have atleast 50% of the imagined "perfect terrain"
* Your map may not contain unnecesary empty spacing, unless your map is a Demo
* Your map may not contain flat, empty terrain, no matter what kind of a map that is. (This isn't required in explanation maps and System maps, however it is appreciated even there.)
* Look onto Blizzard terrains: Your map should have atleast a terrain that is half as good as in Blizzards melees or campaigns, that is what is considered a 50% terrain
* Your map should contain enough dodoad/building variety considering what type of map is it
* Your map should contain at least three or four different tilesets, varying tilesets is a important thing

Let's reference HHF or Poke the Angry Ogre here as well for good measure. Neither have great terrain. Both are highly entertaining. In neither does the terrain matter.

* Your map has to have atleast 80% of the imagined "perfect object editor work"
* Your map may not contain invalid hotkeys
* Your map has to contain hotkeys for spells atleast
* Your map has to have proper and valid descriptions of units, heroes, abilities and upgrades
* All of them have to be fully written in English
* Your map has to contain proper pathing sizes for units and objects
* Your objects have to have a proper collision size, so that units can't pass through them

Many maps use such values for good reason. The only part here that I can even come close to agreeing with is the "English only" rule.

* Your map has to have atleast 50% of the imagined "perfect submission"
* Your submission MUST include all of the imports creators user names
* Your submission should include enough info about the map
* Your submission should include changelog
* Your submission should include images

This sounds like Map Dev, not the Maps Section. As for credits, having them ingame is fine...

2. Cheats are a clear no. If people want to have fun they should submit maps at Epic War the partner of THW. Sorry

It's their map... I personally think they're stupid, but it's the maker's own business.

--

Not even going to go into the optional stuff...

Now, on topic --

Wc3search system anyone? Let's face it, this is a more general site, so you need to be able to accommodate large amounts of submissions. However, you can't possibly moderate all those submissions up to speed. Just let people freely submit, and have moderators sift through maps at their pace - if one clearly violates the rules (such as porn etc), then it can be reported quickly by a user and dealt with efficiently.

 

[Rui]

I say we try to straighten up this system, and if after all attempts it won't work, we go back to the wc3search system. I'll propose a new reviewing system then.

Thank you all for your contributions! Especially PurplePoot, since I can't be as convincing.
Keep posting, please!

 

[Linaze]

I'd have nothing against a wc3s system, seeing as we have few other options left. However, that should only and just be for the maps section, let's keep the other sections moderated, imo.

 

[PurplePoot]

Wc3s was moderated, just not queued.

 

[Linaze]

Well, that is kind of what I mean. Sorry for bad explanation above.