Forsaken V1.11

[Argos]

Horray, approved!

 

[kakuzu]

Finaly aproved , thank to the new moderator

 

[Wa666r]

Wooo! Finally got approved Thanks, StoPCampinGn00b!
Also, do you know if you can remove polls that are completed? Such as this map's.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Wooo! Finally got approved Thanks, StoPCampinGn00b!
Also, do you know if you can remove polls that are completed? Such as this map's.

No problem.

I see no moderator option to remove it.

 

[Wa666r]

Ah. There's no way for me to remove it either. Seems like an option that should be available.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Ah. There's no way for me to remove it either. Seems like an option that should be available.

There probably is, but I don't have full moderator powers yet :S

 

[kakuzu]

Also , can you aprove Wa666r Worgen map ? It is really nice and this guy is very devotated in making altered melee maps

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Also , can you aprove Wa666r Worgen map ? It is really nice and this guy is very devotated in making altered melee maps

I know he is, but other maps have been waiting for months aswell. Perhaps someother day.

 

[Wa666r]

Yea, there's around 60 maps that are backed up in the pending menu. That's a lot of reviewing. Good luck.

 

[Bloody Wolf]

Ooooooooooooooooooh its here baby

 

[Engkanto]

some units looks too powerful model-wise for their tier, some units are not lore-wise correct, also some models are not fit for the unit and the warcraft theme,

other than that, it's great

3/5

 

[Wa666r]

some units looks too powerful model-wise for their tier, some units are not lore-wise correct, also some models are not fit for the unit and the warcraft theme,

other than that, it's great

3/5

Care to elaborate? Which units specifically.

 

[Engkanto]

Care to elaborate? Which units specifically.

Long Post with Images

Model-wise review
Okay, Let's start with your first Tier units

First Tier Units Of All Races

Now Compare the models of first tier units. First Tier units are essentially the basic troops for your infantry. In an army they do not necessarily need espensive armor, they are more on mass numbers. I mean, your first tier units cost around 150 gold, and they look like a boss level character, or the last tier units. Remember that these are small units, and their armor intricacy are barely even noticed. These first level characters should not look that intricate, i mean sure it's a nice eyecandy, but it just isn't right. The Phantom looks too bad ass to be the soul of a worker. Also changing them into simpler models reduces mapsize and space.

Heroes Of All Races

sorry for the tool palette, i sorta opened your map without permission

Let's move on to heroes, though i completely understand that you want your heroes too look as bad ass as possible, sometimes they look a bit overdone and they look like bosses instead of heroes. the only hero in your list that blends in well was the black Hunter. Maybe even the Scourge. Just look at how the Exterminator kicks ass, but doesn't blend well.
(stupid high quality models that are actually very good but don't blend well with other models) Why not use the Grand Apothecary model.

Mishaps

Also sorry, but these are just plain wrong model choices. The bone walker, is a shambling mishap of comedy. It blends well yes, but it just looks plain funny. Sorry to the model maker. The spymaster looks cool, I just dont like the usage of texture in it and it has weird proportions. again sorry to the maker. Lastly, The Deathguard I just cannot understand the death guard. It still looks like a tauren with a face mask to me. it doesn't look undead, only creepy. Some parts of their texture just dont blend well. The Gorgon's name just doesn't make sense with the model, i mean sure it has a petrifying ability, but that just isn't enough.

Remember, choose your models wisely as whole and not because his one model looks bad ass.

Lore-wise review
(if you dont wanna stick to lore skip this part)
(if you wanna be creative skip this part),

Deathguards

First of all, the basic infantry of the forsaken are the deathguards
They look like zombies with special uniforms.
DEATHGUARDS

Geist

A geist, kinda looks like a ghoul in WoW lore
GEIST

Look for Ideas and Inspiration in the Official Lore
The Forsaken Army

Side Notes

I know there are limited models to choose from, but i am sure there are better models to play for certain roles.

These are all just suggestions, you may or may not take these into cconsideration. Most of these are my opinions and reviews. In the end the changes will always be your choice.

 

[Dreadwing]

Good Map

Good map, I had fun with this.
Also, where did you get model that you used to be Geist? Thats model and Icon is freaking cool!

And I have a suggestion,
Maybe use and combine This Death knight model (http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=94384) with Death knight skin on http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/map-development-202/scars-conflict-resource-pack-168307/ for Scourge Hero.

Also in http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/map-development-202/scars-conflict-resource-pack-168307/ / http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/scars-conflict-681/resource-pack-version-1-6-a-195143/ have some resource that (maybe) useful for your map. (Like Skin for Sorceress for your High elf map or something)

4/5

 

[Zerglol]

Maybe you can use this model for the Deathguard : http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/forsaken-deathgaurd-48692/

 

[Wa666r]

I agree that the heroes look like bosses, but they are. Just as all the heroes basically are in WC3.

I am not seeing what you see in the "mishaps." All the models seem to compliment each other, while still looking appealing to the eye.

 

[Jargalhurts]

Can't you just combine all these separate race maps into a singular map with all of them? If they're all polished like all the other users seem to say, doesn't it make more sense to have them all available in a single download instead of this inconvenience?

 

[Wa666r]

Can't you just combine all these separate race maps into a singular map with all of them? If they're all polished like all the other users seem to say, doesn't it make more sense to have them all available in a single download instead of this inconvenience?

A maps file limit is 8 MB. There is no way to combine all the factions into one map without going over the limit.

 

[Eltilas]

Got good impression from the map. One of the best altered melee maps I played.
Only Bone walker's fueled rage ability looked rather weird, cause I rather heal my warrior at 40% hp or leave battlefield if much warriors at that hp level. And its difficult to figure what is Gorgon's Petrify useful for. Only air units, as i remember, those can not be surrounded, and only enemy units, so cant save by just in time usage (imagine: Mountain king casts Storm bolt and Gorgon saves the warrior by casting Petrify!).

 

[sarumanthecursed]

Can't you just combine all these separate race maps into a singular map with all of them? If they're all polished like all the other users seem to say, doesn't it make more sense to have them all available in a single download instead of this inconvenience?

A maps file limit is 8 MB. There is no way to combine all the factions into one map without going over the limit

But there are ways to bypass that and play online such as http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/tools-560/warcraft-iii-bypass-map-file-size-limit-ver-4-a-259571/
plus it would be so FREAKING AWESOME! To have all your incredible races clash against each other: Forsaken vs Scarlet crusade, Fel Horde vs Lost Ones, etc...
it would be insanely awesome

 

[stein123]

Map is awesome!!, nice factions *-*

 

[stein123]

can i pm you? i made a wishlist with some models i'd love to see in this map *///*

 

[Moises08x]

super

 

[Dancing Mad]

What is the logic behind not using the actual Sylvana's model but instead a remodeled Priestess of the Moon?

 

[Wa666r]

What is the logic behind not using the actual Sylvana's model but instead a remodeled Priestess of the Moon?

Because Sylvanes is the ruler of the faction, I would make her more powerful than any other hero. And, assuming more than 1 player is playing as the forsaken, I dont want 3 or 4 Sylvanes running around.

 

[master Gul'dan]

When the heroes are killed when they are gone, they will appear again, but your whole map is good. You can fix this with a custom script.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Ah, so this is Update v1.1?

 

[Wa666r]

Ah, so this is Update v1.1?

That's what it says, my dude.

 

[Kyrbi0]

See I posted that because I didn't see anything about the original upload in the changelog..., and while it was posting I saw the changed title of the whole Bundle. Lol.

Thoughts forthcoming...

 

[Wa666r]

See I posted that because I didn't see anything about the original upload in the changelog..., and while it was posting I saw the changed title of the whole Bundle. Lol.

Thoughts forthcoming...

The original title should've been V.1 I guess.

"Thoughts forthcoming..." Oh? The great Kyrbi0 going to roast me? XD

 

[Kyrbi0]

Nawww. I was planning on "lite-reviewing" the race & echoing some of the comments found here already. But now there's a substantial update, I gotta try that first before commenting.

(Actually, I think I had planned on commenting months years a long time ago, with the initial upload, buuuuuut x/.......)

 

[Wa666r]

Nawww. I was planning on "lite-reviewing" the race & echoing some of the comments found here already. But now there's a substantial update, I gotta try that first before commenting.

(Actually, I think I had planned on commenting months years a long time ago, with the initial upload, buuuuuut x/.......)

Hmmmm perhaps it'll be reviewed when your Jungle Trolls get released.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Hmmmm perhaps it'll be reviewed when your Jungle Trolls get released.

*Actual sobbing*

 

[Kyrbi0]

~~~Important Enough for a Double Post Boiiiii~~~

Alright, so the other day I thought to myself "kyrbi0 you oughta do something instead of just filing everything away for a 'later' which never comes...", so I convinced myself to sit down & crack this open. Pretty quickly I decided I was just gonna go through it & correct spelling/grammar... And two days/several hours later, here we are. x/

This is what I'd like to do for everyone, but the reality is I barely do it for anyone anymore. So don't expect me to jump around to the others. But I hope this helps; I was nearly (if not 100%) exhaustive in looking at stuff.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just as a note, I'm organizing this into "spelling/grammar/style", "plus" (meaning "what I liked"), "delta" (meaning "what I would suggest/change"), "editor" (stuff I got when trawling through the editor afterwards), and "overall".

I also want to put a big caveat that much of this is my personal opinion. I know it's obvious, but still. And yes, while I believe my personal opinion to be rooted in some rational logic & reasoning & evidence, it's also true that while I 'talk a big talk', you're the one who has actually done something with those race plans in your head. It's easy for me to critique when I haven't gone through all the work myself. So take it with a grain of salt. And know that I have only the highest respect for you in accomplishing what I have only dreamed of doing; not just designing & creating custom factions but doing so again & again & again & again &... You get the picture. : )

Anyway! On to the Review!

==FORSAKEN v1.1 - 2018.05==

=SPELLING/GRAMMAR/STYLE=
-Burial of Furtune
--> 'Fortune'
-Sepulture
--> OK I just checked and this is a word... But it's archaic, I'd never heard of it, and honestly I would suggest the more-common (& IMO more cool) "Sepulchre/Sepulcher".
-recieve (Bone Walker tooltip)
--> 'receive'
-Wraith Weaponry upgrade
--> ("... Attack (damage?) Of...", to match the other)
-plagueatorium (?)
--> I know you were making the word up yourself & it's 'fine', but something seems off about it. :<
-adjuvant (Spectre tooltip)
--> Turns out this is a word, but it's weird/medicinal... And even if you misspelled & meant "Adjutant", that also doesn't make sense. I would just stick with "Primary/Offensive/Supportive" like the game does, personally.
-improved corrosive
--> Wrong tense; I think you're looking for "Corrosion", because "Corrosive" is an adjective usually, e.g. "Corrosive Bile". (Check on this issue for a few of your abilities, actually)
-consumel (Spectre caster tooltip)
--> I think this just caught the 'straight line' ("|") that's meant to separate the text.
-train phantom
--> It doesn't really 'train' Phantoms like a barracks; he turns into one.
-mold (??)
--> Mold, like the creepy damp growy stuff? I don't get how this repairs buildings...
-surronding (monastery & PLG ability tooltip)
-->'surrounding'
-elegence (sepulture tooltip)
--> 'elegance'
-funtion (ruin tower tooltip)
--> 'function'. Also "summon"? Also also "no function" is a little 'lame-sounding'; no one wants to construct something with "no function". It can always be good for scouting.
-"by the Main Building" (Grave tooltip)
--> Might want to change this back to the name of their 'town hall'.
-"initially contains" (black garden tooltip)?
--> Strange construction; most tooltips don't read like that (at least for buildings).
-csting (wraith blade tooltip)
--> 'casting'
- Treatment Elixer
--> 'Elixir'
- "creates an ghostly..." (pale lady's gaze tooltip)
--> 'creates a ghostly...'
- "Restore" --> "Mold" (Servant tooltip)
--> Was this the original name? Might want to change the unit's tooltip as well.
- "ensur" & "vengence" (Quest Menu re: Forsaken)
--> 'ensure' & 'vengeance'
- Necrotic Oath
--> buff tooltip says "Soul Burn", and research tooltip says it deals DPS
- "of a friendly units or buildings" (Salubrious research tooltip)
--> 'of friendly units and buildings' (plural tense needs no 'a')
- Empusa tooltip not as long as the other two
--> This is tricky, but basically your tooltip length isn't always very consistent. It's one thing to have simple & complex units, but when you fill one tooltip by explaining all the abilities/damage-dice/etc, and the other is just "basic ranged attacker: has _blank_ ability & can learn _blank2_ ability", that's not quite right.
- indominable (Dark Lady's Vengeance - Mastery tooltip)
--> 'indomitable'
- "Super Plague Reconstitution"??
--> this is just... weird to my ears. "Super Plague" sounds comic-book-ish, and what is "reconstitution" supposed to mean in this context? That they've added water to the powder form to bring it back?
- Apothercaries (SPR - Mastery tooltip)
--> 'Apothecaries'
- Greater Abomonation (tooltip)
--> 'Abomination', also needs some serious decluttering. They generally never go into so much detail about each ability & the summon's stats (one or the other, sometimes). Cutting out a lot of the fat will make for a much better read.
- Blight Spread tooltip is a bit redundant
- "Corpse" is the name of the ability?
--> In the Editor it's called "Corpse Pile" which is better, but the base 'name' is just "Corpse".
- iniitially (Val'kyr tooltip)
--> 'initially'
- "Salubrious"? I mean I commend you for your vocabularity (ha), nice obscure, fitting word, but... IMO it's just too obscure. And it's in the wrong tense; you're using the adjective ("health/wholesome") instead of the ... whatever ("Salubrity: tending to healthiness/wholesomeness"). It's a spell, so it should be a descriptive/action-word like that.
- "spot of gas" (Death Fumes tooltip)
--> just a strange construction. One can have a spot of paint or water or a spot of bad luck or a spot of rain or a spot on a dress, but not a gas. Spot connotes a set, limited area; gases spread out. Perhaps "spout of gas" (still kinda weird)? Or simply "cloud of gas". Or "fog" or "haze" or "mist"...
- Shadow Ascended
--> I believe you meant to use "Ascendant", as in "one who has Ascended", like from the WoW Wiki
- Apothocary Adept Training
--> 'Apothecary'
- "Scyphe" (Scourge proper name)
--> 'Scythe'
- Pale Lady's Gaze tooltip
--> instead of "flying ghost" (which connotes movement), perhaps "stationary" or somesuch
- Elegance toolti
--> Sorta weird; rationale doesn't often show up in tooltip that 'blatantly'. SUGGESTION: "Withered/Toughened Flesh/Husk // "Mageweave Jerkins"... Something. Then just a simple "Enhances the Empusa with ____ which toughens their resistance to damage, reducing blah blah blah" for the tooltip would suffice.
- "Apparition" (name)
--> Sort of an ephemeral concept; it's like a vision. A cooler 'ghost-word' name might be Phantasm? Revenant? Spectre?
- "Acerbic" Potion?
="Single" --> "Target" (there were several places where you used the word 'single' instead of what the game generally uses, 'target':
- Spectre tooltip
- Ritual Tome tooltip
- Leech Staff tooltip
- (might be a few others I missed)


=PLUS=
- FORSAKEN!! Congrats, man, this is a race I've been dreaming of since the TFT campaign. : )
- I'm so glad to see Ujimasa's schweet structure-set at work. Aside from a few things, I think he did an amazing job, and you did a good job showing it off.
- nicely "Undead-esque-but-not-quite" resource gathering
- - especially the unique Phantom's auto-gather
- Servant Icon (not sure how well it fits the Servant himself (ironically/unfortunately, the Acolyte icon is probably better), but it's a schweet icon nonetheless)
- ARCHONNNNN-PPARITION!!!! So jealous! Archons are simply my favorite unit from Starcraft, and I've been dying to make them happen in Warcraft. : )
- Apothecary icon!
- Feint was fun & unique. A bit laggy to initially cast (he stutters/stops for a second (Casting Time>0?)), but otherwise it's neat. I'm also very curious how you got it to work...
- The Deathstalker was relatively fun & simple overall. Had a nice 'mobility' sub-theme (jump into combat with Feint, jump out with Shift (like two limited Blinks)), the 'life for kills' was nice, and the "Doom-Boom" was fun. Maybe could use slightly more eye candy.
- I felt similarly about the Scourge. Some might say he was too simple, and while there's maybe a touch of that, he was absolutely fit for the standard game. 'Technically unique' all the way, baby.
- I rather like the "Blight Aura". I have no clue about balance, but in particular the feedback was spot-on; the Carrion Swarm 'hit' SFX and sound were perfect for a subtle, occasional 'dark healing' effect.
- Shadow Ascended! I too have wanted to put that in my Forsaken race but wasn't quite sure how. I like your idea of Carrion-Beetle-style "Ultimate" companion-summons, though. They sorta have that "Bane Wraith" vibe (from Sword of Truth) that I also wanted to recreate in Wc3.
- While I also sometimes kinda felt you went a little too hard into "make the icon aesthetics match perfectly", I also thought it looked very cohesive. And some of the really good ones, to me, were the Scourge, the Spectre, the Val'kyr, and the Deathstalker.
- Gorgon Petrify icon wherrrrrre?
=Models!
- Black Hunter (love the "anti-Priestess of the Moon" deal, as well as "alternate Dark Ranger" deal)
- Servant (not exactly "dead" looking but no better "evil worker" model AFAIK)
- Dark Rogue (except face, although what can you do; Empusa is a good try)
- Empusa (kinda; the skin seems rather gray-ish rather than dead-ish but what can ya do)
- Vrykul Skeleton (DORF!!)
- Wraithblade (knowing what it was I still feel like it's better suited as a Hero, but by removing the hero glow & (clever!) making him perma-invisible, you've really gone a long way to making it more acceptable as a Unit IMO)
- Forsaken Archer (RIPepperoni AndrewOverload :'o...)
- Apothecary model (just nice)... But why not AnemicRoyalty's perfect-for-an-Apothecary-unit model?? (Undead Apothecary - Wc3C.net). Just remove the hero glows (& add the Decay anims) & you're set. It's even got a great icon (BTNCrUNDEAD), with a tiny bit of tweaking.
- Scourge model: It's funny... I don't really love the Scourge's model, but I do love his Portrait model! Lol.
- Shadow Ascended (Nice to see that 'void firelord' show up (though the pulsing "hero glow" was really distracting & probably ought to be removed/toned down))


=DELTA=
- First & foremost, I agree with @Engkanto in nearly every respect (except for the bits about Lore, because I ignore WoW stuff much of the time, except for inspiration). His side-by-side-comparisons of the models really makes the point clear.
- - Now I'm glad to see you've changed the 'basic melee unit' model & moved the Revenant Lord model to the Wraithblade (see above). But (see below) the Phantom is still the same
- - Similarly, the Heroes. I'll speak more on this below, but the bottom line is: those models are simply too amazing. Too heroic. Too boss-like. They are huge & imposing, and if you can believe it sort of generic, too (more on this later). Only the Black Hunter really works IMO, and the Scourge (less so). The other two I would definitely consider changing.
- Phantoms: remove hero glow! I really don't like the model much at all to be honest, but at the bare minimum he needs that Hero glow removed. It's really only meant to be on Heroes, to set them apart. In this case he sticks out so badly (which is even worse since they're the equivalent of Ghouls (super cheap & common)
- I'd suggest you make some of your towers require different things; everything being unlocked at once homogenizes it, makes it boring.
- Speaking of towers I both like & dislike what you've done with them. An Alliance-esque selection of towers makes sense, and Ujimasa kindly made a bunch of different ones, and in terms of names I like the creative twist (rather than the obvious). On the other hand, there's only 3, all the terms & indeed even the models/icons sorta blend in to one another, making them difficult to distinguish (either in play or on the command card), and the names are cool but also generically synonymous enough to not be of help in differentiation. :<
- Black Hunter & Dark Rogue have same sound-set (hard to find variety, I know the struggle.)
- Servant -> Phantom transition could use some eye candy
- "create bodies" icon = poison sting??
- Is the Val'kyr's attack projectile supposed to be icy blue->exploding red?
- Deathguard projectile SFX is a giant flaming meteor that swoops in from near the top of the screen perpendicular to the ground before arcing wildly down to the target... Pretty distracting. :<
- Acerbic Potion buff has Drunken Haze icon
- Death Fumes SFX = Undead build model?
- "cancels soul burn/drunken haze/acid bomb" is a decent work-around, even if I don't think it's quite sustainable
- not positive, but it seemed Virus didn't actually kill the target (stuck at 2 HP); could use some more eye candy
- I like the concept behind the Greater Abomination, but a few thoughts (not only to help differentiate it from the standard Undead Abomination but for coolness):
- - New Model: I'd suggest Supa's "Hero Abomination"; minus the hero glow it is, IMO, not heroic enough or different enough to be a Hero Abomination, but definitely good as a 'pseudo-Abomination'.
- - New Name: "Greater Abomination" is so D&D. : D Try an alternative like "Grotesque" or "Monstrosity" or "Aberration" (ooh, Sc2) or "Behemoth" or "Colossus". If none of those work/you really want two words, perhaps or "Mutant Lord" or "Grave Titan" (ooh, MtG) or "Corpse King" or "Grand Cadaver" or "Zombie Giant/Ogre/Ettin".
- Exterminator is basically "lots of damage"... There are worse heroes (Tauren Chieftain, Mountain King), but eh.
- I think the hero-class-name "Scourge" ought to be reconsidered in a setting where "the Scourge" are an actual thing. :< He's sort of a 'super undead-empowered warrior, who also summons/supports... "Blackguard"? "Dread General"? "(Shadow) Commander"? "Dreadnought"?...
- The corpses that the Black Garden summons (Empusa?) is a custom model that needs a Decay Flesh/Bones anim & corpsey geoset; you just see all these crumpled actual-mesh things lying around & it's also hard to spot.
- It was hard to tell that Remorseless was working for the Hero; the increased attack speed, I mean.
- Is the Black Hunter's Ultimate supposed to damage herself/allies as well?
- for the Mastery's, for dumb people like me, I think it'd be good to include a little bit of 'reminder text' somewhere, most likely on a tooltip. Probably just a dummy ability (icon & tooltip) on the Black Garden after you've picked, because I couldn't remember the bonuses I'd chosen. :<
- The ghost from Pale Lady's Gaze doesn't turn to face her target
- Black Cell has Anti-Magic shell tooltip
- For the Blightwing, might I suggest Marcos DAB's icon (BTNUnitVultureRider); might help with recognizing it amongst the others in it's barracks. (see below)
=Proper Hero Names; honestly this is a tough one to talk about because it's a very subjective discipline (proper naming Heroes). But there were some big issues overall:
- "Bridget Hatemeat"?
- "Dream Notleigh"?
- "GRAHAM BUSH the DEATHSTALKER"???
- - So to breakdown each Hero:
- - [Scourge] - I get the shtick; not sure how I feel about it. But it's straightforward. This is the best of the set.
- - [Exterminator] - This is just a bunch of 'bad things' stapled together, somewhat haphazardly. "Dark Flask"? "Killer Virus"? "Zombie Creator"? "Mortal Decay"?... And what's "Duke Dreadmoore" doing in there; holdover from the Death Knight?
- - [Black Hunter] & [Deathstalker] are both the worst IMO: she's got more of that "firstname two-random-bad-words-stapled-together-last-name" syndrome. What is a "Venomsweeper"? Or a "Cursewrithe"? and the aforementioned "Hatemeat"/"Notleigh"?? Some sound cool & feminine (Grimina, Xenia, Kath, Bridget, Luce, Servillah, Wilma, Phillippa, Ellie), but then are set off by the strange last bit or by others (Virusbinder?, Sleepslicer?, Deathhate?, Brandon?). Abe is a boy's name.
On the other hand, he's of a similar vein; lots of good one (Pennington, Kear, Nibley, Garr, Zachariah, Kellam, Graham, Rodolph), but then strange choices for the other half (Doomdemise?? Soulmenace? Bauhaus? Lifehate? Rottencreator??). And "Ashley" is a girl's name.
- - So I recognize part of what you were going for with some of them; in WoW they accentuate how these are every-day citizens of Lordaeron that have been turned & then gotten free, so 'regular people names' coupled with 'darkshade' or 'lightsbane' or 'murderface' is kind of a thing. I'm just... not sold. You've got some really good ones (the guy names I mentioned, the girl ones I mentioned), but... Urgh.
- I feel like overall there's a lot of complexity. Like every single unit has at least one, if not two or more abilities, and they aren't always straightforward. It's true that the Undead & Night Elf are along those lines, but there are some units for the Alliance/Horde that have no abilities!
- Especially the items. Maybe it's just me & my pickiness about items making it harder, but the items seem really intense. Where's the "every-race-has-these" basics like Potions of Health & Mana?
- I feel like there's a lot of names that are sort of 'out-there'. Though I appreciate the Greek myth-theme (Empusa, Gorgon)... And you thankfully didn't overuse the prefixes "Dark", "Shadow", "Black", "Death", etc too too much... It's still there.
- Not a massive fan of some of the models. Val'kyr is so big & bright, with a wingspan greater than a Frost Wyrm... Gorgons are solid black and sorta nondescript... The Skull Siege thing is both cool & weird at once...
=Heroes Overall
- The Heroes overall just lacked in a certain sense of personality or uniqueness. While this has a lot to do with how they look (see model suggestion comments above), it's also what they're called and what they are 'advertised' as.
It's a little hard to describe & I don't want to sound rude, but the only way I know how to explain is by example:
Alliance:
- Paladin: valiant hammer-wielding Human Holy Warrior
- Archmage: crotchety horse-riding staff-wielding Human Mage
- Mountain King: belligerent & diminutive, heavily armed/armored Dwarf Warrior
- Blood Mage: cunning & mysterious Blood Elven Mage
Horde:
- Far Seer: wizened wolf-riding nature-attuned Orc Shaman
- Tauren Chieftain: gnarled massive totem/halberd-wielding Tauren Warrior
- Blademaster: lithe & deadly samurai-esque sword-wielding Orc Warrior
- Shadow Hunter: primitive & mysterious jungle-dwelling Jungle Troll 'Shaman'
Sentinels:
- Priestess of the Moon: courageous tiger-riding bow-wielding Night Elf Archer
- Keeper of the Grove: ancient & powerful demigod-like being of nature
- Demon Hunter: nimble & transgressive demon-inspired Night Elf Warrior
- Warden: daunting & righteous cape-covered chakram-wielding Night Elf Jailer
Scourge:
- Death Knight: somber & violent horse-riding runeblade-wielding Corrupted Human Warrior
- Lich: brilliant & deadly skeletal frost-/death-wielding Undead Mage
- Dreadlord: ancient & malevolent vampiric Demon Warrior
- Crypt Lord: monstrous & traitorous claw-swinging armored Nerubian Warrior
and then your Forsaken:
- Black Hunter: ? & ? skeleton-cat-riding bow-wielding Undead? Archer?
- Scourge: ? & ? scythe-wielding armored Undead? Warrior?
- Exterminator: ? & ? dark-cloud/skeleton/magicky Demon-thing? Mage?
- Deathstalker: ? & ? scythe-/torch-wielding Undead? Warrior?

Put another way, I have to admit when I played that I had a hard time telling the other 3 apart (both visually (their looks) & thematically/mechanically in my head (their Role, their 'Class', their personality). They are different, no doubt, but sorta got muddled together in my head because they're all generically black/dark/shadow-themed non-Human... thingies. Demons? Undead? Corrupted Humans? No clue. Unlike most of the other standard Heroes, who all stand out brightly & obviously when I think back to them & what they are/do.

Now, I want to caveat a bit with the recognition that the Forsaken present a particular challenge in this arena; the whole "Undead" thing really acts as a sort of 'normalizer/equalizer' in ones' consideration of the Heroes. There isn't a whole lot of escape from "big evil dark brooding vicious guys", in a way, and that can mean you have your work cut out for you from the get-go.

However, just doing that exercise above sorta showed me that even the Scourge (who also have that whole "Undead" thing as a normalizer) found ways to fashion unique & differentiable Heroes (at least to some extent; still lots of 'edgy black shadow corpse guy' stuff).

I hope that made sense & helped, and wasn't demoralizing or anything. :<

While recreating your Heroes Thematically from the ground-up is really a personal process & not something I would try to push, I do have one suggestion: currently the Exterminator, as I understand him (mainly looking at his spells) really seems to have the kind of vibe I expect from a mad scientist working on strains of the Plague & experimenting on corpses & such... A true "Royal/Dark/Grand Apothecary". If you 'rebranded' in that direction, found a good model (perhaps even the one I linked above for your current Apothecary unit), and then just reworked the current Apothecary a bit (either into a sort of "Research Assistant" to the Apothecary Hero, or into an entirely different kind of caster), that would go a long way towards helping solve that guy.
For the others, I'd have to give it some more thought.



=EDITOR=
(Ok so that's it, I've dived into the deep end & opened the WE)
- So Remorseless is mod. Frenzy... Huh! Cool. Maybe that's why it didn't work (I never casted it, I just set it to autocast)
- Shift is... Mass Teleport?! (I would've sworn you just used Amulet of Recall or maybe Teleport Wand...) You can restrict the targets to just the caster if you set it to 1?! How neat! - Why did you change the Order String, though...? (I'd love to experiment & see if it can be set to target only Trees or somesuch...)
- Why is Umbra dummy-casted? Why not just have the Hero cast it?
- why are your ability triggers out of order waaaaaiiiii ;P
- Is Punish MUI/MPI, with that Wait? I don't see any local variables or anything...
- I'll be you could take out that trigger for Dark Rogue's Blight Spreading; just give them a "Summon On Death" ability where the summon is a short-lived Ziggurat or whatever. (modified of course)
- I've heard it's better to have one big trigger with all the Periodic Timer checks in it, rather than several separate ones (i.e. you've separated Fueled Rage out into two, even though it's the same 2 seconds, just adding or removing as needed; better that as a nested IF/THEN/ELSE-type deal)
- - And actually, I've heard the same for trigger Events in general; every "Unit is Attacked" should be in one giant trigger rather than a bunch of separate ones. Haven't done that yet myself, though
- BY THE WAY, as of the newest versions (actually it was true in older ones as well, we just didn't know, lol), you no longer need to use Spellbooks!! Simply set the ability you want to hide to have an X/Y of 0/-11, and it's automatically hidden!
- Hold Up, the Merge ability works fine just as it is, no triggers necessary? You can set the 'Data - Partner Unit Type' to the same kind & it doesn't freak out!? Criminy that's swell. (the only thing it's missing is the 'transform-time' of the normal Archon, but that's easy enough to recreate)
- Oh wait HoLD uP, Petrify is just Sleep? And you avoided the Buff-Stacking issue... How? (wait, I see you are taking advantage of the initial Stun (I forgot about that...) by setting it to match the Duration... Does that work??)
- Unfortunately, while you did a lot of great things to avoid it, you did end up re-using several standard Buffs, which won't Stack. The struggle is real. :<


=OVERALL=
Great stuff, mate! I'm a bit jealous at your completed Forsaken race, and look forward to pitting yours against mine. Probably around 2023. ; )

~~~~~~

hoo boi

 

[stein123]

woah.

 

[Wa666r]

Jesus. That must've taken you forever to write and no less examine every single pixle imaginable. We could spend days arguing and discussing the different ideas and such with the Forsaken.
Thanks for the suggestions and reviews. Hopefully you got a few ideas to help out with your soon-to-be released Forsaken.

 

[Kyrbi0]

. We could spend days arguing and discussing the different ideas and such with the Forsaken.

More to say, but please: bring it on. : )

 

[Kyrbi0]

@Wa666r bro where's my rebuttal? ; P

 

[Wa666r]

@Wa666r bro where's my rebuttal? ; P

A rebuttal. To a almost 24000 character review. Kyrbi0, we dont all enjoy writing as much as you. xD

 

[Kyrbi0]

A rebuttal. To a almost 24000 character review. Kyrbi0, we dont all enjoy writing as much as you. xD

No one says you have to write anywhere near as much (though I'd definitely read it) : ) In fact, you shouldn't; probably a good 1/3rd of it was all Spelling/Grammar/etc, so no need for a response.

Anyway, you were the one who mentioned it:

We could spend days arguing and discussing the different ideas and such with the Forsaken.

~~~

Really I'm mostly interested in your choices of Heroes, what went into that & what they are supposed to be/symbolize/represent.

 

[Wa666r]

I honestly don't remember why I made the heroes like I did. I think I tried to fit the aspects of the Forsaken as best as I thought they fit.

Black Hunter. The hero that most closely represents Sylvanas Windrunner; dark magic, archer-based, and female leader. Perhaps some of Sylvanas' more elite commanders.

The Exterminator. Something that embodied the plague and disease side of the Forsaken. A hero that might spend all his time researching new plagues, particularly the one that also affects Undead in the wow lore.

Scourage. Though now I'm not the biggest fan of this hero. He feels to evil and Undead Scourage like, but I think it works well because the Forsaken are more-or-less Undead Scourage, just with their free will and such. So why can't some retain the power they claimed during their service. The hero embodies the inertly evil and death magic that the Forsaken hold.

Deathstalker. During the earlier years of creating factions I wanted at least one type of each hero (Strength, Intelligence, and Agility). So I ended up creating an agility assassin hero. To me this hero is the least fitting, and I can't much find a "great" reason for it existing except that its just fun to play, kinda like a blademaster.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I honestly don't remember why I made the heroes like I did. I think I tried to fit the aspects of the Forsaken as best as I thought they fit.

Black Hunter. The hero that most closely represents Sylvanas Windrunner; dark magic, archer-based, and female leader. Perhaps some of Sylvanas' more elite commanders.

The Exterminator. Something that embodied the plague and disease side of the Forsaken. A hero that might spend all his time researching new plagues, particularly the one that also affects Undead in the wow lore.

Scourage. Though now I'm not the biggest fan of this hero. He feels to evil and Undead Scourage like, but I think it works well because the Forsaken are more-or-less Undead Scourage, just with their free will and such. So why can't some retain the power they claimed during their service. The hero embodies the inertly evil and death magic that the Forsaken hold.

Deathstalker. During the earlier years of creating factions I wanted at least one type of each hero (Strength, Intelligence, and Agility). So I ended up creating an agility assassin hero. To me this hero is the least fitting, and I can't much find a "great" reason for it existing except that its just fun to play, kinda like a blademaster.

Hm, thanks!

~~~

My $0.02; the Heroes really ought to be the archetypical & emblematic paragons of the race; true champions. Also they should be cool! They should excite you, each in their own way.
That being said I myself am working my custom heroes to get to this point. But were you ever (in some far-flung future, knowing how many other things you want to work on) to go back & take a look at these Heroes, I might suggest:

- Black Hunter: She's actually fine, everything about her Thematics makes perfect sense (like you said). I'm not a huge fan of the name ("Dark Ranger" --> "Black Hunter"...); I'd look for alternatives (possibly highlighting her tiger mount, ala "Shadow Dragoon" or "Dark Stalker"... possibly highlighting her martial/leadership prowess, ala "Ranger-General" or "Shadow Sergeant"... geez actually this is a hard one), but overall you are right on the money & I'm doing something nearly identical in mine.
- Exterminator: If you must keep the name, fine. But I'd just go ahead & fully embrace the "plague doctor/apothecary" bit, both with a model change (see above) & just tweak the tooltips/descriptions a bit. Unlike me, you aren't afraid to really adopt WoW-stuff into your races, and the Apothecaries are hugely important to the Forsaken of WoW, so it only makes sense to adopt them wholesale.
- Scourge: Your rationale isn't erroneous... But why rationalize when there's so many good alternatives?
- Deathstalker: Honestly I too like to 'fill the slots' (S/I/A), so that's fine. And I agree, it's a fun Hero to play; relatively simple & straightforward, with a cool paired-pseudo-Blink system (Feint & his 1st ability). I think you'd be greatly served by simply re-Theming him (i.e. keep the abilities/mechanics/stats the same, just change the art/tooltips/descriptions/story/etc). Personally, something with a little more flavor, more character, and especially something that 'slots in' to the story told by the Forsaken: (this is what happens when you start drafting a post, then return to it days later... No idea what went after this colon. So, moving on):

So one of the first things I think of when I think 'Forsaken' is Banshees. Or less specifically, Spirits. Sylvanas is the Banshee Queen, mirite? Well, I know your already using this model, but it was originally designed (& perfectly fits) as a Hero model; yes I'm talking about the Frost Revenant. The perfect "ethereal" dude, enshrouded in armor & wielding the bitter North against his foes.
(Now, if like me you don't prefer/can't use the Ice aesthetic, it's a relatively simply SFX color swap to find something else (I'm in the middle of it myself))

Alternatively, Donut3.5's Wraith Lord is a favorite old model of mine; it's meant to be a Hero, and (with Hero Glow & perhaps a few other tweaks) it could be an angle to take the Deathstalker into (new model -> new name(s) -> new Theme). They already have the teleporting things going on (Feint & Ability #1), and the other two make perfect sense on it as well. A truly 'ghostly' force; "Phantasm"?

A great model by Jigrael that could possibly fit is his Armored Ghost; it's not quite a straightforward "Ghost ghost", but it is apparently a kind of ghost, and being all armored like that makes him really cool, kinda fitting as a Human remnant.

Finally, even if you totally disagree with all of the above (name/model-change suggestions), I hope you'll consider another excellent Jigrael work: Demon Knight. While I personally believe the style to be too good for standard Warcraft, that's not something you seem to have as much of an issue with. It's pretty much a strict upgrade from the current Deathstalker model, in my opinion; better texture, better animations, better mesh... Give it a try. : )

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the Heroes.

 

[Null]

this is like 80% lore 20% new stuff. i can t blame you if there isnt t enough content in wow or resources in hive to create the forsaken team but the heroes are too far from lore.

 

[Onaneehsyu]

I just don't understand why you give me such a low score for such minor errors.

Maybe the book is a tad too much. But, though the Undead Scourge hold's their necromancers under strong mind control, the Forsaken still have an affinity for black magic (How else would Sylvanas have the Black Arrow ability?) The whole Main Building attacking has already been done over and over. And plus, I rather enjoy having a different type of initial defense.

Sorry if I replied to this even if my question is irrelevant to it but this is the only way I can reach out to you since you are the creator of these custom races. I'm quite new, just recently made my account here, and I'm quite clueless how to play your custom races. If you can be so kind to teach me a thing or two I would greatly appreciate it and would give feedback on your work once I get to play. Thanks a lot in advance.