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Hmm... I'll look into that...

The problem is, it took a long time to get all of the people to come over and do the recording. Do you mind telling me which ones exactly so I don't have to go and rerecord the whole campaign? Thanks for feedback though!

I am currently re-doodad-ifying the first two maps, after I found some AWESOME doodads. I'm not gonna say which ones, because then people will go and try uploading them here, which the author made clear he does NOT want them doing. I'm also going to change the scenes with Dappledorch and Burnie so that they are inside their house, and not outside it.

Third map is about 7/10 done.
 
Level 3
Joined
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Messages
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Hiho,
I tried your campaign and I really liked it. You made a nice terrain in my opinion and I really like that you recorded speeches on your own. The way you designed the quests you have to do were really nice but too short... well, I only had the chance to play 1 map... I just can say "keep on your good work" and I hope to get more quests/ maps of your campaign.
The only bad thing I recognized was that some characters' speeches were only readable but not audible. (maybe I'm the only one with that problem...)
But all in all it seems to be great!
-greetings, Pajam
 
Was it Coalch's speech? He lives in Canada, and I live in England, so I just had to put up with his crappy microphone. I'm still working on that.

And thanks about the terrain, but if you thought that was good, then... well... I'm currently redoing the terrain at the moment if you get what I mean ;)

Next map and version will be out some time this summer (hopefully), so I hope you can play it again then!
 
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Hi Pyritie,
I'm not sure what his name was... it was the king in dragonmorticar (or how the town is called) but it's not so important. Who cares about one figure?... so, keep on working on the next map and I wish you nice ideas for the other parts of your campaign. And I'm sure, I'll play it.
-greetings, Pajam
 
Hey, it's better than filefront or one of those other annoying ones.

Just remember that the next version will have much more stuff in it, for example, an addition to the first map (Those screenshots from my terrain thread) and a third map. I'm also redoing the terrain drastically, as well as redoing the whole of the second map so it's much more fun.
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
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Messages
27,191
As trigger moderator I decided to do a wise saying.
"As a user of a program it is your task to be as stupid as possiable and do your best to break the program"
And man this map can get baddly broken

Well first bug is with the elements chasing the dragons, the pathing messes up (someone forgot to remove collision from them) in the round about and thus looks funny.

Second is with the elevators in the second map. They bugg badly including your heroes vanishing and "falling down" the elevators to a lower level (or climbing up a raised elevator).

Third but is with the level up system, after picking up the special hero tome you gain a level and a skill point, with that dragon if you pick up another dragon's level up tome it does not make you gain a level nor destroy the tome but IT REMOVES THE SKILL POINT so you phisically lose 1 entire skill point, which is VERY bad.

Fourth bug is you can mass murder the city since there is no friendly fire stopper and the city dragons are damagable.

Next to that the scripting seems the be short cutted but that does not hinder or alter game play.

About the actual story it self.
I know this is your campaign but still, you could do with rethinking it.

Firstly you refer to the dragons as humans a lot (you call them people which refers to humans which obviously they are not). Yes I know english is very human orintated since even calling the dragons "him"/"he" and "her"/"she" should techincaly be "it" but that is allowed since humans often call inanimate objects as "she"/"her" and thus it is ok but calling the dragons people is wrong since they are not humans.

The dragons I find mimic humans far too much, yes some human mimicry is allowed, but currently your story could be acted out using humans instead of dragons with no problem what so ever or plot discontinuities. You really need to in the very first intro cinimatics get through that thoes are dragons and not just people since even the mother extinuishing the house could be preformed by a human (ice mage?) and so they do not really feel like they are dragons.

The actual setting of the first part of the campaign is messed up, by default dragons which are normally refered to as cold blooded (you can still make them warm blooded since many are meant to actually have lava flowing as blood (refference to HOM&M5+expansions)), which would mean they would prefer not to live in frozen areas (ice dragons are an exception) or atleast not without armor if they are warm blooded. Maybe make it take place in a more temperate climate or give all dragons some kink of armor since it sticks out seeing a naked dragon (NO not the ice dragons, they like it) walking where the badies you fight are in thick coats (wolves, bares, trolls) and not suffering any cold penalty.

Also you reference the 2 main starting heroes (the brothers) having a 3 month or something age difference but no other brothers, which is unusual since almost all dragons (made up that is since a dragon never has existed in the real world) normally lay more than 1 egg which hatch soon after each other (1 - 2 days atmost difference). Remember dragons are not humans and again that makes it ever so easy to imagine everything being human based and not dragons. You definattly need to reconsider that part of the story.

The one brother's dialog sounds like he is on drugs, saying all thoes dudes and stuff. Also in families it is highly unlikly that such a difference in personalities would occure, especially if they are so close like you show them ass, ones saying dude all the time and the other is more normal. Also the civilization you created in the campaign is primitive compared to modern real life with radios, mobiles and computers and the entire dude thing was started in the last 40-50 odd years and thus in such a civilization it should be techinicly impossiable for a person/dragon to take on the trait of talking like that. You need to rethink the overall personalities.

The one fire dragon said "holy bleep" which just shows bad script design and low quality work. Propper scripts should avoid saying words like "fuck" unless it fist into the characters personality in which case it is perfectly ok to say swear words propperly and out loud in the voice acting since this is a gamming community that supports adults as well and most 10+ year olds say "fuck" 8-3687 times a day so there is no reason for it to be censored. If you do censor it use a propper "BEEEEEEEEP" sound from a synthisizor or other game/source since a said "beep" really makes it sound like no effort was put into making the script.

The city layout was too lineal, try making it more open and random since currently it looks like you spent 5 minutes making it (30-60 should be a half decent city). Also the people in the city should have more personality, do something random or be interactable. You could by goods from the one shop as well which probably is a bug but propper shops with lots of items should be made.

I know voice actors are hard to get cheeply (especially good ones) but you need to work on the emotion of the different scenes and the continuity of speaking since blizzard's campaigns are a lot more fluid in speach and emotion with decent blending of character interaction which yours seems to miss entirly. A lot of the voices were very monotonis and sounded like you selected text in MSword and said read to me. Also the king's voice was too soft compaired to the others.

The badies you fight along the way need to be included into the story. Currently they are just there and seem like they never were not there. Maybe make them minions of the evil dragon or something to do with that artifact since that is what most games base them on.

Do not be offended by this but this is what I feel really needs to be done.
 
Finally, some decent critique! Thank you for writing all of that ^_^
Well first bug is with the elements chasing the dragons, the pathing messes up (someone forgot to remove collision from them) in the round about and thus looks funny.
Yeah... I wonder who that could be... >_> <_<

Try doing that first part again. 9/10 times it works, but occasionally it doesn't.

Second is with the elevators in the second map...
Going to redo terrain in next version, the temple is not going to be included.

Third bug is with the level up system, after picking up the special hero tome you gain a level and a skill point, with that dragon if you pick up another dragon's level up tome it does not make you gain a level nor destroy the tome but IT REMOVES THE SKILL POINT so you phisically lose 1 entire skill point, which is VERY bad.
Will fix for next version, thanks for pointing that out.

Fourth bug is you can mass murder the city since there is no friendly fire stopper and the city dragons are damagable.
I never thought about that... will make them all invulnerable for next version.

Next to that the scripting seems the be short cutted but that does not hinder or alter game play.
What do you mean? The second map is getting a massive overhaul.

About the actual story it self.
I know this is your campaign but still, you could do with rethinking it.

Firstly you refer to the dragons as humans a lot (you call them people which refers to humans which obviously they are not). Yes I know english is very human orintated since even calling the dragons "him"/"he" and "her"/"she" should techincaly be "it" but that is allowed since humans often call inanimate objects as "she"/"her" and thus it is ok but calling the dragons people is wrong since they are not humans.
Don't people also refer to their pets as "he/she"? Dragons have genders too you know. But saying "dragons" all the time instead of "people" just makes it sound bad. It's like us referring to ourselves as "humans" instead of people. Remember, as the Blood Mage says "For my people", he is not talking about humans, he is talking about his race, the blood elves. So a dragon talking about his "people" refers to his/her race, i.e. dragons.

The dragons I find mimic humans far too much, yes some human mimicry is allowed...
I do not believe in feral uncivilised dragons. I just like dragons, and having everyone hissing makes it sound stupid. And hissing is one thing my microphone screws up a lot.

The actual setting of the first part of the campaign is messed up, by default dragons which are normally refered to as cold blooded...
Should I add a scarf or something around their neck? Besides, it could be in a temperate place, just in the dead of winter. Also, in the next version, there's a lot which occurs inside their house, which has a fireplace and candles and such. See my thread in the terrain forum for examples.

Also you reference the 2 main starting heroes (the brothers) having a 3 month or something age difference but no other brothers, which is unusual since almost all dragons (not made up since dragons do exist in the real world) normally lay more than 1 egg which hatch soon after each other (1 - 2 days atmost difference)...
Should I change that to hours or days then?

In families it is highly unlikly that such a difference in personalities would occure, especially if they are so close like you show them as, ones saying dude all the time and the other is more normal. ... You need to rethink the overall personalities.
That's just his personality. Remember, wc3 is a fantasy game. Besides, I have two friends who are twins who couldn't be more different personality-wise. And Lirch is supposed to be more silly and childish, that's his personality.

The one fire dragon said "holy bleep" which just shows bad script design and low quality work...
I'm changing that to "crap" in the next version.

The city layout was too lineal, try making it more open and random since currently it looks like you spent 5 minutes making it (30-60 should be a half decent city)... You could by goods from the one shop as well which probably is a bug (Nope it's not a bug) but proper shops with lots of items should be made.
Again, the terrain (including the city) is going to be completely redone in the next version. The shops are a good idea though.

I know voice actors are hard to get cheeply (especially good ones) but you need to work on the emotion of the different scenes and the continuity of speaking since blizzard's campaigns are a lot more fluid in speach and emotion with decent blending of character interaction which yours seems to miss entirly. A lot of the voices were very monotonis and sounded like you selected text in MSword and said read to me. Also the king's voice was too soft compaired to the others.
All of the voice actors are people I personally know, as it is easier to have them come around to my house and do it all there. In future though, I will be needing some more ones, especially since I got in a big fight with Firch and so he's not doing voice acting any more, but I already found a suitable replacement for him.

Well, I actually did do that last part... I feel guilty now >_<

Lots of people say that the voices are monotonous, but I dunno if it's the whole thing that needs to be redone, or just a certain part, or what.

Also, the king's voice actor lives in Canada, and I live in the US, and that's the loudest his microphone will do without it butchering the sound.

The baddies you fight along the way need to be included into the story...
I'm going to remove the creeps, add some wolves deep in the forest, and have a path. There's going to be things like a tool booth which you have to go find something to pay it for, which takes you on a mini-quest, and all sorts of stuff.

Do not be offended by this but this is what I feel really needs to be done.
I am not offended, rather I thank you a lot for pointing out that stuff.
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 63
Joined
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Messages
27,191
Unfortunatly english is human orintated so thats why it seems so messed up if you write in the point of view of another creture about them selves. This is humanities faults for making themselves gods of all other life on this planet.

When I mean the dragons getting cold, I mean that considering they have no fur and are wearing nothing it must be cold for them, whether cold or warm blooded this is just a fact that the heat loss in snow is extreme. And scales (skin of all reptiles and dragons) is not particually insoulative so just imagine your self being naked and walking through the snow, well thats what the dragons are doing and I KNOW the models will be updated to your walking one.

The entire brother thing you had just sounded too human for it to be dragons and remember dragons "hatch" from eggs, humans (and mammals) are "born". Its all this advanced english terms that can get confusing, I recommend looking at dictionaries to get the right terms.

As for the personalities, the entire dude thing just sounds wierd, not his personality but just the way he keeps saying dude reminds me of drug abusers at school. I find that people bringing the dude thing into main characters often ruin a game because it sounds like they suffer from a mental problem. Yes dude used once or twice is ok but constant speaking of it is a bit much.

As for your dialog, you need to make it more fluid and give tone, look at blizzard's campaigns, they often try and overlap the voices to make it sound more casual than forced acting. Also emotion changing throughout a voice file often helps keep it more fluid. Getting them to play certian animations during a file playing can also make it feel more professional and higher quality.

Practice with the voice files and such and it will really become good.
 
Unfortunatly english is human orintated so thats why it seems so messed up if you write in the point of view of another creature about themselves...
So what should I do then?

When I mean the dragons getting cold, I mean that considering they have no fur and are wearing nothing it must be cold for them, whether cold or warm blooded this is just a fact that the heat loss in snow is extreme...
Should they have boots and scarves and jackets and stuff then?

The entire brother thing you had just sounded too human for it to be dragons and remember dragons "hatch" from eggs, humans (and mammals) are "born"...
I'll take a look at that.

As for the personalities, the entire dude thing just sounds wierd, not his personality but just the way he keeps saying dude reminds me of drug abusers at school...
Well not everyone has drug abusers at school who say dude, so I don't really agree with that part. He's supposed to be more childish, and so I thought saying "dude" could bring a little more humor into the thing.

As for your dialog, you need to make it more fluid and give tone... Also emotion changing throughout a voice file often helps keep it more fluid. Getting them to play certian animations...
The animations of the current wow models are very limited, and so once I get my dragons up and running they will hopefully have lots of cinematic-only anims.

I think I'm going to have to get rid of some of my current voice actors, like Burnie and possibly Dappledorch. And maybe Coalch too. I've already got someone new for Firch, and I don't want to replace Scorch, as she's played by my girlfriend who loves doing the voice acting. Lirch is also preferably a keeper. Pirch is pretty good, but since she's my sister I can make her do all the voice acting I need, as I don't need to worry about booking times for friends to come over, etc.

And raging, is there any specific character you would be interested in doing?
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 63
Joined
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Messages
27,191
All that is needed is a scarf and some boots to show that they are atleast wearing something warm. As for the entire english part, I do not know, I am not perfect at english so maybe ask some friends of yours if they find that using thoes words are valid but currently it seems like too many human only words are used. It is perfectly fine to use he/his and she/her to describe the dragons since using "it" would make most people think they are just creatures and not something capable of logical thought.

I recommend making each dragon have almost entirly custom spells since these dragons are meant to be "special" and not "generic_dragon_759" which some people might feel since those moves are used a lot for dragons in hundreds of custom maps.

Even giving them somthing as simple as an extra effect can make people say "WOW" and play on just to see how good the ability is/looks. I often have found my self doing that in multiplayer maps.

If you do not want to / have enough time to make your own custom spells, try looking in the spell section. Daelin and Vexorian made some very good elemental spells at one stage back on wc3sear (now in our spell section) that might fit quite well with your dragons.
 
I think I'm covered with spell ideas for most of the characters except for Lirch. These will be in the next version. I also prefer GUI spells, as they are far simpler to implement, and importing JASS ones always makes my map crash, and I dunno what to do. Maybe I need to read that "how to implement spells" thingy in that knockback spell... but it's so long!! T_T Ah well, I guess I have all summer.

Anyways, any ideas for spells for Lirch would be helpful. At the moment he just has Evasion, Bash, Critical Strike, and Whirlwind. He doesn't do magic, as he is just, well, a kid. Pyritie has the artifact, so he does magic, but I think his artifact spells are really lacking. At the moment I just have impale, cyclone, and tornado, as well as other boring ones for the other elements. If you would like to help, here is the criteria:
  1. Lirch needs 5 spells (4 basic, one ultimate) that use no magic. This includes auras.
  2. I need 3 (at the moment 3, but 12 eventually) elemental spells which have one rank each, and each element has one weaker, one medium, and one more powerful spell. The elements are Air, Earth, Water, and Fire.
  3. Pyritie could do with two lightning-based spells, as I already have a chain lightning but it increases damage each jump.
These are the spells I have so far:
  • Pyritie - Lightning spells
    • Chain lightning that increases in damage each bounce
  • Lirch - Non-magic physical-based spells
    • None at the moment, see above for info
  • Scorch - Magic, more chaotic? and damaging
    • Hailstorm (Blizzard) - possibly needs replacement
    • Something like Mana burn, but heals the target while taking away mana and can only be cast on own units
    • Throws a big firey ball exploding on first thing it hits, probably using Vex's bouncing boulder spell
    • Creates a mana siphon at a target point, draining mana from all enemy units nearby and giving it to Scorch
    • Elemental Knowledge (ultimate) - summons a random type of elemental based on what artifact orbs Pyritie has
  • Pirch - Magic, basically a healbot
    • Heals a unit for X life, and then that unit gets a healing aura thing which heals nearby friendly units, but if that unit is killed while under this affect then the killing unit gets healed.
    • Something like a combo between blink and Phase shift, where it's like phase shift but then Pirch blinks away from the attacker
    • Nightmare - puts the unit to sleep for X seconds, then when it wakes up it gets damaged over time
    • Some sort of aura, need idea here
    • Hypnotise (Charm), but if Pirch is killed then all charmed units revert to their former owners
  • Coalch - melee, some magic
    • Chain Throw
    • War stomp with a nice knockback effect
    • Some sort of aura, need ideas
    • Also need ideas for an ultimate and another basic
  • Firch - basically a demonic dragon sort of thing
    • Some sort of aura, need an idea
    • Dark portal, but summons nether dragons (well duh), also gives them an expiration timer because the AI tends to stick them all in its base and never attack with them
    • Fear - Same thing warlocks have in wow
    • Drain Soul - drains mana and life of target unit, could do with a little sprucing up
    • Time Stop - stops time for 12 seconds, allowing only Firch and his army to be able to move
Also raging, I'll PM you with some lines from my campaign that you can try out
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
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Lirch
Dragon Combat
Basicly is drunkenbrawl except the stats changed to match that of something ballenced for the dragon. Both allows evasion and critical strikes.

Charge
He charges foward towards the targeted enemy/point and causes units in his way to go flying. He stops after hitting one unit but that unit goes flying and damages/stuns any units it lands into.

Dragon Heritage (may be misspelt)
This move is your standard powerup move but it adds very little to everything. It would increase HP, MANA, damage, attackrate, armor and also upgrade the critical strike from Dragon Combat to deal 2.25,2.5 and 2.75 instead of 2* normal damage.

Ultimate
(I have not named it)
Basicly is an equivelent to avatar but it ups everything including the power of Charge. It is a on/off spell and so has no cooldown but takes 4 seconds to transform and constantly drains mana (if out of mana it reverts).

I am aware you do not want your dragons to be complete animals but remember that dragons are meant to be strong and powerfull by default when compaired to humans and so the list of spells combaines everything seen on dragons into a list of moves for a phisical dragon that matches your map.

And I did take triggering them into account. They all should be easilly dooable.
 
Those are some good ideas, yes, but the ultimate one would maybe require some magic use? Or maybe he gets really angry ^_^
Ooo it could be called Adrenaline Rush!

Keep in mind, though, that Lirch is not an experienced fighter, as he is only 14 >_<

That charge one would require a lot of knockback stuff, but I think I found a suitable one in the spell section.

The Heratige one looks a little... silly? I dunno.

And about this whole dragons being powerful thing. Keep in mind that my campaign is featuring practically all dragons (and some elementals too), so making them all powerful would seem a little pointless.
 

Dr Super Good

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Well they are all phisical moves as apposed to giving them moves I would make for my maps. Also remember that dragons age differently from humans since they are a different speices. And just to demonstrate to you that 14 years of age is enough to be a hero.

Sonic the Hedgehog is meant to be only 15
Miles Tails Prower is meant to be 8 (Im sure wikipedia must be wrong about that)
Harry potter (yes a human) was saving his world from domination by evil forces at pre 14 years of age.
Dr Super Good is only 14 (meh 15 soon) and has been helping people for 2 years and is even a moderator now.

Dragons are not humans and technicly when they hatch they are equivelent to a 2-3 year old human child (they are capable of full moving soon after hatching like most reptiles and animals) so you can expect dragons to be slightly more advanced than humans for their age. Basicly a human prettymuch loses the first 2 years of life to undevelopment and parasitising and then over another 3 years gain the ability to learn stuff quickly. By 6 odd their brains start learning quickly and at 12 they are capable of thinking like an adult. But only at 16-18 do humans become strong enough to "fight evil", thus the lack of 8 year old heroes in games and in real life.

now think of a dragon that instead of spending 2-3 years to devlop like a human, instead starts learning like a 4 year old. Also since dragons overall are probably simpler geneticly like almost all reptile, they probably grow rather quickly to. Also the average badguy is normally weaker than a fully grown dragon and thus at an eariler age does a dragon have the strength to overpower them. So a 14 year old dragon probably matches the age of a 17-18 year old human and do not forget that your dragon is a hero so there is no trouble with him being phisicly strong at the age of 14.

Do not think I am saying dragons are stupid by saying they are simpler, humans may be more complex but is all that complexity needed, humans die at the age of 60 (average) and atmost 120 odd. While dragons are often depictured as lasting 1-3 centuries.

I can understand if you have no clue about what I am saying, but I have though about it for a long time and thought of the entire "Humans V Dragons" concept.

Just do not let me put you off your campign by saying all this, it is rather complex all this dragon stuff, amazingly complex for something that never existed (sadly).
 
Well they are all phisical moves as apposed to giving them moves I would make for my maps. Also remember that dragons age differently from humans since they are a different speices. And just to demonstrate to you that 14 years of age is enough to be a hero.
He's only a hero at the start to show that he's an individual unit, a main character. It's only after he finds the artifact that he somewhat becomes a hero of sorts.

So a 14 year old dragon probably matches the age of a 17-18 year old human and do not forget that your dragon is a hero so there is no trouble with him being phisicly strong at the age of 14.
Okay, I think this is just getting to complicated. Like you said before, the dragons could be easily replaced as humans without any changes in the storyline. This is somewhat what it's supposed to be like. Sorta.
I only made them all dragons because I love dragons. If the campaign is going to be nothing but dragons then why make them all powerful? It seems kinda pointless to me.
 
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329
Another thing to add onto the list: after minimizing WC3 during the first cutscene and remaximizing, the music at the beginning (The peaceful serene one played in the forest) refused to play. Meaning that I was just pretty much left in silence while waiting for the scene to change. Just thought you should know.
 
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329
Okay, two more problems:

If you finish the Who Burned the Village quest before talking to scorch in the main quest, you're left with a cutscene with two dragons facing the camera and no Scorch :(

Also, the pathway into the city is blocked by the air/water towers. I had to kill them before I could enter.
 
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May 28, 2007
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Hiho,
as I promissed, I played the 2nd version of your campaign and again I really liked it. The terraining of your first map is great, I really like how you managed the doors and how the dragons are able to use the stairs.

I didn't finish playing the 3rd map, yet, but I'll when I've got time to play.

Except some of the bugs and bad things, that are mentioned in your posts above, I recognized one more. At the beginning of the trip to Dragonlitermorticae (correct spelling??) your (Pyritie's) mother throws pancakes onto the burning house :eekani:
I'm not sure if it's an easteregg or a bug, but it looks a little weird...
Also the blue crystals look ugly. They all look the same and especially in the trip to Dragonm. they all are placed with the same space between them... another model would fit much better I think.
Anyway, nice work and keep it up!

-greetings, Pajam
 
At the beginning of the trip to Dragonlitermorticae (correct spelling??) your (Pyritie's) mother throws pancakes onto the burning house :eekani:
That would be because before, her missle was the water thing, but for the pancakes game it was changed to a pancake. That would be the issue there.
Also the blue crystals look ugly. They all look the same and especially in the trip to Dragonm. they all are placed with the same space between them... another model would fit much better I think.
That's because I changed the tree destructable to the crystal model, which thus changed everything in JtD. I will be putting more of those better trees and such instead, of course.

Thanks for feedback!
 
Level 8
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Okay, more bugs to point out:
- I'm not sure if its supposed to be like this, but the elemental bracelet on the third map contains ALL the spells on it. Plus, it does not replace the old bracelet once you equip it.

- A large bit of text appears at the beginning of the third map, but cutscene mode instantly wipes it off the screen. The only way to view it from then is to go into your logs [F12].

- On the elemental bracelet, the blink has no tooltip :(
 
1) Yes, that one is just for testing purposes. At the end, the blink and that other spell will not be in it; they're just for testing purposes.

2) That is just a bit of text which shows the different text commands to do things like give P&S extra lives, etc. Again, it's for testing purposes. It's supposed to be wiped off of the screen so it doesn't get in the way.

3) Again, testing purposes.
 
Hell no! I'm planning to make around 12 maps in total. I really need to work faster...

The campaign is going to be released map by map, so every time that I finish a map, I'll release the campaign so far.

If SC2 comes out before I finish, I might either turn this whole campaign into pure cinematics and then turn it into a movie, or I might start the tedious process of turning it into a SC2 campaign.

Also, the first map is almost finished!
 
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