Development—A promotion, a vacation, and a resignation

PurplePoot · Jun 26, 2009

As I know that the maps and spells sections are a concern to many of you, I'll be keeping you updated via news posts about the latest important staff changes in the development section. I'm still looking to promote several new moderators for Maps and Spells, as we are quite understaffed, so you can expect several new arrivals in the next few months. In the mean time, if anyone has any suggestions as to what they think might help out the sections, they are more than welcome to post them in Site Discussion, the relevant Resource Moderation forum, or private message them to me (depending on how private they want them).
First off, Linaze will be joining the team as a Map Moderator. I hope you'll all welcome him and support him in his job to come. As bounty has been busy for a bit and will be for the rest of the summer, hopefully this (as well as any other appointees that may come) will help stem the tide of maps which are being submitted.
Second, bounty hunter2 will be on vacation for the summer and thus unable to review maps, so don't try to contact him with regards to moderating during this time. This will likely cause the maps section to slow down a bit during his absence.
Finally, Eccho is retiring as a Spells Moderator, at least temporarily but most likely permanently. I hope you'll all give him thanks for his contributions to the spells section.

Septimus · Jun 26, 2009

Good to have linaze, we have about 30 map that certainly need to be rejected right away.

I would try to make it more convenient for Linaze by updating the list. Hopefully we can reduce the map pending pages below 10 by end of July.

Xezko · Jun 26, 2009

Congrats, Linaze.
Have Fun, Bounty.
We will miss you, Eccho.

Linaze · Jun 26, 2009

Thanks.
Oh and Septimus, you can always assist me by PM:ing me maps that breaks rules etc.

Gilles · Jun 26, 2009

I'm glad to see these sorts of updates in the news now. Well done Poot.

Welcome to the team Linaze.

Devine · Jun 26, 2009

Congratulations, Linaze.
We still need a spellmod though.
Eccho, we still love you.

busterkomo · Jun 26, 2009

I'm glad to see that another map moderator has been promoted.

DevineArmy said:
Congratulations, Linaze.
We still need a spellmod though.
Eccho, we still love you.

Well, the spell section would be a lot better if Dr Super Good did any moderating.

Rising_Dusk · Jun 26, 2009

hvo-busterkomo said:
Well, the spell section would be a lot better if Dr Super Good did any moderating.

Far more important than that, if there were stricter regulations regarding what is a permissible submission to the spell section and what isn't.

Kwah · Jun 27, 2009

Spells we do not want:

Ones that there are more efficient copies of out there. We don't want your crap.
Ones that "re-invent the wheel". Libraries are there for a reason.
Ones that DO NOT WORK 1.24. If spell DOES NOT WORK. We DO NOT WANT.
GUI - DON'T BOTHER. IT SUCKS.

Squiggy · Jun 27, 2009

It's a shame to see mods resigning..

Ash · Jun 27, 2009

Septimus said:
Good to have linaze, we have about 30 map that certainly need to be rejected right away.

I would try to make it more convenient for Linaze by updating the list. Hopefully we can reduce the map pending pages below 10 by end of July.

Where do you get your statistics from? Maps are increasing by, rougly, 10 a day. And there's 2 active Map Mods, Rui and Linaze.

Now, all quality aside -- not that there was actually much to begin with (even though people have been getting better) -- asking people to review 5 maps a day is bullshit to anyone with even an ounce of a real life.

And, if you take quality into account, it is nay impossible.

Kwah · Jun 27, 2009

NEIGH IS FOR HORSES.

ohwai-

To make on-topic, what Squiggy said.

Ash · Jun 27, 2009

(Noticed the error, and corrected. Thanks hawk >_>)

HFR · Jun 27, 2009

Good luck Linaze, and Bounty, well, enjoy your vacation.

Septimus · Jun 27, 2009

asking people to review 5 maps a day is bullshit to anyone with even an ounce of a real life.

Reviewing 20 maps a day is not impossible if all map reviewer are helping and resources that does not adhere to site rules such as no description could be rejected right away without any checking.

Since the author agree to adhere the rules and failed to do so, why should the map be review?

xp3r009 · Jun 27, 2009

Welcome Linaze. It seems like a tough job with many reviews, but we count on you as a moderator. Good luck also

.

Bounty Hunter, enjoy your holiday. Schooling at my school is sort of getting stressed out, but at least it is the school holidays is on the run for 2 weeks.

And for Eccho, I see you on the chatroom's and you would be known as the echo's as said, but it seems hard. Enjoy and good job. Being a moderator is hard, but its what keeps the stuff moving.

Deolrin · Jun 27, 2009

Congratulations on your promotion, Linaze, and good luck!

Enjoy your vacation bounty hunter, hope to have you back soon.

Too bad Eccho is resigning, we definitely need some extra spell-mods. We all still <3 u here.

Michael Peppers · Jun 27, 2009

Well, I won't tell anything new by saying "Good luck, Linaze!", but I'll do it anyway, so...

Good luck, Linaze :razz:

XS-Archangel · Jun 27, 2009

map section cannot go slower than this, I uploaded dday a month ago or more and it isn't reviewed

Linaze · Jun 27, 2009

We have over 400 pending maps, period.

PurplePoot · Jun 27, 2009

That's normal, sadly. We're working on it.

xD.Schurke · Jun 27, 2009

hawk900 said:
Spells we do not want:

GUI - DON'T BOTHER. IT SUCKS.

you are right, but that wouldnt be fair.
My idea for the spellsection would be that its similar to the Triggers&Scripts forum. I mean the [GUI] and

JASS:

 perfix. I think this would create a better overview

PurplePoot · Jun 27, 2009

xD.Schurke said:
you are right, but that wouldnt be fair.
My idea for the spellsection would be that its similar to the Triggers&Scripts forum. I mean the [GUI] and

JASS:

perfix. I think this would create a better overview[/QUOTE]You can sort by category.

xD.Schurke · Jun 27, 2009

PurplePoot said:
You can sort by category.

I know, but would be nice if it would be a standard

Ham Ham · Jun 28, 2009

Good Luck Linaze, Bounty Hunter, best vacations for you ^^

Deaod · Jun 28, 2009

It's a shame people are leaving, Eccho was doing a good job as spells moderator (while he was active).

hawk900 said:
Spells we do not want:

Ones that there are more efficient copies of out there. We don't want your crap.

Ones that "re-invent the wheel". Libraries are there for a reason.

Ones that DO NOT WORK 1.24. If spell DOES NOT WORK. We DO NOT WANT.

GUI - DON'T BOTHER. IT SUCKS.

Good list. I suggest using that one for a revised version of the spell rules.

xD.Schurke said:
that wouldnt be fair.

Its perfectly fair. GUI does suck. And without GUI submissions there would only be a handful of relevant submissions needing review.

busterkomo · Jun 28, 2009

Ones that DO NOT WORK 1.24. If spell DOES NOT WORK. We DO NOT WANT.

1.24 is not yet a standard. In fact, we should not even currently support it.

xD.Schurke · Jun 28, 2009

Deaod said:
Its perfectly fair. GUI does suck. And without GUI submissions there would only be a handful of relevant submissions needing review.

yeah GUI sucks, but the GUI users also want to get reply on their work, if the spell section should be JASS only, it would be just fair to create a small forum for those GUI users where they can present their work
just my opinion^^

M4stah · Jun 28, 2009

Just because JASS is a lot better than GUI doesn't mean you should limit all users to JASS. Learning a code language isn't a small thing. As long as the better GUI users can produce MUI and nearly leakless spells and systems, we should allow it.
(Yes I am a GUI user myself)

Deaod · Jun 28, 2009

I dont think its about MUI-ness or leakless-ness. I think its more about portability, modularity amd the general usefulness of such submissions (for the record, GUI has zero portability, zero modularity, and zero usefulness for people with vJass knowledge).

Learning a code language isn't a small thing.

It is, how do you think others learned vJass?

but the GUI users also want to get reply on their work

Tip: Dont submit things you only need feedback for. Use other forums for that instead. Submit things other people might have a use for (submitting a spell that took 4 minutes to create isnt exactly useful, since it would takes others 4 minutes to recreate it).

M4stah · Jun 28, 2009

I think 90% of teh GUI users have no idea what a vJass script means or does. Yes GUI submissions are useless to you but we have a use for them and you have a use for JASS submissions.
I understand very well how some JASSers think GUI should be banned from this site and we are having some problems with sections flooding but 30% can be rejected instantly due to breakign rules, 40% is badly made and can be rejected after 15 mins of reviewing and the rest deserves to be here because they work, are usefull and we spend as much work on it as you do on JASS

xD.Schurke · Jun 28, 2009

Deaod said:
Tip: Dont submit things you only need feedback for. Use other forums for that instead. Submit things other people might have a use for (submitting a spell that took 4 minutes to create isnt exactly useful, since it would takes others 4 minutes to recreate it).

I didn't mean unfinished work. If you create something you allways want to know if others like it :O

MasterHaosis · Jun 28, 2009

Linaze! Go and save Map section even I think it is impossible... I lost all hopes to it. I had the most hopes for it at time, for one year and half actually, but after all seems it was pointless. However this update sounds cool

HFR · Jun 28, 2009

I think Linaze can handle the waves of fail maps, but, he must be a no-life guy to do that

And don't forget Rui.

Linaze · Jun 28, 2009

I'm pretty much a no-lifer, so it won't be a problem.

HFR · Jun 28, 2009

Really? The map section is saved! HAIL! HAIL! HAIL!

Linaze · Jun 28, 2009

Don't get your hopes up to high though.
It's still OVER 400!

HFR · Jun 28, 2009

400? You have a big work ahead, good luck

Ash · Jun 28, 2009

Don't you dare sacrifice quality for quantity.

Deaod · Jun 28, 2009

the rest deserves to be here because they work, are usefull and we spend as much work on it as you do on JASS

As said before, whether a resource works or not is irrelevant.

I challenge you to name one highly complex GUI resource that doesnt leak (null boolexprs, destroying Groups, ...), doesnt use locations, doesnt involve copying of two or more triggers, doesnt involve creating globals, doesnt involve doing OE work (either copying or creating). The first two things are things GUI generally sucks at, the latter four are portability related things, which make porting a spell/system a pain in the ass (Bonus: try finding a GUI resource that reuses code extensively).

M4stah · Jun 28, 2009

Its true. JASS recources are better on most of those points. Spell importing can be a true pain in the ass for GUI and leaks are quite the problem. But GUI is attractive because it does what you want, I'm sure you can make 50-70% of all JASS systems in GUI and everybody can easily understand and modify it.

PurplePoot · Jun 28, 2009

No, you cannot.

First, because you cannot make a "system" in GUI: it lacks any modularity/portability.

Second, because if they are not libraries it defeats half the purpose.

Third, even barring the first two and having a totally useless system, it would be far more work to get there than learning Jass and then writing the system in it.

I don't plan to phase GUI out entirely, but the restrictions will definitely be getting tighter.

Azeroc · Jun 28, 2009

For GUI MUI there is index system, what allows spell to be cast 50 times in same time, Now I know nearly everything about GUI and I am moving to JASS and that progress is VERY slow for me...

xD.Schurke · Jun 28, 2009

its not a real system <.<

Septimus · Jun 28, 2009

I challenge you to name one highly complex GUI resource that doesnt leak (null boolexprs, destroying Groups, ...), doesnt use locations, doesnt involve copying of two or more triggers, doesnt involve creating globals, doesnt involve doing OE work (either copying or creating). The first two things are things GUI generally sucks at, the latter four are portability related things, which make porting a spell/system a pain in the ass (Bonus: try finding a GUI resource that reuses code extensively).

How true, even if you could do it. It would have to be done via custom script like this.

Swap
- Events
  - Unit - A unit Starts the effect of an ability
- Conditions
  - (Ability being cast) Equal to Swap (Phoenix Guard)
- Actions
  - Custom script: local real x1 = GetUnitX(GetTriggerUnit())
  - Custom script: local real x2 = GetUnitX(GetSpellTargetUnit())
  - Custom script: local real y1 = GetUnitY(GetTriggerUnit())
  - Custom script: local real y2 = GetUnitY(GetSpellTargetUnit())
  - Custom script: call SetUnitX(GetTriggerUnit(),x2)
  - Custom script: call SetUnitX(GetSpellTargetUnit(),x1)
  - Custom script: call SetUnitY(GetTriggerUnit(),y2)
  - Custom script: call SetUnitY(GetSpellTargetUnit(),y1)
  - Custom script: call DestroyEffect(AddSpecialEffect("Abilities\\Spells\\Other\\Doom\\DoomDeath.mdl",x1,y1))
  - Custom script: call DestroyEffect(AddSpecialEffect("Abilities\\Spells\\Other\\Doom\\DoomDeath.mdl",x2,y2))
  - Custom script: if IsUnitEnemy(GetSpellTargetUnit(), GetOwningPlayer(GetTriggerUnit())) == true then
  - Custom script: call UnitDamageTarget(GetTriggerUnit(),GetSpellTargetUnit(),50.00, true,false,ATTACK_TYPE_NORMAL,DAMAGE_TYPE_NORMAL,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
  - Custom script: endif

Its true. JASS recources are better on most of those points. Spell importing can be a true pain in the ass for GUI and leaks are quite the problem. But GUI is attractive because it does what you want, I'm sure you can make 50-70% of all JASS systems in GUI and everybody can easily understand and modify it.

Not really. The main reason why some spells are rather difficult to be import or edit simply because the spells maker are too freaking lazy to add documentation.

With proper documentation, it could be easily understand and modify.

PurplePoot · Jun 28, 2009

With proper documentation, GUI is still annoyingly difficult to change. That's the problem we're getting at.

HFR · Jun 28, 2009

It's just me or this thread has become a "which one is better" discussion?

PurplePoot · Jun 28, 2009

It's useful, as I'm tightening what is acceptable in GUI and this is helping me work it out. Perhaps it should be in a different thread, though.

Deaod · Jun 28, 2009

GUI is attractive because it does what you want

1.) GUI is not attractive for it working like it should, but for how organized it looks at first and for how easy it is to create simple triggers.
2.) JASS does what you want it to do as well (even more efficient)

I'm sure you can make 50-70% of all JASS systems in GUI and everybody can easily understand and modify it.

No. You cant abstract or reuse code in GUI (mainly because you cant call functions). Converting a system to GUI is pointless (because you cant really influence the order in which triggers are pasted into the war3map.j).

I am moving to JASS and that progress is VERY slow for me...

Maybe youre carrying around too much GUI baggage.

YeeShadow · Jun 28, 2009

Congratulations Linaze ^^

The real problem with the spell section is this: How Jass is promoted, first, the tutorials here suck, really, I didn't learn anything from those tutorials, actually those things make it far more difficult than it is, so, for someone that wants to move to Jass, well... it wouldn't be a great way to start, so, the tutorials must be redone (seriously, check those tutorials, if you know Jass is really simple, but if you don't... there's a lot of information missing in the "starting tutorial"), now, promote Jass as the primary languaje in the spells section, something like, "you can't have a perfect score if the spell is not in jass" or something that motivates the people like; "you'll get +10 rep if you submit one jass spell for the first time" that way more users will start to learn Jass, and then they will realize that is better to use, is easier, and more...

The "problem" is not the language you use, but the users...

Changing the subject: With the maps section, as Septimus said earlier, "resources that does not adhere to site rules such as no description could be rejected right away without any checking." I completely agree with that.
But I think there's another problem, most of the moderators are pretty rude, I know, some maps really suck, but it's not fair for someone that is starting with mapping, I've seen lot of potential for great map makers, but there's always the problem that someone comes and make an awful review (I meant rude), and the user lost the enthusiasm... I think there should be just one way to review maps for all moderators, making it fair, and I think that in a review, there must be no suggestions at all, unless the user is asking for it, becuase that limits their creativity, that's why we see 50 AoS maps and 50 Arena maps sumitted in one day... all are pretty much the same, even with the same spells... and really, I'm tired of seeing the same with another name.