Creative passive ultimates

[Apostle]

Ok, after some experimenting with the editor I found a way to combine several passive abilities into one ultimate, let me give you an example, let's say you want a passive ultimate that gives the hero 200 extra hp, a hp regeneration aura, and reduces the the damage the hero takes from spells.


first off you modify engineering bonus and make it an ultimate, create 2 spellbook abilities,
one empty and the second containing

-item life bonus (lesser) for 200hp
-a modified unholy aura that only regenerates hp
-a modified Elune's grace ability that reduces the damage the hel takes from spells

Make sure both spell books have 0 for their x position and -11 for their y position so they will not be visible

The hero has to have the empty spellbook as a default ability
Modify the engineering upgrade so that it upgrades from the empty spellbook to the one containing the abilities when learned, give the hero the engineering upgrade ability (rename it to make it more fitting)

Now you have essentially combined several passives into one ultimate

I want some creative ideas for these passive ultimates however, I was thinking of something like

Divine shell - Reduces the damage taken from magic attacks by 50% and adds 8 extra armor to the hero

Anyway please provide your ideas for this type of ability, I will give rep for your contributions

 

[noob2]

Well passive books did already exist a long time ago.
You can also use a script instead of engineering upgrade if you are afraid of making WC3 crash.

 

[Apostle]

I don't think you understood what I was saying, this basically allows you to combine several abilities under the umbrella of being one passive ultimate, I just need some creative ideas to make things interesting

 

[ISL]

That is a nice way to do this, yet, there're better ways to achieve that in triggers. Why won't you use them? (Said a person who sticks to MUI and who doesn't want to learn Jass lol)
Just joking. Your method is nice because it's doable through OE.

Spoiler: The trigger way

You can add your spellbook to a hero when he learns his ultimate,
And then you can disable it through triggers so it would be invisible (The spellbook is disabled and can't be accessed, but all the passives inside of it are functioning).
I didn't know that setting a spell's X to 0 and Y to -11 would do the same tho.

Now here are some ideas, or, precisely speaking, combinations:

1. The most OP combination - Critical Strike, Cleave, Life Steal.

2. A Tank combination - Hero receives "Hardened Skin" and additional armor.

3. The Master of War (a general's pack) - Some auras which would give armor or additional damage to all allied units.

4. Lightning Speed - Hero receives additional movement speed and a permanent Lightning Shield (modified Immolate).

P.S. I never honestly liked the idea of passive ultimates, have you seen those in more modern MOBA games? LoL, Hots, in these games all heroes have at least 4 abilites and none of these are straightforward passives. These abilites may have secondary passive effects, but they're also bound to have active effects. Also almost all of the heroes have their Traits - main passives which complete a hero's gameplay. HOTS also has it's awesome idea of talents which makes the gameplay more colorful. Now think about what we can see in Dota 2 with its old concepts - Wraith/Skeleton King: 1 active which is a singel-target CC and 3 damned passives. How much fun does it bring and how much skill does it take? Rly.
I haven't played Dota 2 for a long, but it surely won't fascinate me now. It played awesome as Dota in WC3, but the times change. It's laid a foundation for a new genre, but now the game is behind it.

 

[noob2]

I don't think you understood what I was saying, this basically allows you to combine several abilities under the umbrella of being one passive ultimate, I just need some creative ideas to make things interesting

Well a passive book is a book full of passives that you hide by disallowing the book itself.
It is commonly used for making one skill add more than one passive(like spend one point in spiral of awesome and you get 5% chance or reducing attack damage of 100 and 1% chance of casting Armageddon on hit and 5% chance of bashing) or allowing to put more effects in objects.
Oh and before dota there was aeon of strife in starcraft 1

 

[Blake8]

@Apostle, try asking @Shar Dundred what combinations of passive abilities make a unit op, dont bother explaining the mechanics of what you're trying to do because it'll just make things more confusing

 

[noob2]

The objective is not to have an op unit: for that you just take the passive:instant victory: when you attack a trigger show you the win screen and show the lose screen to the others.
What he wants is passives that works fine in place of an ultimate.

 

[Blake8]

It has to be kinda op in order to replace an active ultimate

 

[cleavinghammer]

Last Stand: Gains increased armor, damage and attackspeed at low HP (melee heroes only). The effect is lost if healed.

Guardian Angel: When an attack or spell is about to kill the hero, teleports the hero X distance away from the attacking unit.

Fount of Magic: Places a positive/negative buff on a nearby allied/hostile unit every X seconds.

Unending Torment: Enemies that attack the hero get a random negative buff.

Godshield: Blocks an attack every X seconds.

Magic Mirror: Whenever a spell targets the hero, cancels the spell and casts it (the unit version) back at the caster.

 

[Apostle]

I think you guys misunderstood, the abilities I'm trying to use for this have to be without triggers, and also Im not trying to get a super op ability, its more that a passive ultimate has to be equally useful as compared to its active counterpart, therefore it pretty much has to be stronger than any regular passive ability

 

[A]mun]

^ These are some cool ideas.

 

[Lord_Earthfire]

In fact, i will keep that idea in mind. It will surely help when there is a new non-Trigger Hero-contest (or challenge) rolling up.

 

[Nowow]

I think your best bet for a very simple and powerful passive ult is a slight modification of the "permanent immolation" ability. You can tweak the ability to damage all units in a range of 500-600 by 1-2 damage per second. This might sound like a little, but can by potentially deadly for low HP units, and will turn any continued fight with your hero to a very problematic situation.

 

[Blake8]

Ok here are some ideas:

Spell amulet shield ability + resistant skin

spell amulet shield ability + 8 bonus armor

20 attack bonus + 8 bonus defense

permanent immolition + spell immunity

200 hp bonus + upgrade all other abilities

 

[Blake8]

also you can use my second chance ability combined with other abilities (from the mountain map I send you) what this ability does is when a hero is defeated he transforms into a voidwalker and if the voidwalker is not defeated within a certain interval the hero re-appears

 

[Apostle]

@Blake8 rs

That's not a bad idea, I'll try it out!

also although Im not a super huge fan of Arkain I liked Gardon's ability set, his war aura is super op, and is one of the things which makes him so damn powerful in the field, now I dont wanna copy this but I want something similar; a support ability which makes a tremendous difference in the field

 

[Lord Siler]

@Apostle Which type of hero are you trying to have?

Offensive (spellcaster or warrior)

Defensive (tank)

healer

support

other type (?)

specify please cause this would make things a lot clearer for everyone and will be of great importance to determining the type of ability the hero needs

 

[Apostle]

Basically a support type hero

 

[Lord Siler]

Hmm, maybe try upgrading all the other abilities, plus giving it hardened skin and partial resistance to magic or are you trying to make the unit extremely strong through this ultimate?

 

[Apostle]

What do you mean through this ultimate?

 

[Lord Siler]

I mean I remember playing a map where you basically have a hero that gains ~75hp per level (he initially has 600hp at level 1) and 1275 hp at level 10, however he gets an extra 250 hp and 20 attack permanently when his ultimate is learned (like a permanent avatar) is this what youre trying to accomplish ?

 

[Apostle]

No, just trying to give a hero a really good passive ultimate

 

[Lord Siler]

Try giving it an ability that reduces magic damage by a great deal (elune's grace), extra armor, and an ability very similar to immolition that damages nearby attackers (spiked shell)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Passive ultimates are boring and therefore suck. In general, passives are hard to make fun. Its easy to make passives useful. But useful doesn't mean fun.

 

[Apostle]

I'm just trying to make a good supportive-type hero, thats all that really matters to me at this point

 

[Colonel Aster]

My advice is to download wos book 6 from here Campaign Creations - Wanderers of Sorceria and look through all the passives in the editor, youll probably find something that'll make a passive ultimate, good luck!

 

[cleavinghammer]

Avatar of the Firegod: Permanent Immolation, Orb of Fire, Spell Immunity.

Necromastery: Create Ghoul Corpse, Feedback, Brilliance Aura.

Winter's Herald: Frost Attack, Freezing Breath, reverse Endurance Aura.

Unyielding Defender: Devotion Aura, extra HP, reverse Command Aura.

Barrage is always good, but it can't stack with orb abilities.

 

[Cuore]

Make your friends hate you with passive ultimates that revolve on the theme: 'taxes'.
Example:

• Taxes: X amount of resources is periodically transferred to you from your enemies.
• Syphon upkeep: (while the hero carrying this is alive) you pay less upkeep costs. Your enemies will pay the part you spare instead of you.
• Aura of bounty: every enemy unit you kill within the aura effect gives you money like it happens with creeps. The controller loses the corresponding money unless he has no more money to spare.
• Syphon supply: raises your supply cap and lowers that of the enemies

and many other hateful mechanics on the theme.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Master Assassin: Critical Strike, Envenomed Weapons, Shadowmeld

Saboteur: Resistant Skin, Liquid Fire, Demolish

Lord of Tempests: Orb of Lightning, Immolation (with Lightning Shield effect), Phoenix Fire (with Monsoon effect)

Warrior Monk: Drunken Brawler, Bash, reverse Trueshot Aura

Harbinger of Decay: Slow Poison, Disease Cloud, reverse Unholy Aura

What active abilities does the hero have?

 

[Apostle]

@Colonel Aster

I've just tried doing that, they dont have too many creative passives...idk maybe I'll try looking for it again

 

[ArchDuke]

i made abilities before, what i would reccomend would be to create a concept of an ability, lets say you want to protect the unit from physical attacks you break down the concept into parts like additional armor, maybe a spiked shell like ability, or maybe an reverse command aura, so you have several skills which together are the components of such an ability

if youre trying to make the unit overall stronger i would suggest giving it anywhere between 200 and 350 extra hp, bonus armor, and better hp regeneration

for resistance against magic, give it elunes grace, amulet of spell shield, and reverse brillaance aura

for offensive heros give it a large bonus to attack, immolition and vampiric aura

for a tank unit give hardened skin, 300 hp bonus, and extra health regeneration

 

[Lord Siler]

@Azarus1 That's a good way to explain it

 

[Kyrbi0]

Ok, after some experimenting with the editor I found a way to combine several passive abilities into one ultimate, let me give you an example, let's say you want a passive ultimate that gives the hero 200 extra hp, a hp regeneration aura, and reduces the the damage the hero takes from spells.


first off you modify engineering bonus and make it an ultimate, create 2 spellbook abilities,
one empty and the second containing

-item life bonus (lesser) for 200hp
-a modified unholy aura that only regenerates hp
-a modified Elune's grace ability that reduces the damage the hel takes from spells

Make sure both spell books have 0 for their x position and -11 for their y position so they will not be visible

The hero has to have the empty spellbook as a default ability
Modify the engineering upgrade so that it upgrades from the empty spellbook to the one containing the abilities when learned, give the hero the engineering upgrade ability (rename it to make it more fitting)

Now you have essentially combined several passives into one ultimate

I want some creative ideas for these passive ultimates however, I was thinking of something like

Divine shell - Reduces the damage taken from magic attacks by 50% and adds 8 extra armor to the hero

Anyway please provide your ideas for this type of ability, I will give rep for your contributions

#1, this is a fantastic little way to skip the Trigger Editor altogether; great work, mucho apreciado. : )

#2... Passive Ultimates. *sigh*.
So in the standard Warcraft game, there are 24 heroes, and of all of them, there is only 1, singular Passive Ultimate; Reincarnate, on the Tauren Chieftain.

One can draw a few conclusions from the fact that only 1/24 Ultimates are Passive. Personally, I'm in the school of thought that "well, it's cool & definitely useful, but overall it's pretty boring". Blizzard really beefed it up with the TC, in fact, because he not only has a passive Ultimate but a regular passive as well, an Aura.

What this does is make a hero that is, essentially, "attack-move & forget". Sure he's got either Warstomp or Shockwave, but the latter is the only one with any kind of meaningful player interaction; give a Tauren Chieftain Warstomp, Endurance Aura & Reincarnate & you've basically got just a big beefy brawler. ((NOTE: I'm saying this like it's a bad thing. And for a hero-centric game like HotS or DotA, it probably is... But remember the Tauren Chieftain is not even a TFT-hero, but a racial hero from RoC. One of the first things players might play with. Him being simple may very well be an intentional part of his design, and could be very important to mimic).

So since I don't know what you're doing (what project this is for), or what the hero does (aside from "support"; what are his other abilities?), it's really hard to say.

Cleavinghammer has given you looooaaaads of amazing ideas already, so you've got that covered. Really the question is, "is this what my project/this hero needs"?

But I think it's clear that, as aforementioned, if you go with a Passive Ultimate, it needs to be a pretty fantastic effect to cover for the fact that they are missing out on an Active Ultimate.

 

[cleavinghammer]

I always thought it was because the chieftain had low mana. Maybe give the hero an autocast spell that's improved by the ultimate.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I always thought it was because the chieftain had low mana.

That's a fair analysis too (though it kind begs the "chicken vs egg" question).

 

[cleavinghammer]

I believe there was one analysis that found he had the highest unaltered Strength of all RoC heroes, so giving the great big meatshield that comes back when you kill it very little mana does make some sense.

Another alternative is to have a build that only uses the three first spells (I know I rarely use Resurrection or Death and Decay), and use the ultimate slot to upgrade those three spells instead. Not just numerically, but something like adding buffs/debuffs to the spell, casting a different, minor spell at the same time, double casting, knockback, etc.

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

How about making it purely the users choice?

In my game you can pick your powers, but with your system you can go one step further can create your powers.

Allowing a player to pick any three spells and combine them, allows for MASSIVE creativity in their pick of a hero

 

[ISL]

Not just numerically, but something like adding buffs/debuffs to the spell, casting a different, minor spell at the same time, double casting, knockback, etc.

That's the idea of my beloved Talent Systems.

How about making it purely the users choice?

In my game you can pick your powers, but with your system you can go one step further can create your powers.

Allowing a player to pick any three spells and combine them, allows for MASSIVE creativity in their pick of a hero

A nice coincidence is that I plan to make an alike concept for my project... but this project is a campaign.

Each playable character will have a bunch of abilities which are unique for this hero. But the player will be able to take only 4 Actives + 1 Main Talent + 2 Special abilites(Or 2 passives)

All abilities are available from the 1st level and their numerical growth is automatic. (damage grows with hero level)

The skill points which are gained with every level-up are spent on Talents which apply additional effects to a spell or enhance the hero's gameplay at whole.

List of available talents is determined not only by the abilites chosen by player, but also by their combinations (fire+ice synergy for an archmage) and the Main Talent (Offence-Defence-Support specialisations).

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

That's the idea of my beloved Talent Systems.


A nice coincidence is that I plan to make an alike concept for my project... but this project is a campaign.

Each playable character will have a bunch of abilities which are unique for this hero. But the player will be able to take only 4 Actives + 1 Main Talent + 2 Special abilites(Or 2 passives)

All abilities are available from the 1st level and their numerical growth is automatic. (damage grows with hero level)

The skill points which are gained with every level-up are spent on Talents which apply additional effects to a spell or enhance the hero's gameplay at whole.

List of available talents is determined not only by the abilites chosen by player, but also by their combinations (fire+ice synergy for an archmage) and the Main Talent (Offence-Defence-Support specialisations).

Sounds complex, I wish you luck

 

[Lord_Earthfire]

Even though this topic was about a method to pump multiple passive skills into a single one, we came to the point where this became a discussion like "what is a good passive ultinate". While i like that question, i think it would be better to move that part into a thread of it own, since else it dissolves the main focus of that one.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I mean, it's his thread; if he wants to split it off, cool. But it seems he appreciates the divergence.

 

[Lord_Earthfire]

Good point then.

Then i will contribute to the discussion, too:

Creating ultimates are always quite akward. Their main problem is that they shouldnt contain the main mechanic of your hero, since they have acess to it only in later in the game while leaving the hero blank and weak in the early game (quite a reason why riki in dota 2 got his ultimate, permanent invisibility, moved into his base abilities)
On thde other hand, because of the "rule of cool", they tend to degenerate into damage-heavy skills or just huge buffs, which, while they look interesting, turn out to be non-brainer (like half of lol's ultimates).

While both points are already an issue with active ultimates, they get more serious with passive ultimates. Either they want to be something awesome, only to turn into the core mechanic, or they become just plain buffs, without helping their gameplay.

So they need to hut that sweet middle ground, in which they help the hero as a whole while not turning into the core. That point is what we can call " synergy with the kit as a whole". But how do we achieve that?
Lets enter tauren chieftain (the example talked about earlier). His whole kit revolve around controling the field. An aoe speed boost and cc with good damage to boot. Looks like a prime target to me. Then there vomes his ultimate. With a long cooldown you need to play around. Wgen you kill him, he only comes back, which burns recources and gives ample of time to damage your own troops. So it brings the enemy into a decisdion: Attacking the army wide buffer or trying to fight the troops with a disadvantage, hoping you can burn his recources better than he does? Bonus points if that tauren carries aura items. While that ultimate looks plain from an owner point if view, it amplifies the decision his enemies have. That skill wouldnt have that impact when the far ser had it, since he has a different role. The Mountain king's ultimate fills out the same camp as the chieftain's one. Its simple AF, but it brings survivability, especially against being nuked down.

So i always find it akward to talk about ultimates without considering the base kit the hero has. So with the following examples, i would give directly the type of hero i have in mind when creating that one:

Ability: Arcane stream
Herotype: one with medium cooldown active burst abilities, like lich (well wjen he hadnt dark ritual). Should encourage hit and run tactics
Effect:
While the hero has 10% of his base mana, his mana regeneration is increased by 300%. This regeneration lingers 15 seconds after exceeding that cap.

Ability: Unleash hatred
Herotype: fragile burst hero. Should discourage attacking. On a tank or support this would be too punishing for the opponent. Can be countered by burst damage or ranged units.
Effect:
On death, deals X damage to every enemy in an area of 200.

 

[Himperion]

Nice infromation, but the X=0 Y= -11 didn't worked for me the spellbook always appears in the X=2 Y=1 position of the hero button card.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Nice infromation, but the X=0 Y= -11 didn't worked for me the spellbook always appears in the X=2 Y=1 position of the hero button card.

Whaaaat? What version & localization do you have?

 

[Himperion]

Whaaaat? What version & localization do you have?

Spanish 1.27b

 

[Kyrbi0]

Huh. It was on my English 1.2...7? I think? I haven't gotten any of the new patches (is that 1.26 then?)

 

[Himperion]

It appears that it got "fixed" "broken" and "fixed" again in 1.28... something something.

Mac hipsters ruining everyone else lives ; )

About passives, after trying several combos today. In General an ultimate passive is more benefical for mana instensive characters, be for having a low pool of mana and needing to micro their attacks, or because his skills are too good that you're using these on a constant basis to keep the battle going.

I'm trying to work something for range attackers, i like the idea of a mage class with a passive ulti.

-Edit

1.28.5

Is even more broken than before, the spellbook doesn't add the abilities, and the engenering skill can't even level up.

-Edit again

It works with some new kinks, for example, the spellbooks can't be in the hero ability category or the effects inside don't add to the unit.

And to test the map you need to select TFT on the game first, or the map will load a ROC version.

 

[millzy]

Heres somthing in general maybe

What about a ulti that adds to the other spells using the engineer ability e.g extra damage,adds effects like extra projectles to missle type spells, cool down reduction, bigger AoE,or even causes x to happen when u cast a spells

 

[The_Messenger]

In my opinion passive ultimates are a bit better than active ones, from the point of view of scripting. An active ultimate would be difficult to piece together and make it work considering bugs would be hard to squeeze out.
A well balanced passive ability and 2-3 active abilities is enough to build a powerful hero in theory. It just depends on how broken the passive would be like say Dota's Drow Ranger ultimate that gave her 30+ Agi passive, or Centaur Warchief's 30+ Str, or even Bloodclaw's 75% base damage bonus aura from Shar Dundred's custom campaign (that actually stacked with other damage increasing auras, I've had units with 100+ auto attack damage); those were some of the most broken passive ultimates I've seen on heroes that came out of WC3.

 

[Kyrbi0]

In my opinion passive ultimates are a bit better than active ones, from the point of view of scripting. An active ultimate would be difficult to piece together and make it work considering bugs would be hard to squeeze out.
A well balanced passive ability and 2-3 active abilities is enough to build a powerful hero in theory. It just depends on how broken the passive would be like say Dota's Drow Ranger ultimate that gave her 30+ Agi passive, or Centaur Warchief's 30+ Str, or even Bloodclaw's 75% base damage bonus aura from Shar Dundred's custom campaign (that actually stacked with other damage increasing auras, I've had units with 100+ auto attack damage); those were some of the most broken passive ultimates I've seen on heroes that came out of WC3.

They may be easier to make, but the fact of the matter is if you are making something meant to fit in with standard Warcraft, passive Ultimates are the exception to the rule; very uncommon.