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Blizzard Classic Games division dismantled

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pyf

pyf

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StarCraft news from the Real World from *eight(!)* days ago, for those who care about the future of *any* of Blizzard's Classic RTS games:
StarCraft Patch 1.23.8 Notes - General Discussion - Blizzard Forums

[...] Maybe I would concentrate on single player maps with creeps only (no melee AI). Then you could add some features which the regular Reforged doesn't bring with it.[...] So people would have a reason to use YOUR version instead of Reforged.

If you really can recreate multiplayer games better with resyncs/joining the game while it's already running then you would certainly get LOTS OF players because you could start some RPG server. [...]
These suggestions are imho one of the best ways to get this PoC/pet project axed by Blizzard, for obvious reasons.

The main problem is IF they patch the game or change things, you will have to maintain your code all the time or your version will have disadvantages but I think after Reforged you might be sure that there won't be really big updates. [...]

There were projects like that in the past but used code injection etc. at the original game which was a waste of time since they changed much with Reforged, so your approach is definitely better but probably more work.
For the record, Blizzard has been providing a full offline standalone installer legacy version of WC3, which is free to download without any Battle.net account, in all supported languages and for any supported OS. This legacy version, which is v1.27a2 and which still requires a valid CD-Key to install after its installer files have been downloaded, is not bound to get modified anytime soon afaik, and might be suitable for extended hacking/modding.
 
Level 25
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1,686
I really was almost going to DM you earlier, Barade, and clicked on create conversation and give it the title "A Man of Sound Principle" or something like that based on your earlier post that you wished you could contribute C++ code to WC3 itself. That thought really resonated with me.



But this... Why would you troll me like this? Do you want to hurt me?

I do not know how to make Warcraft III profitable or to make a salary from modding Warcraft III. I would not go to a respectable company like Blizzard and propose that I had experience nor knew how, because I do not have experience making a game profitable. Nor would I probably enjoy learning how to make a game become profitable. Because the means to make games become profitable is already evident. You have to use social manipulation to make people play them, then use the social manipulation to make those people pay you.

Anyone who applies to Blizzard is making a public statement that every purchase of Reforged, or every purchase of the future "Reforged Expansion" idea that supposedly would be the point of working there starting now, should partly go to this new applicant because of how good their ideas are. Imagine if I asked everyone who purchased Reforged to send me $0.60 right now because of how great I am and how I could make an expansion. That is hysterical. None of you would do it. So, what right have I to convince them to let me don the Blizzard moniker to make that same claim?

Or, if you're telling me to go work for my former WoW dealership, I am just not interested. WoW already exists so I would not get to have the fun of making it. The area for improvement now is in manipulation, and I don't feel like I would particularly enjoy using video games to manipulate people any better than any other job -- but there is a risk I might hate using video games in that way.

There is just no reason for Blizzard to hire me. If I had wanted to be that kind of person, I could have been trying to greenlight my own game IP on Steam and get "into the industry". But I did not do that and I am not doing that. The MDX/BLP/MPQ technology entertains me. So I created Retera Model Studio and now I am making a toy game engine to let me mod Warcraft III with no rules (i.e. I can do 3x5 command card, 3x3 item inventory, etc with incredibly minimal effort). What I am doing is the opposite of what their company will do. The Warcraft brand's value is now in manipulation. If I was a good employee, surely they would pressure me to switch over and make a Clash of Clans replica called Clash of Durotar Guilds or something. The fact that they would pressure for that is not the problem. The problem is that they would be measurably right to do so (financially).

There aren't people that want to buy Warcraft III. I preordered Reforged 50+ times, but when people saw I was doing that and just buying it on smurf accounts they got me to gift it to others instead. Then, at least one of the people I gifted to refunded. I wasn't buying it for them, I was buying it for the game. To me that's disgusting to see my effort to support the game be thwarted. But I was nice to them and didn't really say it that way to the guy at the time. But that's how it is. People really hate Warcraft III that much. I can't fix that. Family who played Warcraft 3 with me in my childhood called me on Discord and when I told them I was playing Reforged custom games they commanded me to stop playing and I gave in to the pressure and quit out of my game where I was a healer in an RPG and left the group to die. People really hate Warcraft III that much.

I am making the ability for me to keep modding Warcraft III because I am alone in what I want, and quirky, and just having fun. I will probably add a Lightning Editor to the Object Editor. I will probably add Weather Effect Editor tab, too. I will probably add a native to detect right clicks on "framehandle" instances in map scripts. I will probably add "Stats - Gold Cost" and "Stats - Lumber Cost" to every ability in the ability editor, and make "Order String Use/Turn On" in the ability editor (or some similar new flag if necessary) actually change the OrderID used for each ability so that two abilities that are both copied from the same in-game ability do not stack and bug in-game (maybe we would have to add a column in AbilityData.slk that finally exposes to the user what the default value is... some item abilities do not currently have a string mapped to their ID... so this one might take a while, maybe it's idealistic, etc). For now, on Warsmash, ability commands send both OrderID and HandleID and so there is no ambiguity and you just have perfect alignment between what the user wanted to command the unit to use, and what it uses. But supporting Issue*Order natives will require me to implement the "best guess" at HandleID and re-introduce the problematic conflicts we experience on Blizzard's engine.

There is not a Blizzard or a thing to apply to in order to do improvements to Warcraft III. That ship already sailed. Kam told me to apply in 2017 over and over, but I did not. The careers page never had a job description open for "guy who wants to hack away at making Warcraft III more moddable as a hobby with no motivation to make any profits from it for the next ten years." There was never a position open like that. When I asked about it, Kam said some of his friends had to apply 50 times to get jobs at Blizzard. So then I got slightly "offended" privately in a certain kind of way. I was nice about it, but in my head I was thinking that I didn't want to work at Blizzard, I wanted to mod Warcraft 3. So, I said to Kam, maybe I can be the guy who gives you suggestions from the outside, and that can be how I contribute.

I said to him at this time, and this is a direct quote from the chat log in 2017:


But what I really meant at the time is that obviously it was super predictable that since they had 15 years of radio silence on War3 -- not really silence, since there was nobody to do any talking -- it was pretty evident that people working at Blizzard do not work without purpose. So, if I was supposed to be a War3 related worker, then that would mean there was decided to be a financial opportunity on War3. Once that opportunity was met, predictably, there would be "the end", the point in time when I would have to decide whether to work somewhere else at Blizzard. In short, I foresaw where we are now.

I'm not interested in a "the end" to modding War3. I do not want to be the guy who does the server support for the Call of Duty ads on Blizzard Launcher. Why end up moving to work somewhere else in their company and climb their corporate ladder of nonsense only to ultimately be laid off or forced to work on mobile games or rapacious WoW in-game purchase systems if I could instead go and code Warsmash as a hobby while sustaining myself with some other job and some other means of contributing to society? And if Blizzard does a C&D on Warsmash then I could go back to modding Patch 1.26, I guess, and just make a conscious decision to accept the government enforced suffering.

I only suggest that Blizzard gives me the source code to War3 sometimes as a form of internet trolling in the hopes of maybe some day achieving social change towards a world where something like that could happen. They are not going to actually do it. Have any of you guys played WoW?

Well I have to respect all of your decisions and you apparently know your shit if you are already digging that deep in the Warcraft engine. I myself would certainly also prefer an Open Source version with much more modding possibilities and a better performance, support for custom campaigns etc. When I was younger I started wc3lib to provide better modding tools (but not to recreate the game), so you can see that I like Open Source tools but it was reaaaally much work only to get some things done. Is there any way to download/test your version. If it is not downloadable somewhere or on GitHub I guess people won't contribute much or find bugs (if you care about that).

The SLK-Editors like weather effects etc. sound awesome. I thought about similar things when I tried to recreate the object editor with Qt since all the SLK files could be modified. The possibilties for editors are endless. You could also create a frame editor for the TOC files etc.

The reason I suggested to apply at Blizzard is because they might take down your project. If that's not the case I would gladly develop my maps for a version which works better than Reforged and offers more modding possibilties.
I don't know if the US law applies everywhere. Maybe if you have the project on a server not in the US they can't do anything or you could at least distribute some binary, so people can try your version if you need input/feedback.
For now I have only seen YouTube videos of your project.

A great example of a fanmade project is the GTA San Andreas multiplayer which is an amazing community-drived project and lead to hundreds of servers: SA-MP San Andreas Multiplayer mod for Grand Theft Auto (GTA SA)
If Blizzard is not stupid they won't do anything to your project but look what they did to Reforged and the hostbots etc.

StarCraft news from the Real World from *eight(!)* days ago, for those who care about the future of *any* of Blizzard's Classic RTS games:
StarCraft Patch 1.23.8 Notes - General Discussion - Blizzard Forums


These suggestions are imho one of the best ways to get this PoC/pet project axed by Blizzard, for obvious reasons.


For the record, Blizzard has been providing a full offline standalone installer legacy version of WC3, which is free to download without any Battle.net account, in all supported languages and for any supported OS. This legacy version, which is v1.27a2 and which still requires a valid CD-Key to install after its installer files have been downloaded, is not bound to get modified anytime soon afaik, and might be suitable for extended hacking/modding.

Well I think the first question is what your goal is. When I create a map I want it to be played by as many people as possible. If you are developing a map for the old game version then you need to provide all these instructions and somebody has to be willing to do this to play your map/game.

If you do it only for yourself, it's different. When I made a modification which had to be used with a custom .exe file people wouldn't play it because it was simply too much effort. Sounds stupid but it is the truth. If you want to reach as many players as possible you either have to bring some extra features or a simple way to play or even both or your project is soooo amazing that all people will do anything to play it.

Otherwise, most players simply use the blizzard store/app since they play other games there and might install the official version and look what is hosted online.
 
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pyf

pyf

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Well I think the first question is what your goal is. [...]
The first question is what Blizzard's goals are.

[...] When I create a map I want it to be played by as many people as possible. If you are developing a map for the old game version then you need to provide all these instructions and somebody has to be willing to do this to play your map/game.
Legacy versions have the lowest disk footprint, CPU/GPU requirements and memory usage.

Because v1.27a2 is provided by Blizzard, it is safe to say that anything that runs on it is/will be tested to run on the latest version of the game, which is also provided by Blizzard.

The v1.27a2 version comes with an installer. I suppose people can double click on an installer? I highly suggest to install this version in a folder which is different than the default one.

If you do it only for yourself, it's different. When I made a modification which had to be used with a custom .exe file people wouldn't play it because it was simply too much effort. Sounds stupid but it is the truth. If you want to reach as many players as possible you either have to bring some extra features or a simple way to play or even both or your project is soooo amazing that all people will do anything to play it.
Fyi:
WFE - Warcraft Feature Extender

... plus maybe this post and other things here and there on THW that already exist since many years.


Note: I suggest also giving v2.19 a try, so you can get rid of (parts of) the interface when playing your favorite maps / campaigns.

Otherwise, most players simply use the blizzard store/app since they play other games there and might install the official version and look what is hosted online.
Blizzard's official downloads page seems to be deceptive, because I am not sure it allows to get the Legacy downloader.
 
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Level 12
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There aren't people that want to buy Warcraft III. I preordered Reforged 50+ times, but when people saw I was doing that and just buying it on smurf accounts they got me to gift it to others instead. Then, at least one of the people I gifted to refunded. I wasn't buying it for them, I was buying it for the game. To me that's disgusting to see my effort to support the game be thwarted. But I was nice to them and didn't really say it that way to the guy at the time. But that's how it is. People really hate Warcraft III that much. I can't fix that. Family who played Warcraft 3 with me in my childhood called me on Discord and when I told them I was playing Reforged custom games they commanded me to stop playing and I gave in to the pressure and quit out of my game where I was a healer in an RPG and left the group to die. People really hate Warcraft III that much.
People haven't had any problem buying Warcraft 3 in the past, or other blizzard games for that matter. Some bought it multiple times.

I "only" bought RoC and TFT once, but I bought SC2 WoL twice (never bought the expansions though cause HotS ruined the game). I also bought WoW up to cataclysm before quitting. I also bought Diablo 3 when it came out cause I'd heard so many great things about D2, but D3 was and is shit so I didn't play it for more than a week.


I was hyped for Reforged but I didn't buy it, I've learnt my lesson not to preorder anymore and to wait for games to come out because the game industry likes to release unfinished games and then MAYBE fix it with patches over time. (And I REALLY learned my lesson when I paid for the vaporware that's Ever Quest Next)


Sure, some people don't want to and don't pay for anything (and btw I didn't say anything before but isn't the largest non-paying playerbase actually from China and SEA? Makes me curious what the actual sales numbers are and how they compare to the west and whether or not they're a niche market since apparently they're the biggest), but people were and are still willing to pay for a Warcraft 3 Remaster (and somehow there's people who haven't even refunded Reforged), so don't come with some BS saying people hate Warcraft 3 and aren't willing to pay for it.


Yes, I'm not willing to pay for Rerforged, and I don't understand how someone could be other than out of pure good will just to simply support the development like you did (and how large of a cut actually went to the people working on Reforged anyway?) or if they don't know that they're buying an unfinished and unpolished game that will probably never be complete.


If I had to buy Warcraft 3 again, I would rather buy RoC and TFT again.
 
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Think about how old Warcraft 2 is. Likely you're just as old or older.
Think about how old Warcraft 3 is. Likely most of the Warcraft3 modders are twice as old by now.

Most of you should be responsible adults, and skilled enough to band together and develop your own game at this point. Like Retera said, wasting your time on any form of social media will amount to nothing but negativity and disappointment.

I have news for you: The technology is way cheaper and exponentially better than when it was 2002. Scary lawyers will not stop you either (look at quakejs.com as an example, coincidentally Quake being an Activision IP). The original Blizzard team has shown you how to make a good game and none of that leadership and inspiration is copyrighted. Now make it and stop waiting for Bobby Kotik and his army of serfs to make one for you. Or not. Up to you really.

Part of growing up is experiencing the pain of loss and moving on.

The war (no pun intended) is lost. Move on.

Or stay around and enjoy the fireplace tales a while longer.
 
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Think about how old Warcraft 2 is. Likely you're just as old or older.
Think about how old Warcraft 3 is. Likely most of the Warcraft3 modders are twice as old by now.

Most of you should be responsible adults, and skilled enough to band together and develop your own game at this point. Like Retera said, wasting your time on any form of social media will amount to nothing but negativity and disappointment.

I have news for you: The technology is way cheaper and exponentially better than when it was 2002. Scary lawyers will not stop you either (look at quakejs.com as an example, coincidentally Quake being an Activision IP). The original Blizzard team has shown you how to make a good game and none of that leadership and inspiration is copyrighted. Now make it and stop waiting for Bobby Kotik and his army of serfs to make one for you. Or not. Up to you really.

Part of growing up is experiencing the pain of loss and moving on.

The war (no pun intended) is lost. Move on.

Or stay around and enjoy the fireplace tales a while longer.
I can't make heads or tails of this. You are trying to make a call for people to "grow up" and yet you posted the most juvenile advice ever.
 
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There aren't people that want to buy Warcraft III. I preordered Reforged 50+ times, but when people saw I was doing that and just buying it on smurf accounts they got me to gift it to others instead. Then, at least one of the people I gifted to refunded. I wasn't buying it for them, I was buying it for the game. To me that's disgusting to see my effort to support the game be thwarted. But I was nice to them and didn't really say it that way to the guy at the time. But that's how it is. People really hate Warcraft III that much. I can't fix that. Family who played Warcraft 3 with me in my childhood called me on Discord and when I told them I was playing Reforged custom games they commanded me to stop playing and I gave in to the pressure and quit out of my game where I was a healer in an RPG and left the group to die. People really hate Warcraft III that much.

First things first: I definetly did not plan to hurt you. I'm sorry if I did so!
I refunded your gift a week before release because I knew that at the time I would not enjoy Reforged after the closed Beta was released. I still own two copies of RoC and TFT respectively, and I would purchase Reforged at any point I was convinced of it. However, at the time I only considered my own motivation to "apply" to you to purchase me the game, not your motives to actually do so. What were these motives? Well, probably I wanted to save the 30€, but I was also curious whether you would purchase these games. You did not fail to mention in your videos that you wanted to support the game, I just felt that the dream was over before it began.
Was I selfish? I did not think so, I thought that I had found out that Reforged did not work for me and I would want you not to spend your money on me if it was not appreciated at the time. But possibly I was selfish. Did I want to hurt Blizzard? Possibly. I was certain that this was not the game I had hoped for, seeing how clunky the menu had become and after release also seeing the 20-30 FPS in game when using WINE on my 2015-ish hardware - with TFT instead of Reforged graphics, going down to 2 FPS in certain custom games. 1.26 had run without any issues on the same hardware. Did I want to hurt you? At no time! I thought you were some kind of crazy genius. Not a character that's easy to like for everyone, but one that is sincere, honest, funny in his very own way.

You showed understanding for me being disappointed with Reforged and for my reasoning. I though you were sincere, but you may be even more polite than being honest, which can be a virtue at times, less so at others. Thanks for voicing your opinion more clearly here, and I think I will give you some credit for what you did for the community by giving a public reply.
So yes, I did actually not consider your motives. I was just sure that I could not enjoy the game as it was, with host bots still broken, my setup not working with it.

After I refunded, you told me about your plans and we had a real nice chat about Warmash. Retera, you are certainly one of the most gifted persons around here, very much so even. I did not expect at that time that you would get nearly as far as you have gotten. At this time, if I recall it correctly, your plan was still to develop Warmash not all on your own. You are impressive!

One more thing: I think that you joining Blizzard could have really made a difference for Reforged. But of course you are right, it would have compromised you in one way or another. Could it have made you happy nevertheless? That's something that only you can give an answer to, and I see that you are quite certain that it could not have. But I am quite happy to see that you were asked to apply to the team, because I had asked myself why you with so much talent and dedication had not joined forced.

Thanks for being so open about it.

All the best, man with the glasses.


PS: Would you say that if the community financed your development of Warmash, it would still compromise you? The legal issues should certainly be sorted out if you went in that direction, but I would see this as a perspective for a better WC3.
 
I definetly did not plan to hurt you. I'm sorry if I did so!

Being honest here about it, I had a hard time motivating myself to read everything you wrote because I feel guilty about how I communicated with people in this case. For me there were two isolated events, talking to someone nice on Battle.net Launcher who wanted to refund their gift -- having some friendly chat while believing that there was no way that could actually happen. Then there was also the separate isolated event of the time when I was reviewing the transaction history on my Battle.net account to entertain myself and I discovered that someone actually had refunded a gift, which I had not previously thought possible. The transaction history information was not sophisticated enough, or at least if it was I was too lazy to dive in, to the point that I would actually be able to correlate the two as necessarily being the same person. Nor am I able to in any way verify a correlation between a Hive user account and some past memory on Battle.net.

When I review my messaging histories as I often do when trying to remember accurately the chronological order of events and how we truly got where we are, what I find is really interesting. I've been whimsical and I've been inconsistent.

On 2016-02-29, I posted on the Hive:
Then the time to assemble a team to rewrite an open-source version of Warcraft III entirely from the ground up has finally come.

To arms, my brethren! To arms, brave orcs, and humans! Twilight falls, and the enemy awaits.

On 2017-08-15, I said to someone on Discord:
So, what if my part to play in the imaginary remaster of wc3 that I'm hoping for is to release a better model editor around the time the thing drops for sale
So that the custom modeling community can continue to exist with even better technology when all the old 3d fan models are basically invalidated and thousands of hearts are broken
MDXMax
Like 3ds Max only better
It still might be inferior to NeoDex, but it could be fun, and I haven't really used NeoDex

On 2018-12-02, I said to a different person on Discord:
Nah, if I code Warsmash I will have to go all out, since I will end up playing Warmash and not Warcraft 3 afterwards
Wouldn't want to f**k it up

On 2019-07-18, I created the video "Preordering Reforged Every Day Until Beta: Day 1". You can see in the video footage that one of my Chrome tabs is "Guy eats whole onion every day..." that was a video someone else made about eating an onion every day until Reforged released. I thought it was funny and whimsically wanted to one-up him. By this time I was already working on Warsmash.

Really when I review it all, the best description of the outcome of these conversations might be to say that it's all going according to plan. I find it doubtful that you would need to worry that I had been hurt in any way. I've even found and included above that post from myself in 2016 on the Hive calling for somebody to rewrite the game and take it seriously, and that was notably probably before anyone at Blizzard Classic Games even started touching Warcraft 3 again (it was certainly before I started working on the "warsmash" git project or any sourcecode). So, the point I'm trying to make is that I am not some hurt guy rebelling. If there's something to rebel against, it's the Frozen Throne and its shortsighted design and the ridiculous limits of its modding capabilities.

PS: Would you say that if the community financed your development of Warmash, it would still compromise you? The legal issues should certainly be sorted out if you went in that direction, but I would see this as a perspective for a better WC3.

I struggle to visualize how money would make anything better for what I am trying to do perhaps because I am not well-versed in how to use it to make other people do what I want in a situation like this. (Reforged is perhaps an example of how money cannot buy people smart enough to make a modding engine, it is far simpler and cheaper to make a particular set of game characters with a particular set of game rules.) I cannot really imagine it would help at all, unless you have $100 million that I can use to buy the Reign of Chaos source code so that I can get back to focusing on modding that I can take seriously instead of having to wade my way there through an ocean of reinvention.

Edit: Money... money is the problem, not the solution, isn't it?
 
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pyf

pyf

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[...] On 2016-02-29, I posted on the Hive:
On 2017-08-15, I said to someone on Discord:
On 2018-12-02, I said to a different person on Discord:
On 2019-07-18, I created the video "Preordering Reforged Every Day Until Beta: Day 1". You can see in the video footage that one of my Chrome tabs is "Guy eats whole onion every day..." that was a video someone else made about eating an onion every day until Reforged released. I thought it was funny and whimsically wanted to one-up him. By this time I was already working on Warsmash.[...].

Speaking about history, who remembers this thread from 2018?
Joke Video Reponse to Patch 1.29

... So many enthusiastic posts by so many Hivers back then... And look! Three thumbs up and zero comments on YouTube after almost three years! I mean, whoa!
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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I haven't followed Blizzcon, any words for Reforged?
6KMM9p.gif


Yes?
 
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So Line Tower Wars is the only thing they've talked about?
Well, I guess if you want to count Blizzard mods banning the word "Reforged" in chat or J.A. Brack trying hard to avoid saying "Reforged" as news, there's also that :p

Seriously, though - they haven't talked about Reforged at all. Some post-Blizzcon interviews asked about Reforged and all we got was the usual PR talk, i.e. "we didn't screw up with Reforged, just miscomunicated what it was supposed to be, but we're still working on the game and we've learned enough to make Resurrected better".
 
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A few more details about the development of Warcraft III: Reforged in an IGN article covering the current state of Blizzard:

Matters didn’t improve in 2019. Activision Blizzard was roiled by more than 800 layoffs in February, with the explanation that “staffing levels on some teams are out of proportion with our current release slate," according to a leaked memo to staff from Brack. Many of those layoffs came from the esports and community sections of the business. Controversy also erupted when a professional Hearthstone player named Blitzchung was punished for speaking out on behalf of Hong Kong on an official stream, the backlash growing in scope until Brack was eventually forced to apologize on stage. Toward the end of the year, Blizzard realized that Warcraft 3 Reforged — which had been hastily announced the year before to cover the gap in its release schedule — was in deep trouble. Developers across multiple teams were pulled in to try and save it, crunching to try and get the remaster at least into a condition where it could be shipped, multiple sources say. The backlash that followed was severe, and the team responsible for its development was reportedly dismantled later that year.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
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it's hard to even laugh on those who believed this company had any chances to do a single proper thing after all those little hints @ 2019, and now we're here with a finally dead game
It's good that it's hard to laugh, given that these are real people & their livelihood's that are involved. Two of which we as a community actually personally know (William & Kam, natch).
 
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It's good that it's hard to laugh, given that these are real people & their livelihood's that are involved. Two of which we as a community actually personally know (William & Kam, natch).

If something there are several sour lessons that people don't want to assimilate about pre-sales, and other stuff. But sadly people only learn when burned, so there is that.

And Blizzard as a corp o part of a corp is starting to be into the same "corporative innertia" than several studios under EA went before being closed. Old founder talent is gone, the homegrow talent learning from the founders are going out too, and new talent brough on recent times instead of being left free to create is working in more constrained ways than their predecesors, isn't a good picture.
 
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It's good that it's hard to laugh, given that these are real people & their livelihood's that are involved. Two of which we as a community actually personally know (William & Kam, natch).
no personalities, just business decisions. can't blame the shovel for a badly done pit. william could do nothing but follow his manager's orders, no matter how much he would like to do something actually useful.
 
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Was just about to post that :)

The more interesting bit is that Frost Giant is using Unreal Engine 5 to build their RTS game.

I have to admit, seeing Mike Morhaime work with all these post-Blizzard studios gives me hope for the future :)
 
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Kasrkin

Hosted Project: LoA
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WoW will keep going for a while yet, subscriber money doesn't even make enough money to support the game anymore it's the in game store that blizz gets most of its money from these days. Many of the playerbase suffers from extreme sunken cost fallacy as well, in their own words even.
 
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