Blizzard Classic Games division dismantled

Level 3
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
9
According to an article in Bloomberg written by prominent gaming journalist Jason Schreier:

Until last year, the Diablo II remake was set to be developed by Blizzard’s Team 1, part of the company’s Irvine, California, campus that had become known for reworking classic games. Its most recent release, in January 2020, was a remake called Warcraft III: Reforged. The title was poorly received due to glitches and missing features, earning 59 out of 100 points on the review aggregator Metacritic — the lowest score a Blizzard game has ever gotten.

Members of Team 1 met to discuss what had gone wrong. Internal Blizzard documents reviewed by Bloomberg pinpointed the game’s failures on poor planning, miscommunication and a rushed release due to financial pressure from management, among other factors. For example, Blizzard announced the game in November 2018 and began taking pre-orders for 2019 without informing most of the development team beforehand, according to several people who worked on Warcraft III: Reforged.

Team 1 wanted to avoid repeating the mistakes of Warcraft III: Reforged on its next project, the remake of Diablo II. Shortly after the postmortem, however, Blizzard pulled that project from the team and put the division behind Diablo IV in charge. A group at Vicarious Visions is also working on the remake, which was known as Diablo II: Resurrected.

On Oct. 15, 2020, Blizzard informed members of Team 1 that it was reorganizing the entire division, according to the people who worked on Warcraft III: Reforged. In the following weeks, members of the team were given opportunities to interview for jobs elsewhere within Blizzard. Those who did not find positions in the company were gradually cut. Others left for independent studios recently started by high-profile company veterans, such as Frost Giant Inc. and DreamHaven Inc., started by Blizzard co-founder and former Chief Executive Officer Mike Morhaime, whose departure widely signaled the beginning of Activision's takeover.

Team 1 was also responsible for the games Heroes of the Storm and StarCraft II. Blizzard slowed down development support of Heroes of the Storm in 2018. On the same day that Blizzard said it was reorganizing the division, it announced publicly that StarCraft II was ending all ongoing development.

Blizzard has promised to continue fixing and updating Warcraft III: Reforged, although it will likely do it with a different outsourced team. A spokesperson wouldn’t confirm who is handling continued development of Warcraft III: Reforged but said “we are still committed to updates in support of the community.”

Clarification in a tweet from Schreier regarding the term "Team 1" and how it relates to the Classic Games division:

One quick bit of clarification: Team 1 and the Classic Team used to be separate entities, but when the Classic Team took over support of SC2/HOTS (2018 or so) they became known as Team 1. Now gone
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 35
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
8,720
I'm very glad to see this here: *just* saw the article & ran here to post it. Jason Schreier is a pretty reliable source from what I've seen.

Criminidly. Does this mean what I think it means? Does Kam (intentionally not pinging him because I'm sure he gets plenty) still work on Reforged? What about Peter?

It's been relatively easy for me, despite everything, to have faith in Reforged's eventual success due to my faith in the Classic Games Team. I hope I'm reading this wrong.
 
Level 3
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
9
I'm very glad to see this here: *just* saw the article & ran here to post it. Jason Schreier is a pretty reliable source from what I've seen.

Criminidly. Does this mean what I think it means? Does Kam (intentionally not pinging him because I'm sure he gets plenty) still work on Reforged? What about Peter?

It's been relatively easy for me, despite everything, to have faith in Reforged's eventual success due to my faith in the Classic Games Team. I hope I'm reading this wrong.

According to Schreier's reporting, the Classic Games Team/Team 1 no longer exists. The employees belonging to it have either been transferred to other projects or laid off.
 
Level 22
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
2,652
 
Level 4
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
39
So there's no internal team to support WC3 Reforged, SC Remastered and Diablo II Classic.

And no dedicated team for what little support SC2 and HotS still had.

Nobody's going to make new RTS games either.

Splendid.
 
Level 11
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
404
They must have really reorganized the internal teams if Classic got named Team 1. Team 1 used to be their aces back in the day.

Also not surprised they gave Diablo II to the Diablo IV team since those guys are huge Diablo II fans.


ED: article kind of implies that HotS support is dumped, but AFAIK that's not true and the article is worded funny. I think the author really started mucking up his facts between the old Team 1 (which was the one that handled SC2 and HotS) and the 'Classics Team 1'; I never heard of the Classics Team touching either of those until I read this.
 
Last edited:
Level 11
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Messages
745
article kind of implies that HotS support is dumped, but AFAIK that's not true and the article is worded funny. I think the author really started mucking up his facts between the old Team 1 (which was the one that handled SC2 and HotS) and the 'Classics Team 1'; I never heard of the Classics Team touching either of those until I read this.
HotS got a new hero (Hogger) a month ago. And another balance patch a few days ago, and unlike pretty much any hero released up till now, Hogger was actually decently balanced on release. Doesn't seem like a completely dumped support.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
494
Corporate: Let's put unreasonable pressure on the devs, demand unrealistic release dates, and set insane expectations for the public!

Also Corporate: Oh wow the devs didn't have enough time to do a good job??? Let's get rid of them!

The sheer incompetency of it all, it's insane. Why does this story repeat every damn year multiple times? It's almost as if the people running multimillion gamedev companies aren't actually competent at their jobs... Oh wait!

EDIT: I refused to acknowledge that this was going to happen, even though I knew it would. Fucking fuck fuck. What's fucking wrong with people?
 
Level 16
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
1,124
Do we have reason to believe they'd be working on Reforged as well though?
No, we don't - the article states that Reforged will be outsourced and since Vicarious Visions is now a part of Blizzard, it will probably be some other team. The same fate likely befell the rest of the classic games. It's hard to say what this means, we'll have to wait and see.
 
Corporate: Let's put unreasonable pressure on the devs, demand unrealistic release dates, and set insane expectations for the public!

Also Corporate: Oh wow the devs didn't have enough time to do a good job??? Let's get rid of them!

The sheer incompetency of it all, it's insane. Why does this story repeat every damn year multiple times? It's almost as if the people running multimillion gamedev companies aren't actually competent at their jobs... Oh wait!

EDIT: I refused to acknowledge that this was going to happen, even though I knew it would. Fucking fuck fuck. What's fucking wrong with people?

On the contrary these guys aren't incompetent. Look at the profits ActivisionBlizzard are turning despite whatever flops recently have came out from Blizzard. They're making money and that's all they care about, the actual games themselves mean nothing.
 
Last edited:
Level 39
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,047
So there's no internal team to support WC3 Reforged, SC Remastered and Diablo II Classic.

And no dedicated team for what little support SC2 and HotS still had.

Nobody's going to make new RTS games either.

Splendid.

There are two companies founded by leaving Blizzard developers - Frost Giant and Dreamhaven. The former, at the very least, is publicly dedicated to RTS gaming.
 

Kam

Kam

Community Development Manager
Level 33
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
2,686
Interesting times.

Since the leak I've been asked for further details by many people. I left Blizzard in December on good terms. I understand people want closure on the “why” of Reforged. I won't speak on it though because in a professional sense, and personal, trust is paramount. If you share confidential information of this nature that trust is forever broken.

These sorts of information leaks are rarely a productive endeavor. Yes Reforged has many shortcomings, but I do not believe it will simply be abandoned as I have seen many saying these last few days. I was a map maker for ~14 years before I worked at Blizzard, and I'll continue to be for as long as I'm around probably.

I see people decrying the future of Warcraft III, but that future is up to you as a community. Over the last three years I had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of you all over the world, worked with you on features, troubleshooting bugs, organized a tournament, and so much more. I know your talent. Warcraft III can still be the creative outlet you want it to be.

Someone I look to once told me: "It is better to focus through the lens of what can be versus what could have or should have been." As difficult as that is for this community, and for myself, it is the best advice I can offer.
 
I see people decrying the future of Warcraft III, but that future is up to you as a community. Over the last three years I had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of you all over the world, worked with you on features, troubleshooting bugs, organized a tournament, and so much more. I know your talent. Warcraft III can still be the creative outlet you want it to be.

Someone I look to once told me: "It is better to focus through the lens of what can be versus what could have or should have been." As difficult as that is for this community, and for myself, it is the best advice I can offer.

Whilst I understand where you're coming from Kam, I have to respectfully disagree, the community should not be responsible for fixing the problems with Reforged and especially problems that did not exist before Reforged.

"What can be?" What can be is a patch from Blizzard fixing these issues; that's what this community wants not to have blame and responsibility put onto us again like the PR teams have done before. Blaming us for our "High expectations," rather than admitting fault (to be clear I'm not implicating you in that instance Kam).

I get what you're saying Kam that we as a community can do a lot with Reforged and I agree. But we shouldn't have to: we should've had what we were promised by Blizzard and we didn't get that.

That said, I don't believe Blizzard are abandoning Reforged, instead VV will take it over and probably give us a couple more patchs til its in a relatively ok state and then abandon it. Tbh Blizz are just lucky they didn't get reported to the likes of ASA or whatever the US equivalent is.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 51
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,400
I see people decrying the future of Warcraft III, but that future is up to you as a community. Over the last three years I had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of you all over the world, worked with you on features, troubleshooting bugs, organized a tournament, and so much more. I know your talent. Warcraft III can still be the creative outlet you want it to be.
Very nice especially when 1.32+ got us with no more custom campaign features.
It's up to the community you say. Well, the community was doing fine before Reforged came in to be frank.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
494
I see people decrying the future of Warcraft III, but that future is up to you as a community.

You know, no offense to you personally or any of the devs who have actually worked on the game, but the way this whole situation looks like is that Blizzard took a massive shit on WC3, and is now saying "lol clean this up yourself good luck".
 
Level 15
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
689
I'm one of these waiting for the "why" of this shitshow, the last 3 years were a freefall from Blizzard on every sense of the word. Maybe Activision politics are puppeting a death corpse, and we never got the hint of the bad smell.

At best someone with no fear of burning their bridges on the industry will go Deepthroat and give us the picture of what happened, or release a book several years down the line "The self defenestration of Blizzard" Or a more fabulous name.

SC2 is complete, not only on story, but in assets and with a modern engine. They can keep making games for decades with their revamped world editor, until Microsoft decides to make a Windows 12 or 13.

Warcraft got cut in half, 1.26 or 1.27 as the last stable patches, and 1.32 from a bloated mess without all capacities of the original client. And i know people is really combative with the "It's the same client, but different." or "It's a good gamed, just flawed, and bugged, and..."

Our only hope is if WC3 somehow gets released on GOG and they can work the 1.31 client into something definitive, so Blizzard can have their 1.32 influencer version, and the players can just play games.

That or the fact returning to 1.26 a DEREREForge the future ourselves.
 
Last edited:
Level 2
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
16
I dont think a dead community with 95% inactive members can do anything better than the classic games team.

The future of wc3 is grim
 
Level 4
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
39
I dont think a dead community with 95% inactive members can do anything better than the classic games team.
You've got to be kidding. "Dead community":

132 members online at the same time! That's an impressive number for a modding forum.

By the way, most of the forums (dead or not) have lots of incative users who register and never post. It's the active posters who make a community alive.
 
Level 15
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
689
Let's be fair, there was a slowdown on the community during 2019 because everyone was waiting for Reforged. Campaigns were put on hold until the release only to find that 1.32 don't have custom campaigns and during 2020 Blizzard didn't worked on that front. The 2020 was more a mix of shock and the stages of grief.

Apart of the translated campaigns from Chinese and Russian modders, the only Campaign with a significative update in 2020 was Shadows of Hatred that was a complete rework. Malfurion campaign? MIA, Dwarf/Gnoll campaign? MIA too.
 
Last edited:

Shar Dundred

Hosted Project: LoA
Level 43
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
4,696
And also missed releases of demos for the remake of all campaigns into a single one. ;)
You are forgiven.

My point is, not all projects have been affected by Reforged.
Some were already "MIA" before it, others were still working.
And then there is people who, while not necessarily being brought back by Reforged itself, came back for various other reasons.
I have seen some faces I had not seen quite a while, both here and on Hive Discord.

I am not saying this is not bad news, I am not saying that Reforged did not harm the game, because it did. Activision Blizzard screwed up hard, there is no denying that, we all know that.
 
Level 18
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
2,050
officials broke wc3 community at least twice - first with updates as is, with each new patch breaking some new stuff, then with bot kill, reforged release and bnet 2.0 .
there are tons less active modellers than before
there are pretty much less active projects than before
disregard that, corona and overall crysises all around
I said wc3 is dead 5 years ago. When it had like 300? daily online on this forum.
 

Retera

Tool Reviewer
Level 27
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,179
The world is changing. I barely understand how reinforcement learning works but they said it can win at chess using intuitive strategic moves without being given the rules of chess. It is not that anybody knows how to replicate the human brain in a computer. Not at all. It's more that they can make an AI to win at any game, and then now or in the coming days someone is likely to use this technology to play four-dimensional chess against human kind. We will never know when it happens. We will not be told. But if you watch the movie The Social Dilemma, listening to former Facebook, Google, etc employees try to warn everyone about something they cannot describe well... it gives the impression that what I am suggesting might not be as crazy as it sounds.

After I watched that movie I did not use the Warcraft 3 social online systems anymore until posting this message. This includes Discord, here on Hive, Reforged forums, and what have you. I consider Reforged to be an example how well a super computer can play four-dimensional chess against humankind and their social systems.
The goal of the game is for you to go on your Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, whatever it is and talk about Reforged instead of playing it, and ultimately for you to not play it. You are kind of like a pawn in the chess game, but certain pieces have more moves available and are more similar to a Bishop or a Rook. One of the chess pieces in this category of being more important was Kam. That was why it was so important to take that chess piece. We had to make Kam spend all his time chatting on Discord instead of chatting with technically skilled people to get work done. And ultimately, through me and perhaps several others, the play in this game of chess was ultimately to offset the balance of the minds of Kam and others he worked with, so that they would be emotionally compromised and spread that to what the game itself became.

We have all heard a lot of people voice their gripes with Reforged. That's because you are chess pieces that have been taken. You are useful to make others stop playing Warcraft III. And the game is nearly won. You can continue to serve the goal of the social dilemma if you get incensed by this supposed dismantling of the Classic Games "Team 1" and share with your friends how incensed you are and support something like Frost Giant studios instead. Their level of corruption by the supercomputer remains to be seen, but you can rest assured somewhere a reinforcement learning system is studying the people who work at Frost Giant and how to manipulate them.

The goal of the supercomputer is ultimately at odds with my goal of making a Warcraft 3 mod or system of mods. But actually I do not know how to beat Google's AlphaGo at chess. It is easier not to try. So perhaps in a sense I joined with them. I struggle to know what was decided strictly of my own volition, but working on Retera Model Studio's predecessor as it became what it is now for me was coupled with a time of some level of emotional compromise, followed by a radical decision that I should rewrite the game of Warcraft III entirely on my own without the influence of other people so that I can become the sole ruler and sole proprietor of how I entertain myself.

I knew at the time that the computer playing four-dimension chess against the world wanted me to announce to everyone that I was remaking a Warcraft III clone to solve all bugs, patches, API design flaws, etc. It was clear by late 2019 that the machine was guiding me to make sure I went this way. That feeling of hatred leading up to Jan 28th, 2020 that could only be solved by producing a video of a supposed replica game was indescribable. Unimaginable. It's so interesting. I continue to fail to bother to investigate the other people touching what we call Warcraft III. Apparently I am very selfish. As I wrote this project in January of 2020, quickly realizing that it was so tremendously hacked together and made from stolen knowledge from other Warcraft III modding tools that I myself did not even fully understand, I always passively assumed that my actions did not matter because beyond any doubt Reforged would be a success. So my personal sense of rebellion was simply an anecdote and an entertainment.

What I knew then that the computer playing four-dimensional chess against human kind did not was that its valuation of us is based on the notion that we are human. And human is loosely defined. If I get enough brain damage, perhaps I will act in a way that is not in my own best interest and not what the supercomputers expect of me. And I am referring to the future.

The computer played a game with my head to try to get me to replicate the likeness of Warcraft III on my own from sourcecode. It is a probability machine. The probability that I would be the one person who would see this through is indefinitely low. If we want to speak in terms of highest probability outcomes, any attempt to replicate the likeness of Warcraft III ends with making concessions in the interest of time. Maybe you have to make it in Unreal or Unity.

Nobody believes me, anyway. The narrative I am presented with is that I am mentally unfit and that there is not a supercomputer playing four-dimensional chess against humankind. And this narrative claims Reforged is not a checkmate against a certain niche category of creative thinkers. They tell me nobody is manipulated to decrie it on social systems, instead they do so willingly. I am free to play Reforged as much as I want.

Everyone and everything with the power to do so tries to stop you if you try to rewrite the exact likeness of the sourcecode of Warcraft III on your own given only the open source projects of Hive Workshop to copy from. Wise map makers say you would further split the community if you created yet another version of the game. They say you should provide them with better custom models instead. And from their perspective, they are right about it. I guess there was that time the owner of this Hive website told me I would be raped by lawyers for trying to replicate the likeness of the game's sourcecode for my modding purposes.

So I do not have faith in almost anyone on this website except for Ghostwolf, eejin, DrSuperGood, d07RiV, PitzerMike, and a small handful of others who already (mostly unknowingly) did enough for me by providing humankind with the sourcecode of their projects and offering me a sacred look into their knowledge in a way the 2002 developers of the Warcraft III program failed to do and have continued to fail to do.

That sounds really negative but when I say I do not have faith in any of you, what I mean is that I have a strong desire to believe in myself regardless of your actions or opinions. There is a certain confidence that Khyrberos will continue to make trolls and Smegmastico will continue to make Reforged assets while Ujimasa Hojo will continue to make great Classic Assets (And Derivatives).

But few people seemed interested in doing what I am doing partly because I struggle to be interested in teaching them how. I would rather to focus on accomplishing my vision with my own two hands.

Last night I got off of an obligatory call at 4 am, so then I worked for two hours. I was trying to perfect the system of Ramps used in HiveWE that I had copied to create my project. The ramps are named with four letters and a variation numeric value. For example, AAHL0.mdx ramp is a 0 height, 0 height, high ramp, low ramp art asset going in the order bottomLeft, topLeft, topRight, bottomRight.

And it was yesterday when I realized while looking at a pecular cliff on the map (6)Stromguarde.w3m that HiveWE had it wrong. It was oriented off by one. It's not bottomLeft first. Actually, it starts on topLeft first, but the model is oriented by 270 degrees of rotation to face the front as is our custom on Warcraft III.

But after I made this change -- in a lazy way by assigning x to have the value of y and assigning y to have the value of negative x (I was too lazy to add the rotation matrix to the glsl shader code for cliffs in general) -- it made everything look proper. And I am doing HiveWE a disservice by figuring this out without contributing it back to the original source material.
But then the ramps, which occupy two tiles, were absolutely ruined by this change. And so I was trying to learn how the ramps work, and while I was at it I learned all about the X character in the ramp models and how it is not used, but the World Editor let me put it into a map and then the editor just hides it, so I did some guesswork from that 4 am to 6 am time finally and I learned how these ramps were being formed more or less in my replica HiveWE code and I oriented the deleting of the adjacent tile which eejin or whoever titled "romp" and so I romped the proper tiles again.
Even so there were still so many bad corner cases in the ramp texture file choice. A dirt ramp loaded as a grass ramp. So I made a 2d visualizer program and I looked at a printout of the numeric values of the ramp raster since that was pretty easy to do and I wanted to understand better. And sure enough when we romp an adjacent tile and put a ramp there, I was forgetting to keep with this new ramp the source Grass or Dirt cliff tile metadata with the ramp instead of with the offset location. So I did a silly thing.. I just wrote over the romp tile's cliff texture data with the ramp's data. This will probably have some adverse consequences later and break other ramps. Who knows? I did not investigate further. On my tiny test case, doing this fixed it!
So then I still could see that the normal vectors in the ramp models are stupid and incorrect. Even for basic cliffs it looks nothing like the original Warcraft III and it frustrated me greatly. I know how it should be. The cliffs and ramps should mesh together as though in a single giant model and recalculate the normals between then that touch to achieve the proper lighting. I looked in the World Editor and I am not even sure the lighting ever was proper. It is just a heuristic that looks smooth enough not to bother the eye.

So I put a hack in the glsl shader I used to draw the cliffs that uses the deleted terrain cell's normal vector for the cliff mesh anywhere it touches the edge of its cell. It's a gross hack! I am sacrificing runtime checks to pick which normal to use with an if branch in every parallel cpu on the graphics card, when these decisions should be made and cached in advance. I have a certain confidence that the 2002 game was architecturally different, not trying to batch models per kind, and so they could make the normal vector for one AABA0.mdx be different from another AABA0.mdx. There's probably something like that going on.

And I went to sleep and then I woke again and ate something and then I decided if my ramps are smooth now, I should eliminate the lag. So I put the pathfinding system in a giant per-player queue. That's the reason why telling 300 units to move causes some to stand still. When I do that, the lag goes away, finally, this had been a problem for a long time. It's a concession I have to make. They did it, so why can't I?
And the pathfinding cap on the units has to be per-player to avoid misuse in competitive play.

And so this long standing problem where selecting and land unit and then right-clicking an impassable area, causing the pathfinding to search the entire map, suddenly doesn't drop me to 5 fps on a 2018 high-end gaming rig. I want to believe I solved everything, but I do a little combat chase -- an enemy grunt attacks me when I have two grunts and three headhunters -- and I keep kiting the enemy with my guy.
And I find FPS still drops to 35 on this ridiculously high-end rig even after the fix because I have some code to redo the pathfinding search when chasing a unit who moves by more than 10% away from the original path we found to travel to reach him.

It's unbelievable. Reforged is better by a mile. Reforged FPS is fine on this high end gaming rig. The problem is that I was being snarky and wasteful with memory in my first prototype, and I do roughly 1048576 node value resets every time an attempt to pathfind restarts, and I did not put this into the queue to spread the calculations across frames. Or at least, I think that's the problem now that I pondered it for a while. I am away from the computer and was not able to test it.

The truth is that, my dear reader, in my honest attempt to inform you anecdotally of the events of my day, it seems quite likely to me that I may have lost you. We enjoy World Editor because it shelters us. It shelters us from what we would have to do to tell the computer to simulate a game of toy soldiers without it. These details and technicalities, despite being critically important, are something we collectively desire to ignore. Warcraft III World Editor just isn't as powerful as Unreal Engine, because it was not made to be an engine. And in my efforts to separate what was an engine on the Warcraft III system and what was content, I have already struggled and leaned towards committing the same development sins again wherever possible. In the end, my presiding theory is that I just want to mod Warcraft III, not make a new game.

So, I laughed at Draco's comment. "What a surprise!?" Warcraft III was never designed to be modded. It is not a moddable game. And already my attempt to rectify the problem by reinventing everything is a swiss cheese filled with development holes and oversights that leave Blizzard's game as something beautifully superior (for the time being).

But I know that most of you are pirates. Warcraft III community in the last half dozen years to me has been a bunch of people from the poorer half of society and from countries I have never even visited, and they ask me in broken English to help them, providing me no help in return. And I know because years ago I violated Hive Site rules and made a fake account and posted a request in broken English and nobody did it for me, but everyone believed the request was legitimate. (I later reported myself to Ralle.) The point here is that we are a people mostly focused on ourselves and pressed for money. Add in a little bit of mass manipulation and it's scary to me to try to imagine how many people might really have Refunded the Reforged and are not just joking. I prefer to uphold my sacred honor that if I agree virtually to preorder the game, and I pay my money, that is an agreement that I am not going to simply revoke at random. But maybe people will tell me that is just a personal problem. I have a recording on my phone from 2017 where I spoke into a video recording, "If Blizzard makes Warcraft III poop expansion adding nothing but a new poop unit, I will still buy it!" I told the recording. "If they were going to do a remaster, then they have to focus on a different target audience than me!" And that is honestly what I told my bathroom mirror in 2017.

Good thing is, Reforged was for a different target audience than me. And we know because originally Reforged Beta couldn't load non-Reforged custom models, or even the custom heroes on the Warchasers map. So it shows custom maps were not the target of their internal testing, let alone the kind of modding I wanted to do.

So I was really let down by the "community" of people who are not like me that Reforged should be targeting because of their pointless outrage. I thought being annoyed with the game was the uncool mod developer thing to do; that way I felt okay doing it.

But maybe I'm kidding. There never were such a people to be outraged to begin with, that's what I felt like. There are just a bunch of pirates pressed for time and money, and given the choice between a 1 GB free download and a $30, 30 GB DRM version that requires Windows 10, I think the choice for which game for them to install on their pirated, malware-infested Windows 7 computer with that little Activate Windows watermark in the corner is obvious. They cannot financially support the further development of Reforged, which is why despite the promises even in this post I am assuming there is no money in Reforged updates so I would consider it naive to expect something like Custom Campaigns to make a comeback. If they do, it would be because of a humanitarian effort inside of Activision, basically akin to a charity. Legally mandated or otherwise "expected" charity kind of rubs me the wrong way, although it wouldn't hurt if I was a more charitable person.

So the point is, all of you have to feel let down because you cannot financially support the future of Reforged, but I am Reeeeing my own Forge and so I don't care.

I am the son of the wind and rain. Thunder beckons and I heed the call!
If I die upon this day, in battle I will fall; upon the Altar of the Storms I WILL BE REBORN!

Edit: It is highly probable that I will disappear from "the Warcraft III community" entirely henceforce. I am not very interested in pursuing further discussion until a working prototype of my game project is complete. Upon my sacred honor of having claimed to be making it, I must now undergo the long and arduous trial of focusing all of my weekends on this task without distractions like Discord or YouTube or even this forum site. The probability of success, as the elves say, is zero. And so I have no choice but to take joy in romping the ramps instead of talking to you.
 
Last edited:
Level 8
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
252
About art part of the community i can confirm theres nonone serious or enough skilled left to do faitfull remaster of assets . About map makers, coders etc they existed and they will exist, but who knows in which amunt,strenght and passion

About tehnical part where blizzard erased bots and didnt implement some modern features like recconect, theres dark future too...

So, basically at the end, classic has been genetically modified and its nore more classic and reforged is a failure..

What about art tools we were promised by blizzard...

Clans, ladders etc, those are stuff back from days in classic... Should we be happy when they bring back features, like its something new? Should we applause..Common guys...1 year passed since official release..

Huge failure when we sum all things...The end. Community is in the state of coma . Its blizzard fault , and now its up to us. Guess what, you put us in that state

The only way is to make Reforged from scratch, including new art. Seperate classic and reforged once for all, and give us reforged on new engine stolen from sc2, as standalone game , seperate client,totaly new art...New devs. Alot of cash injected for game to live,maintain etc..

And that not gonna happen so...Its over. Bye
 
Level 6
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
71
Warcraft III can still be the creative outlet you want it to be
Nah, it cant be... because there is no support for making custom models... art tools that were promised... and i cant even play and make custom campaigns....
I've been making custom models since god knows when... didnt make a single model since reforged came out.......
 
Level 2
Joined
Aug 20, 2020
Messages
16
Hi. I am sorry if anyone was offended when i said 'dead community'. By 'dead' i meant we are too few and many of us are MIA.

Tomoraider - MIA, Aeroblyctos - MIA, Soul Reaver - MIA

I like THW and there are many talented folks here who work hard but I am sorry this hard work and talent is not enough to make a good wc3 remaster. Remastering a game requires far more work than making good maps, models and icons.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
494
What is even Retera talking about anymore? This is some conspiracy-level rambling. Chess-pieces, supercomputers, pirates... what?

The simple matter here is that a lot of people gave Reforged all the chances it deserved and nonetheless came away disappointed. Underneath all the bad press and hate speak and yadda yadda, Reforged is just... a worse product than what we had before. That's it. There's no need to invent convoluted conspiration speeches to explain that.
 
Level 6
Joined
May 26, 2017
Messages
122
No, no and a thousand times no, you are all wrong, you all are haters, you just want to spread your toxicity and negativity.

Warcraft III (Reforged) is now better than ever!
Tulee enlightened us last week on another topic!

Here you can see:

upload_2021-1-25_17-25-44.png
 

TriggerHappy

Spell Moderator
Level 37
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
4,027
No, no and a thousand times no, you are all wrong, you all are haters, you just want to spread your toxicity and negativity.

Warcraft III (Reforged) is now better than ever!
Tulee enlightened us last week on another topic!

The post you quoted literally says "Reforged is in a less than optimal state". All @tulee was saying is that population has been increasing, which is objectively true.
 

Retera

Tool Reviewer
Level 27
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,179
Sorry for beign third worlder Retera, we don't deserve you uwu

I don't deserve you either, stein.

Mori is right. There is no superior intelligence in this free society. This is a utopia society. There's nothing to be afraid of. You can follow your dreams. Do whatever you want. We don't even agree on what is true and what is not. It is not just Warcraft. It's just that nobody agrees, at all, in any free thinking society lately. We have our own facts.
Kantarion knows we are doomed because we cannot make the HD assets he knows this game needs, and because there is no more classic client. Meanwhile people say model makers cannot make the assets they want to make and know how to make, because Reforged causes them to choose not to, uncertain about what style to create. Or they await the release of Keith Seizemore's Maya plugin, all the while knowing Keith did not care enough to publish it. Still other people ask on this very site how to load Reforged models in the 2005 game version, desperately hoping to use the new assets they love on the pirated game that they love. They are ideologically opposed to the very thing Kantarion wants.
Meanwhile Mori knows that Reforged is simply an inferior product to the original game. Yet he wouldn't play the original game now because after years working on lua modding and messaging William online, he also knows that the supposedly superior original game is an inferior product to the Reforged prepatches that he enjoyed modding in lua, most likely. So he would not play that either since it's an inferior product to what we have now.

Meanwhile Juveqis knows we are all haters and knows Reforged is better than ever. He can cite tulee as proof of the fact that Reforged is so good, it is growing the playerbase. And then at the same time there are people begging Kam to save them from limbo because Reforged took from them their community and their ability to make custom campaigns.

We have dissented into each having our own facts. Is Reforged benefitting this game? Does it matter whether the community makes their own remaster of the art, even though they already did prior to Reforged? Or like me do you believe the old art is from a good point in human history, blending artistic quality with moddability, so you would go to the trouble of rewriting the game in a low performance, slower engine deliberately so it won't be able to support those new models -- to then have a paradise with a singular dedicated art style again?

One hundred and eleven months is hardly enough time to work amongst such excellent and admirable hivers.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
 
Level 6
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
71
Or like me do you believe the old art is from a good point in human history, blending artistic quality with moddability, so you would go to the trouble of rewriting the game in a low performance, slower engine deliberately so it won't be able to support those new models -- to then have a paradise with a singular dedicated art style again?

:O
simply mindblowing!!!


Or they await the release of Keith Seizemore's Maya plugin, all the while knowing Keith did not care enough to publish it.

Personaly i know a handfull of really good modelers that wanted to make custom models for reforged, but they gave up, they are not waiting anymore, and maya plugins are not the only reason....
 
Level 12
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
494
Meanwhile Mori knows that Reforged is simply an inferior product to the original game. Yet he wouldn't play the original game now because after years working on lua modding and messaging William online, he also knows that the supposedly superior original game is an inferior product to the Reforged prepatches that he enjoyed modding in lua, most likely. So he would not play that either since it's an inferior product to what we have now.

I don't want to play the original client because running it is an even bigger hassle than running Reforged. That, on top of the old clients not having a singular community. I always stuck to B.Net because that's what the majority of the people played.

Even if I got it up and running, my friends, who were the only reason I even kept modding WC3, can barely get Reforged running, let alone the old clients. It's just one huge hassle. It's not worth it.

I briefly enjoyed the post-1.31 modding scene assuming it would get patched, the APIs finished, and the overall state of the game improved. That never happened. Then things happened and I didn't have time to work on Ceres anymore, even if I wanted to.

I'd be gladly returning to either the old clients or Reforged if either of them was a lesser hassle to run and play. As it stands, I can barely get most of my friends to install Reforged, and getting the old clients running would be a nightmare for them.

So, yes, WC3 is effectively dead for me now in the current state. I can't play with my friends, the communities I was a part of all fell apart, the promised modding improvements never came, the game became more unstable, etc. There's nothing left for me to enjoy.
 
Level 11
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
404
I'm still waiting for Blizzard to adjust the cost of Reforged to a more appropriate price. Is that really too much to ask?


...

The other thing I want to leave out there is it takes months, if not years, to put out a community project. Sometimes people have better things to do than to work on their hobby. Don't go throwing fits that people aren't putting stuff out on your schedule because you came into the community later in its life when a lot of the growing pains were kinked out-- you're all now in another period where the kinks need to be worked out (for better or for worse, whether it was warranted or not, it happened) and you either accept that or you don't.
 
Last edited:
Level 12
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
891
The narrative I am presented with is that I am mentally unfit and that there is not a supercomputer playing four-dimensional chess against humankind. And this narrative claims Reforged is not a checkmate against a certain niche category of creative thinkers. They tell me nobody is manipulated to decrie it on social systems, instead they do so willingly. I am free to play Reforged as much as I want.
You make it looks like it's black or white when it's just gray.
There's the supercomputer and there's people's agency.
And they're just fighting each other all the time.
The supercomputer wants us to waste time online doing nothing productive.
It's just up to each of us to counter that.
There's no "boundary" which in one side is white and the other is black, there's no "truth" which says "there is the supercomputer" or on the contrary "no there is not". The supercomputer is just a metaphora of the people trying to waste our time using advanced techniques to do so.

What is even Retera talking about anymore? This is some conspiracy-level rambling. Chess-pieces, supercomputers, pirates... what?
To an extent, and in a terribly verbosed, too lenghty way, he's talking about how the current society wants us to waste time online / anywhere where we do not actively think and just "consume" content.
The current most-wanted currency is not money, it's user-time.
It's not a conspiracy or anything, it is just how it is described in most current social network design (red dot notification being the prime example).
Among other things.
But he mixes it up with some random rant about people asking him things, when it's normal that they do so, even in a wrong way. As a tool developer (seller) on Unreal and a game designer, I myself am confronted with these kind of people all the time. But I see no reason to be so salty about them. Of course there are going to be people asking for the quick and easy way when we've taken the hard one.
Also I see no reason to think that they're coming from "third world countries", considering many US and EU people contacted me for the very same reason, except their English was somewhat correct.

When Retera says "they did not want us to play Reforged", he's absolutely correct. They don't care at all if we play the game or not, they only care if we buy it.
They'd take 1000 Facebook sharing over 1000 hours of gameplay, because Facebook sharing creates revenue and hours of gameplay don't.
And they certainly would not want us to spend 1000 hours, or else we'd become "passionate" about something, and might even do great things. No, they want us to share things on Facebook and continue to scroll.

But honestly Retera, you mix it up way too much with your own vision of what you want to do, how "selfish" you seem to think you are, how "people would influence you", how would the peer pressure would apply or anything.

Gosh, we're passionate designer, of course we'll do what we feel like doing right now.
We might start project, abandon them, never talk about them, never share anything about them.
And we wouldn't be selfish. We're just enjoying our life and enjoying what we want to do.
We don't owe anyone anything.
 
Last edited:
Level 12
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
494
To an extent, and in a terribly verbosed, too lenghty way, he's talking about how the current society wants us to waste time online / anywhere where we do not actively think and just "consume" content.

For someone who rambles about wasting people's time online, ironically, he's doing the same by typing up incredibly long-winded and convoluted texts. Though, I guess, that's just how Retera works.

They don't care at all if we play the game or not, they only care if we buy it.

I mean, agree. But throwing a half-assed product that completely pisses off the most dedicated parts of the community and stirs up a huge negative reaction in the wider reaches of the Internet, is hardly a good way to boost your sales. Cash-grabbing is such a short-sighted strategy. Even if we disregard monetization, WC3R could've easily pulled in legions of players year after year if it was actually good. It has such a massive portfolio of user-made content that it's ridiculous.

And if you polished up melee and added in a bunch of hero models for people to buy, or whatever, that'd be another revenue stream.

It just doesn't add up. I mean, from a very cynical viewpoint of quarterly revenues and stock market value, I guess it does? But, fuck, they've spent 3 years updating this game just to pull the plug on it right after, and if I had to guess - that's because this game just isn't pulling in any meaningful revenue. I'd be surprised if they even made any significant profit from the game, compared to the cost of development.
 
Level 12
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
891
For someone who rambles about wasting people's time online, ironically, he's doing the same by typing up incredibly long-winded and convoluted texts. Though, I guess, that's just how Retera works.
His post is like miles ahead of an average post and has the merit to open up the conversation about important things, I think we can give him that.

I mean, agree. But throwing a half-assed product that completely pisses off the most dedicated parts of the community and stirs up a huge negative reaction in the wider reaches of the Internet, is hardly a good way to boost your sales. Cash-grabbing is such a short-sighted strategy. Even if we disregard monetization, WC3R could've easily pulled in legions of players year after year if it was actually good. It has such a massive portfolio of user-made content that it's ridiculous.

And if you polished up melee and added in a bunch of hero models for people to buy, or whatever, that'd be another revenue stream.

It just doesn't add up. I mean, from a very cynical viewpoint of quarterly revenues and stock market value, I guess it does? But, fuck, they've spent 3 years updating this game just to pull the plug on it right after, and if I had to guess - that's because this game just isn't pulling in any meaningful revenue. I'd be surprised if they even made any significant profit from the game, compared to the cost of development.
This would have required a profound rework of most of their tools, and I guess it was in their mind considering they added the "skin" feature.
But somehow, somewhen they realized it would require more work and more money and the money-guys were likely too afraid to take any more risk in something that would be, like you said, an easy-money-grab.
But you are right, adding an extra income on top of the game might have been a "good move" for them.
But on my end, I'd rather purchase a product and be done with it. I might fall for DLC containing stories of new released race (the new race being free and available for everyone on melee games), but I guess they also don't want to take that risk.

There's a saying in Hollywood, you don't do new SF movies / IPs, you only do book adaptation or a sequel to an existing one. That's how audacious money guys are.
 
Last edited:
Top