Blizzard Classic Games division dismantled

[deepstrasz]

 

[StormKnight]

View attachment 372482

Hive people: We're still standing!! yeah yeah yeah, we're still standing, yeah yeah... yeah :/

 

[Barade]

Please fire the person who is in charge for making all these decisions or give me his/her name. If they were already working on a big patch with ranked games and player profiles etc. why the hell would you fire the people NOW?! You can't tell me that this company has not enough money to pay a few developers patching the old games. Outsourcing patches means that new people will have to fix some stuff they don't even know and probably won't touch the ranked matchmaking and player profiles already in development.


Just make the game Open Source and you will get much more done than in the last few months. Right now I am willing to patch the game myself. It's just some C/C++ code and probably one line of code to add the custom campaigns button.

Even improving the performance of the shitty main menu would not take that long.

 

[Bitterman]

look at the brightside, Refunded was a paid fuckfest that went off the radar fast, unlike "MADE BY THE REAL FALLOUT FANS FROM RPG CODEX, OBSIDIAN FORUMS AND NO MUTANTS ALLOWED" that was Fallout New California and now Fallout the Frontier which were shilled for 7 years straight

Please fire the person who is in charge for making all these decisions or give me his/her name. If they were already working on a big patch with ranked games and player profiles etc. why the hell would you fire the people NOW?! You can't tell me that this company has not enough money to pay a few developers patching the old games. Outsourcing patches means that new people will have to fix some stuff they don't even know and probably won't touch the ranked matchmaking and player profiles already in development.


Just make the game Open Source and you will get much more done than in the last few months. Right now I am willing to patch the game myself. It's just some C/C++ code and probably one line of code to add the custom campaigns button.

Even improving the performance of the shitty main menu would not take that long.

Blizzard isn't id software or bethesda to release source codes, or they would let the community make their own Free source port of Warcraft 3 like C&C community did with OpenRA or Daggerfall with DFunity, even Stratagus engine is incomplete for war 1 and 2, or Diablo who has belzebub who is superior than the GoG release, and they had to dump and recompile all of the game and rebuild it from scratch to do it so.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Well, there was an ATVI investor call today. Obviously no mention of Reforged, but apparently "mobile games are the top priority", including a number of Warcraft related titles. Also, World of Warcraft was unsurprisingly listed along Call of Duty and Candy Crush as one of the key titles for the company.

In other news, Overwatch 2 and Diablo 4 won't release this year. While in Diablo's case that's not really a surprise, Overwatch 2 being set for 2022 or later kinda is. Also, there was a linkedin profile of a Blizzard outsourcing manager, who is supposedly taking care of Warcraft 3: Reforged, Starcraft: Remastered and some other games. This pretty much confirms that the Classic Team is gone and the support for other games is being outsourced.

The interesting bit is that she also had one other game under some ambiguous codename listed in her profile, which considering that she appears to be handling remasters, pretty strongly suggests that Diablo 2: Resurrected is indeed a thing.

 

[stein123]

Warcraft for phones, uhmm, wonder if there will be a section on the Hive for that too in the future, in the case that becomes a reality ofc.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Warcraft for phones, uhmm, wonder if there will be a section on the Hive for that too in the future, in the case that becomes a reality ofc.

I wouldn't mind it, given that there is some modding potential - which I doubt there will be.

I know some people are allergic to mobile games, but even though I'm personally not interested in them, I believe they can be fun. For instance, Diablo: Immortal got incredibly positive reviews during the alpha test, so if Blizzard doesn't f...ck it up with cancer monetization (which they probably will) then it could be a good game.

Oh, for those interested - they said Immortal is coming out later this year, so there's that.

 

[Venombite]

Well, there was an ATVI investor call today.

You mean Q4 earning calls?

Obviously no mention of Reforged

No surprise there.

World of Warcraft was unsurprisingly listed along Call of Duty and Candy Crush as one of the key titles for the company.

Again, no surprise there. People keep say that Shadowlands is actually quite a decent expansion. Haven't come back to WoW myself, mostly cause it doesn't feel right after what they've done with Warcraft 3, and cause my Arcane Mage is a total sh**t now, literally the worst DPS spec in game, but people actually say it's quite nice.

Overwatch 2 being set for 2022 or later kinda is.

Again no surprise there, considering Blizzard's been basically pretending that the game doesn't exist.

This pretty much confirms that the Classic Team is gone and the support for other games is being outsourced.

Sadly, after what they've done with Reforged, I can't blame Blizzard for firing them. Sure Reforged is Blizzard management fault, yes I agree, but the devs are also to blame as well, maybe not as much, but definitely are to blame as well.

Diablo 2: Resurrected is indeed a thing.

Surprise! Well, no. Not really.

 

[Footman16]

Sadly, after what they've done with Reforged, I can't blame Blizzard for firing them. Sure Reforged is Blizzard management fault, yes I agree, but the devs are also to blame as well, maybe not as much, but definitely are to blame as well.

What exactly do you believe was the dev's fault?

 

[Venombite]

What exactly do you believe was the dev's fault?

As I've said, everything, in part.

 

[Footman16]

As I've said, everything, in part.

Well I don't really think that's particularly fair tbh, unless you can point to something the dev's did, maybe changes to the campaign, to the client etc that you disagree with then maybe you'd have a point but you also need to bare in mind the fact that the development was rushed and corporate anounced pre-orders for a one year later release without telling the devs.

 

[Lizreu]

Well I don't really think that's particularly fair tbh, unless you can point to something the dev's did, maybe changes to the campaign, to the client etc that you disagree with then maybe you'd have a point but you also need to bare in mind the fact that the development was rushed and corporate anounced pre-orders for a one year later release without telling the devs.

I don't want to discredit anyone, but it seemed like that team lacked a lot of vital experience for the kind of job they were undertaking. Obviously, we don't know what kind of state Warcraft III was in when the team started work on it, but 3 years (counting from 2017, when the patches started rolling in) is a long period of time to get a lot of things done. People made games from scratch in less time than that. Heck, even Warcraft III itself took 4 years to develop, if the 1998 development start date is accurate.

You can have a great team at hand, but at the end of the day, they might not be the best team for the job. Considering how agonizingly slow patches were being made during 2017-2020, I'm tempted to believe that was the case.

Unless they lost the sources for WC3 and had to reconstruct the sources from assembly, or something, in which case, oof.

 

[Death Adder]

apparently "mobile games are the top priority", including a number of Warcraft related titles.

What is this nightmare?...

 

[Rui]

So, to get to the facts, is there even a new patch in the works anymore?

But few people seemed interested in doing what I am doing partly because I struggle to be interested in teaching them how.

Damn, at first glance this phrase made me rejoice, then I reread and understood what you meant.

But he mixes it up with some random rant about people asking him things, when it's normal that they do so, even in a wrong way. As a tool developer (seller) on Unreal and a game designer, I myself am confronted with these kind of people all the time.

Not sure what the "easy way out" is, but personally I appreciate a little push to get started on working stuff out. Then I can work from there autonomously, but after being out of the loop on wc3 related stuff for so long, it is difficult to know where to start if I ever wanted to "mod" wc3 in the deeper meaning/branch of it.

I see people decrying the future of Warcraft III, but that future is up to you as a community. Over the last three years I had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of you all over the world, worked with you on features, troubleshooting bugs, organized a tournament, and so much more. I know your talent. Warcraft III can still be the creative outlet you want it to be.

The morale boost is most welcome . Yet, desyncs, crashes, lack of custom campaigns, these are things that only the persons holding the source code can fix. Wc3 community has gone far, but it took advantage of things like unofuscated code that are not a reality anymore. The thing about wc3 was always that the perfect learning curve it had on any of its subfields. High quality modeling became an obstacle, and ofuscated code is probably gonna be one too. As someone here already said, there's only so much time you can dedicate to your hobbies.

 

[Goffterdom]

Not sure what the "easy way out" is, but personally I appreciate a little push to get started on working stuff out. Then I can work from there autonomously, but after being out of the loop on wc3 related stuff for so long, it is difficult to know where to start if I ever wanted to "mod" wc3 in the deeper meaning/branch of it.

The "easy" way would be to ask me on one of my hundred videos "HOW DO YOU AN HACK AND SLASH". The additional "spice" would be to kinda "blame me" for not answering or asking like if I must answer.
The "better" way would be to create a thread on the Unreal Forums politely asking anyone (and not just me) how to start by creating a "point and click movement system". And then expand from there, posting other specific questions.
I absolutely agree that anyone might need help at some point in his journey, and it's only fair to share experience and knowledge and I really enjoy doing this, when I don't have the feeling to face a knowledge vampire not respecting my time.

 

[MasterBlaster]

So, the Blizzcon schedule is up: Schedule - BlizzCon

Thus it's also time for my list of Blizzcon predictions and a where we stand/rumor/leak summary with a rather jaded commentary, because I'm getting old.
(spoiler: there are no leaks this year oh, well...)

---

Anyway, let's start with Reforged, because there IS SOMETHING. I mean, not for Reforged, but W3 - there is a "Strategy" channel that will contain:
- a Starcraft/Starcraft II mini-tournament/invitational thing for famous pros
- a 20 minute Blizzard anniversary panel focusing on the early games
- a "user-generated" content showcase for SC, SC2, W3
- a community showcase and a live-animation panel

I wonder what W3 custom content they show off at the "user-generated" showcase panel. I doubt they're going to take any custom campaigns, because Reforged doesn't support them , so they'll probably focus on SC/SC2 and mention some popular W3 maps only briefly. But hey, maybe they'll give a shoutout to the Hive

As for the rest... I didn't expect them to talk about Reforged, but not organizing even a single showmatch for a remaster released a year ago is very, very telling. Best case scenario, we'll get an update post before Blizzcon, though WoW and Hearthstone already got theirs, so maybe we're already past that point. My guess is that there won't be any Reforged news for a while. Depressing, but hardly surprising.

STILL TUNE IN TO THE CUSTOM CONTENT PANEL TO SEE IF THEY MENTION US HYYYYYPE!
(day 2, 20th February, here's a schedule that converts to your timezone: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content/9737-BlizzConline-Schedule)

---

On the other hand, Overwatch 2 got only 1 panel... Given how they described the game at last Blizzcon, i.e. as a mix between a new game (lots of new content) and an expansion pack (but tied and still updating the original), I thought that it was coming out relatively soon. Like, even last year or early this year soon. That obviously didn't happen and now it looks like it might not come out this year. Yikes.

But then, the original game is "dead", the Overwatch league is a fail and Overwatch 2 got a very "meh" reception when it was revealed, so I guess that nobody cares anymore. At least I don't see any hype for Overwatch 2. Heck, I see more people interested in Diablo Immortal (of all things) or meme-ing Reforged than talking about OW2 And to think that this was one of their big announcements last Blizzcon. Yikes again.

---

WoW just got a patch 9.0.5 PTR with some system changes and the patch is supposed to arrive in March, so their Blizzcon panels will probably be about 9.1 and 9.1.5. Maybe also a little tease of 9.2, but nothing special. Plus there are rumors that Classic: Burning Crusade is coming, so there's that. Oh, and they're going to show that Ancient mount that players voted for, which I'm actually excited about, because the prospect of riding on a big tree when I resubscribe to WoW for a bit sounds fun

---

Hearthstone I literally couldn't care less about - obviously they will reveal the next expansion. And I heard they're rotating out the old basic set of cards and the new one is free. I'm guessing that it's meant to incentivize people to try Hearthstone, since they'll be able to get a decent amount of cards to build decks with for free. Get them hooked, throw in some free packs, foster that lootbo... I mean, card pack addiction and watch them spend, right? Yeah, I'm out.

---

Finally, Diablo. Immortal is likely getting an alpha/beta/release date announcement. It definetely comes out this year as per their earnings report. As I've said before, it's supposedly really good, so if you have a phone (hehe) then I guess that's interesting. Anyway, it would be hilarious if they released it on an April's Fools day I know it won't happen, but damn - the memes would be glorious

On to some more serious matters. Diablo 4 is showing a new class. At last Blizzcon people spotted a piece of concept art for a Hunter-style class, so it might be it. Here's the art if you haven't seen it yet - https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/e43fow/diablo_iv_hunter_class_concept_art/. Other than that, they have 3 panels, so... Lots of time to talk about updates and show new stuff - I'm guessing one will be about the class and one for a general D4 dev update.

Here's where the plot thickens, because I doubt D4 will have enough content for more than 2 panels and I don't think Immortal can carry a whole panel, so I'm going to guess that the "developer roundtable thing" is going to be a shared D2 Resurrected/Diablo Immortal panel.

---

Other than that - no room for new IPs, a lot of community/fluff stuff and some Q&As. Pretty standard stuff minus e-sports.

 

[stein123]

But hey, maybe they'll give a shoutout to the Hive

XD probably, but there's a huge asian niche of custom content that i'm sure will be the spotlight

 

[Kam]

I wouldn't exactly call the Asian community a niche.

 

[Venombite]

So, the Blizzcon schedule is up: Schedule - BlizzCon

Thus it's also time for my list of Blizzcon predictions and a where we stand/rumor/leak summary with a rather jaded commentary, because I'm getting old.
(spoiler: there are no leaks this year oh, well...)

---

Anyway, let's start with Reforged, because there IS SOMETHING. I mean, not for Reforged, but W3 - there is a "Strategy" channel that will contain:
- a Starcraft/Starcraft II mini-tournament/invitational thing for famous pros
- a 20 minute Blizzard anniversary panel focusing on the early games
- a "user-generated" content showcase for SC, SC2, W3
- a community showcase and a live-animation panel

I wonder what W3 custom content they show off at the "user-generated" showcase panel. I doubt they're going to take any custom campaigns, because Reforged doesn't support them , so they'll probably focus on SC/SC2 and mention some popular W3 maps only briefly. But hey, maybe they'll give a shoutout to the Hive

As for the rest... I didn't expect them to talk about Reforged, but not organizing even a single showmatch for a remaster released a year ago is very, very telling. Best case scenario, we'll get an update post before Blizzcon, though WoW and Hearthstone already got theirs, so maybe we're already past that point. My guess is that there won't be any Reforged news for a while. Depressing, but hardly surprising.

STILL TUNE IN TO THE CUSTOM CONTENT PANEL TO SEE IF THEY MENTION US HYYYYYPE!
(day 2, 20th February, here's a schedule that converts to your timezone: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content/9737-BlizzConline-Schedule)

---

On the other hand, Overwatch 2 got only 1 panel... Given how they described the game at last Blizzcon, i.e. as a mix between a new game (lots of new content) and an expansion pack (but tied and still updating the original), I thought that it was coming out relatively soon. Like, even last year or early this year soon. That obviously didn't happen and now it looks like it might not come out this year. Yikes.

But then, the original game is "dead", the Overwatch league is a fail and Overwatch 2 got a very "meh" reception when it was revealed, so I guess that nobody cares anymore. At least I don't see any hype for Overwatch 2. Heck, I see more people interested in Diablo Immortal (of all things) or meme-ing Reforged than talking about OW2 And to think that this was one of their big announcements last Blizzcon. Yikes again.

---

WoW just got a patch 9.0.5 PTR with some system changes and the patch is supposed to arrive in March, so their Blizzcon panels will probably be about 9.1 and 9.1.5. Maybe also a little tease of 9.2, but nothing special. Plus there are rumors that Classic: Burning Crusade is coming, so there's that. Oh, and they're going to show that Ancient mount that players voted for, which I'm actually excited about, because the prospect of riding on a big tree when I resubscribe to WoW for a bit sounds fun

---

Hearthstone I literally couldn't care less about - obviously they will reveal the next expansion. And I heard they're rotating out the old basic set of cards and the new one is free. I'm guessing that it's meant to incentivize people to try Hearthstone, since they'll be able to get a decent amount of cards to build decks with for free. Get them hooked, throw in some free packs, foster that lootbo... I mean, card pack addiction and watch them spend, right? Yeah, I'm out.

---

Finally, Diablo. Immortal is likely getting an alpha/beta/release date announcement. It definetely comes out this year as per their earnings report. As I've said before, it's supposedly really good, so if you have a phone (hehe) then I guess that's interesting. Anyway, it would be hilarious if they released it on an April's Fools day I know it won't happen, but damn - the memes would be glorious

On to some more serious matters. Diablo 4 is showing a new class. At last Blizzcon people spotted a piece of concept art for a Hunter-style class, so it might be it. Here's the art if you haven't seen it yet - https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/e43fow/diablo_iv_hunter_class_concept_art/. Other than that, they have 3 panels, so... Lots of time to talk about updates and show new stuff - I'm guessing one will be about the class and one for a general D4 dev update.

Here's where the plot thickens, because I doubt D4 will have enough content for more than 2 panels and I don't think Immortal can carry a whole panel, so I'm going to guess that the "developer roundtable thing" is going to be a shared D2 Resurrected/Diablo Immortal panel.

---

Other than that - no room for new IPs, a lot of community/fluff stuff and some Q&As. Pretty standard stuff minus e-sports.

Don't expect "too much" Reforged mentioning. Especially since it's only presented together with SC and SC2. You forgot to say that this is the first Blizzcon after 5 years without Heroes of the Storm even getting mentioned (despite being on the poster) meaning that game is now officially dead.

Another fun fact is that Overwatch, a MOBA, didn't get a single hero in more than a year, while HotS, their other now officially dead MOBA got 2, last one this December. No wonder no one cares about OW or OW2 anymore. Heck OW2 wasn't even mentioned after Blizzcon 2019, Blizzard's basically pretending like the game doesn't exist.

 

[MasterBlaster]

You forgot to say that this is the first Blizzcon after 5 years without Heroes of the Storm even getting mentioned (despite being on the poster) meaning that game is now officially dead.

I didn't forget - I just decided to pay my respects to HotS with a curtain of silence

As for Overwatch... I'm not a fan. The franchise never resonated with me, that's all. But you're right, Overwatch was mostly abandoned after Overwatch 2 got announced. I think the only way to salvage this now is to make OW2 a standalone game, separate from OW1, because I feel like the franchise really needs a fresh start. Who knows, maybe that's what they're doing and that's why we haven't heard much about OW2 and why it has such a light presence at Blizzconline this year?

Still, I'm excited for WoW and Diablo 4 updates this year. Shadowlands is pretty decent, Diablo 4 has potential, so there might be some interesting stuff. Also the custom content showcase panel sounds intruiging, so I'm definetely going to tune it for that. And if Diablo 2: Resurrected is a thing and looks decent, I'm in too.

Heck, my old phone might be holding up great, but it's like 5 years old already, so... Perhaps I'll need to buy a new one this year and when I do, I might even consider trying out Diablo: Immortal. I know it's blasphemy, but it legit looks good, so if it's F2P and I'll get a phone that can run it, why not?

 

[Footman16]

How did Overwatch die off so quickly?

I never kept up with it but I thought it was a massive success and hit? What happened?

 

[Venombite]

Heck, my old phone might be holding up great, but it's like 5 years old already, so... Perhaps I'll need to buy a new one this year and when I do, I might even consider trying out Diablo: Immortal. I know it's blasphemy, but it legit looks good, so if it's F2P and I'll get a phone that can run it, why not?

How did you manage? I mean seriously. Mine was a newest model from December 2018, and now, two years later, it's falling apart, literally. Your phone is a technological miracle. The thing I'm mostly interested in is TBC, late TBC was the first time I ever got to play WoW, so who knows, I might come back to WoW after all. I also don't play Overwatch, FPSs just aren't my thing. And I too will try out Immortal, once or if I get a new phone.

How did Overwatch die off so quickly?

Quite simply. It's a MOBA. Sure it's FPS, full 3D, has no minions, but it's a MOBA in pretty much every other way. And MOBAs require content to be added constantly. Few months of content drought is already critical for a MOBA. And a full year of content drought, as it is now for OW... well that's the result.

 

[Goffterdom]

Overwatch is far from dead lol. They have a solid playerbase and while the content got pretty quiet these past months I'm sure they're hard focusing on getting OW2 more hyping than it was before.

As to what they'll showcase about Wc3R, I'm betting on Wc2:Tides of Darkness.

EDIT: But no, I think they'll just /ignore Reforged entirely.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Overwatch is far from dead lol. They have a solid playerbase

Every game has some playerbase, even "hits" like Reforged, Anthem or Fallout 76 The thing is - Overwatch was supposed to be the next big thing - a huge game, with a thriving e-sport scene and constant updates. And it definetely started this way, but declined tremendously over the years and now it's just a niche title. And for a game that had huge plans like Overwatch... that's pretty much "dead".

It's a MOBA. Sure it's FPS, full 3D, has no minions, but it's a MOBA in pretty much every other way. And MOBAs require content to be added constantly.

Aye, pretty much this. Overwatch had issues with content updates from day one and modern multiplayer-focused games rely heavily on constant additions and changes. This and e-sport/streaming, which Blizzard hurt by pushing Overwatch League so hard.

How did you manage? I mean seriously. Mine was a newest model from December 2018, and now, two years later, it's falling apart, literally.

Well, I got myself a classic phone for work (I said I was getting old! on the other hand: I don't need it for anything else than calls and it has a good battery, which is super nice because I don't have to remember to charge it regularly ), so outside of checking something online, I don't use my smartphone (the 5 year old one) too much That's probably it. And that I'm usually pretty lucky with choosing devices

The thing I'm mostly interested in is TBC, late TBC was the first time I ever got to play WoW, so who knows, I might come back to WoW after all.

We're completely different Taking it then that you didn't try Shadowlands?

 

[Goffterdom]

Every game has some playerbase, even "hits" like Reforged, Anthem or Fallout 76 The thing is - Overwatch was supposed to be the next big thing - a huge game, with a thriving e-sport scene and constant updates. And it definetely started this way, but declined tremendously over the years and now it's just a niche title. And for a game that had huge plans like Overwatch... that's pretty much "dead".

While I agree on the fact that they haven't peaked like they wanted, it remains a game with numerous game modes all finding games pretty fast (except DPS Ranked).
It means there are still many players on the game.
Pretty much unlike HOTS which is a dead game.
OW is a game that didn't reach what it wanted to achieve, but it's not dead. HOTS did not reach what it wanted and in addition is dead.
Also you seem to think that because you or the Western people don't speak about it / watch it, it means it's dead but it had / still has relatively large number of viewers in Asia.
Also if you look at the number of tweets / retweets you can clearly see that the game still has traction (once more, unlike HOTS, and even though most of these tweets ask "OW2 WHEN???" or "give us more than random skins").
And don't get me wrong, I'm not defending OW and I myself left the game for various reasons a while ago, and I also had the pretension to think it was dead. But after some research and trying yourself in game you can clearly see it's not dead. It's far from "niche" yet.

 

[Footman16]

Overwatch is far from dead lol. They have a solid playerbase and while the content got pretty quiet these past months I'm sure they're hard focusing on getting OW2 more hyping than it was before.

That's why I was confused I remembered Overwatch being a massive success and hit from the limited amount of stuff I'd seen.

Tbf I didn't keep up with it at all, as it's not my kind of thing.

 

[Venombite]

We're completely different Taking it then that you didn't try Shadowlands?

No, I haven't. Heard people say it's quite nice, not Legion nice, but nice. But for some reason I simply didn't care. Maybe it's just me, maybe it's Blizzard, maybe it's my lack of (enough) free time, maybe it's a fact SL is the first expansion with 100% new lore, maybe it's everything combined. I might come back to TBC for nostalgia sake, heck even today TBC probably has the best dungeons and raids of any expansion (rivaled only by WotLK), but it's a big might.

 

[MasterBlaster]

While I agree on the fact that they haven't peaked like they wanted, it remains a game with numerous game modes all finding games pretty fast (except DPS Ranked). It means there are still many players on the game.

You made some good arguments, so I'll concede that calling it "dead" was too harsh.

Still, Overwatch is a game that is way past its prime and has started on the same radio-silence/minimum-updates path Starcraft II, Diablo III or HotS treaded before going onto life support (i.e. little active development, relatively small playerbase) and thus I feel that it might share the same fate soon.

It's far from "niche" yet.

I might concede that it's not "dead", but we'll have to agree to disagree about the "niche" part.

 

[Deolrin]

I don't think HotS is "dead" either. Dead games, in my opinion, are ones that don't receive any new content patches and also their playerbase is too small to consistently find players. You can hop into matches in HotS whether ranked, quick or ARAM very easily and the general chat is bustling and busy (although it is an absolute shitshow - really worth experiencing it for yourselves - it's basically /pol/ mixed with just really weird stuff, for some reason). Overwatch is also not quite dead yet, I think we just get that vibe because Blizzard slowed down development for it, or maybe subjectively many of us played it in the past / our friends did and we quit (I know that's true for me, at least). The player numbers are still very high and so are the Twitch stream numbers and as someone mentioned, Twitter posts.
A dead game would be something like Sacred, Lineage II, Age of Mythology or Heroes of Newerth. For online games, true death comes when the servers are shut down.

And by the way, MasterBlaster, HotS was in full throttle and even received massive patches, updates and a gameplay overhaul before it was (very suddenly) had the plug pulled on it. The reason being simple, it was not competing favorably with League of Legends and DOTA 2. So the ActiBlizz overlords did not want to spend another penny on it if they didn't have to, but as an active player I have to say that HotS is extremely enjoyable and that is probably why the community is still relatively big and not jumping ship. Plus, luckily the game is not completely abandoned - there are constant patches with new skins, heroes and balance changes incoming. It's just unfortunate that we're unlikely to see any new unique game modes, maps or massive overhauls anymore.

 

[Goffterdom]

The real question now is... is Reforged considered dead

 

[MasterBlaster]

MasterBlaster, HotS was in full throttle and even received massive patches, updates and a gameplay overhaul before it was (very suddenly) had the plug pulled on it.

Oh, I know, but after that HotS has also been getting some patches, didn't it? However, as time went on, I think it started slowing down. I'd assume it was because the full team likely left some unfinished stuff that the smaller team was able to finish fairly easily, but once that well went dry and they had to do things from scratch, it look more time. And finally, now that the Classic Games Team is gone, one could only wonder what it means for HotS updates. I think there will be some, though not very often.

The reason being simple, it was not competing favorably with League of Legends and DOTA 2.

Which is sad, really. This modern trend of "we have to be the biggest and make ALL THE MONEY" is so annoying. I'm confident that HotS was popular enough to pay for its development and make a bit of profit, but the company simply figured out that they'll make more money if they move the devs to something else. On one had, can't blame Activision on making that step, on the other - as I've said above - it's really sad.

A dead game would be something like Sacred, Lineage II, Age of Mythology or Heroes of Newerth. For online games, true death comes when the servers are shut down.

If you're going define a dead game as a game that is no longer playable then sure, you're right. But then, there's not a lot of dead games out there as even some very old titles still have an okay-ish population.

To me, however, a dead game is a game that is limited to its (not necessarily insignificant) core playerbase, but is mostly irrelevant to the general gaming audience and as such, is very unlikely receive significant updates and grow, so it will likely struggle to maintain its population in the long term. I guess you could say it's more "dying" than "dead", but with how many games are pumped out these days and how easy it is to find something else to play, I don't think there's really that much of a difference.

P.S. And yes, I'd say Reforged is in this group.

 

[Kyrbi0]

To me, however, a dead game is a game that is limited to it's (not necessarily insignificant) core playerbase, but is mostly irrelevant to the general gaming audience and as such, is very unlikely receive significant updates and grow, so it will likely struggle to maintain its population in the long term. I guess you could say it's more "dying" than "dead", but with how many games are pumped out these days and how easy it is to find something else to play, I don't think there's really that much of a difference.

P.S. And yes, I'd say Reforged is in this group.

Then I would submit you have a very different understanding of the term "dead" as it applies to games.

 

[Uncle]

I just want to stop seeing this shit:

• Set VariableSet why = "is this still a thing"

Come on, one last patch before the end.

 

[Retera]

I've been following this thread even tho I said I would disappear. It's just like, I want some kind of social escape, and to think about Warcraft 3. But the social systems are all poison and they aren't Warcraft 3 and so they never give me what I truly seek.

Nor can they, I suppose.

But who needs classic games team when you can hold 30 minute séances like this one:

Edit: Our ally's brain is under siege.

Why are we here? Why can't we all just get along and decide on the contents of the next patch, then implement it? Nothing makes sense!

Today I decided to have 3x5 command card and 9 unit train queue. So... that took about 5 minutes to change some constants. Took a lot longer in Paint changing the UI art files to show the nice 3x5 boxes.

How is this so hard for you all to figure out?

 

[Goffterdom]

How is this so hard for you all to figure out?

I'm sorry but, how is this so hard for you to figure out it's not what I want?

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed and all. I'd even be rejoyed if you could manage to make it through with Warmash.

But even without talking about Reforged and new graphics, I want to play on a unified version with all players at once. Not a side-mod.

 

[Venombite]

The real question now is... is Reforged considered dead

P.S. And yes, I'd say Reforged is in this group.

You know what could easily save Reforged?
Adding the Vulpera! They're actually the 5th most popular race in WoW now! I don't know what is it with those guys.

 

[deepstrasz]

I'm sorry but, how is this so hard for you to figure out it's not what I want?

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed and all. I'd even be rejoyed if you could manage to make it through with Warmash.

But even without talking about Reforged and new graphics, I want to play on a unified version with all players at once. Not a side-mod.

The actual reality matters, not wants. If official Warcraft III dies, then Warsmash could be exactly what we need to continue the game's advancement.

 

[Barade]

I think it will be pretty hard to recode the whole Warcraft III game. Displaying the graphics might be a start but the pathfinding, AI, spells, etc. etc. You will probably never get the exact same behavior of the original game except you simply use its code as reference. We can only hope that the outsourced team might at least add some features like custom campaigns. I don't think there is much chance for really big patches anymore.

They should just give the classic games to another company to be maintained but it seems that if they cannot make any money from the game anymore, they won't do anything except fixing some bugs.

 

[deepstrasz]

They should just give the classic games to another company to be maintained but it seems that if they cannot make any money from the game anymore, they won't do anything except fixing some bugs.

Or people like Retera could make use of the source code and stuff.

 

[Goffterdom]

The actual reality matters, not wants.

Yes it does, and Warmash is likely not the reality I will ever go into
I'd rather stick to current Reforged.

Even though I think Warmash is great.

 

[Retera]

I think it will be pretty hard to recode the whole Warcraft III game. Displaying the graphics might be a start but the pathfinding, AI, spells, etc. etc. You will probably never get the exact same behavior of the original game except you simply use its code as reference.

Coming from a person who said something I resonated with on a previous page about you wished you could volunteer to support the Warcraft 3 game, these are some interesting sentiments. For me, it's not like you're wrong here, exactly, it's just that I don't care. I believe it's worth trying.

I published a video of Warsmash and some guy commented on it saying that he wanted to work with me to make maps and that he was good at triggers. So I told him it was not a video of Warcraft 3. He said he did not believe my trolling and asked why I wanted to hurt him. Obviously YouTube comments are crazy, but we live in interesting times.

I'll link the video below for anyone interested.

Spoiler: Some interesting youtube comments here

 

[Goffterdom]

I published a video of Warsmash and some guy commented on it saying that he wanted to work with me to make maps and that he was good at triggers. So I told him it was not a video of Warcraft 3. He said he did not believe my trolling and asked why I wanted to hurt him. Obviously YouTube comments are crazy, but we live in interesting times.

It's obvious to why he would think it's Warcraft 3, it's not weird and understandable why he would think you're trolling him.
But it's kinda rewarding for Warmash to think that it can already be considered as Warcraft 3.

 

[Barade]

I am just saying you probably won't get the exact same behavior from the original game but it's not necessarily required to have the exact same behavior as long as you can play the game. I also think it is really much work to do especially for one person or a small team of volunteers. It wasn't meant as discouragement. An Open Source version would bring many benefits for the possibilities of modding etc.

I just think it will be hard to recode stuff like:

• Multiplayer synchronization of games
  
• The AI (you have to interpret AI JASS scripts and support the whole computer AI of building a base etc.)
• Support of all JASS natives. You need to recreate the exact same behavior.
• Support of all of Warcraft's abilities.

The main problem is IF they patch the game or change things, you will have to maintain your code all the time or your version will have disadvantages but I think after Reforged you might be sure that there won't be really big updates. Maybe I would concentrate on single player maps with creeps only (no melee AI). Then you could add some features which the regular Reforged doesn't bring with it. For example better debugging of maps/JASS codes with break points etc. So people would have a reason to use YOUR version instead of Reforged.

If you really can recreate multiplayer games better with resyncs/joining the game while it's already running then you would certainly get LOTS OF players because you could start some RPG server.
There were projects like that in the past but used code injection etc. at the original game which was a waste of time since they changed much with Reforged, so your approach is definitely better but probably more work.

Btw. is your project Open Source? Any link to a repository?

 

[Retera]

. is your project Open Source? Any link to a repository?

I took down the github repo roughly a year ago until I can figure out what to do about lawyers, but in my mind it is open source. I was just reading US patent 7585224 hoping to decrypt what it was talking about and whether my project is affected, but there's a lot to go through.

A first aspect of the present invention is directed to a storage medium having a game program stored therein to be executed by a computer (CPU 31) of a game apparatus (3) for causing a display apparatus (TV 2) to display an image of a three-dimensional game space, in which a plurality of characters (player-side characters 71 through 75) each of which can be an operation target of a player appear, as seen from a virtual camera. The game program causes the computer to execute a selection step (S2); a motion control step (S5, S8); a first display control step (S10); a designation target change step (S22); a first change step (S33), and a second display control step (S34). In the selection step, the game apparatus selects one of the plurality of characters as a selected character (71). In the motion control step, the game apparatus causes the selected character to perform a motion in accordance with an operation by the player, and causes non-selected characters, which are the plurality of characters other than the selected character, to perform a motion based on a predetermined motion rule. In the first display control step, the game apparatus sets a position of the virtual camera in accordance with a position of the selected character and thus causes the display apparatus to display an image of a partial area of the three-dimensional game space taken by the virtual camera, and causes the display apparatus to display a cursor (aiming cursor 76 or ground cursor 77).

I think that they indicate one of the plurality of characters has display apparatus virtual camera move to accordance of position of selected character in display step, but I don't have their same steps and I don't move camera to unit on every frame, rather I am using arrow key and map controlled camera. So maybe it is OK

Edit: I don't have any real knowledge of lawyer patent information in regards to Warcraft 3 and this was the first link I found when searching "reign of chaos" or something in US govt database. Obviously the important thing to look for is MDX/BLP/MPQ. In all three cases I am basically using an open source library or a derivative work from other Hive projects, so if I ever had any legal trouble I would hope I could just direct the lawyers to that other project from which mine was derived, which would be the one who actually initially published something in violation. To that end I always tell people my work is copied from Ghostwolf.

I included that copy of info from the US database mostly because I find its use of language to be almost comical.

 

[Barade]

Hmm that sucks. I don't know much about software patents etc. It would really suck if the project would get taken down and if it's not open source somewhere nobody can contribute. What about Stratagus - Wikipedia wasn't there some similar case?

Maybe you can apply for Blizzard and patch the original game Just show them what you already did to fix Warcraft.

 

[Retera]

I really was almost going to DM you earlier, Barade, and clicked on create conversation and give it the title "A Man of Sound Principle" or something like that based on your earlier post that you wished you could contribute C++ code to WC3 itself. That thought really resonated with me.

Maybe you can apply for Blizzard and patch the original game Just show them what you already did to fix Warcraft.

But this... Why would you troll me like this? Do you want to hurt me?

I do not know how to make Warcraft III profitable or to make a salary from modding Warcraft III. I would not go to a respectable company like Blizzard and propose that I had experience nor knew how, because I do not have experience making a game profitable. Nor would I probably enjoy learning how to make a game become profitable. Because the means to make games become profitable is already evident. You have to use social manipulation to make people play them, then use the social manipulation to make those people pay you.

Anyone who applies to Blizzard is making a public statement that every purchase of Reforged, or every purchase of the future "Reforged Expansion" idea that supposedly would be the point of working there starting now, should partly go to this new applicant because of how good their ideas are. Imagine if I asked everyone who purchased Reforged to send me $0.60 right now because of how great I am and how I could make an expansion. That is hysterical. None of you would do it. So, what right have I to convince them to let me don the Blizzard moniker to make that same claim?

Or, if you're telling me to go work for my former WoW dealership, I am just not interested. WoW already exists so I would not get to have the fun of making it. The area for improvement now is in manipulation, and I don't feel like I would particularly enjoy using video games to manipulate people any better than any other job -- but there is a risk I might hate using video games in that way.

There is just no reason for Blizzard to hire me. If I had wanted to be that kind of person, I could have been trying to greenlight my own game IP on Steam and get "into the industry". But I did not do that and I am not doing that. The MDX/BLP/MPQ technology entertains me. So I created Retera Model Studio and now I am making a toy game engine to let me mod Warcraft III with no rules (i.e. I can do 3x5 command card, 3x3 item inventory, etc with incredibly minimal effort). What I am doing is the opposite of what their company will do. The Warcraft brand's value is now in manipulation. If I was a good employee, surely they would pressure me to switch over and make a Clash of Clans replica called Clash of Durotar Guilds or something. The fact that they would pressure for that is not the problem. The problem is that they would be measurably right to do so (financially).

There aren't people that want to buy Warcraft III. I preordered Reforged 50+ times, but when people saw I was doing that and just buying it on smurf accounts they got me to gift it to others instead. Then, at least one of the people I gifted to refunded. I wasn't buying it for them, I was buying it for the game. To me that's disgusting to see my effort to support the game be thwarted. But I was nice to them and didn't really say it that way to the guy at the time. But that's how it is. People really hate Warcraft III that much. I can't fix that. Family who played Warcraft 3 with me in my childhood called me on Discord and when I told them I was playing Reforged custom games they commanded me to stop playing and I gave in to the pressure and quit out of my game where I was a healer in an RPG and left the group to die. People really hate Warcraft III that much.

I am making the ability for me to keep modding Warcraft III because I am alone in what I want, and quirky, and just having fun. I will probably add a Lightning Editor to the Object Editor. I will probably add Weather Effect Editor tab, too. I will probably add a native to detect right clicks on "framehandle" instances in map scripts. I will probably add "Stats - Gold Cost" and "Stats - Lumber Cost" to every ability in the ability editor, and make "Order String Use/Turn On" in the ability editor (or some similar new flag if necessary) actually change the OrderID used for each ability so that two abilities that are both copied from the same in-game ability do not stack and bug in-game (maybe we would have to add a column in AbilityData.slk that finally exposes to the user what the default value is... some item abilities do not currently have a string mapped to their ID... so this one might take a while, maybe it's idealistic, etc). For now, on Warsmash, ability commands send both OrderID and HandleID and so there is no ambiguity and you just have perfect alignment between what the user wanted to command the unit to use, and what it uses. But supporting Issue*Order natives will require me to implement the "best guess" at HandleID and re-introduce the problematic conflicts we experience on Blizzard's engine.

There is not a Blizzard or a thing to apply to in order to do improvements to Warcraft III. That ship already sailed. Kam told me to apply in 2017 over and over, but I did not. The careers page never had a job description open for "guy who wants to hack away at making Warcraft III more moddable as a hobby with no motivation to make any profits from it for the next ten years." There was never a position open like that. When I asked about it, Kam said some of his friends had to apply 50 times to get jobs at Blizzard. So then I got slightly "offended" privately in a certain kind of way. I was nice about it, but in my head I was thinking that I didn't want to work at Blizzard, I wanted to mod Warcraft 3. So, I said to Kam, maybe I can be the guy who gives you suggestions from the outside, and that can be how I contribute.

I said to him at this time, and this is a direct quote from the chat log in 2017:

So, what if my part to play in the imaginary remaster of wc3 that I'm hoping for is to release a better model editor around the time the thing drops for sale
[12:04 PM]
So that the custom modeling community can continue to exist with even better technology when all the old 3d fan models are basically invalidated and thousands of hearts are broken

But what I really meant at the time is that obviously it was super predictable that since they had 15 years of radio silence on War3 -- not really silence, since there was nobody to do any talking -- it was pretty evident that people working at Blizzard do not work without purpose. So, if I was supposed to be a War3 related worker, then that would mean there was decided to be a financial opportunity on War3. Once that opportunity was met, predictably, there would be "the end", the point in time when I would have to decide whether to work somewhere else at Blizzard. In short, I foresaw where we are now.

I'm not interested in a "the end" to modding War3. I do not want to be the guy who does the server support for the Call of Duty ads on Blizzard Launcher. Why end up moving to work somewhere else in their company and climb their corporate ladder of nonsense only to ultimately be laid off or forced to work on mobile games or rapacious WoW in-game purchase systems if I could instead go and code Warsmash as a hobby while sustaining myself with some other job and some other means of contributing to society? And if Blizzard does a C&D on Warsmash then I could go back to modding Patch 1.26, I guess, and just make a conscious decision to accept the government enforced suffering.

I only suggest that Blizzard gives me the source code to War3 sometimes as a form of internet trolling in the hopes of maybe some day achieving social change towards a world where something like that could happen. They are not going to actually do it. Have any of you guys played WoW?

 

[Kam]

So, I said to Kam, maybe I can be the guy who gives you suggestions from the outside, and that can be how I contribute.

Most people don't realize just how critical Retera was to the project. Without him, and a number of other power users, the game would have been in far worse shape.

 

[Retera]

Most people don't realize just how critical Retera was to the project.

Yeah, I actually have a 1.5 hours long video where I recorded myself ranting late at night, titled "How I Sabotaged Reforged" where I go through suggestions I gave and interactions with Kam and other people and why a lot of my ideas are misguided and dangerous and stupid and terrible and helped get us where we are now. It's great. When I tried to rewatch it, it basically makes me want to throw up.

The good thing is that a lot of the bad suggestions got skipped over. So I guess my best contributions were just little technical fix suggestions -- some test maps for certain MDX corner cases, etc. In that way, I objectively contributed.

But I mean early on in 2017 I was telling Kam things like how they should add back the Warlock soundset for Archimonde that I remembered my map using in RoC that quit working on my custom map in 2003 in TFT. And so, I mean, eventually there I was talking about it, and I finally said, look, us talking about this is a waste of time, if we're going to be talking or you're going to care what I say, could you focus on desyncs instead? So, I think then they set the Archimonde soundset to Tichondrius and moved on.

User feedback is always this kind of double-edged sword that benefits from vetting. I do not envy Kam that part of his job.

 

[Med. MapGuy]

Modding in a Lightning Editor to the Object Editor sounds pretty awesome, tbh.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Most people don't realize just how critical Retera was to the project. Without him, and a number of other power users, the game would have been in far worse shape.

By "the project", do you mean the model-editing stuff specifically, or Reforged generally?