Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

[Anachron]

If you want we can test it on northrend.

 

[Kam]

Sure, I will have time later tonight. I am in central US, what timezone be you?

 

[Anachron]

Sure, I will have time later tonight. I am in central US, what timezone be you?

german.. +8 hours

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Ok here is my review Kam as promised;

- Heroes need to be changed more. They have no custom abilities.
- Towers are way to weak, I suggest you make them stronger.
- Change the Death-Knight sound.
+ My AI .
+ Many custom models fit into the warcraft theme, good job on that.
+ I like the Runes spell from the Ogre.
+ Good filesize for such a map.
x You should give the grunt a custom skin, they're plenty nice grunt skins on this website. Also the footman could be given a custom skin
x I think it would also be more fun if you make battles more fast paced (that they don't take ages like normal WCR3) and make heroes deal more damage but also lower they're hit points.
Conclusion;
The map looks good and is fun to play. This map could use some minor changes and tweaks (see above). I find the map idea good and I hope you make the map a bit more WCR2ish.

The AI does not work properly, it only makes Footmen and Archers, or Grunts and Troll Axethrowers and comes to attack you in huge clumps without their hero... 10 mins into the game and you can swamp 'em with Paladins or Ogres etc....

 

[Kam]

At 15:33 -

 

[VeljkoM]

The AI does not work properly, it only makes Footmen and Archers, or Grunts and Troll Axethrowers and comes to attack you in huge clumps without their hero... 10 mins into the game and you can swamp 'em with Paladins or Ogres etc....

I have that problem to.

 

[Kam]

Are you putting it on insane?

 

[Anachron]

Maybe they did an public round and didn't notice they played vs noobs

 

[VeljkoM]

Maybe they did an public round and didn't notice they played vs noobs

How.I don't have Battle net.
I probably didn't put it on Insane.

 

[Kam]

So, I thought of a new ability to stem from the Alchemist and Inventor.

Rig:
Allows you to rig key buildings with explosives which will detonate upon the building being destroyed. The idea is that as the human masses kill your most valuable structures some of them will be taken with.

Recycle:
Basically just a human version of the undead unsummon ability, get a % of the cost back.

I also decided to remove the upper naval units.


And why don't you have bnet?

 

[VeljkoM]

Nice Alliance massacre.I can't wait to see that.
To bad for naval but AI is Stupid AI.
Will you maybe add new air week unit.Like baby dragon or dragon hawk.

 

[Kam]

I used to have several air units, but I really try to discourage people from focusing on air. I think there was far to much emphasis placed on them in WC III; for example the frost wyrms and chimeras you always see ladder players hoarding.

 

[VeljkoM]

OK new range unit.You have two melee, two spellcasters, two siege, one range and one suicide unit.Or maybe some special unit with one unique ability to steal gold or something.

 

[Anachron]

Okay sorry that I wasn't online that time but I became ill and ye..

 

[Kam]

Here's a replay, it's just some basics. The guys I was playing weren't really experienced, but it's still fun. Pay attention to how I micro with spells.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Ideas Kam!

After playing many version of your map, I would like to add my input:

1.) Change the Troll Destroyer BLP to the one I recoloured, it now looks more like the old ones.
2.) Make the orcs less beasty, they are overpowered despite what you say. The reason why they weren't in the last game was because they had EQUAL stats... So change something!
3.) As someone said, Turalyon was Paladin, Alleria was the Archer.
4.) Please make blue be the humans, humans always were blue, and it annoys me that I have to be green or orange... (If you can be bothered make the other orcs black using triggers... As red and black were the two orc colours)

• Black Orcs
  • Events
    • Map initialization
  • Conditions
  • Actions
    • Player - Change color of Player 3 (Teal) to Black, Changing color of existing units

5.) Change the dragons to red.
6.) Please change Rejuvenation to Holy Light, as the healing is really quite slow and stupid, and Holy Light by default cannot be cast on yourself which is right.
7.) Change the ships voices to plain "creaky" noises. They sound ALOT better...
8.) Change the Projectiles for the Battleships and Juggernauts to the demolisher projectile and increase their projectile speed to look more like the last game! =)

There I have expressed above, what I feel is right for you to change in this map so far... There might be more later but thats a lot to change for now. =)

Elven Spellmaker

 

[Anachron]

I have just watched the replay, its a melee map with custom units, I would like to see more balance on ships (they are pretty imba) also the walls should get more intension of the gameplay. Other then that it seems to be pretty fine.

 

[Kam]

Skin looks great. =)

I'll switch the color around, it will involve some heavy trigger modification though.
I will change dragons back.
I have already nerfed ship health again, so they should be more balanced in the next version.
I fixed the names, sorry about that.

Now I've had many people say that Orcs are overpowered, but I have never had any trouble as human. Paladins, when making proper use of heal, are very difficult to kill. They end up with more health than magis if you research animal war training. Mages and apprentices are also extremely powerful: cloud can disable the tougher orc towers and slow can counter bloodlust.
What I have come to understand is that humans aren't underpowered, they are harder to use. They have more microing involved, which I think most people struggle with. In addition orcs only have one healing spell: land consumption. Humans have the paladins heal, and the apprentices auto-cast heal.

I may be wrong, but I think it's just a case of skill.

What secondary color would you pick for humans?

And spellmaker, how did you get the skin?

 

[VeljkoM]

You are not wrong.Orcs have more destructive spells , wile humans are more defending nature.It is just mater of playing style.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

You are not wrong.Orcs have more destructive spells , wile humans are more defending nature.It is just mater of playing style.

Yet they have less in every stat...

Please change to Holy Light, so much better... That would be more balanced then...

 

[VeljkoM]

No I mean Kam is right.Humans have lesser damage but they have greater armor.
The melee humans also have lesser damage then orcs but you still can win.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Another one

Again Kam I have re-done another skin, this time it being the Gnomish Inventor. The roof was quite poor, and so I replaced it with the Human Farm's Roof texture.

You will need to compress it though as its gone rather huge!

What do you think, its definately better, but can it be compressed?

Edit: I compressed it to 50% quality and its now 77.8kb instead of 274.4Kb, the quality is heavily slashed, but I'm sure you won't see it inside the game...

There are two ways round this, if you feel the quality is bad:
1.) If you have the original not squished skin, I could add the roof and squish
2.) You might have a better squisher that can squish the larger one I have attached.

I HATE the roof, and I might do something about that later... It will take longer though, as its to do with Alpha and I hate dealing with Alpha.

If I see anymore that I think should be changed I'll post again.

Edit 2: And again I'll cry, Holy Light...

Elven Spellmaker (Illidan Mage)

 

[Mechanical Man]

I'm sure you could make that model without custom textures, which occupy a lot of space.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

I'm sure you could make that model without custom textures, which occupy a lot of space.

Probably but I'm not a modeller or a skinner, I suck at both lol...
I didn't make the model in the first place. But yeah, there is a possibility it could be made without textures, but I wouldn't be able to do it.

 

[Kam]

Thanks again elven, I'll send you the original skin.

As per the human heal. I originally considered holy light, but Paladins are an extremely powerful unit. I chose healing because it takes time, where as holy light heals X xp instantly. Humans are a difficult race to play, they always have been in WC3. I know the only difference in the races in WC II was Mage and DK spells, but I like the variability present in WC3.

I can set healing so you can't target yourself?

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Check the private message I just sent Kam, it might help with healing.

Also I think that something else should be changed:

The little ships, "Elven Destroyer" and "Troll Destroyer" no longer can kill the Battleships, but they nearly do, the damage of the battleships needs to be vastly increased.

 

[Kam]

Hm I'll look at that, I have already done some hp adjustment on the naval units for the next version so I may have already fixed it.

The healing spell is just one of many examples. Blizzard made Humans a micro intensive race. This is not to say that orcs don't need micro, but they do require less. It is simply a trade off, humans are more defensive spell based. Polymorph, slow, Healings spells, vision are all defensive spells that require the player to use heavy microing. Unholy Armor, haste, bloodlust, raise dead are all offensive spells. Now any of those can be used for offense or defense, but they were geared towards one or the other. Now it may be because I am he creator, but I can win every time with either race.

Something I am looking at right now is that most of the time when two AI's fight each other humans will win. I have yet to discover exactly why, but this tells me there is more balancing to be done.

 

[Anachron]

Great, you never replied my comments. See you only read his replies. Gl hf.. whatever..

 

[Kam]

Great, you never replied my comments. See you only read his replies. Gl hf.. whatever..

Whoa I read all your comments. I sent you a pm yesterday asking if you wanted to play today. I apologize if it seemed like I ignored you.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

I still don't think that if I was humans I'd stand a chance against the orcs.

What is Microing btw, do you mean spellcasting?

I still cannot see how the humans can actually win, they have weaker units and their spells are not good/useless in Warcraft III.

The eye of Killrog needs to be faster (if possible) and a LOT weaker in defence, a human army of about 20 archers took well over half a minute to kill it! The eye was quite weak in the last game, to compensate for its speed. The eye also features in WoW and has this description "Summons an Eye of Kilrogg and binds your vision to it. The eye moves quickly but is very fragile."

Again another example of unfair advantage to the orcs, Human subs are not by default hidden, only if they submerge, which cannot be done on shallow water... The turtles (at least look) are always hidden unless they attack...

 

[Kam]

-Blizzard is exactly the same as Death and Decay.
-Slow reduces movement and attack speed by 60% and 25%.
-Polymorph renders it's target unusable for 6 seconds.
-Invisibility can conceal an army, and lasts 2 minutes.
-Fireball is your standard damage/2 second stun spell.
-Revenge of Quel'tallas does massive damage to melee attackers. For best use, surround the Mage with your own melee units, and the attackers will take damage without hurting your units.

-Shackles binds any ground unit for 8 seconds, perfect hero nuke spell.
-Replenish is your autocast heal spell, keeps your army alive.
-Cloud disables enemy towers for 10 seconds, use in conjunction with steam tanks.

These are all extremely useful spells. And lets not forget Exorcism, which is a one hit kill on a Death Knight if your paladin has 200/400 mana to spare.

Microing is the fluid use of all unit abilities and strategies. This is often measured in mouse clicks per minute, the pro Korean ladder players run about 200.

For instance: You are a human with 4 paladins and 2 mages facing an orc force of 5 magis and 2 death knights. If no spells are used, orcs will win simply out of numbers. Magis cast bloodlust on themselves and are hasted by the death knights. Mages cast slow on the ogres and the paladins move around the ogres to cast exorcism on the death knights. As the ogres attack the Mages, they cast polymorph and retreat behind the paladins. Paladins continually heal while mages cast fireball. Human victory.

Humans in Wc3 require you to think more because their spells are more defense based. The trade off is that the Paladin and other human units often have more armor or more HP once upgraded. It's just the way it is. There is a reason Orc is the most frequently chosen race on ladder, yet do not hold the most victories.

 

[VeljkoM]

In other words Elven Spellmake:
YOU don't know how to play with them so stop saying that they are week.

Kam you forgot to tell him that human units are less expensive
so you can have more units than orc and thus having number advantage over orcs attack.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

In other words Elven Spellmake:
YOU don't know how to play with them so stop saying that they are week.

Kam you forgot to tell him that human units are less expensive
so you can have more units than orc and thus having number advantage over orcs attack.

Veljko, they ARE weaker, its a matter of whether they are balanced or not, and I can see your point Kam, I would still like to see it in action though, if you can get another replay, but this time you be the humans, then I could compare.

Also an example of a spell thats pretty much useless in this map is Polymorph. In the old game it changed you into a sheep/ram/seal, forever. In Warcraft III its only 60 seconds, which is still better than 6. However if it is changed so that the duration is 0, hero duration is 6, uncheck the non-hero and neutral option, and put in this code polymorph would work similar to the last game.

• Polymorph
  • Events
    • Unit - A unit Starts the effect of an ability
  • Conditions
    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Polymorph
    • ((Target unit of ability being cast) is A Hero) Equal to False
  • Actions
    • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
      • If - Conditions
        • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
          • Conditions
            • (Unit-type of (Target unit of ability being cast)) Equal to Gryphon Rider
            • (Unit-type of (Target unit of ability being cast)) Equal to Dragon
      • Then - Actions
        • Unit - Replace (Target unit of ability being cast) with a Flying Sheep using The new unit's max life and mana
      • Else - Actions
        • Unit - Replace (Target unit of ability being cast) with a Sheep using The new unit's max life and mana
    • Unit - Change ownership of (Target unit of ability being cast) to Neutral Passive and Change color

At least just consider it, even if the cost has to be bumped up a bit...
When is the next version being released btw?

 

[VeljkoM]

Humans are not week.You just want damage but I was shown that damage is not everything.I was playing against my friend (melee),I was orc and he was human.He killed all my army with just spellcasters.Point is you don't win with just strong army and destuctive spells.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Thats just a logical fallacy...
The point is that the spells the humans were good in WarII because the stats were the same, change the stats and the balance is tilted away from them, plus the spells themselves have been nerfed (e.g. Polymorh) and so a more defensive style cannot work.

Aggresive spells + stronger = Win
Defensive nerfed spells + weaker = Lose

 

[VeljkoM]

You don't know how to play this map then.You should just stop playing this map.

 

[Kam]

Ok guys, calm down. I'll ask a mod to clean this out if you continue.

Probably in 2-3 weeks, I have exams coming up.

 

[VeljkoM]

Already forgoten.So will you make more maps or will be this only one.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Probably but I'm not a modeller or a skinner, I suck at both lol...
I didn't make the model in the first place. But yeah, there is a possibility it could be made without textures, but I wouldn't be able to do it.

Oh, I thought that you create those models and skins.

 

[Anachron]

Oh, I thought that you create those models and skins.

QFT, btw, whats up with the radar station? IMHO it looks not good. (terrible if I am really imho).

 

[Elven Spellmake]

QFT, btw, whats up with the radar station? IMHO it looks not good. (terrible if I am really imho).

It looks pretty much how it did in Warcraft II, I changed the roof to a Human Farm's roof, to get rid of the awful yellow one. As I said, I would change the roof T/C to how it looks in the picture, but it requires Alpha faff, and I'm no good at modelling or skinning.

I didn't make this model or the skin just edited it.

Grr it wont let me resize the image... -.-

 

[VeljkoM]

It is just like in Warcraft 2.

 

[Anachron]

Well I think you can't put wc2 things into wc3, it doesn't look good.

 

[VeljkoM]

Well everybody has different taste.I like the idea of warcraft 2 in warcraft 3.
It would be even better if there was campaign like warcraft 2.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Well everybody has different taste.I like the idea of warcraft 2 in warcraft 3.
It would be even better if there was campaign like warcraft 2.

Thats what I'm planning on making... At some point...

 

[VeljkoM]

Can't wait.
So it looks like this map is complete.What more is there to do?

 

[Kam]

Well I am studying for exams right now, so nothing for the time being.

There are some balance changes though, and I'm making the AI harder.

Some new icons, and various techtree changes.

 

[VeljkoM]

The perfection can never be achieved can it.Will you make map with more land one day and less water.
I know you said you wont but it is pointless because of the AI(not all people can play War3 on Battle net).
In warcraft 2 not all maps had water and it is boring to always go around the map.

 

[Avex]

Do the Death Knights have their sounds? If so can you PM me them?


Its still a kickass map =P

 

[Kam]

No it uses the HeroDeathKnight sound set because it has the horse breathing.