Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

[VeljkoM]

Humans and Orcs

This is great mix of Warcraft II and III.Units are well balanced but ability Revenge of Quel'Thlas is to strong,you can winn with couple of mages.
I was wondering why there is not berserker upgrade for troll like in Warcraft II.
And AI problem...You could try to cheat real AI by replacing original units until you find AI.But everything else is great like units,Heroes,Buildings(beside Wall you don't really need it) creeps.I just like your ideas.Maybe we could help each other.

 

[DemonKnight199]

Tides of Darkness

Just about to check this out and i'll let you know how I like it.After a little bit of playing i do indeed enjoy,though i suppose i'll have to play it on bnet with friends to enjoy the full experience.4/5 Definetly for now.

 

[punwisp]

So far I've made a smaller 2v2 map and removed the Gazlowe and Kronous. I've made several other balance changes and found a suitable model for the orc forge.

As per the Death Knight, I have still yet to find a suitable model. I have standards as to the size of models I will import, as I must keep download times in mind on bnet. I have seen every model on this site, unless someone made a new one in the past week that I missed. They are all too large, and I can't compress models that have separate portraits. Until I find one that isn't over 100 kb after compression the current model will have to do.

Get a Optimizer.Plus just use this one, unless you get a bunch it really won't make a huge difference, How big is your map?

 

[Kam]

I use Vexorians optimizer, it also protects your map. Currently they are at 1834 (2v2) and 1931 (3v3). I like these sizes because they are about 30 seconds for someone to download on bnet.
Which model did you have in mind?

VeljkoM - What did you have in mind?


I have made numerous minute balance changes and a few bug fixes. You won't notice most of them really, but notible ones are:
-removal of "super" tanks
-decrease in damage dealt in "Revenge of Quel'Thlas" by 20%
-new model for orc forge
-tweaked heroes a bit

 

[punwisp]

I use Vexorians optimizer, it also protects your map. Currently they are at 1834 (2v2) and 1931 (3v3). I like these sizes because they are about 30 seconds for someone to download on bnet.
Which model did you have in mind?

VeljkoM - What did you have in mind?


I have made numerous minute balance changes and a few bug fixes. You won't notice most of them really, but notible ones are:
-removal of "super" tanks
-decrease in damage dealt in "Revenge of Quel'Thlas" by 20%
-new model for orc forge
-tweaked heroes a bit

Can you put cursor over the file and see how many KB/MB it is? Also if you have optimizer then it will add very little.

Death Knight Old order - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site

Until I find a better one =), trust me, just adding this will barely increase loading time, with optimizer. With Optimizer it will cut the filesize of this by 3/4, least it should

 

[Kam]

I've used that model before, and I removed it because:
-I can't compress it, compressing a model with a separate portrait breaks the link
-has hero glow.

 

[VeljkoM]

Orcs and Humans

VeljkoM - What did you have in mind?

Maybe I was wrong about RoS spell.
If you are wondering about AI well my idea is bad for you.My way must be used i by changing existing race ,so AI wouldn't use ships and you would have to bring back altar and Heroes because AI can't play without Hero.Look at my map Warcraft 4 Dark Age or forum The clan Wars for more information.
About Death Knight model.How about Nazgul rider model by olofmoleman.
And can you give me advise about The Clan Wars map.I have no ideas what to do.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

I've used that model before, and I removed it because:
-I can't compress it, compressing a model with a separate portrait breaks the link
-has hero glow.

Use Magos and remove the hero glow then, its quite simple.
I undertsnad your filesize issue... BUT its a MUST... Remove something like the shipyard or other imported models that arn't brilliant...

And why have you re-imported the Orc Lumbermill into the game? Surely that would take extra space??? To be precise a waste of 69.9 KB (71,592 bytes) [Although Warcraft III compresses all imported files automatically, as map files are just MPQs]

 

[AIagremm]

I like your turtle ship thingy.
Always wanted something like taht for goblins(they actually do have those things, if i remember right)

Good work! Always wanted to play WC2 on WC3.

 

[Kam]

I use mdx squisher on all imported models, and the orc lumbermill only takes 68 kb.

That death knight model is almost 400 kb including all textures and portrait, and that's after I compress everything. The two "super" tank models I had barely totaled 200 after compression, and that was for two complex models. I will think of something, but if you want to help, you can re-texture the model to use ingame textures only and merge the portrait.

Scratch one, I have a another version with a merged portrait and only one texture file required. I'll work on the hero glow problem.

 

[punwisp]

One of the main reasons that made me somewhat dislike it when I played it was the Deathknight, please just use the deathknight soundset =P I know he says for the lich king but its better then a deathknight in a orcish voice saying "FOR THE HORDE!" The Deathknight is going to get you as close to the kind that will fit it. Unless you use the alcoyte soundset, that might fit.

The model is one of the other main reasons, it really doesn't suit it lol.

Also here are other things that will greatly improve things, if you haven't already.

Long descriptions.... Just create info tabs in the quest log, I can tell you how you do that if you like. Just use short descriptions, like what there purpose is, as like there role, and the spells they have and can learn, this will make it a lot better rather then having a whole paragraph for each unit lol, its really not needed, and doesn't make it look any better, new unit or not.

Also, as long as you have at least 1MB people will load pretty fast, at most 1.5 MB, 2MB is when things start to slow down.

Btw, since your going to use heroes, do it the old fasion way in like in wc2 only a bit different. Example

If you were to use grom hellscream, create a grunt unit, increase its scaling, increase its attack, maybe make it chaos damage type, change name and take off the upgrades, and give it spells. Also have it be sold, Not trained, this way you can put a limit on the hero, and have it so you can only have one at a time, so the focus doesn't turn to heroes, and are just buffer units with more spells, like in warcraft 2.

 

[Kam]

Well I managed to work that model down from 400 to 135.5 kb. =p

I'll look at the long paragraphs, my intent was just to provide some lore for the player to enjoy.

The hero system I'm using is very similar to WC2. You will start with a random hero, just like how you started with a hero in the WC2 campaigns. Each has two spells, and the generic stat bonus ability for a total of 10 levels. They are essentially stronger versions of the basic combat units.

 

[punwisp]

Don't use long descriptions, put them into the quest log under "Information"

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Use Magos and remove the hero glow then, its quite simple.
I undertsnad your filesize issue... BUT its a MUST... Remove something like the shipyard or other imported models that arn't brilliant...

And why have you re-imported the Orc Lumbermill into the game? Surely that would take extra space??? To be precise a waste of 69.9 KB (71,592 bytes) [Although Warcraft III compresses all imported files automatically, as map files are just MPQs]

I use mdx squisher on all imported models, and the orc lumbermill only takes 68 kb.

That death knight model is almost 400 kb including all textures and portrait, and that's after I compress everything. The two "super" tank models I had barely totaled 200 after compression, and that was for two complex models. I will think of something, but if you want to help, you can re-texture the model to use ingame textures only and merge the portrait.

Scratch one, I have a another version with a merged portrait and only one texture file required. I'll work on the hero glow problem.

What I meant was, whats the point of importing the Orc Lumbermill if its already in the game? I'm not talking about the Beta one, just the regular Orc Warmill..?

 

[Kam]

Ah no you are confused. I had been using the beta version as well. The icons for the two are the same, but instead of a sawmill on the side the beta version has a door with a step and a fireplace.

EDIT:

So I have a few choices here. I have, thanks to another member, a partial AI for the map. It can't use naval. I am afraid that the AI will never be able to use naval in any meaningful way, due to the limitations that Blizzard included.

So, would you rather have no AI or the land/air only AI?

 

[VeljkoM]

AI

Better land/air AI then no AI.
But in your map Orcs and Humans: Tides of Darkness AI was using naval units.
I was playing to check out units when AI attacked me and my ally.
Can you make bombardment ships less strong they have hit points 4000 more then castle.I could not sink one of them without losing whole armada of ships.
My point is AI had ships in this map.

 

[Kam]

Yes, it did. However that isn't the same AI that is currently in use.

The problem is simple. The AI can't use both land and naval units proficiently at the same time. It can only set one waypoint, and so it sends all units to this one waypoint. If there are land and naval you either get a bunch of land units clumping on the shore or a bunch of naval units clumping on the shore. It also confuses the AI then and it retreats many times before attacking. I've had a lot of AI people try and solve this, but not even the WC II conversion mod was able to do it. AI is also incapable of using the sea load/unload ability, as there is no distinction for shallow water in the engine.

 

[VeljkoM]

In warcraft 2 there were 3 AI.One specific for land,one for see and one for air.So even in warcraft 2 AI didn't use all units.I remember it from warcraft 2 maping days.But I still think that ships have to much health.First ships have 2000 hp ,bombardment ships have 4000 and special have around 3000 plus armor
.It is taking to long to destroy fleet of ships.Buildings don't have that much health .And kaboom ability doesn't do right amount of damage damage.Explosion for Troll ship says 1100 but does less.

 

[Kam]

No it does that much, but armor deflects some of the damage. I'll look at the ship hp though.

 

[VeljkoM]

I was right now playing your map and i noticed that only enemy AI was doing something.My ally were only gathering gold and lumber and had some buildings.And they had lots of gold and lumber so they could to something.Sorry for another AI stupid reply.But can you help me with my map.It is in my signature and i need help.You have such a good ideas.

 

[Kam]

Just a little preview of the new map. It's smaller (four people) and I spent a lot more time on terrain.

 

[punwisp]

you used cliff tiles... Try not too.. A good terrainer either doesn't use them or uses them in a very good way =), CLiff tiles makes terrain look bad, use the hill tool, and use another tileset to make it look mounty

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Kam, thats a million times better than the other one, the other one is too huge...=/

(And I opened up the model from your map and compared, they are different! =) Didn't know there was a beta version of that at all lol.)

 

[Kam]

you used cliff tiles... Try not too.. A good terrainer either doesn't use them or uses them in a very good way =), CLiff tiles makes terrain look bad, use the hill tool, and use another tileset to make it look mounty

I use cliffs to restrict movement. I hate maps that you can reach the black edge on, I like to make natural restrictions. I though about using hills, but then units could just walk to the edge. I also have to use cliffs in the shallow water to allow construction, as buildings can't be placed on uneven surfaces when they require water.

I'll work on the terrain a little more. I do however have a dilemma: where would a balanced place be to place the marketplace?

 

[punwisp]

Change the pathability on some tiles.

 

[Kam]

Never mind, fixed it.


On a side note, what would you guys think of removing the Ravager, Purifier, Adamant and Barge?

 

[Anachron]

I think about doing a map with Mr_Bobs new models because they pwn .
Haha ok o(n)t(opic):
Well I would rebalance everything instead of removing them.
Removing is a bad aspect. You will later know why.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Perhaps you should remove them....
I personally feel that the extra units you have added make it less War II, even if it boosts the War III feeling. The tanks are the most annoying...

 

[Kam]

Well I got rid of the uber tanks. I do like the Barge a lot, and now that I've lowered the overall HP of ships it's much more effective. I've just putting some final things together.

 

[Ghost765]

about the compression thing with portraits, heres your solution.
Lets compress the deathknight, so it becomes deathknight_squished_squished_squished (i usually compress 3-5 times). Now just either delete all the squished so its deathknight.mdx again, or change the portrait to deathknight_squished_squished_squished_portrait.mdx.

 

[Kam]

I had the portrait combined with the model.

Surely there is some quality loss with multiple compressions?

 

[VeljkoM]

Well uber tanks were to much and I am glad about ships.When will you upload new 4 player map.I can't wait.

 

[Kam]

How about right now?

=p

Edit: Sorry fixed the version number.

 

[VeljkoM]

Great work and nice model for Death Knight.
But why do orcs have bronze dragon instead of red dragon.
And doesn't unholy armor need to increase armor and not like haste to speed up units.You already have haste.You miss spelled Altar of Teron.
And air units are overpriced.They aren't that strong.
But it is still greatest altered melee map

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Great work and nice model for Death Knight.
But why do orcs have bronze dragon instead of red dragon.
And doesn't unholy armor need to increase armor and not like haste to speed up units.You already have haste.You miss spelled Altar of Teron.
And air units are overpriced.They aren't that strong.
But it is still greatest altered melee map

Kam the orcs do need the Red Version of the dragon...


@Veljko: Kam deliberately overpriced them, he says so earlier on.

 

[Kam]

Yes they are supposed to be hard to get, I got really tired of people turtling and massing air.

I chose the Bronze Dragon because of the map colors. I figured that since orcs catch a wild female from wherever they are it would make more sense. Animals usually blend with their environment.

Haste increases movement speed by 30%.
Unholy Armor increases attack speed by 100%, but causes 3 hp damage per second for 45 seconds. So it does 135 damage to whatever unit you cast it on.

Hope that helps.

And I'll keep that typo in mind for when I update. I can also make it a Red Dragon if it is too distracting.


And thank you, it makes me happy that you hold my map in that high of regard.

 

[VeljkoM]

You are right for the dragons and air unit massing.
But unholy armor in Warcraft 2 was invincible.You could at least make it like inner fire but without damage increase.

 

[Ghost765]

i never really understood why people meant by quality loss. if there is, i doubt it would be noticeable ingame where everythings 10x smaller.

 

[Kam]

Well sometimes when you compress textures the image gets blurry. I was pointing out that there may be a similar affect with models - although I have no idea.

 

[VeljkoM]

How do you do that.

 

[Kam]

I use Warcraft 3 Viewer to compress. You load the texture, save it as a .bmp and then convert it back. It will prompt you for a compression rate. I usually go with 60%, I find that any lower and the quality starts to fade. For models I use MDX Squisher.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

Could you send me the MDX Squisher? Because mine didn't work, ty.

 

[Kam]

Well that's odd, it was up for dl here I thought. What's you email and I'll send you the app.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

Review

Ok here is my review Kam as promised;

- Heroes need to be changed more. They have no custom abilities.
- Towers are way to weak, I suggest you make them stronger.
- Change the Death-Knight sound.
+ My AI .
+ Many custom models fit into the warcraft theme, good job on that.
+ I like the Runes spell from the Ogre.
+ Good filesize for such a map.
x You should give the grunt a custom skin, they're plenty nice grunt skins on this website. Also the footman could be given a custom skin
x I think it would also be more fun if you make battles more fast paced (that they don't take ages like normal WCR3) and make heroes deal more damage but also lower they're hit points.
Conclusion;
The map looks good and is fun to play. This map could use some minor changes and tweaks (see above). I find the map idea good and I hope you make the map a bit more WCR2ish.

 

[VeljkoM]

Why change Grunts.They are Classic.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

Cause they're much more beatifull skins for the Grunt, the old on looks a bit ugly I think.

 

[VeljkoM]

I don't like skins.Models are better.And Grunt is the LAW.
But that's my opinion.

 

[Kam]

Well to be honest at this point I am hesitant about adding more without removing something. File size is important on bnet. I may or may not remove the upper tier naval units which will free up some space.

And thanks for the review.

 

[VeljkoM]

You aren't going to add skin to the grunt are you.That is just unnecessary adding to size.
Maybe you should remove upper tier naval units considering AI.

 

[Kam]

Well I doubt my map will ever have naval AI. If I can get someone to make the ground AI the equivalent of a real person in skill, it can compete even without a navy since all naval units had their hit points reduced drastically in this version.

I did make an exception for skins, I don't know if anyone noticed I replaced the axe thrower skin with a wc2 version. But that's the only skin that wasn't for a imported model.

I think the next version will be mainly balance changes, bug fixes and just smoothing things out.