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Why are WoW models not allowed?

Discussion in 'Modeling & Animation' started by Urlock, Feb 13, 2007.

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  1. Jaakko

    Jaakko

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    Warcraft III and WoW are made by the same company so I don't see the big deal in using WoW models.
     
  2. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

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    No, they aren't. The models are made by completely seperate groups.

    COME ON MAN, READ THE BLOODY ARGUEMENTS. YOU VOID THE CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT YOU CLICK THROUGH WHEN YOU INSTALL THE GAME BY RIPPING OUT WOW MODELS FOR USE IN ANOTHER GAME.


    What's so hard to understand about that? It doesn't matter whether your best friends brother made the fucking models, unless you have express permission from Blizzard/the creator, you can't use their fucking content in your map.
     
  3. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

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    This iPod is made by Apple. Therefore, I think I'm entitled to an iPhone as well.

    Look, you bought WARCRAFT III. Not BLIZZARD.
     
  4. Darkholme

    Darkholme

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    ==1. Analogy Criticism==
    =====================
    Your analogy isn't too good. a more accurate one would be more like "This iMac has some nifty software that came with it. My Macbook didnt come with the same software, but since I own both I'm going to transfer the files from one to the other and then mess with them until I make it work."

    Your analogy basically says instead of ripping models from WoW, they are playing a pirated copy of WoW and using the fact that they paid for Wc3 as validation.



    ==2. My personal, and not quite humble Opinion==
    =========================================
    I get why the site doesn't use WoW models. I support the decision to be careful legally. But I also won't condemn anyone who does rip wow models and then use them. Yes it's definitely more creative to make your own, and its pathetic if you actually claim the models.

    But at the same time they make more than decent placeholders for the hero you dont have a model for yet, or something thats ok to have a high(ish) polycount. - an optimized wow model is like 1500 polys. I think I've seen wc3 Heroes (a couple anyways) with about 1200. so the lag is a non issue unless youre filling the screen with them or they arent optimized.

    And if the thing exists in WoW and has no model in WC3 and you are trying to make the exact thing from WoW, I don't really give a damn if you use it or not, as long as it doesn't look out of place, and the tweaks are made to give it all the things wc3 models have (portraits, hero glow if necessary, properly named bones, functional clicky sphere) for functionality.

    But that's just me, once again. Course, I also think if you do that it's perfectly fair to not allow it to be hosted on a site you don't own, because if you do in fact get in trouble for it (doubtful as that may be) the site shouldn't suffer.

    I should note that although I may rip wow models for messing around in a personal map here on campus with my friends "Hey I want to play as a X(WoW Creature) hero", I would use an original model if I actually released anything.

    I will note that it's wrong to rip models out of WoW if you never paid for WoW, however, buying one of those 1.99 DVD trials would suffice for making it - not wrong.



    ==3. Political Comment==
    =====================
    And to finish my post with a political comment, American Copyright laws are absolutely absurd. And their absurdity cause people to get sued/charged over the most ridiculous things. I don't actually expect anyone to agree with that last line, but I felt my opinion was necessary to explain my position ~Darkholme



    ==4. Amusing Information==
    ========================
    Funny fact #1: In Canada, you can download anything you want that is copyrighted, because it's perfectly legitimate to make copies for yourself of things you own (like if you own a DVD you can legally download a rip of it, and they can't legally search your place to check if you really own it because of invasion of privacy rules). You can only get in trouble for uploading things, and the penalty is a fine based on the price of the thing and the amount they can prove you uploaded. - however, 4/5 of the major internet companies won't disclose any confidential information, save for if it's verified as downloaded child pornography (in which case the company checks to see if it really is child pornography before giving out all the personal info such as data transfer addresses etc).

    Funny Fact #2: Due to a loophole in our laws which has not yet been corrected, you can pirate satellite TV as long as it's not Canadian satellite TV.

    Edit: This was ranty. So I reorganized my rantiness to make it more legible.



    ==5. Sidenote: It's still not theft==
    =============================
    While editing this I had an additional thought. Using a model from WoW (or any game for that matter) is not like theft, it's like a citation in an essay. If you give due credit, since you're only using part of the work, an 'idea' and not claiming the idea as your own, it's not theft. And if you don't give credit, still not theft ~ Plagiarism.
    None of the definitions of theft I've ever seen would apply to the model example.
    1. The owner of the concept isn't deprived of the model.
    2. The model isn't a hole product being used it's a portion, and a certain portion of work is legally allowed to be copied as long as credit is given
    3. The owner will not lose profit from this - it theoretically actually increases profit, as there is the small but real possibility that someone will buy Warcraft III after playing this custom map - not because of the single player. (I bought WcIII after playing the old Advent of the Zenith with the ripped imp model for example - and scamp was in fact my favorite hero - without his own 'original model' at the time) - before that I used to play with my best friend's cd and key on my PC, as we never played at the same time, and I have 0 interest in battle net cause I can't stand the immature idiots I run into there constantly. (People who say "GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO" before I start the map instantly get booted and I boot them from then on, because theyre useless.)



    == 6. Conculsatory statement==
    ===========================
    WOW! What a rant! I feel infinitely better about all my frustrations now, even though this has nothing to do with my personal frustrations which are in fact all university and scheduling related.

    And--I'm done. Also, to reiterate, that I support the Hive not having them up here. They just want to cover their asses by being especially (if excessivly) careful. Use WoW models if you wish, but don't do it here. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2008
  5. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    Precisely. Nobody can stop you from ripping these models, however using them in a map, uploading them on a website, or putting them on the internet is illegal. You can admire them all you want on your HD, but don't get them on the internet.

    A more accurate analogy than a citation is a work of art. Hell, WoW models ARE a work of art. You cannot use another piece of art without permission, if you have any respect for morals, the author, or the copyright laws under which it is protected. The copyright laws are not ridiculous, they are there to prevent ridiculous people pissing all over the hard work of others. And if you really want to use these models, learn to model and texture yourself, then maybe you'll get a sense of appreciation for the work these people have done.

    Not to mention, using WoW models in maps are horribly horribly impractical, not due to the poly count, but due to the hundreds of useless cinematic animations, high quality textures, and blindingly ugly contrast between the normal WC3 units.

    So there you go. A moral, legal, and practical view on this matter.
    --donut3.5--
     
  6. sirevil

    sirevil

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    heres what i have to say, WoW just don't look like they fit in warcraft 3.

    if you can edit them where they look like they belong in game along with deleting some animations, and adding a few new ones (bones, decay) i think that might be cool, right?
    and i believe there is a lot of work to be done with WoW models to get it to be like that
     
  7. Darkholme

    Darkholme

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    The map thing is supported by my citation comment which you disagree with.

    Permission is good, but is you are only using a section of the art then due credit should be sufficient.

    If you use the argument that using part work without permission is bad then all skins and models not made from scratch, or containing attachments from other models or geoset merges or other models animations would all also be wrong - removing like 75 or more % of all modding for ALL games. Your PoV seems to make using altered WC3 models/skins/animations wrong too.

    "And if you really want to use these models, learn to model and texture yourself, then maybe you'll get a sense of appreciation for the work these people have done." This statement is illogical. If they want to use "these" models, making different models doesn't solve the first problem. Just gives insight into the work that goes into modeling, possibly motivating them TO use it and settle for listing credits as opposed to pouring the time into doing it themself from scratch.. If you were directing it at me, I both skin and model, and appreciating someones work would make me MORE likely to want to use their model, cause who wants to use a model that sucks? I also said I would prefer to use models I made myself, but I don't see any distinction between models in one game I paid for versus models in another game I paid for (or a problem with playing with them in the other game).

    I did in fact mention that they should be optimized if they are going to be used in WC3 to remove all the useless and redundant data, and to make any data that's needed which does not exist. And you exaggerate the number of animations per model. Shrink the texture (though many are the same size as the wc3 ones, just more detail) and you're fine on point 2. And the last point they actually fit in ok if you want a 'special unit' that stands out a bit, like a hero, or a bigass monster that is only gonna be one in the map.

    It's not the hugest amount of work. It's not like 5 minutes of work either. But that was actually my point. If they're optimized and tweaked for Wc3, they would work in a map, and I wouldn't see anything wrong with it (again, give credit), though the people here at the site would, which is why I said don't upload it here, and put it up on your own page if you want to put it somewhere.

    lol. or do like ROM sites (with your map/personal website), and put a disclaimer that by downloading you are agreeing that you own a copy of the original source of the data (in this case WoW) and that anyone who downloads it without owning WoW is acting on their own. You can go further and add a section where you say that giving the file to others you know explicitly do not own the original is acting on their own, and you assume no liability for any of their actions.

    Frankly it doesn't matter to me really, I just find the discussion mentally stimulating, and find the various approaches to the issue amusing.
     
  8. HappyTauren

    HappyTauren

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    There is no way you can make wow models work in wc3. It is not only polycount or anything... Just look at them. Uber detailed animations, detailed textures (MUCH less cartoonies), high polycount and so on. It isnt point in POLYCOUNT. Its a point in DETAIL. For example, wc3 models usually use 2 or three segments for legs, and wow ones use like eight. Then, wow models have bad shading, because wow supports shaders. There are only a few succesfull wow textures though, the Crab one, Hydra one, and Boar one. They are all in wc3. BUT WHAT? Their animations are less detailed than those from wow, have (hydra for example) MUCH lower polycount, and have all that wc3 model needs already.
     
  9. Darkholme

    Darkholme

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    Depending on what models you compare, the difference in level of detail may not be very noticable. Like in this picture.

    Of course, in others, it'll be more obvious.

    That doesn't necessarily mean the lower detailed one is the better one though. Depending on the map you're making, and what the model is being used for, more detail could be better. Non-standard cameras (or like those in cinematics) would do this to a larger extent.

    An example of when you want more Detail. I'm making an AoS (slowly), that the camera is closer, and always centered on your character. I will not use the model for Tyrande (the moon Priestess) - a 486 poly model, even the standard unit huntress has more at 651. it looks like ass from anything but a birds eye view.

    I'm not saying using a direct rip from wow with no alterations is the most useful thing to do, but if a model from wow is closer to what you need, it makes an ok placeholder until you modify it (remove the geosets used for shaders, add teamcolor to the skin, maybe lower the polycount with some merges, remove unused animations, etc). If you really want to, it's not that hard to cartoony a skin(way easier than un-cartoonying). Hell, add some shading to the skin. If you're really pathetic at skinning, you can probably FILTER it to be like a wc3 skin. (I'm not kidding - smart blur, raise the contrast, play with brightness, color balance, and levels, and TADA)

    I suppose the issue nobody has covered is, "What about using WoW models as a base instead of using Wc3 Models as a base?" - the polycount is a bit high (maybe 300 more polies than a high detail hero

    Ok. the average hero has 600-800 polys. WoW models for rares, such as the troll I used for this example, have about 1500. Illidan has about that much, but has 2 forms. So, cut the number of polys in half. After removing unused geosets, it's not that hard (maybe a couple hours) to merge about half the polys. (I didn't in my example, thats just a straight rip)

    ==Edit
    I thought since I said it was so easy to wc3 a skin, I'll show you what I made in 20 minutes, to illustrate my point. - it was a little harder than filters, but filters did maybe 35% of it, then lots of smudge tool and some lighting effects via screen and multiply to make more shading. overall not all that hard. Original skin from WoW on the right. To further WC3 it, make the tattoos be teamcolor.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 4, 2008
  10. Pyritie

    Pyritie

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    If you edit a wow model enough (usually a lot) so it would fit nicely in wc3 and be a reasonable size, then I don't see why it's any different than editing a wc3 model.

    What the main issue here though is just going straight from wow to wc3 with nothing in between (save for a few file type conversions)
     
  11. BlinkBoy

    BlinkBoy

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    Darkholme, I'll answer your statements, ignoring the first 2 since they are personal points of view.

    3rd Statement (==3. Political Comment==)

    we guide through international copyright laws here, and as they have been written they most be followed, so don't state that because some(american's in this case) are absurd for you, you can ignore then and disobey them.

    4th Statement (==4. Amusing Information==)

    1rst "Opinion" (you never proved it a fact you just made it up), in Canada downloading copyrighted content is illegal, atleast in Ontario, my brother-in-law, who lives in Toronto, recieved a communicate concerning this matter from the goverment adverticing the cut of internet service if this action continued.

    According to most countries' laws(is not inside the international agreements), copying a copyrighted material that you own is not illegal if, only IF, the company does not support backuping for the broken CD or the lost of the copyrighted material. (Blizzard Entertaiment supports the backuping of their products, so it's ILLAGAL to copy Warcraft, Starcraft or Diablo TM products, except those which have lost this support[Warcraft 1]).

    2nd "Opinion" that matter, the Canadian TV, is unrelated to the subject in discussion.

    5th Statement (==5. Sidenote: It's still not theft==)

    You don't say what's theft and what's not, laws say so; and laws agree that the action is against the authors copyrights.

    okey, now lets get into matter.

    First, you aren't copying an idea, but taking something concrete, and you DON'T credit ideas, but YOU CITE ideas according to 2 patterns, the Washignton D.C's National Bibliothek pattern for citing authors, or the European pattern.

    Now you appointed 3 statements inside this body:

    He looses the right to keep it inside the whole of the license agreement within the product, which specified that the content of the product had only been made for the purpose of being used within the product.

    This things are protected by the license agreement, and dues is protected by the international law, according to it you won't altere, or extract any content within the product. So your opinion once more falls to law.
     
  12. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    Study copyright laws. There are even international copyright laws if you want to look them up.
    Editing artwork or using sections of it without permission is illegal and still considered stealing.
    Oh, and by the way: This is about uploading the models on the website anyways, read the rules: You cannot submit anyone else's artwork, and you cannot edit anyone else's artwork without their permission. Doing either of these is horribly immoral.
    WC3 edits are allowed because Blizzard granted us the rights. They never said anything about their other games.
    --donut3.5--
     
  13. Darkholme

    Darkholme

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    I am aware of the site's rules, and did not say they were wrong. I had no idea Blizzard gave explicit permission to mod WC3 graphics. And as for the immoral part, not everyone agrees on what is or is not moral, morally this is kindof gray material, and I personally don't view it as immoral - if you want to throw it back at me, I would be perfectly ok with someone using my work and then editing it and resubmitting it and claiming their own work, assuming they list me as the original creator. - donut 3.5.

    And Perhaps I'll look up those copyright laws again, as apparently law class was inaccurate.

    As for the 4th statement "supposed opinion" - this was one of the reasons that legal issues for ISOHUNT.com were dropped. That's my source of info on this one. It was how the judge ruled, and canadian law is largely based on precedents.

    I'll double check this info I'm being told I'm incorrect on, perhaps you are right.

    "Washignton D.C's National Bibliothek pattern for citing authors, or the European pattern."

    We Use MLA and APA. APA is your washington one, which is only used in sociology and psychology here, and we use MLA for just about everything else, which is based out of NY. I'm not even sure what the european pattern is / would be.

    So I may be off on some legal things, I'll see if I can find the info on that later (likely not soon), but I'm ok with thinking laws are stupid.

    We have some retarded laws here too. I know of one that's not enforced from my hometown that says you can't drive cars on the road because you'll spook the horses. as for one that is enforced, the banning of breeds of dogs (many with less than average incidents for other breeds) that happened in ontario in like 2004 was one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard of. The Premier (thats like a governor for you american folks) of Ontario, couldnt even identify the breeds he was banning, and the incidents he was banning over were by mutt dogs, not dogs of the breeds that were banned. The other provinces basically called him retarded and told him they should have just enforced the animal control laws they had instead of putting discriminatory and illogical laws up (to get votes, because they hyped up the incidents to make people panic). I was hoping he would get death threats and violence until he stopped being retarded or someone killed him, but they passed the bill and now Ontario is a domestic pet racist province.

    So anyways. I disagree with stupid laws (I also decide for myself which ones I think are stupid). I call governments stupid if I think they deserve it. I criticize what I see wrong, and I don't care which country it is that I disagree with. Often its my own!

    I promise I won't claim anyone else's work, and I won't put edited models from other games up here. I was mostly just stating an opinion - and ranting a bit. Just so you know.

    I disagree with if its an Idea or not, because if its heavily edited and doesnt look the same anymore then its the Idea thats leftover. So I'll cite it in MLA format if I ever use anything in a Map that I don't put up here because it breaks a site rule or something.

    As I only play Warcraft III in single player and Lan Games (and occasionally a 1 on 1 bnet game that is private with the friends I lan with), I'm not particularly worried about this issue because most of the things I make just stay between me and my friends anyways, and nothing I make that breaks the site rules will come on here.

    And I just edited the troll to prove its relatively easy to make WoW models blend into WC3.


    --------------------------


    Oddly enough, I almost never talk about politics unless I go into rant mode, which I went into the other day when I started posting in this thread. I usually disagree with what my own government does too. Alot of canadians that I know distrust our government - fact. They prove themselves corrupt or incompetent at most opportunities - opinion. Many of us think the same about some of the other countries policies too - fact, but relatively small sample size statistically speaking.

    If I spoke the language I'd probably say F*** north america and go move to a scandinavian country. Possibly Norway. or Finland. They seem to mostly have laws I don't consider ridiculous from what I've read - I'd need more info before making a final decision. But I don't speak either language, and Norway is virtually impossible to immigrate to. So here I am. at least I still have free health care.

    --------------------------------
    I'm done with the political and law speaking. If you have a conservative view about a given law that doesnt involve reinstating the death penalty for rape and murder, feel free to assume I disagree with it unless I say otherwise. Particularly if it involves transfer of information and the regulating or censoring thereof. Sometimes I disagree with people just to see if they have a valid argument and I don't even disagree with them. I think vigilante-ing should be legal in given situations too.

    So I'll try to avoid posting political comments people may disagree with for a while, and if you ever want to ask me my opinion for some reason send me an email.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
  14. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    Nah, you got it backwards. If you heavily edit it, the idea is gone, but the art is still there. Nonmaterialized ideas you can take, but art you cannot.
    --donut3.5--
     
  15. Darkholme

    Darkholme

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    I still see it like quoting (modified models, not just rips) if you give credit. Whatever, agree to disagree. :)

    Feel free to follow the concept I just stated if you ever want to use my work as a base for your own. Just quote it with a link, a-la MLA style.

    That works to make my work cohere to my opinions even to the explicit license stated opinion people.
     
  16. sirevil

    sirevil

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    those or more of would i would like to see for edited models, but still looks kind of high poly. to me wc3 models look thicker

    i think is more if you use it for profit then its a real problem for them

    i play wow but on my roommates computer (mines not powerful enough) but before then i made his,
    http://sirevil.deviantart.com/art/Gildus-Returns-31846813
    a few months later i met some guys from blizzard at a video games live concert. they saw it and loved it, in fact they signed a printed copy i have on me
     
  17. SuPa-

    SuPa-

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    Let me just put this out for you because this 'intelligent discussion' is rather pointless. I don't care about your opinions, I don't care if you think it's wrong or not, and it doesn't matter what you think. It's stealing and your opinion doesn't change the copyrights of their models
     
  18. Darkholme

    Darkholme

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    Well we clearly have your opinion on the "if you think it's wrong or not", a detail upon which many of the rest of us do not agree. And we aren't breaking the rules of the site, because we aren't showing anyone how to do so, or putting anything up, we're stating opinions. Opinions you disagree with maybe, but still opinions we have a right to have.

    "It's stealing and your opinion doesn't change the copyrights of their models" - our opinions aren't about whether or not the models are copyrighted. They Are. We know that. what we're commenting on is whether we find said copyright to be relevent information, and in which situations we do or do not give a rats ass.

    My personal opinion, which you won't likely care for, but that I am giving anyways, is that if I pay money for a game, I'll do what I want with it or any part of it. This includes modifying it if I feel so inclined. - whether it is mentioned in the user agreement or not isn't particularly relevant information. I voided the warranty on my PS2 the day I bought it so I could open it up and look at it, and then a month later I got a mod chip put in. I don't buy warranties because I know I'll void them in a few days. - Hell, I'm buying a used PS1 specifically so I can take it apart and mess with it, which is against what is made for too. And I modded WoW to have less ugly male nightelf skins.

    An individual's morals do not always match up perfectly with political boundaries of the region. They also may not be the same as the morals of another person standing next them. That doesn't mean they have no morals, but that their morals may differ on specific points - which is part of how thir personalities differ. hence the discussion leading into opinions.

    Now I'm gonna go for lunch and thn go to class. I'll look to see what other people write when I get back.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
  19. HappyTauren

    HappyTauren

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    you havent paid game content. You have paid ability to play. Also review wow eula once again.
     
  20. Elenai

    Elenai

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    WhY CaNt wE iMpOrt WoW mOdUlez plOx? hOW dO I gEt WoW MoDulEz fRuM WoW?


    Its annoying huh? Its annoying huh? Its annoying huh? Its annoying huh?


    This is what this thread is like now...Why must it be brought up to life?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2008
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