What if God..

[Elenai]

Because god tells him to.

wrong...

Than 2 million people? Yeah, I do that when I'm bored.

*facepalm*

What? How did satan ruin peoples' lives?

Do you even know what Satan is? The corrupter of that which was once wholly good? He who introduced the choice to sin?

And if you mean the eden thing, that was just god being a jealous and megalomaniacal jerk like usual in the OT.

Unrepentant abuse of free will on our part makes God a jerk?

On a personal note, that statement takes away some of the respect I had for you :/

I find it interesting that you find your god to be merciful while believing that you have to suck up to him to not be tortured for eternity. Yay!

Because apparently you get sent to hell by god if he doesn't like you?

This will be the 300th time I've gone over this...

God doesn't send you to Hell, you go there of your own choice. If you don't want to be with God, why should God have you in Heaven, or in the New Creation? Why should he force you to be with him...if you don't want to be? He doesn't send you anywhere. If you want to be with God, he'll take you up! And you'll be glad yay! If you don't, he'll just let you slip off his property (like...earth, n' stuff), and into the only place where you won't have to be with him, or feel his presence. Hell. Which is only Hell because unfortunately murderers, rapists, hitler, stalin, mao, <insert evil persons here>, live there too, and are free to do what ever they please without limit..which inevitably turns out to be torturing people, and being tortured themselves in a devilish free for all.

 

[Arvedui]

Because god tells him to.

Than 2 million people? Yeah, I do that when I'm bored.

I think Elenai meant people in a more broad term. People have killed more people than God has killed.

But if you truly believe in God the people that he's killed either go to heaven, or go to hell. And, depending on what you believe, everyone in hell eventually goes to heaven.

I find it interesting that you find your god to be merciful while believing that you have to suck up to him to not be tortured for eternity. Yay!

You're assuming that Hell is all fire, torture, little demons and shit.

Hell, as far as I've learned, is the absence of the presence of God. That's torture to the soul, but not physical torture in the way you're thinking of it.

 

[Gausslander]

Arvedui, so all of that burn in hell stuff is just atheist propaganda huh?
Is Lucifer really a bunny? You can tell me.

 

[Arvedui]

Arvedui, so all of that burn in hell stuff is just atheist propaganda huh?
Is Lucifer really a bunny? You can tell me.

Lol! No, it's mostly because people read Paradise Lost, or Dante's Inferno and are like "Zomg hell must be fire! lulz!"

Yes, Lucifer is a bunny. He'll rip your fucking throat out with those giant buck teeth

 

[Pyritie]

Lol! No, it's mostly because people read Paradise Lost, or Dante's Inferno and are like "Zomg hell must be fire! lulz!"

Actually it says that when Lucifer got there it was all firey and crappy but then he used some sort of powers to make extravagant buildings and palaces and stuff. Also god isn't exactly portrayed in a good light either. ;P

 

[Aschy]

Because apparently you get sent to hell by god if he doesn't like you?

SOMEONE PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE HELL IS IN THE BIBLE!

What? How did satan ruin peoples' lives?

And if you mean the eden thing, that was just god being a jealous and megalomaniacal jerk like usual in the OT.

He who introduced the choice to sin?

This is the point behind the Adam and Eve story, many people believe it to be just a fictional story but I do not. But whether it is real or not, some where in the beginning of time Satan persuaded mankind to do his bidding, and not Gods.

Satan was one of Gods creations not another God, no where in Satan's rights could he ask for people to worship him and not God. But being the God Jehovah is, he didn't even get rid of Satan he allowed him to carry along with his master plan.

I find it interesting that you find your god to be merciful while believing that you have to suck up to him to not be tortured for eternity. Yay!

Suck up, more like get to know, read the Bible you will find all out about Gods mercy. God can read heart conditions meaning that if you were doing it only for yourself he would know it.

Tortured for Eternity? Where? Refer to quote 1?

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Arvedui]

Actually it says that when Lucifer got there it was all firey and crappy but then he used some sort of powers to make extravagant buildings and palaces and stuff. Also god isn't exactly portrayed in a good light either. ;P

Same difference, the point is the same. Modern people tend to view Hell as a fiery fucking chasm with little red demons with pitch-forks and shit like that.

When in actuality the definition of Hell is just the absence of the presence of God.

 

[PurplePoot]

Unrepentant abuse of free will on our part makes God a jerk?

"You can have free will, as long as you do what I tell you to." Sounds like free will to me.

God doesn't send you to Hell, you go there of your own choice. If you don't want to be with God, why should God have you in Heaven, or in the New Creation? Why should he force you to be with him...if you don't want to be? He doesn't send you anywhere. If you want to be with God, he'll take you up! And you'll be glad yay! If you don't, he'll just let you slip off his property (like...earth, n' stuff), and into the only place where you won't have to be with him, or feel his presence. Hell. Which is only Hell because unfortunately murderers, rapists, hitler, stalin, mao, <insert evil persons here>, live there too, and are free to do what ever they please without limit..which inevitably turns out to be torturing people, and being tortured themselves in a devilish free for all.

Not true, or else no one would be in hell because they wouldn't want to be... Besides, if you "don't accept Jesus" then you go to hell, no?

 

[Arvedui]

"You can have free will, as long as you do what I tell you to." Sounds like free will to me.

God wants you to do what he wants you to do, but as we have free will, he doesn't force us.

Not true, or else no one would be in hell because they wouldn't want to be... Besides, if you "don't accept Jesus" then you go to hell, no?

That's a very limited point of view. Maybe Elenai has that point of view, I don't know, but I wouldn't label him like that.

Personally, I think that if you're truly Christian then you accept everyone as God's Children, no matter what race/color/creed.

Do we, as Christians, think they're wrong when they're not Christian? Yes, we do. But don't Atheists do the same? I would say so, as proven by this thread

I personally believe that if God truly is a benevolent God then everyone except for the absolutely corrupt at heart will go to heaven.

Yes, even you PurplePoot!

 

[Elenai]

Not true, or else no one would be in hell because they wouldn't want to be... Besides, if you "don't accept Jesus" then you go to hell, no?

God: Do you want to live with me at my house?

Person: No

God: Well...alright...but when you are finished living, please leave the yard.

Person: But...the only place outside of the yard is a junkyard filled with ravenous dogs...

God: Do you want to live with me?

Person: No.

God: Sorry...those are your only choices, you can't stay on the lawn...that is for living people. Are you sure you don't want to come in?

Person: I'll take my chances with the dogs...

 

[Aschy]

Personally, I think that if you're truly Christian then you accept everyone as God's Children, no matter what race/color/creed.

Do we, as Christians, think they're wrong when they're not Christian? Yes, we do. But don't Atheists do the same? I would say so, as proven by this thread

So do Christians assume that even other religions that believe in one God are wrong? (I mean the Juedo-Christian God/Jehovah)

I personally believe that if God truly is a benevolent God then everyone except for the absolutely corrupt at heart will go to heaven.

Yes, even you PurplePoot!

I believe this also but I really don't think anyone is really "bad". I think people either have some really traumatic event in there childhood, bad parenting, or they just don't understand what "life" really is, and are sick. Maybe they know that they are killing someone but don't understand the full repercussions of there actions like jail or in my beliefs your name crossed off the "Book of Life" until you repent.

 

[PurplePoot]

<religion stuff>

The difference is that we don't threaten people with eternal suffering if they don't agree with us. Whether or not you specifically believe in that, the bible says it.

 

[Elenai]

The difference is that we don't threaten people with eternal suffering if they don't agree with us. Whether or not you specifically believe in that, the bible says it.

A warning of pending danger isn't a threat...

"Don't do drugs, it will kill you: ARE YOU THREATENING ME?!?!?!?!""

Doesn't make much sense does it?

On a different note: You claim we threaten you with Hell...and yet it is perfectly ok for you to tell us that the god we worship is an evil, megalomaniac jerk, who is a malevolent force, bent on destroying our sense of freedom? Is that really nice of you to day?

Haha...don't make this seem so one sided Purplepoot...We are not the only ones 'with flaws'.

 

[GrandEnder]

I think there was something called limbo for those who don't (didn't get the chance to) beleive in God, but were good in life. Maybe the person lived in the porch of god's house.

 

[PurplePoot]

A warning of pending danger isn't a threat...

However, you claim we threaten you with Hell...and yet it is perfectly ok for you to tell us that the god we worship is an evil one, who is a malevolent force? Haha...don't make this seem so one sided Purplepoot...

It isn't a warning of pending danger since there is no hard evidence to support it (we've been over that a million times, no?).

You may be right, but that doesn't mean you have to threaten us on the way.

 

[Elenai]

It isn't a warning of pending danger since there is no hard evidence to support it (we've been over that a million times, no?).

Often times the deadliest killer, is what you do not yet see.

You may be right, but that doesn't mean you have to threaten us on the way.

How am I threatening you? I am simply saying...better be careful, the edge is slippery, perhaps you should lean this way lest you fall. I am not going to push you into the abyss if you do not obey.

 

[Gausslander]

In least wearing pirate regalia won't get me sent to hell, now will it? ;-)

 

[Aschy]

The difference is that we don't threaten people with eternal suffering if they don't agree with us. Whether or not you specifically believe in that, the bible says it.

Believing in God doesn't mean you are afraid of dieing in hell or Armageddon (What ever you believe in) it means you see more of a point then eating, shitting, fucking and sleeping to this world.

Often times the deadliest killer, is what you do not yet see.

Matthew 13: 14,15

‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

Ok the Bible never says you will suffer directly:

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

Those who don't want to live by God's laws (Those not found in the book) will be killed, it never says anything about a hell or torture.

If you wish to discuss the other scriptures that claim that there is a hell on earth post them.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

I think there was something called limbo for those who don't (didn't get the chance to) beleive in God, but were good in life. Maybe the person lived in the porch of god's house.

Limbo/purgatory is where souls wait as they are judged, before they are sent to either heaven or hell.

 

[Gausslander]

Yes, but purgatory isn't in the bible. It was created by the Catholic Church.

 

[GrandEnder]

The bible is uncreative, I mean 'Lake of Fire', really? Can't it be a lake of something better!

 

[PurplePoot]

Often times the deadliest killer, is what you do not yet see.

And much more often it's a load of shit.

Believing in God doesn't mean you are afraid of dieing in hell or Armageddon (What ever you believe in) it means you see more of a point then eating, shitting, fucking and sleeping to this world.

Learning? Understanding? Enjoying life? Not deluding oneself with false hope?

<Bible stuff>

The bible supports the bible. Surprise!

Ok the Bible never says you will suffer directly:

It says you will be tossed into a lake of fire. I'm sure we can agree that would be painful (assuming that it somehow made sense).

Those who don't want to live by God's laws (Those not found in the book) will be killed, it never says anything about a hell or torture.

Except for, say, that lake of fire bit you just quoted.

If you wish to discuss the other scriptures that claim that there is a hell on earth post them.

If it doesn't say it in the bible, where did the universal concept of hell come from?

--

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

-Steven Roberts​

 

[leet.firefox]

The bible is uncreative, I mean 'Lake of Fire', really? Can't it be a lake of something better!

Lake of Firey Sheep?

 

[GrandEnder]

Exactly what I am saying!

 

[Elenai]

And much more often it's a load of shit.

GET OUT! CHLORINE GAS LEAK! RUN!

I'll wait for the environmental team to prove that chlorine gas has...*drops dead*

Learning? Understanding? Enjoying life? Not deluding oneself with false hope?

First, prove to us that it is a false hope. Second, even if it does turn out to be a false hope (I have absolutely no reason to doubt God and Heaven's existence from experience), it is far better than despair.

It says you will be tossed into a lake of fire. I'm sure we can agree that would be painful (assuming that it somehow made sense).

Except for, say, that lake of fire bit you just quoted.

You have a choice to avoid it...It isn't God's fault he has to be perfectly just, as well as loving. You broke the rules...not him.

If it doesn't say it in the bible, where did the universal concept of hell come from?

Hell is in the bible. Not sure where he missed it though...

--

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

-Steven Roberts

"Give credit, where credit is due."

-unknown-

 

[PurplePoot]

GET OUT! CHLORINE GAS LEAK! RUN!

I'll wait for the environmental team to prove that chlorine gas has...*drops dead*

Chlorine gas is a very visible shade of green. Assuming you actually meant a clear, colourless gas (say, phosgene), if I had any reason to believe them then yes, I probably would get out. If they were full of shit, I would make note of it later.

However, if I was in my house and someone yelled that there was a phosgene gas leak, I'd ask them what drugs they were smoking.

First, prove to us that it is a false hope. Second, even if it does turn out to be a false hope (I have absolutely no reason to doubt God and Heaven's existence from experience), it is far better than despair.

You're looking at the issue as black and white. You don't have to be happy and a christian or unhappy and an atheist. Not only could you be a happy atheist or an unhappy christian, you could be anywhere in between.

You have a choice to avoid it...It isn't God's fault he has to be perfectly just, as well as loving. You broke the rules...not him.

"Give me all your money or you die."

I'm sure you would take them to court over that one.

"Give credit, where credit is due."

-unknown-

I agree. And I don't give it where it isn't.

 

[Elenai]

Chlorine gas is a very visible shade of green. Assuming you actually meant a clear, colourless gas (say, phosgene), if I had any reason to believe them then yes, I probably would get out. If they were full of shit, I would make note of it later.

It has been a while since chemistry...I stand corrected. It was the first deadly gas to come to mind.

However, the point I made still stands.

You're looking at the issue as black and white. You don't have to be happy and a christian or unhappy and an atheist. Not only could you be a happy atheist or an unhappy christian, you could be anywhere in between.

Until death...where one of us is going to probably going to be right...I believe I'll be rather happy in the afterlife. Or else if there is none, be ever so dead...

"Give me all your money or you die."

I'm sure you would take them to court over that one.

God doesn't rob. Besides...if he wanted anything you have, it is his...you just happen to be taking care of it.

I agree. And I don't give it where it isn't.

Alrighty.

 

[Aschy]

Learning? Understanding? Enjoying life? Not deluding oneself with false hope?

eating and sleeping(learning and understanding) perhaps?fucking and shitting (enjoying) perhaps?

I wish I could be atheist man believe me, it's my experiences that make my beliefs not what I hope how shit went down. It to me is totally not seen it as a "false hope".

The bible supports the bible. Surprise!

I'm actually using the bible for something other than a story book, holy shit someone call up the Bible police.

If it doesn't say it in the bible, where did the universal concept of hell come from?

Christian's apparently, I never was brought up in believing in hell due to the lack of evidence in scripture and in life.

I don't remember if the lake of sulfur and fire (I know all I said is lake of fire in previous post, surprise I changed the rules) is literal. But all I know is that it means in Armageddon demons, Satan, and possibly "bad" people are going to get pwnt.

 

[PurplePoot]

eating and sleeping(learning and understanding) perhaps?fucking and shitting (enjoying) perhaps?

That's an incredibly shallow view. The first half doesn't even make sense. How do eating and sleeping have to do with learning and understanding [the universe is implied here]?

I wish I could be atheist man believe me, it's my experiences that make my beliefs not what I hope how shit went down. It to me is totally not seen it as a "false hope".

How can you "wish" you were an atheist? If you don't believe in a god, you don't believe in a god. if you do, you do.

 

[Aschy]

That's an incredibly shallow view. The first half doesn't even make sense. How do eating and sleeping have to do with learning and understanding [the universe is implied here]?

I mean by this if we were created by evolution we would be able to do all the same things if we were create by God right?

So if God exists then doesn't that add a whole new element to why we are here?

How can you "wish" you were an atheist? If you don't believe in a god, you don't believe in a god. if you do, you do.

I live a questionable life style which I'm very proud of (I put huge thought into what makes things bad and what makes things good). I participate in the abuse of alcohol/drugs quite often because I don't see anything wrong with it, I do see people who are inexperienced in control of their life that do them though.


But because of this I take a huge chance with my religion that my life will not be ended in the event of Armageddon. If I was truly Atheist I would have experiences to show for it, and thus would not fear my judgment day.

 

[PurplePoot]

I mean by this if we were created by evolution we would be able to do all the same things if we were create by God right?

So if God exists then doesn't that add a whole new element to why we are here?

But does that make it more interesting or more correct? If anything it makes it less so.

 

[Aschy]

But does that make it more interesting or more correct? If anything it makes it less so.

Who gives a flying fuck really, there are drugs man. jk man


My religion is based from the Adam and Eve principle basically. And I'm pretty sure there like the only ones that believe this actually happened. They believe that the Garden of Eden was the only true paradise and the rest of the world was probably something like a tropical climate, with lots of trees/bushes that bear no fruit, there were probably a lot of fruit bearing trees too but nothing compared to the Garden of Eden. And that it is man's job to populate the earth, and make the entire earth a paradise for all of God's creation.


Really this is all cool and such to believe if your down with that shit, but give me a joint and a soccer ball and I'm amused for hours, give me someone to play with and you have a slacker on your hands.


Edit: And the answer to your question is no, it doesn't and I see your point on how evolution could be more fun though. But we do not know what God will tell us about science for that matter, he could tell us everything about anything which would take away from discovery (But look at all the people in wow with full tier sets, they obviously didn't get it all in one run it still is fun to redo the instance in which you got the gear(gear being the outcome and the boss strategy being the already discovered formula/ steps))

 

[Gausslander]

Second, even if it does turn out to be a false hope (I have absolutely no reason to doubt God and Heaven's existence from experience), it is far better than despair.

I'm pretty sure Richard Dawkins is enjoying his life, as am I and many other atheists.

The bible is uncreative, I mean 'Lake of Fire', really? Can't it be a lake of something better!

Note: Madonna wasn't born yet. Nothing more terrifying than fire at the time.

 

[Elenai]

First of all, that picture clearly has nothing to do with the current debate.

I'm pretty sure Richard Dawkins is enjoying his life, as am I and many other atheists.

Til the end comes.

 

[Joe-black-5]

Scyth-Master please don't post things like this cat picture
my dad name is Ahmed and i was insulted by it

 

[Elenai]

For that matter....picture removed.

 

[PurplePoot]

Til the end comes.

Of course you won't be happy alive... when you aren't alive. What's your point?

 

[Gilles]

If it doesn't say it in the bible, where did the universal concept of hell come from?

I'm pretty sure Hell is mentioned in the Bible. Purgatory isn't, but is a tradition in the Catholic Church.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

-Steven Roberts​

To me there are only two logical gods, God and Allah. I don't know much about Allah, but they seem to be very similar anyways.

--

I will again state that I believe we damn ourselves to Hell by rejecting God. God does not "punish" us.

 

[Aschy]

I'm pretty sure Hell is mentioned in the Bible. Purgatory isn't, but is a tradition in the Catholic Church.

Here is a link to why I think the catholic church believes in Hell, to me this is as hard to prove as the story of Adam and Eve, Noah's Arch & Tower of Bail, the account of when Job was tested by God to prove to Satan that when your a God fearing and God loving individual its hard to sway you.

Not to mention like Poot says

The Bible supports the Bible

As does the Christian Testament

The Christian Testament supports the Christian Testament

To me there are only two logical gods, God and Allah. I don't know much about Allah, but they seem to be very similar anyways.

Yeah I always thought Muslims got Allah basically from the story of the God.

Wtf, where are my 72 virgins

 

[Teh_Ephy]

...You're kidding. "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God". Arabic Christians refer to God as "Allah". Islam is an evolution of Christianity in the exact same way that Christianity is an evolution of Judaism. They sound like the same God because they are.

 

[Elenai]

Technically Islam is a branch off of Judaism as well.

Judaism -> Christianity (the law fulfilled in Christ, etc)

Judaism -> Islam (the faith revived in its true form, Muslims believe Christians and Jews edited the holy texts)

Christianity teaches salvation by grace, as the gift of God, which is the fulfillment of the old Jewish Law.

Islam teaches salvation by submission of the will to God, and following the laws in the Qur'an.

(correct me if I am wrong on Islam)

 

[Gilles]

Here is a link to why I think the catholic church believes in Hell, to me this is as hard to prove as the story of Adam and Eve, Noah's Arch & Tower of Bail, the account of when Job was tested by God to prove to Satan that when your a God fearing and God loving individual its hard to sway you.

I don't understand you at all.

...You're kidding. "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God". Arabic Christians refer to God as "Allah". Islam is an evolution of Christianity in the exact same way that Christianity is an evolution of Judaism. They sound like the same God because they are.

Pretty sure there are differences, like the Trinity.

 

[Gausslander]

Scyth-Master please don't post things like this cat picture
my dad name is Ahmed and i was insulted by it

My apologies.

Til the end comes.

And thus the "What if you're wrong" argument initiates itself upon the masses.

 

[Elenai]

And thus the "What if you're wrong" argument initiates itself upon the masses.

Indeed.

 

[Aschy]

I don't understand you at all.

Don't understand me say what, that I don't believe there is a hell?


The fact that I put the references to accounts was really a bad idea, it would be better if I had more background knowledge of why Christians believe hell exists.

The reason it was bad to reference those accounts was because, you may or may not believe that the "Garden of Eden", "Noah's Ark", "Tower of Bail", or the account of Satan telling God that Job would curse God to his very face, if he was to take but everything away from him. Job did lose everything his house, family, children, livestock, but he never blamed God once. For this Job was well rewarded. I actually believe these accounts to be actual fact, just like you who are Christian believe the scriptures that mention that there is a "hell" to be actual fact.

I'm sorry if that doesn't clear up my point.

The Christian Testament supports the Christian Testament

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm they also miss a bunch of other testaments, including the one I use "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" (A bible that is unaltered from its original state of the dead sea scrolls, except for a few grammar changes they would never twist the text, if they did I would not read it and if anyone has proof that they twist the text then tell me I WANT TO KNOW).

 

[PurplePoot]

Indeed.

YouTube - Richard Dawkins - "What if you're wrong?"

 

[Elenai]

He didn't answer the question. He cleverly avoided it.

 

[PurplePoot]

He did answer it. Read the video description (and watch the explanation) if you don't get it.

 

[Elenai]

No...all he did was ask the same question of us.

Asking a question != answering one.

So I suppose I'll ask again...what if you are wrong...and God does indeed exist?

 

[PurplePoot]

Did you watch the response?