what if Adam and Eve didn't ate the fruit?

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The writers would've thought of another story to explain the cause of all human ''sin''.

"And henceforth, let it be knowned throughout the realmes, Adam of God and Eve of God raided WalleMarte, stoled babies, gotte clothes and spent the rest of their lives infringeing on IKEA copyrighte lawes.
And the Serpent lieved forever more with legges."
 
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Ok, let's get back on topic and set the table straight. Let's talk about pre-fall of man in Genesis. You have Adam and Eve (whom I believe are representative for more than two people but that's just my opinion seeing that later in Genesis it reads, "And the sons of Adam married the daughter's of Eve") and they're chilling in the garden. So God commanded something along these lines (I'm paraphrasing), "Do not eat the forbidden fruit. It contains the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat it you will die".

Let's look at the parameters for the "knowledge of good and evil". In the pre-fall of man era there was no "good" or "evil". There simply was existence between mankind and God. So before they sinned they could not know evil because they had never sinned and thus they could not have know good either. It's a logical conundrum. For example, if I have no sense of sight, how can I tell the difference between light and dark? If I only know light, then it is only logical that I know the opposite of light, which is dark. For everything in conceptual existence, there is a contrast, light vs. heavy, quiet vs. loud, or good vs. evil.

Based on the conclusion I came to in the second paragraph, we'd have to understand the thought process of man with no sin nature. Because we all are born sinful, we cannot fathom what that world would be like because it is not how our brains operate. In the same way, we cannot conceive what heaven is like, only imagine, because it is a sinless place. It's like describing a duck to someone who have never seen it. That person's relationship to the duck in not direct. It can only be conveyed through our limited language or a picture, but that person will not have direct relationship to understanding what a duck is.

Lastly, predestination was mentioned. Predestination is a very simplistic argument that has a few holes. Let me outline predestination.
1. God can see the past, present, and future
2. We exist in the past and present, but do not know the future
3. Therefore God predestines our existence in the the future
It's easy to think this way, but sometimes God can be confusing (we are only humans after all). Look at it this way instead:
1. We exist within a universe that has physical parameters such as space and time.
2. God is omnipresent, which means He exists within and outside of our physical dimensions.
3. Therefore, God has direct sight of what will take place in the future because of our physical dimensions.

Look at it this way. We exist in a 2D box. God exists within and outside of that box. If you're outside of the box, you can see into it. There are actual physics arguments that reinforce this but let's be honest, physicists are insane. We have no idea what they're talking about.
 
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Philosophy crap trolololol...

f00k pfilosopy n00b dis bee da Heiv'!
We don't care about God, we worship Pyrite and MasterHaosis.
F00K PFÿL00zupfýj now go worship Pyrite
This derailed because it's the Hive offtopic!

Now go and get a life. Predestination? We don't care because it imports custom resources from our brain since it will overload our mind-RAM and will make our thoughtmaps too large to effectively send over the Battlehive because the mental lag will be great and download times will be huge
 
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I ate the apple, case

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You have Adam and Eve (whom I believe are representative for more than two people but that's just my opinion seeing that later in Genesis it reads, "And the sons of Adam married the daughter's of Eve") and they're chilling in the garden.
Praytell, how are the "sons of Adam" the same as just Adam? And likewise, how are the "daughters of Eve" the same as just Eve? You're contradicting yourself instantly by saying SONS of Adam, and DAUGHTERS of Eve. Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but right there God prefers incest over creating more humans the same way he made Adam and Eve.

So God commanded something along these lines (I'm paraphrasing), "Do not eat the forbidden fruit. It contains the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat it you will die".

Let's look at the parameters for the "knowledge of good and evil". In the pre-fall of man era there was no "good" or "evil". There simply was existence between mankind and God.
Yes, which is why it's not right to punish us. Adam and Even didn't know it was wrong to disobey God. They didn't even know what wrong or right is. They had no knowledge of death or anything like that either. They were ignorant and blissful. It's like saying to a child "Don't eat the dirt, you'll get sick." The child will do it anyway.

Based on the conclusion I came to in the second paragraph, we'd have to understand the thought process of man with no sin nature. Because we all are born sinful, we cannot fathom what that world would be like because it is not how our brains operate.
We do understand their thought process.

Lastly, predestination was mentioned. Predestination is a very simplistic argument that has a few holes. Let me outline predestination.
1. God can see the past, present, and future
That is irrelevant.
2. We exist in the past and present, but do not know the future
Irrelevant.
3. Therefore God predestines our existence in the the future
..Waaat? How did.. Where.. What the....

It's easy to think this way
It's RIDICULOUS to think that way. I'll get back to this further down.

but sometimes God can be confusing (we are only humans after all).
So how do you know everything else about God if he's so confusing? Seriously, think about it. If God is so confusing and mysterious then how do we even have a single clue of how God is or what he is like? We claim to know so many things, but as soon as someone say something about God that we don't like, then we suddenly cannot understand God.

Look at it this way instead:
1. We exist within a universe that has physical parameters such as space and time.
Irrelevant.


2. God is omnipresent, which means He exists within and outside of our physical dimensions.
Irrelevant, and also incorrect. The argument for that is long, but shortly explained; nature encompasses everything. If he exists outside nature, then he is by definition nonexistent.

3. Therefore, God has direct sight of what will take place in the future because of our physical dimensions.
Again, how do you end up with these conclusions, and how are these even relevant. We're talking about PREDESTINATION. The act of choosing on beforehand through divine will.

Look at it this way. We exist in a 2D box. God exists within and outside of that box. If you're outside of the box, you can see into it. There are actual physics arguments that reinforce this but let's be honest, physicists are insane. We have no idea what they're talking about.
No physics arguments reinforce that, in fact they contradict you, as explained above. Also, no, physicists aren't insane.

Now, unto predestination.
EPHESIANS 1:4-5:
"He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to be His own adopted children by Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will."
 
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So tell me, who exactly wrote this neat book called the Bible?

So many people follow random beliefs anyone can make up every day. I could make up an holy spaghetti god, and somewhere along the lines of the future my believers will worship me as their messiah and uphold wars in the name of the spaghetti god.

Every religion is based on pillars of bullshit, which some people don't see only because they force their eyes shut.
I haven't seen any intelligent argument with religious people yet, since it all comes down to "No, you can't understand without believing". THANKS FUCKING CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. We can't understand bullshit because we do not believe in bullshit. That's logic for you, but I guess religions surpass that.

I read this book in which humans shot laser beams out of their fingers. Neither of us have seen anything like that, or any proof it ever existed. But hey, it's written in a book. Guess it's the truth, right? I'll start practicing and see if I can get it done. (and yes this was a simple example, I don't remember reading any book where people shot laser beams from their hands)
 
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So tell me, who exactly wrote this neat book called the Bible?

So many people follow random beliefs anyone can make up every day. I could make up an holy spaghetti god, and somewhere along the lines of the future my believers will worship me as their messiah and uphold wars in the name of the spaghetti god.

Every religion is based on pillars of bullshit, which some people don't see only because they force their eyes shut.
I haven't seen any intelligent argument with religious people yet, since it all comes down to "No, you can't understand without believing". THANKS FUCKING CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. We can't understand bullshit because we do not believe in bullshit. That's logic for you, but I guess religions surpass that.

I read this book in which humans shot laser beams out of their fingers. Neither of us have seen anything like that, or any proof it ever existed. But hey, it's written in a book. Guess it's the truth, right? I'll start practicing and see if I can get it done. (and yes this was a simple example, I don't remember reading any book where people shot laser beams from their hands)
Why does it bother you so much?
 
Alright, I'll do my best to explain my understanding of this. So God creates Adam, a physical man, and then creates Eve from Adam's rib. Now in the garden of eden, with perfect physical flesh and no sin, Adam and Eve could have lived forever turning the whole earth into a paradise. But God needed to set some boundaries to make sure that he was being respected as the almighty creator. Because he gave Humans and Angels free will, he told humans "don't eat from the tree that's in the center of the garden or else you will die." The knowledge of good and evil in that fruit was made up, it was an arbitrary rule set by God. Then, Satan using his free will decided he wanted to be worshiped and deceived Eve who was young. Eve ate the fruit because she was tricked, and then went over to Adam to get him to eat the fruit. Now Adam was not deceived, but ate the fruit anyway because he loved Eve. Now afterwards they felt guilty and hid in the bushes. God then confronted them about eating the fruit and Eve blamed Satan while Adam blamed Eve then God. This made God pretty angry, an apology would have been much better and probably diffused the whole situation. But God said that if they ate the fruit they would die, and so they did a long time later. Now the oldest recorded man in the bible is Methuselah who lived before the flood, to about 969 years. Noah had his kids really late, and right after that the human lifespan dropped drastically to around where it is today.
Moral of the story? Apologize to God, don't blame him.
 
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This thread here is quite entertaining and shows some real creativity and imagination:
I've been researching various facts about the bible...
adam and eve didn't eat the fruit... eve was decieved/charmed by satan's handsomeness, so she had intercourse with him (eating the apple means intercourse)
I'm thinking this is someone's fantasy?

I think HFR brings up a good point. When it comes to religion it is about respecting others beliefs even if you yourself don't believe.

I would like to make one point here real quick if I could and address

@GhostWolf: Your first question was who wrote the bible? It really doesn't matter who wrote it. You know it's understandable if your irritated my the bible. It seems to contain such fantasy. I myself don't believe in the supernatural. I also find if too hard to believe in some of the stories in the bible like "Jesus raised the dead". But if another person believes I think that's great.

Why? Well I don't know much about the bible, but there is a few things I know for sure. One is as a user mentioned earlier in this post that the bible is full of metaphors. I believe the bible describes these metaphors as "parables".

So when I see something in the bible that says you can move mountains if you believe strong enough, of course its not saying you can be a bulldozer if you believe. My interpretation is > If you believe you can do anything you want (within reason of course).

Or when it says "Jesus raised the dead" I believe Jesus was a very spiritual person that healed someone that was spiritually dead. I've been there myself.

Consider this fact: Religion helps many people today. It has helped me in the past. The book of Proverbs contains great advice that you can use today. I love this book although I haven't picked up a bible in quite some time.

You know, the majority of us (sometimes hard to believe i Know) are intelligent people, It does tend to irritate me if I (haven't been in a while) go to church and someone asks me to believe in the supernatural. I'm sorry I just can't. It not that I don't want to I CAN'T go there sorry!

You know there is self help books and the like that teach you if you believe in yourself you can do almost anything you set your mind to. But in my life experiences this method is nowhere near as powerful as the potential spiritual uplifting as religion can be. I say can be because many people go to church and whatever and never experience this spirituality.

Well I hope that may have shed some light on the subject from a more conventional point of view. I could go on and on about how spiritual it's made me feel in the past. It was the highlight of my life.

You know if I get to feeling "alone in the dark" I'll get around to opening up a good book to the book of proverbs and reading a few chapters...

and the light begins to shine again ;)
 
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We'd be in heaven right... now. Well, it was our all's destiny to land on this plane that is before the afterlife (the... beforelife?), and it's more than just a test. It's a long series of tests that come everyday - will we embrace what God gave us and accept Him as our Creator OR will we disbelieve in it and just live the life and take what fate *cough*no, fate doesn't exist*cough* might bring. Imagine if God DID actually exist - And you stood in front of him on the Judgement day. You denied him all your life, and guess where you're going to - hell or heaven? Believe me, in front of him, All the goodness without the right belief is nothing.

But hey, that's my own viewpoint. If you don't believe in eternal damnation and satisfaction, you just don't. Also, living in a city where the Majority are Muslims makes it easier to believe in God. Living in America, where, well, the majority are either Protestant and/or Atheist makes it harder to worship God.

Also, according to Islam, it was not the humans that did all those miracles (Jesus, Moses etc.) but it was God who did them and showed the world the miracles through them. And a lot of you Atheists have been asking why God didn't convert us all to the best religion if he's Almighty etc. - That's the same reason why he "kicked" Adam and Eve out of heaven - Your own will. You must have the eyes to spot evil from good, and to go towards good. Often, the evil stuff may appear as good, but with a righteous heart you shall see when the wolf's dressed up as a lamb.
 
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I've never asked why God didn't convert all of us. One question I've had though is why he expects us to believe in the right God when he has never shown himself. We could believe in billions of gods, and still be faaaar away. "No man hath seen the Father"~Jesus

Also, if God does exist, and tells me I'll go to hell, I'll personally say "No you" to him right in his face, because he has failed as a father and will never receive my love.
 
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I've never asked why God didn't convert all of us. One question I've had is why he expects us to believe in the right God when he has never shown himself. We could believe in billions of gods, and still be faaaar away. "No man hath seen the Father"~Jesus

Belief is the keyword here. You believe in Him because He has given you enough proof that He exists. You believe that all that has been created around you is forged by nature, but people who believe in God believe that God has forged us all, and all that has been explained as a simple term - nature. Doubt comes into us all when when we speak about God at least once in our live-times, and all of humanity has the right to believe and not-to-believe in God - Religion is pure, actually. It's main point is peace, just the fact that people, once they finished an act of evil, hide behind Religion and call it "Jihad" and whatever. That is hypocrisy, and that's the biggest sin one can commit (kind of ironic, eh?).

Why does he expects us to believe in the right God when he has never shown himself?

There are multiple answers to this. One would be because Monotheism prevailed over Polytheism over the years. Another would be that all Monotheistic religions have a lot of things in common. I am Muslim, so i believe that Judaism and Christianity started off as the right religion but then went downhill by being manipulated by the people of their times. Another proof to why Monotheism is the right answer is the constant amount of people converting to it - Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Another one would be the scientific facts that have been revealed in the early 7th century in the holy Qur'an (Even in the Bible, too) that have been proven right almost a Millennium and a half years later. The leap of technological, mathematical, medical (and so forth) research in the Middle East is yet another proof to why Islam indeed wants people to hold the Holy book in one hand, and a science book in another. Religion and development of Humanity go hand in hand, but it seems that some people have forgotten this...

In short - All Monotheistic religions believe in one God. That would make 3 Gods, right? No. We believe that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all believe in the same God (which would explain why they seem similar).
 
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Belief is the keyword here. You believe in Him because He has given you enough proof that He exists.
But that's the problem. He hasn't, and who is Him? How do we know it's a he and not a she? How do we know God has a gender? How do we know he has a shape at all? If he has a shape, what is that shape? He is invisible. No man has ever seen him, yet we claim to know who and what he is.

You believe that all that has been created around you is forged by nature
Not exactly that way. Everything is nature, and it has all come together over a great deal of time, evolution being the most recent part in this (and it started a loooong time ago).

but people who believe in God believe that God has forged us all
Again, how do they know, or to put it another way, how did they arrive with that particular belief? And why do people today believe this is the right belief? How could the people who started with this belief be so sure that they were right?

and all that has been explained as a simple term - nature.
What?

all of humanity has the right to believe and not-to-believe in God
Yes.

Religion is pure, actually.
What do you mean? Clarify please.

It's main point is peace
Did you mean "Its"? If so I'd have to disagree. The main point is to believe in something.

just the fact that people, once they finished an act of evil, hide behind Religion and call it "Jihad" and whatever. That is hypocrisy, and that's the biggest sin one can commit (kind of ironic, eh?).
No need to call it jihad. Christians can commit mass murders and then go to heaven because Jesus apparently died for their sins. They can sin just as much as they want, without problems, while the nicest and most helpful guy on Earth will go to hell, as long as he's anything but Christian.

There are multiple answers to this. One would be because Monotheism prevailed over Polytheism over the years.
This doesn't explain why God expects people to immediately believe in him and nothing but him, without showing himself. Which is what my question was.

Another would be that all Monotheistic religions have a lot of things in common.
Just like above. Doesn't answer the question.

I am Muslim, so i believe that Judaism and Christianity started off as the right religion but then went downhill by being manipulated by the people of their times.
The chances of Judaism ever being right is very small, and consequentially the chance of Christianity being right is also small. As pointed further up, how did they know what he looked like, or where did they get these beliefs? God has not shown himself to anyone according to Jesus. If you had 1 billion people each with a different belief, there would still be an extremely small possibility of any of them even being remotely correct.

Another proof to why Monotheism is the right answer is the constant amount of people converting to it - Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
This doesn't prove anything. The reason people initially even started believing in God is because the beliefs were forced upon them. The only reason people even as far north as here stopped believing in Odin and Thor and the other Norse gods, and instead started believing in God, was not out of free will. It was forced upon them. "Convert or die" as it were. There were many bloody wars, but eventually the Christians won. On top of that, even doubting God or having beliefs that even slightly deviated from the "right belief" would result in your death.

Also, most people who convert to Islam are already monotheists, and there are also many of renounce their faith.


Another one would be the scientific facts that have been revealed in the early 7th century in the holy Qur'an (Even in the Bible, too) that have been proven right almost a Millennium and a half years later. The leap of technological, mathematical, medical (and so forth) research in the Middle East is yet another proof to why Islam indeed wants people to hold the Holy book in one hand, and a science book in another. Religion and development of Humanity go hand in hand, but it seems that some people have forgotten this...
Once again this doesn't prove anything, or even remotely answer the question.

In short - All Monotheistic religions believe in one God. That would make 3 Gods, right? No. We believe that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all believe in the same God (which would explain why they seem similar).
They believe in the same God with, of course, some important changes. This is because they all spring from the same faith. The problem is the original faith. How do we know they were right? And if we can't know, why do we still claim to know so much? Why are people so sure they have the right faith, when statistically they probably don't? It's just as probable that pastafarians are right, and that everyone else are wrong.

The entire point is that we cannot know anything at all about God, even if it (being gender neutral here) exists. It's also ridiculous of God to then believe that we will know what to believe, and that we will not believe something entirely different (which we originally did, and most likely still do). It is quite possible that the vikings were right about Odin and Thor, and right now they are pissed at us for being completely wrong, and that we are soooooo sure that we're right. For all we know, God could be a sheep who made the sheep in his image, and that we humans were made later to take care of these sheep. Perhaps when we die, we'll only go to heaven if we were good to the sheep.
 
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There's at least two sides to every coin.

How do we know it's a he and not a she? How do we know God has a gender?
The Bible refers to people in general as he, him, man. Why? Man was the dominate gender back then and for many years.

He is invisible. No man has ever seen him, yet we claim to know who and what he is
Many believe they've spoken to god. I myself thought I did and one time. In reflection, did I really?...Consider this:

That first step toward salvation. Which is. Asking God to forgive you of your sins. This alone can be so powerful. The power of the subconscious. The hard part is tapping into that power. You can get there through a Strong belief of a God. I say a strong belief. Its all or nothing. You must believe with all your heart and soul. This is very important. If you think you can't. Your thinking wrong.

"A very brilliant man once said "Whether you think you can or you can't, either way your right". -Henry Ford

If you believe strongly enough that a God has forgiven you for every single sin you have committed in your life! Then it is true period.

The weight that can be lifted from such an experience can be so amazing!
A person really has no idea how these sins we carry in our subconscious effect us. It brings us down, some more than others, but we all can benefit.

Most will shrug that and say I'm fine. And chances are you are. The thing is you have so much more potential.

Did I mention I experienced this first hand. Many will mock or laugh at that too. I did myself. Consider how many great people in history were laughed at because people didn't believe them.

It's my belief that this is the power the mind has over the body. More accurately (in my opinion) the power of the subconscious. (I'm certainly not alone on this either)

I mentioned "a God" a few times. Because I believe that any "God" or religion based on the belief and releasing you of your "sins" has the potential to take you there. To tap into this power.

Religion is the key. But it's not an easy door to open.

But as far as Adam and eve eating the apple.

I honestly don't believe anything would have happened.

The best thing to do is study, read, research and draw your own conclusions.
 
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Kyrbi0

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(Now, I will point out that I come at this as a Bible (and thus Genesis) believer.)
The debate over the reality vs. the symbolism of the Genesis account, to me, in no way negates the doctrinal and spiritual impact or message. i.e. Was it really a literal "fruit", from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Was it even a literal "tree"? => Not necessarily, not essential. Hebrew was incredibly and richly symbolic.

~IMHO~
Basically it boils down to the first two posters' responses, loosely:
-derp- said:
Uh... we wouldn't be here.

Adam & Eve would live in total innocence and harmony with their surroundings and be immortal.
The_Reborn_Devil said:
Not only that, but Adam and Eve would be ignorant people doing whatever god commands them to do. Eve ate the apple for the Tree of Knowledge after all.

Now "why" is a more interesting question.
God gave them (Adam and Eve) two commandments upon placing them in the Garden of Eden: "multiply and replenish the earth", and, roughly, "do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil".
An important thing to note is the belief that God has given to each man a divine gift, an endowment known as "agency" (ultimately 'moral agency'). "God will force no man to heaven", as they say, and I would add "or to hell". God puts us here, gives us the opportunity to choose good or evil, and lets us decide. I believe this very strongly.

As has been stated, they were placed in the Garden in a state of innocence. Compare this to a child (as has been aforementioned). Does a child, a very young child, really know good from evil? I submit, no. They do dumb stuff, but it's not malevolence, but innocence. And while they are happy, they're really not living up to their full potential (case in point: mentally-retarded individuals. Innocent, child-like demeanor, but not progressing in life as an adult, nor can they). In a similar vein, truly-young children do not understand 'reproduction', so begetting children are out of the question.

So, in order to actually make of this 'earth-life' (or 'phase of mortality' or '2nd estate') what it was made to be (in a sense, a sort of 'school'), and in order to allow the rest of us to come down (again, by choice), Adam and Eve had to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (FotToKoGaE, for... short? :p) by choice. Given the opportunity, yet not forced.

Again, due to God's respect for His own gift (agency), He would not, could not, does not, create men or women in a fallen state. We come here ('chose to', rather), decide who to serve ("choice"), and ultimately our decisions determine our destiny (obviously "choice"). Adam and Eve had to be in the right situation to choose "correctly" by eating the fruit, thus introducing sin into the world (bad, yes), but thereby also introducing mankind, and the need for a Savior, into the world (part of the plan).

Finally, I am of the strong opinion that we are each punished only for the sins we commit. I am not guilty of a crime I didn't perpetrate. "Man is punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression". Adam's trangression didn't suddenly make us all evil or sinful as we come into this world; I do not believe in "Original Sin". However, the effects of the Fall (this fallen world of temptation, for example) we do inherit, as it were.

Generally I hate it when people pick apart my argument piece-by-piece, but I hope you'll excuse me in this instance; just a few comments.

But that's the problem. He hasn't, and who is Him? How do we know it's a he and not a she? How do we know God has a gender? How do we know he has a shape at all? If he has a shape, what is that shape? He is invisible. No man has ever seen him, yet we claim to know who and what he is.
So, are you one of those who believes in any sort of universal truth whatsoever, and our ability as humans to discern it? If not, then yeah, any kinda discussion like this won't go far, I reckon. Just curious.

Reborn_Devil said:
No need to call it jihad. Christians can commit mass murders and then go to heaven because Jesus apparently died for their sins. They can sin just as much as they want, without problems, while the nicest and most helpful guy on Earth will go to hell, as long as he's anything but Christian.
Hopefully this is said jest. No one should be under any misconceptions that either Islam or Christianity condone what you have described (for reference, I am in the latter category, but I know better than to say that, for example, the Muslim terrorists on 9/11 were acting fully under the precepts of their religion (or conversely, that the Christian crusaders were doing the same for theirs). True Islam is, I assume, similar to Christianity in propounding positive ideals including non-genocide; correct me if I'm wrong.).

reborn_devil said:
God has not shown himself to anyone according to Jesus.
I am familiar with that verse. However, if I recall correctly, there's a bit of a translational error (which I'm sure we're all aware is possible); did not Moses see and talk to God? More than one occasion, I believe.


So, TL;DR, in answer to the question "What if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit?" My response would be "Adam and Eve would've remained in the Garden of Eden, not knowing Good from Evil, forever innocent and immortal, never progressing or "degressing". Nor would the rest of mankind been there, and the Plan would have been frustrated, to an extent.

~~~

Yeah, I realize by typing so much I'm leaving myself wide open for the sharks. C'est la vie. :p
 
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Reborn_devil: It is obvious that you have a strong opinion on religion and that you won't change it by any means. You want direct and logical answers to questions, which can't be delivered. You see, religious talk is meant to be delivered through religious thinking - i tried to give some reasonable logical answers on your questions, but it seems i have failed to give you any intelligence. Why do you bother discussing religion when whatever We (religious people) say you'll negate with another question. To me, that feeling that i get when praying just furthermore proves that my prayer has a point. If not, how did it convince me to believe in God anyways? Why do we feel guilt for every sin we do? Why do we feel sadness when asking God (who is all-forgiving) to forgive us but not when asking other people to forgive us? Why do we feel so... helpless in comparison to God? I, along with other people apparently, will defend Religion over anything and everything.

Once, a friend asked me "What if this belief of yours turned out wrong? How would you feel in the afterlife?" I simply answered with "What if my belief turned out to be true? How would you feel in the afterlife knowing what'll wait for you?". Indeed, atheist people are at a greater loss than we are in this case.

Another function of one religious man is to call people into his religion, which i am doing as much as i can. It is apparent, that you can't convert people over the internet and that you can't come to an conclusion over the internet when talking about a theme that you both hold dear one strong opinion on. Nevertheless, getting back on topic.

'What if' questions are truly questions that i dislike, because you can't change the past, which would affect the future by a great deal. It is rather pointless, because it won't change anything in the present as well. It was meant to happen, Satan was meant to deceive people, We were meant to be here, on earth. It is interesting to note, though, that in the Bible, God says "Do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Yet in the Holy Qur'an the literal translation from Arabic is "Do not go near that tree (He didn't explain what the tree was, what it's powers were. He even said to not go near the tree, because directly telling them not to eat will get them near the tree out of curiosity, and once they smell the "beauty" that the fruit is, they can't come back.)." However, man disobeyed. You might ask why God didn't prevent this. It's because he gave man a free will - to do whatever he wanted to. He did warn us, humanity, though, what would happen if we disobeyed and did otherwise. Stubborn as We, humans, are, 'tis no wonder why it took a couple of Millenniums to retrieve the belief in one God and 124 000 men (the messengers (according to Islam. Jesus and Moses are one of them as well) to lead and call people into the real religion - into monotheism. But now, if something could've happened otherwise, i have to say "If they didn't eat the fruit, they'd do something bad one of the next days. Our fate was, since God gave us a free will, to land here anyways."
 
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You know I could never understand someone like this last poster Kyrbi0. He seems to be some kinda preacher popping in posting some 1200+ word wall of...ah..?

I myself am interested in people's religious beliefs but seems to me if I was a righteous man walking with "God" my work here on earth would be teaching others about my religion. Teaching them how they could find happiness as I have found.

To be a good teacher you have to first get them interested in listening. Or reading what you have to say. If asked a question a good teacher answers the question. He doesn't beat around the burning bush.

I'm guessing it's for they're own benefit. It probably makes them feel like they're doing something good. Well...

You know some of that "preaching seemed to be directed at you The_Reborn_Devil (a very colorful username) if you don't mind me saying.

I think he likes you :)

And if these "preachers" know ahead of time as this guys states
Yeah, I realize by typing so much I'm leaving myself wide open for the sharks. C'est la vie. :p

Then why do it? You hoping to save someone?

In my opinion people like this spend so much of they're time teaching that they forget whats important...Following.

Save yourself brother.

Ultimately you are the only one you can save.

So many don't consider this especially a preacher.

They're to busy looking at you and I.

:(
 
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I say it again - it is nice to see so much people working on helping their own religions, but the bad thing is that it won't convert anyone to their religion - people are too stubborn to do so. Only in real life, face to face, you can convince one to join. The internet is not the way. I'd like to ask you all sincerely to stop talking about religion as in a whole and start focusing on the main theme here.
 

Kyrbi0

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No offense, Jaret, but that's a little pessimistic. Conversion is a matter of heart as well as of mind; one does the research and makes ones' decision. This can and does happen online (although granted, I for one believe it's more meaningful and true when done in person. But who am I to say where and when people will be touched?).

Moreover, you do realize that this entire thread is asking a religious question about a tenant of Christianity (a religion) and the hypothetical effects of it not happening (physically, realmatically, religiously).
 
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No offense, Jaret, but that's a little pessimistic. Conversion is a matter of heart as well as of mind; one does the research and makes ones' decision. This can and does happen online (although granted, I for one believe it's more meaningful and true when done in person. But who am I to say where and when people will be touched?).

Moreover, you do realize that this entire thread is asking a religious question about a tenant of Christianity (a religion) and the hypothetical effects of it not happening (physically, realmatically, religiously).

Well, what i am trying to say is that "in person" you can persuade people easier. When reading (For instance) you can't see if the person's calm or screaming a certain sentence, you can only imagine by the structure of the sentence. In real life, you can even see how they are saying it. The gestures and motion, everything enhance what a certain person is talking about. Also, a lot of times people act on the internet as someone they are not; this is something that does occur most of the times.

Though, one, of course, must be optimistic at all times. But, from the past, i know for certain that the internet really is not a good way to spread goodness. It's easier to be dumb and a fool than to be a genius over the internet, hell, people respect funny and dumb people (over the internet) more than the ones trying to help. One says something interesting and/or just gives out a clever solution (to given problem) and another one just flatout screams "Nerd!" or something similar. We live in a time and age in which intelligence is not respected; just compare, for instance, the musicians that lived 200 years ago and those today - real difference in classiness, eh?

Also, it's easy to say that Aliens made everything...
 
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The debate in this thread has proved something: In the end, regardless of your prejudice, you'll end up using religion, in some context or another, to justify your opinion.
What's funny, though, is that almost 90% of every religious debate is made up of straw man arguments.

And, please, don't get started on aliens... I'd have to get the awesomeness of us being controlled by reptillian extraterrestrials from the constellation draco out of my head all over again. David Icke - Y U NO WRITE SCIFI THRILLERS AS BOOKS INSTEAD OF THEORIES?
 
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And, please, don't get started on aliens... I'd have to get the awesomeness of us being controlled by reptillian extraterrestrials from the constellation draco out of my head all over again. David Icke - Y U NO WRITE SCIFI THRILLERS AS BOOKS INSTEAD OF THEORIES?

Yeah I know I also don't read and have never read anything of Icke, Alex Jones or any of the guys that seem to be far from even second hand information, as ln rather get it from the source. But what about Castello, what about Phil Schneider who got killed and the stuff that he was showing taken away from his home. Also what about the threats that people receive by some agents. The 'died in mysterious circumstances' going on is not a myth dude, whose-ever the UFOs are.
 
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The debate in this thread has proved something: In the end, regardless of your prejudice, you'll end up using religion, in some context or another, to justify your opinion.

Your opinion... Hopefully everyone has an opinion. It's a good thing.

It's my opinion that religion can be a great guide in a person's life. But it can also be a crutch. Knowledge gained can be used for good or bad.

It's really up to the individual.

...You know I love to see people joking, even in such a serious topic.
It's those people that stand out in a crowd to me.

These people seem to have so much potential for spreading happiness.

And that should be what it's all about. :)
 
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As history has shown, religion is the bane of humanity.

It is a tool to explain something complicated to simple-minded people (for example how the world was created and such).
This is very bad, because humans should learn to understand by themselves, and not be manipulated by a invention of someone.

Another thing is, that religion was abused to control people who believed in it to do horrible things for the people they think are "holy". A few examples: Jihad (a war solely based on religion), Crusades (a army of raiders who want to take over a other country because it is said to be the "holy land", more like abuse of peoples life), Spanish Inquistion (yeah right, horrendous torture and abuse of human life is very much god's word).

This are all horrible things which happened through god, but people still believe in that abomination that was used to destroy other peoples life just to improve the money pocket and life of the puppetmasters behind that.....
 

Kyrbi0

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Everyone points to these great catastrophes (Crusades, jihad) and uses this to point out how "Religion is so evil". I submit there are just as many horrible things done in the name of science (perhaps if not in magnitude, then in severity). Unfortunately, the only example I can think of are the Nazi war-crimes and scientific "master-race" experiments and such, and I hate to perform the "Hitler-maneuver" (i.e. comparing someone/thing to Hitler or the Nazi's to make a point). So take that with a grain of salt.

However, my point stands. Both disciplines have led to the loss of human life and dignity (as well as a host of other reasons). Heck, mankind can take anything and make it a tool of destruction! That's no reason not to use it. Just carefully. :p
 
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Kyrbi0, I think you can't read, I never wrote that religion evil is, I said it brings only evil over humanity.

And you can't compare that, science is just a tool of humanity which can be used badly or for the good, religion is used to justify and even make the deeds seem "holy" and "for the good of humanity", science was just misused but was never the basis to justify evil deeds.

And I think you read a bit too many comics, there was no genome experiment where nazis tried to create the uber human, that was mostly in those movies who are always shown, really, such a childish comparison is not even worth the letters I am writing to argument against this.
 

Kyrbi0

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I never wrote that religion evil is, I said it brings only evil over humanity.
Well, you wrote
redscores said:
religion is the bane of humanity
I don't know about you, and maybe it's just me, but "bane of humanity" sounds pretty evil. Again, just My Opinion. : )

However, you are correct. You didn't say precisely "religion is evil". In that case, my comment was directed more towards people who do say that, so my bad.

redscores said:
And you can't compare that, science is just a tool of humanity which can be used badly or for the good, religion is used to justify and even make the deeds seem "holy" and "for the good of humanity", science was just misused but was never the basis to justify evil deeds.
I would submit that one could say the same about either. In My Opinion, religion/science are just tools; people use them to justify their acts, whether good or evil.

redscores said:
And I think you read a bit too many comics, there was no genome experiment where nazis tried to create the uber human, that was mostly in those movies who are always shown, really, such a childish comparison is not even worth the letters I am writing to argument against this.
Never really read much comics, but yes, I do love me my scifi-fantasy books. :p

That being the case, yes, I don't entirely know that to be 100% truth. So, I apologize. The point I intended to make was not about Nazi's and Hitler, though.

~~~

Fladdermasken, I agree. Your post adds clarity and understanding, and is a shining example of perspicacity.
Seriously, though, I like that. Where'd you get that? :p
 
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