What happens after death?

[Teh_Ephy]

because none of you have provided any evidence of his existence

I also have seen definitive proof of a god anyways. A friend and I carpool to campus and back. We're getting into his Jeep, and stop dead in our tracks. A granola bar wrapper was stuck on the side of the front passenger-side chair. It was like a seventy degree angle. I challenge you to look me straight in the eyes and tell me some sort of divine being was not totally jerking our chains.

Also, you're completely mistaken about the lack of evidence of the Judeo-Christian God. There are in fact overwhelming amounts of testimony for this God, you are just unsatisfied with its quailty.

 

[Elenai]

Not to be rude, but that is exactly where you pulled out that last statement. Just because people who write atheist literature are typically scientists coming from rich families doesn't mean all atheists tend to be from that same background. That's like saying all Christians tend to come from Nazareth.

NOT RICH! 'well off'.

 

[Gausslander]

NOT RICH! 'well off'.

Great save there. 'Well Off' could never be mistaken for wealthy or rich.

Also, you're completely mistaken about the lack of evidence of the Judeo-Christian God. There are in fact overwhelming amounts of testimony for this God, you are just unsatisfied with its quailty.

Yes, you have (mostly second-hand) testimonies from two-thousand years ago originally written in a language you do not understand. Most of the new testament was written years after Christ's death by people who never knew him; in Latin Vulgate, a language he did not speak.

 

[icecream_pirate]

Yes, you have (mostly second-hand) testimonies from two-thousand years ago originally written in a language you do not understand. Most of the new testament was written years after Christ's death by people who never knew him; in Latin Vulgate, a language he did not speak.

And how do you know that? Has anyone that live today ever been there? And how is it that every quote in every single bible are the same? Constantine and his group of priests basically printed out the bible that is know today, and he lived in around 300 A.D. and Christianity was around for quite some time before he was even born. So scripture was probably written not too long after Christ's death. At most i'll give it about 100-200 years. Which isn't that long if you compare it with many other literature that we get information of the ancients from.




theres proofs for both God and lack of God. The only way to check is if u die and see whether or not u end up in heaven or hell or nowhere. And God isn't going to come down out of nowhere and say," sup guys, im here and im real, so believe in me. Bye" and up he goes. It's either going to happen these ways: nothing happens and humanity lives until they blow themselves up, or Revelations happens and Jesus comes from the sky and gives everyone who didn't believe in him a beat down. No point in arguing about it.

 

[Gausslander]

And God isn't going to come down out of nowhere and say," sup guys, im here and im real, so believe in me. Bye" and up he goes.

You represent the complete idiocy of the religious point of view (not calling all religious people idiots, but this is plain retarded). First of all, if he is an omniscient god that requires you to find the true religion or he will "send you to suffer in eternal damnation", then I don't want to believe in him [I.E., if I was born in India rather then Utah, then I am supposed to go and find Mormonism (if it is the true religion, which it isn't, of course) across the world? Even if that might be possible now; how on earth was anyone back in the ancient times supposed to travel the world, let alone even hear about the true religion, then because of his lack of knowing he is thus sent to go suffer for eternity?]. And if he was truly a just and good god, he would do something of the sort that you mockingly said above. Why not? Why see believers die due to others false beliefs? Why would he let me jibe nonreligious text and spew it in conversation when I'm with family and friends? Why wouldn't he tell me to stop, zap me with lightning, kill me for example?

 

[icecream_pirate]

well if u have actually read the bible, you would know that people screwed up to the point where God just had it which it clearly explains. And in case you haven't noticed, that's why missionaries exist and have existed as far as christianity and even judaism existed. And it makes you a real faithful person to have to see everything to believe. That's like saying that you don't love someone because you realize that they're poor then they turn out to be rich and you say that you love them just for their money. You represent the nearsightness and ignorance of the atheist point of view. (not saying all athiests are ignorant.)

 

[Gausslander]

well if u have actually read the bible, you would know that people screwed up to the point where God just had it which it clearly explains. And in case you haven't noticed, that's why missionaries exist and have existed as far as christianity and even judaism existed. And it makes you a real faithful person to have to see everything to believe. That's like saying that you don't love someone because you realize that they're poor then they turn out to be rich and you say that you love them just for their money. You represent the nearsightness and ignorance of the atheist point of view. (not saying all athiests are ignorant.)

Right, do you really want me to bring in literal translations of the bible now; or would you rather be spared the humility of the words you have just printed?

And have you ever thought of religions as a business?

What do businesses do?: They sell a product. The kind of product doesn't matter, but they're trying to persuade others to buy theirs and no one else's. Whether that's through visuals, humor, or fear.

What is the one thing that all religions and businesses ask for?: Money.

What do missionaries and salesmen do?: Persuade others to either (A. Join their religion or (B. buy their product. Whether that product is invisible and purely a case of morality, it doesn't matter. Because in the end of day it's just business, the missionary is trying to increase the number of believers; just like the salesmen is trying to increase the number of customers for his boss. And that's the truth.

 

[icecream_pirate]

look dude, i dont really care like i said 2 posts before, "no point in arguing about it" I'm not really taking sides and no1 got married over the internet, you can't make me an atheist, and i can't make u a christian. The only point in arguing is creating more tension. And if u say, "you're giving up cuz i owned u," or something like that, it just shows what a troll u are and how you are just a little angel.

 

[Gausslander]

look dude, i dont really care like i said 2 posts before, "no point in arguing about it" I'm not really taking sides and no1 got married over the internet, you can't make me an atheist, and i can't make u a christian. The only point in arguing is creating more tension. And if u say, "you're giving up cuz i owned u," or something like that, it just shows what a troll u are and how you are just a little angel.

Firstly, I'm not an angel. And secondly, you're free to leave whenever you feel like it. I don't care.

 

[PurplePoot]

look dude, i dont really care like i said 2 posts before, "no point in arguing about it" I'm not really taking sides and no1 got married over the internet, you can't make me an atheist, and i can't make u a christian. The only point in arguing is creating more tension. And if u say, "you're giving up cuz i owned u," or something like that, it just shows what a troll u are and how you are just a little angel.

If you don't want to face those with opposing views, then don't attack them, simple as that. Also, beyond that, what you just said is just asking for him to say exactly that...

 

[Aschy]

What is the one thing that all religions and businesses ask for?: Money.

Your religion shouldn't pressure you into giving them money, but donating money is always nice to do.

You represent the complete idiocy of the religious point of view (not calling all religious people idiots, but this is plain retarded). First of all, if he is an omniscient god that requires you to find the true religion or he will "send you to suffer in eternal damnation", then I don't want to believe in him

This is what is pretty much up in the air if God is real. In the Bible it leads you quite away from this thinking though, from just seeing how God gave his son Jesus to spare the earth. I'm pretty sure its not about what religion your in they were all created by man for man to tend to his every whim, with help from things like the Bible. But who knows maybe it will be like on South Park when you see the sign to heaven's population is only 1000.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Why would he let me jibe nonreligious text and spew it in conversation when I'm with family and friends? Why wouldn't he tell me to stop, zap me with lightning, kill me for example?

Because then he'd have to do it to everyone else.

Yes, you have (mostly second-hand) testimonies from two-thousand years ago originally written in a language you do not understand. Most of the new testament was written years after Christ's death by people who never knew him; in Latin Vulgate, a language he did not speak.

So you're disproving Jesus...? Aside from the fact that I'm talking about contemporary miracles, which are of admittedly debatable validity and relevance, the Old Testament: Genesis, the commandments, etc. has been almost completely unquestioned as fact by its believers for over two thousand years. There are also completely verifiable events that happened in the Old and New Testaments.

Right, do you really want me to bring in literal translations of the bible now; or would you rather be spared the humility of the words you have just printed?

And have you ever thought of religions as a business?

[HIGHLIGHT]Stop right fucking there[/code]. You are confusing religions with the churches that claim to represent them.

What do businesses do?: They sell a product. The kind of product doesn't matter, but they're trying to persuade others to buy theirs and no one else's. Whether that's through visuals, humor, or fear.

What is the one thing that all religions and businesses ask for?: Money.

I would argue that computers matter a whole hell of a lot, and go as far as saying that they run most of the world. I say that because, for the most part, a whole hell of a lot of the world is run through computers. There are also such things as non-profits, which exist for the sole purpose of helping people.

What do missionaries and salesmen do?: Persuade others to either (A. Join their religion or (B. buy their product. Whether that product is invisible and purely a case of morality, it doesn't matter. Because in the end of day it's just business, the missionary is trying to increase the number of believers; just like the salesmen is trying to increase the number of customers for his boss. And that's the truth.

What an amazing cynic you are. As irritating as some missionaries (generally Latter-Day Saints) can be, a great many moderate missionaries completely believe, and rightly so, that they are doing good in the world, that they are making peoples' lives better.

 

[Hakeem]

The conclusion is obvious. I don't have to disprove god, because none of you have provided any evidence of his existence. It's obvious that we cannot search every fractional inch of the universe, looking for a supreme deity, to produce a conclusion that he does not exist. But we can infer his nonexistence from a lack of action and evidence.

I'll ask you what I asked the other guy who presumed omniscient conclusion:
Is there a heart shaped rock on Pluto?

Conclusion != hypothesis.

Yes, you have (mostly second-hand) testimonies from two-thousand years ago originally written in a language you do not understand. Most of the new testament was written years after Christ's death by people who never knew him; in Latin Vulgate, a language he did not speak.

Ad hominem. The greater the corruption that produces the Bible, only proves how powerful God is if the Bible is a truly divine work.

First of all, if he is an omniscient god that requires you to find the true religion or he will "send you to suffer in eternal damnation", then I don't want to believe in him

Then do not. Do you think that is the only interpretation of God?

And if he was truly a just and good god, he would do something of the sort that you mockingly said above. Why not? Why see believers die due to others false beliefs? Why would he let me jibe nonreligious text and spew it in conversation when I'm with family and friends? Why wouldn't he tell me to stop, zap me with lightning, kill me for example?

Maybe he isn't as good as you think he is.

What is the one thing that all religions and businesses ask for?: Money.

Mine does not.

 

[CMarket]

First of all, if he is an omniscient god that requires you to find the true religion or he will "send you to suffer in eternal damnation", then I don't want to believe in him [I.E., if I was born in India rather then Utah, then I am supposed to go and find Mormonism (if it is the true religion, which it isn't, of course) across the world? Even if that might be possible now; how on earth was anyone back in the ancient times supposed to travel the world, let alone even hear about the true religion, then because of his lack of knowing he is thus sent to go suffer for eternity?]

I completely agree with this. If God punishes those who don't believe in him and believe in other god/gods(like the bible says) than it just simply doesn't make any sense. I mean, as Scyth said, how the hell were people supposed to know that a thousand years ago?! Africans, Americans... had no clue back than what Christianity is, let alone if it's the right religion(not saying that Christianity is the right one, just making an example).

Would God punish those people just because of the IMPOSSIBILITY for them to find the right religion? No. Ergo the following:

- God does not exist

- God doesn't care if you worship him and he will not punish you for not doing so

- God doesn't make any sense.

 

[Elenai]

You represent the complete idiocy of the religious point of view (not calling all religious people idiots, but this is plain retarded).

To be honest, you aren't being much different yourself on the 'other end' of the ring.

First of all, if he is an omniscient god that requires you to find the true religion or he will "send you to suffer in eternal damnation", then I don't want to believe in him [I.E., if I was born in India rather then Utah, then I am supposed to go and find Mormonism (if it is the true religion, which it isn't, of course) across the world? Even if that might be possible now; how on earth was anyone back in the ancient times supposed to travel the world, let alone even hear about the true religion, then because of his lack of knowing he is thus sent to go suffer for eternity?]. And if he was truly a just and good god, he would do something of the sort that you mockingly said above. Why not? Why see believers die due to others false beliefs? Why would he let me jibe nonreligious text and spew it in conversation when I'm with family and friends? Why wouldn't he tell me to stop, zap me with lightning, kill me for example?

A) He is a loving god, a just god, and etc...He isn't going to 'punish you' for something you had no control of.

B) He doesn't send you to Hell, you choose to go there of your own free will.

C) He gives you the choice of choosing him or not, (the true religion) it doesn't take a pilgrimage to the other side of the galaxy to find the true religion buried in some secret alien tomb, and especially now with the internet, and missionaries on nearly every bit of foreign soil.

And have you ever thought of religions as a business?

If you want to look at it that way, everything is a business. Helping the Homeless is a business!

What do businesses do?: They sell a product. The kind of product doesn't matter, but they're trying to persuade others to buy theirs and no one else's. Whether that's through visuals, humor, or fear.

Or...halfway intelligent debate, and reasoning, based on a belief, with a focus on improving the life of a person, and offering them God's gift of eternal life, and freedom from sin, with an overall goal of 'helping make the world a better place while alive, and giving a nice comfy rest in death, then a rebirth into a perfectly beautiful existence in the future'

Christianity started off with reasoning, and debate. It is attempting to revive that standard today. (I am slowly learning the tools of the trade)

What is the one thing that all religions and businesses ask for?: Money.

So do hospitals. Shall I cancel your next appointment?

As for Churches, and money...Priests have to eat too.

What do missionaries and salesmen do?: Persuade others to either (A. Join their religion or (B. buy their product. Whether that product is invisible and purely a case of morality, it doesn't matter. Because in the end of day it's just business, the missionary is trying to increase the number of believers; just like the salesmen is trying to increase the number of customers for his boss. And that's the truth.

And the reasons are for benevolent ones, in most cases. Missionaries also tend to do alot of physical labour in the places they are preaching.

"I'll build your house, but I would like for you to listen to this Biblical passage afterwards if you would like."

Firstly, I'm not an angel. And secondly, you're free to leave whenever you feel like it. I don't care.

Neither are we, and you are likewise free to leave when you wish.

Right, do you really want me to bring in literal translations of the bible now; or would you rather be spared the humility of the words you have just printed?

And here was the big quote I wanted to tackle:

"And Aaron melted the ear rings down into a golden calf": (paraphrased), care to find the...symbolic, completely non-literal, interpretation/translation of that?

I completely agree with this. If God punishes those who don't believe in him and believe in other god/gods(like the bible says) than it just simply doesn't make any sense. I mean, as Scyth said, how the hell were people supposed to know that a thousand years ago?! Africans, Americans... had no clue back than what Christianity is, let alone if it's the right religion(not saying that Christianity is the right one, just making an example).

He is a loving, and just God, not a cruel one. He has a plan.

Would God punish those people just because of the IMPOSSIBILITY for them to find the right religion? No. Ergo the following:

He does not punish people for impossibilities. If he does punish anyone for anything, it is because they are being sinful and they know it, and refuse to repent.

Think "kharma".


- God does not exist = Just because he might not do things your way?

- God doesn't care if you worship him and he will not punish you for not doing so = He wants you to love him, like any other father, but like a father, will punish you for doing bad things. Just because he doesn't need your worship, doesn't mean he doesn't care.

- God doesn't make any sense. = Does a parent make sense to a 2 year old child?

 

[CMarket]

Actually what I meant to say was "ergo, one of the following" not all three. The bible says that god said that we must believe in him and nobody else. Meaning that even if you are ignorant you are sinful.

 

[Elenai]

Actually what I meant to say was "ergo, one of the following" not all three.

My mistake then.

The bible says that god said that we must believe in him and nobody else. Meaning that even if you are ignorant you are sinful.

Most people are sinful by their own standards as well xD Even if they are ignorant of God's.

 

[Tyranid]

Will God force me into heaven even if I want my soul to fade out of existence?

 

[Aschy]

Will God force me into heaven even if I want my soul to fade out of existence?

Depends what you believe in, some believe that if you are good you will go to heaven or if your bad you will go to hell, I'm not sure where in the bible it says this though. I don't believe in these theories I believe in a great resurrection.

- God doesn't make any sense

God makes about as much sense as rum & coke, which is the same for evolution, big bang theory, etc. Depends what kind of rum you prefer.

So do hospitals. Shall I cancel your next appointment?

As for Churches, and money...Priests have to eat too.

Well this is true but what do Priests do all day? Read the bible, I'm sure. I'm also pretty sure that churches with collection plates have some of the most wealthy Priests. I don't really know though I have never meet a priest I just know I see rich ma fuca's in the news though

I just think anything that is between god, you and the people should be non-profit. Just think what would Jesus do

Luke 19:45 "Then Jesus went into the temple, threw out everyone who was selling and buying in the temple, and overturned the moneychangers' tables and the chairs of those who sold doves."

This is for all you people that think every Bible is the same, I know they all say the same thing but not all bibles have the same amount of books, accounts, verses, etc, etc.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

- God doesn't care if you worship him and he will not punish you for not doing so

He doesn't punish you for not worshipping him, you just need to accept Christ before doomsday or w/e and then you get into heaven.

 

[Gilles]

Will God force me into heaven even if I want my soul to fade out of existence?

I don't believe there is such an option.

 

[CMarket]

He doesn't punish you for not worshipping him, you just need to accept Christ before doomsday or w/e and then you get into heaven.

So he wants us to accept Christ as our savior or else we will burn in flames forever? What's the point in giving us free will if he's going to pretty much force us to do what he wants us to do. Sure, the means are the different but the ends are the same. He did give us a choice: Worship Christ or burn forever. Not that much of a choice though...

 

[Elenai]

So he wants us to accept Christ as our savior or else we will burn in flames forever? What's the point in giving us free will if he's going to pretty much force us to do what he wants us to do. Sure, the means are the different but the ends are the same. He did give us a choice: Worship Christ or burn forever. Not that much of a choice though...

You have free will to choose to love him, or not. If you did not have free will, you would be a robot, and what kind of person wants to be loved by a robot?

You have a choice: Choose God, God's way (Christ) or choose yourself, and get out of God's presence, thus you go to the only place where you are not in his presence (aware of it), and that is Hell.

Hell is hell, because of the people who are there, not because God made it that way. Why would you want to be in Heaven, if you do not want to be with God? Heaven would be 'Hell' for the un-believer. God won't force you to love him, but he won't allow you in his house if you don't.

 

[CMarket]

Hell is hell, because of the people who are there, not because God made it that way.

Once again you don't know. God might have created a huge torture room where you are constantly tortured by giant tomatoes. You just don't know.

 

[Elenai]

Once again you don't know. God might have created a huge torture room where you are constantly tortured by giant tomatoes. You just don't know.

God would not do that. Unless he is not God, then...we would not be talking about God, but a completely separate entity.

God did not create a torture room, he is not a god of cruelty.

Likewise, if we must walk that road...you do not know...He may have indeed made it, just as I have theorized.

 

[Aschy]

So he wants us to accept Christ as our savior or else we will burn in flames forever? What's the point in giving us free will if he's going to pretty much force us to do what he wants us to do. Sure, the means are the different but the ends are the same. He did give us a choice: Worship Christ or burn forever. Not that much of a choice though...

Ok, ok first off I'm really tired of seeing this. Lets put the shoes on the other foot for a second.

Lets say that you had created everything and were God. Unless your immature like most people then you would just say I would pew pew everything into all fucking hell, but lets say that you actually wanted to see them prosper have good lives and all that nice shit. So you tell them who you are and why they should worship you, then one day one of your angels comes around and fucks it all up one day. Then you think could this ever be a pattern? Can freewill be so easily swayed when ever others are bribed or tricked? So you decide to make a plan to never let this fucking shit go down again but still want to do it in a loving manner without making everyone robots or killing them at your own freewill. So you plan out the end of the time when the angel who fucked it up "Satan" will be killed, but do people really understand why this Satanic influence should never be around? Well maybe this is where we are today, the learning process?


Don't be scared when people keep saying hell statements, have you ever been their? Have people actually ever come here and escaped from hell did God come to you when you were praying and tell you there is a hell? It's just like my belief in the Great Resurrection, its based on the Bible just like Hell is. But no one can be sure what happens, and isn't hell based on the verse about the Lake of Sulfur and Fire & Dante's vision of hell?

 

[Pyritie]

God would not do that. Unless he is not God, then...we would not be talking about God, but a completely separate entity.

How do you know?

 

[Elenai]

How do you know?

Because God is by definition a being of omnipotent benevolence, love, and justice. He would not be cruel, or unfair in his judgements, he is generous.

If he were not, he would not be God.

 

[Gilles]

Once again you don't know. God might have created a huge torture room where you are constantly tortured by giant tomatoes. You just don't know.

I'm of the opinion that Hell is simply the total absence of God. God is the true definition of good, and therefore Hell is void of anything good. Which would suck.

Note that I don't believe this to be truth, it's just an opinion. Hell could be anything.

Pyritie, we were talking about the God that Elenai, and other Christians believe in, correct? Therefore you have to go by his definition of an all loving God.

 

[CMarket]

God is the true definition of good

God can't be the definition of good. God created everything, including evil. If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else like Lucifer created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

 

[Pyritie]

By the way, Paradise Lost is a good book about this sort of thing. It basically tells the story of genesis but lengthens it a heck of a lot more. Its author tries to answer a bunch of questions that the bible left unanswered.

It's in old english so it's not that easy to read, but you can probably find an abridged version somewhere.

 

[PurplePoot]

To the numerous people who say that the Judeo-Christian god is everything which is good, etc:

Read the old testament.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

God can't be the definition of good. God created everything, including evil. If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else like Lucifer created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

Read Elenai's signature for an epiphany I had about a certain moron a while back. I'm not directing it at you, but it makes sense in a cynical way.

 

[Elenai]

God can't be the definition of good. God created everything, including evil. If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else like Lucifer created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

Good, and Evil are not 'created' as they are. Everything is created 'good' and becomes 'evil' by their own choice and will. Good is like light, Evil is like the absence of light. You can create light, but you can't 'make' darkness.

To the numerous people who say that the Judeo-Christian god is everything which is good, etc:

Read the old testament.

God is also a Just god. Blame not the executioner for what the law required...

 

[brad.dude03]

I like to amalgamate beliefs from all over. I love the concept of good and evil in Judaism:

"The human being is born neither good nor evil, but has the capacity for both. It's his choices that matter"

Rather than this "It's the Devil's fault" nonsense you get with Original Sin in Christianity, and the "Forgetfulness or mistake" in Islam, Judaism actually tries to get people to be responsible for their actions. Hooray! Maybe that's why Jews haven't gone on a religious rampage and killed a ton of people?

 

[CMarket]

Everything is created 'good' and becomes 'evil' by their own choice and will.

And because god knows every second of every day of every year he also knows what will become evil and because he created the things that will create evil he is once again the prime creator of evil. Same as why parents sometimes go to jail because of what their kids did.

 

[PurplePoot]

I like to amalgamate beliefs from all over. I love the concept of good and evil in Judaism:

"The human being is born neither good nor evil, but has the capacity for both. It's his choices that matter"

Rather than this "It's the Devil's fault" nonsense you get with Original Sin in Christianity, and the "Forgetfulness or mistake" in Islam, Judaism actually tries to get people to be responsible for their actions. Hooray! Maybe that's why Jews haven't gone on a religious rampage and killed a ton of people?

*Points at Israel*

God is also a Just god. Blame not the executioner for what the law required...

Execution being the operative word there.

1. The laws there were insane and "evil" by modern standards.
2. Perhaps the laws needed changing?
3. Again, please read the old testament.

 

[icecream_pirate]

*Points at Israel*

owned

 

[Elenai]

And because god knows every second of every day of every year he also knows what will become evil and because he created the things that will create evil he is once again the prime creator of evil.

Is it my fault, if my son kills a man? Or my son's?

Same as why parents sometimes go to jail because of what their kids did.

And they shouldn't.

Execution being the operative word there.

1. The laws there were insane and "evil" by modern standards.
2. Perhaps the laws needed changing?

You missed the metaphor...

The laws are fine for what they are for, the laws are harsh, and are meant to be so. Even still, the laws are not without their exceptions, and the laws are not without an ounce of mercy, and pardon. Especially under Christ.

The laws are not there to condemn, they are there to show. They do their job nicely. They are no more insane, or evil, than any of today's laws. The only difference, is that we are not tribal cultures, and we are far more open and lenient, and our technology no longer requires a rock to kill. Thus the laws seem barbaric, and primitive.

You should look at the culture of the time, and then come back to me when you have looked at the time with their eyes. These laws can be attached to our own, with but a shift in the thought process.

Show me examples of these laws, and I will make a modern day comparison by shifting the cultural equivalents.

3. Again, please read the old testament.

...You think I don't?

Perhaps you should take a nod from your own advice, and read perhaps about David, and Uriah's wife...Or any of the other people who broke the law, and were forgiven when they repented. Fulfilling the portion of mercy.

 

[PurplePoot]

Is it my fault, if my son kills a man? Or my son's?

If such a being is not responsible for the evil of others, nor are they responsible for the good.

<Plenty of text>

The culture of the time was defined by those laws. So if anything, the reason we are more pure nowadays (in your view of pure) is because we have deviated from your god's law.

...You think I don't?

Perhaps you should take a nod from your own advice, and read perhaps about David, and Uriah's wife...Or any of the other people who broke the law, and were forgiven when they repented. Fulfilling the portion of mercy.

A few people being forgiven does not trump entire civilizations being annihilated, women being used as sacrifices to protect fellow believers who happened to be men (The guy who threw his wife and daughter to the crowd and told them to rape them to death rather than chasing the believer they were after, for example - sorry, can't remember his name), stonings, and so on?

 

[icecream_pirate]

well since the thread has gone way off topic already, lets get even more off topic.
If a leaf falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?

 

[PurplePoot]

That was way too off topic, and it's hardly philosophy. If you define noise as the vibration within one's ears, then no. If you define it as the sound waves, then yes. Back to the topic at hand - there's a difference between conversation progressing and people just randomly interjecting.

 

[Elenai]

If such a being is not responsible for the evil of others, nor are they responsible for the good.

If God helps, then he is a party to the gain of it. IE: Answers to prayers.

The culture of the time was defined by those laws. So if anything, the reason we are more pure nowadays (in your view of pure) is because we have deviated from your god's law.

When did I say we are more pure today?

A few people being forgiven does not trump entire civilizations being annihilated,

These civilizations being annihilated by...other civilizations. All God did was simply remove the protection around the nations that needed a good wake up call. Usually Israel.

women being used as sacrifices to protect fellow believers who happened to be men (The guy who threw his wife and daughter to the crowd and told them to rape them to death rather than chasing the believer they were after, for example - sorry, can't remember his name),

Lot did it, not God, or his angels, nor by his command, and it is not in the laws.

stonings, and so on?

Electric Chair, Lethal injection...Firing squad.

 

[PurplePoot]

If God helps, then he is a party to the gain of it. IE: Answers to prayers.

IE encouraging murder, drowning civilizations, killing kingdoms via the plague, dropping fireballs on peoples' heads, etc, etc, etc. Evil.

When did I say we are more pure today?

You are going on about how that time had its own rules due to us being more primitive etc. That and you hold the current societal values of good.

These civilizations being annihilated by...other civilizations. All God did was simply remove the protection around the nations that needed a good wake up call. Usually Israel.

Or plagues. Or floods. Or fireballs. You get the idea.

Lot did it, not God, or his angels, nor by his command, and it is not in the laws.

And it isn't exactly discouraged, is it?

Electric Chair, Lethal injection...Firing squad.

Those are fast. Stoning is hardly. Besides, in most western countries capital punishment is considered immoral nowadays as well.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I like to amalgamate beliefs from all over. I love the concept of good and evil in Judaism:

"The human being is born neither good nor evil, but has the capacity for both. It's his choices that matter"

Rather than this "It's the Devil's fault" nonsense you get with Original Sin in Christianity, and the "Forgetfulness or mistake" in Islam, Judaism actually tries to get people to be responsible for their actions. Hooray! Maybe that's why Jews haven't gone on a religious rampage and killed a ton of people?

Actually, weren't they pretty much the first of the monotheistic religions to do so? Some thousand years ago? I believe they killed many nomadic groups of people so they could form a kingdom on the land they were supposedly promised by God. Then the Diaspora happened.

 

[Elenai]

IE encouraging murder, drowning civilizations, killing kingdoms via the plague, dropping fireballs on peoples' heads, etc, etc, etc. Evil.

Not if they deserved it.

You are going on about how that time had its own rules due to us being more primitive etc. That and you hold the current societal values of good.

No...I was saying that things seem primitive and bad back then because it wasn't 'as advanced' as today's methods, or as lenient. I never said I hold today's current values to be good...

Or plagues. Or floods. Or fireballs. You get the idea.

They deserved it.

And it isn't exactly discouraged, is it?

I'm pretty sure that God figured "they won't rape them" into his thoughts. And they didn't...and God did intervene. The angels drew Lot and the family into the house very shortly after, and struck the crowd blind. It was a rather 'quick' proceeding...not much time for a moral and a giving of the law...to do so would be rather unbelievable.

"And God stopped time, and gave to Lot a saying: Don't <long passage about not offering your daugters>, and time started again, and the angels went on with their business"

Those are fast. Stoning is hardly. Besides, in most western countries capital punishment is considered immoral nowadays as well.

Cooking is faster these days too. And capital punishment isn't immoral...It is justice at the maximum point. Did Mao Zedong deserve to be executed? Yes.

 

[brad.dude03]

Actually, weren't they pretty much the first of the monotheistic religions to do so? Some thousand years ago? I believe they killed many nomadic groups of people so they could form a kingdom on the land they were supposedly promised by God. Then the Diaspora happened.

Well they're all crazy. I don't know my religious history too well. I'm more about my own personal beliefs than a collected belief system.

But compared to the widescale massacres on behalf of Christianity (The Crusades, the Inquisition, etc, etc, "Two thousand years of anti-semitism" and the religious 'purges' done by extremist Muslims, Judaism has been relatively non-violent?

I mean hell, before the Commandments came along people had to be ordered not to eat each other. Things were barbaric back then, so it ain't no big surprise.

 

[PurplePoot]

<Stuff about deserving it>

• Don't christians believe that killing is wrong? I was under that impression.
• Would you support mass murder in a modern society?

No...I was saying that things seem primitive and bad back then because it wasn't 'as advanced' as today's methods, or as lenient. I never said I hold today's current values to be good...

Well than I don't think either I nor many christians can identify with your idea of an ideal society.

I'm pretty sure that God figured "they won't rape them" into his thoughts. And they didn't...and God did intervene. The angels drew Lot and the family into the house very shortly after, and struck the crowd blind. It was a rather 'quick' proceeding...not much time for a moral and a giving of the law...to do so would be rather unbelievable.

"And God stopped time, and gave to Lot a saying: Don't <long passage about not offering your daugters>, and time started again, and the angels went on with their business"

But the attempt and the thought are reason enough. If you try to kill someone but fail, you don't get off in court.

Cooking is faster these days too. And capital punishment isn't immoral...It is justice at the maximum point. Did Mao Zedong deserve to be executed? Yes.

Why?

 

[Elenai]

* Don't christians believe that killing is wrong? I was under that impression.
* Would you support mass murder in a modern society?

Murder is wrong...not killing. Soldiers aren't murderers :/

Not mass murder.

Well than I don't think either I nor many christians can identify with your idea of an ideal society.

My idea society is one where people are free from the root of the reason why they need laws in the first place. Free from their perverted natures, where they can be unhindered when they do a good deed. Is that so hard to grasp?

But the attempt and the thought are reason enough. If you try to kill someone but fail, you don't get off in court.

Of course, and it is highly possible...that he either repented, or didn't get off with it if he didn't. I'll have to look into this of course.

Why?

A life for a life, he took thousands.

 

[PurplePoot]

My idea society is one where people are free from the root of the reason why they need laws in the first place. Free from their perverted natures, where they can be unhindered when they do a good deed. Is that so hard to grasp?

Then the first step would be to remove religion from that society, since its core principles are that people cannot be trusted to be moral and have to be bullied into it.

A life for a life, he took thousands.

/god.