What happens after death?

[Elenai]

Then the first step would be to remove religion from that society, since its core principles are that people cannot be trusted to be moral and have to be bullied into it.

Religion != morality.

/god./quote]

God is acted as Judge, not as a murderer.

There is a difference between murder, war, defense and punishment.

 

[PurplePoot]

Religion != morality.

It attempts to be, and that is its basic premise. Be good <and worship me while you're at it> or I send you to hell.

God is acted as Judge, not as a murderer.

There is a difference between murder, war, defense and punishment.

Mao believed in what he was doing and attempted to justify it as well.

 

[Elenai]

It attempts to be, and that is its basic premise. Be good <and worship me while you're at it> or I send you to hell.

...Have you been listening at all? We've already talked about BOTH parts of that.

Mao believed in what he was doing and attempted to justify it as well.

Mao's actions, and the root of them, was certainly not like God's.

 

[RaijinSpark]

Die and Find out

 

[PurplePoot]

...Have you been listening at all? We've already talked about BOTH parts of that.

Apparently not well enough.

Mao's actions, and the root of them, was certainly not like God's.

Mao killed less people? Or Mao didn't succeed in deifying himself beyond in a few countries? Or what?

 

[Elenai]

Mao killed less people? Or Mao didn't succeed in deifying himself beyond in a few countries? Or what?

...Mao stole farmland, killed people who refused to give it up, and did all sorts of rather unsavory acts against mankind...amongst these being torture...work camps...etc..no mercy, no forgiveness, no thought other than building an empire as quickly as possible to leave a burning mark on history. He broke free will, and basically acted like a complete ass hole.

God only brought plagues upon those who made war with him, his people, or those who required punishment, and in a just manner. God never tortured anyone...or did anything after the fashion of Mao, or Stalin...

That is the difference.

 

[PurplePoot]

...Mao stole farmland, killed people who refused to give it up, and did all sorts of rather unsavory acts against mankind...amongst these being torture...work camps...etc..no mercy, no forgiveness, no thought other than building an empire as quickly as possible to leave a burning mark on history. He broke free will, and basically acted like a complete ass hole.

God only brought plagues upon those who made war with him, his people, or those who required punishment, and in a just manner. God never tortured anyone...or did anything after the fashion of Mao, or Stalin...

That is the difference.

Mao didn't screw with people who went along with him, and killed off the rest. God followed exactly the same route.

 

[Elenai]

Mao didn't screw with people who went along with him, and killed off the rest. God followed exactly the same route.

God was acting as a defender of his people, and a judge, and all the while did it in an appropriate manner.

Mao did not have the authority, or the right to do what he did was quite inappropriate.

 

[PurplePoot]

God was acting as a defender of his people, and a judge, and all the while did it in an appropriate manner.

Mao did not have the authority, or the right to do what he did was quite inappropriate.

Defender of his people? Everyone are his people according to your belief.

Also, the only reason I see presented for your god being in the right is because you believe he was, or want to believe he was, while you believe or want to believe that Mao was the epitome of evil.

 

[Elenai]

Defender of his people? Everyone are his people according to your belief.

Yes...and those who need a good wake up call, get one.

Also, the only reason I see presented for your god being in the right is because you believe he was, or want to believe he was, while you believe or want to believe that Mao was the epitome of evil.

Not the epitome...

And the reason is not because I 'want' to believe anything.

Is Mao a saint?

 

[PurplePoot]

Yes...and those who need a good wake up call, get one.

And Mao did the same.

Not the epitome...

And the reason is not because I 'want' to believe anything.

Is Mao a saint?

Do I care? I'm not christian, so being a saint is meaningless to me. Neither was Mao, so I doubt he'd care either.

 

[Elenai]

And Mao did the same.

Not with the right attitude...

Do I care? I'm not christian, so being a saint is meaningless to me. Neither was Mao, so I doubt he'd care either.

*facepalm*

"Was Mao a saint?"

Saint being a synonym for good person, or however the saying goes...

"I swear, that man is a fricken saint!"

 

[Hakeem]

Would God punish those people just because of the IMPOSSIBILITY for them to find the right religion?

Heck if I know, but it doesn't sound like he would.

God doesn't make any sense.

You presume to know what God would do?

Will God force me into heaven even if I want my soul to fade out of existence?

I don't see why he would.

He did give us a choice: Worship Christ or burn forever. Not that much of a choice though...

And people still make it "wrong." Says something doesn't it?

If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good.

He also made the good. This would make him not evil?

Do you presume to know God's motivation? I'm sure he had his reasons for creating evil just as much as he had reasons for creating good, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. The question is whether or not he is more good or more evil. Until time itself ends. Let's wait and see.

the "Forgetfulness or mistake" in Islam

Merely a way of visualizing free will. You are certainly responsible for your actions in Islam.

But compared to [...] the religious 'purges' done by extremist Muslims, Judaism has been relatively non-violent?

It's almost as if you mean to say that extremists condemn the rest of the Muslims.

Then the first step would be to remove religion from that society, since its core principles are that people cannot be trusted to be moral and have to be bullied into it.

Christianity is not a full equivalent to religion, it is a subset of religion. Islam is also a subset of religion. It's as if you are condemning the whole for the actions of a few.

Side note.

I came to anarchy because I saw it the only feasible way to implement some ideas of my religion.
"You can't do this with laws, you have to let everybody be free to govern it themselves."

---

@Previous back and forth nonsense:

Okay, let's say I go around killing people. No, worse. Let's say I'm going around spraying people with toxic chemicals that result in a very slow, and very painful death. It could takes weeks of immobilizing pain before you finally die. I also hook everyone up to life-support devices and administer small doses of antidote so that you writhe in continuous pain and the only way you die is by virtue of sheer mental collapse.

So nobody kills me because they are all good? What good person (or God) would stand by and let me torture everyone?

 

[Elenai]

Merely a way of visualizing free will. You are certainly responsible for your actions in Islam.

Likewise we are responsible for your own actions in Christianity, we simply say mankind is prone to it, since Adam's original fall. (atleast I think so)

(just to add my side's little tid bit)

 

[Gilles]

God can't be the definition of good. God created everything, including evil. If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else like Lucifer created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

No, God created people and angels with free will, we "created" evil. As well, remember that evil is the absence, or the warping of good, not something you can create. The devil never invented anything.

To the numerous people who say that the Judeo-Christian god is everything which is good, etc:

Read the old testament.

This is often an argument, but you are thinking about the old testament from todays perspective. Put yourself at that time.

For example, one common one was where Abraham's (I think it was him) son's family is taken by some other tribe. They are running away with them, and Abraham chases them down. He has a much larger army (if I remember correctly), and he slaughters them all (not his family of course). People ask how he could do such a thing, and still be "favored" by God. However the people that ask this are not putting themselves in that era. If he had simply taken back his family, that tribe would surely come back to his house with allies, and kill them. To protect yourself, you had to kill, there was no jails, or law.

Also, remember that in general, before Christ came, the world was a bloodthirsty place. Christianity changed the world to the way it is today.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

This is often an argument, but you are thinking about the old testament from todays perspective. Put yourself at that time.

For example, one common one was where Abraham's (I think it was him) son's family is taken by some other tribe. They are running away with them, and Abraham chases them down. He has a much larger army (if I remember correctly), and he slaughters them all (not his family of course). People ask how he could do such a thing, and still be "favored" by God. However the people that ask this are not putting themselves in that era. If he had simply taken back his family, that tribe would surely come back to his house with allies, and kill them. To protect yourself, you had to kill, there was no jails, or law.

Also, remember that in general, before Christ came, the world was a bloodthirsty place. Christianity changed the world to the way it is today.

Sure sucks to be a Jew.

 

[Gausslander]

Sure sucks to be a Jew.

Here, here!

 

[The_Silent]

Also, remember that in general, before Christ came, the world was a bloodthirsty place. Christianity changed the world to the way it is today.

Many things have happend the last 2000 years, it would be to simply to state that it was because of Christianity. Like many Africans is Christians, but their country isn't that well, right? Anouther fact is that the North contains the only real welfare state (With a safty net and all that) in the world, but the only special about us is that we once believed in the Nordic mythology and was vikings.

 

[Elenai]

Western Society has a approximately three very large roots; Christianity, Roman Law, Grecian-Arabic science/math.

Christianity being one of the biggest and most high volume roots, and mediums for cultural advancement, and exchange. The crusades brought back more than just a negative impact on Christians, and tons of plunder. It brought back culture.

 

[PurplePoot]

Yes, and the christian root now.

We all come from Africa. Does that make us behave the same as those living in Africa today?

--

@Hakeem: Yeah, corrected myself about that a bit later.

 

[CMarket]

We all come from Africa. Does that make us behave the same as those living in Africa today?

That's a thing of culture, not religion. Same way how British act totally differently than people from my country, even though we're more or less the same religion.

 

[PurplePoot]

And my ancestors were christian, and yet do I talk or behave like one?

 

[CMarket]

You just confirmed my point. It's a matter of culture, not religion.

 

[Gilles]

Many things have happend the last 2000 years, it would be to simply to state that it was because of Christianity. Like many Africans is Christians, but their country isn't that well, right? Anouther fact is that the North contains the only real welfare state (With a safty net and all that) in the world, but the only special about us is that we once believed in the Nordic mythology and was vikings.

You think it pure coincidence that Europe rapidly improved while Christianity was quickly becoming the dominant Religion in Europe? I don't.

 

[PurplePoot]

Rapidly improved? Hardly.

--

China is rapidly improving, and no one really knows what they are. A mixture of muslims, buddhists, atheists, and many others.

--

Europe had agricultural etc reasons for improving as it did. Read guns, germs, and steel.

--

Religion is dropping yearly and yet we are improving faster yearly. Are you suggesting those are correlated?

 

[Gilles]

Rapidly improved? Hardly.

--

China is rapidly improving, and no one really knows what they are. A mixture of muslims, buddhists, atheists, and many others.

I never said only Christianity can improve things.

--

Europe had agricultural etc reasons for improving as it did. Read guns, germs, and steel.

I don't think it would have improved like it did without Christianity.

--

Religion is dropping yearly and yet we are improving faster yearly. Are you suggesting those are correlated?

I'd argue that people are riding on what Christianity has brought about. Remember that it's only recently that Religion has declined. Looking at Europe, I think it's going down the tube, simply because they've lost God.

As well, what do you mean by improving? technologically, yes, we will continue to improve without Christianity, but socially we are not, imo.

 

[Gausslander]

I'd argue that people are riding on what Christianity has brought about.

An unforeseen amount of killing and death?
The cause for Christian leaders sending their men off to cleanse opposing religions?
The burning of blacks on a cross?

Looking at Europe, I think it's going down the tube, simply because they've lost God.

Um... no. They're going down the tube because the US government previously lead by a Christian-Extremist failed, sending the rest of the civilized world into a great depression.

 

[Gilles]

An unforeseen amount of killing and death?
The cause for Christian leaders sending their men off to cleanse opposing religions?
The burning of blacks on a cross?

What's this cleansing of opposing Religions?
The last one isn't an example of Christianity, it's an example of extremists.

Um... no. They're going down the tube because the US government previously lead by a Christian-Extremist failed, sending the rest of the civilized world into a great depression.

How is Bush connected to the failing economy? The banks are the problem, not the previous government.



As well, are you guys arguing that atheists kill less?

 

[Gausslander]

As well, are you guys arguing that atheists kill less?

Yes... because it is true?

What's this cleansing of opposing Religions?
The last one isn't an example of Christianity, it's an example of extremists.

... No.. it's an example of Christian-Extremists...

How is Bush connected to the failing economy? The banks are the problem, not the previous government.

No... what about the war that Bush said was a 'mission from god' to enter and complete that has cost us 12 billion dollars a month?

Scyth, I hate to give Bush any credit, but the economy isn't his fault.

Not completely, but its not a good thing to just pass him up.

 

[PurplePoot]

Scyth, I hate to give Bush any credit, but the economy isn't his fault.

And Gilles, it doesn't matter how much atheists kill, because they don't kill in the name of atheism. (For another example) You don't suicide yourself for your lack of belief in something - it simply makes no sense.

 

[Elenai]

To be fair, it would be a good idea to not say

"Christianity is bad, and has never helped mankind, because certain groups within said religion did bad things."

Because...I can turn around and show you an old Soviet Siberian death camp if you would like...

 

[Gilles]

And Gilles, it doesn't matter how much atheists kill, because they don't kill in the name of atheism. (For another example) You don't suicide yourself for your lack of belief in something - it simply makes no sense.

Atheists have killed others because of their religion.
Atheism is, for all intense and purposes, a religion.

 

[PurplePoot]

How is not believing in something a religion?

Saying someone killed because they were an atheist is like saying they killed because of their mustache: lack of belief means lack of faith-based grounds off of which to back one's actions.

 

[Gausslander]

Atheists have killed others because of their religion.
Atheism is, for all intense and purposes, a religion.

You found out our secret!

We worship the almighty Ath!

Praise be him our lizard god, and his almighty brother whose followers are, for the most part, our allies; Agnast!

Your intelligence is outstanding in that you have unhooked our curtain of non-religion, and unearthed a secret bigger then the creation of the universe itself!

 

[Elenai]

Belief that there is no god, requires faith, that there is not.

It is a faith, even if it is technically not a religion.

"Bald is not a hair colour...but it is a hair style."

 

[CMarket]

"Bald is not a hair colour...but it is a hair style."

Sorry, but that is a really, really, really stupid metaphor.

What Elenai meant to say was that from a empirical point of view even nothing is something. So atheism is non-belief which in a way is a belief of it's own(however, definitely not a religion like some pointed out).

 

[Linaze]

Atheism is not a religion at all. It is merely a way of thinking.

 

[Elenai]

Sorry, but that is a really, really, really stupid metaphor.

Atheists use the 'hair colour' metaphor all the time...all I did was add an addition. :/

It isn't stupid...

 

[Pyritie]

Just because other people use it doesn't mean it makes any sense.

And atheism is not a religion. That's the whole point of it.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Really, no one knows until we die. This discussion is irrelevant.

 

[Elenai]

And atheism is not a religion. That's the whole point of it.

Not a 'religion', but it is a faith.

 

[PurplePoot]

It is not directed at anything; in fact, it is directed at the lack thereof. Thus, it's pretty damn hard to do stuff in its name.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

Honestly, you atheists are just as bad as christians. You say we are annoying for telling you to believe in God. You are annoying for telling us to not believe. Basically Christians and Atheists are a bunch of assholes. Agnostics are soo far superior to Atheists when it comes to discussing religion. Please note I'm not agnostic, but I'm sick of Atheists claiming they are better than Christians when they are being just as hypocritical if not even more so.

 

[PurplePoot]

I'm not an atheist, first off (though I lean towards atheism more than religion).

I'm just tired of organized religion more than anything.

 

[Hakeem]

How is not believing in something a religion?

It isn't. Atheism is not a lack of belief in God. Atheism is belief in a lack of God. It can also be an anti-religion thing, and that is where we start to get action.

It is not directed at anything; in fact, it is directed at the lack thereof. Thus, it's pretty damn hard to do stuff in its name.

A revolution is a fight against the government. As an anarchist, I am against government. There are anarchists who would fight the government. I am not one of them, neither do I support such action.

I'm not an atheist, first off (though I lean towards atheism more than religion).

I'd classify you as an atheist. Possibly an uncertain one, but an atheist nonetheless. I give the title of agnostic only to those that really have no idea whether or not there is a God. People who haven't even heard of the concept of God, for example.

 

[l0git3c]

"What happens after death?"

I dont know....but i really hope, i`ll reborn after death......

 

[brad.dude03]

I dunno, people who are open to the belief that there is a God should be classified as Agnostic. Whereas Atheists are closeminded in the sense that they believe that there is no God, Agnostics think that there could be, but they don't subscribe to any religion, and they don't know for sure.

 

[CMarket]

I'm sick of Atheists claiming they are better than Christians when they are being just as hypocritical if not even more so.

Hypocritical? How does hypocrisy have ANYTHING to do with atheism or religion?! Do you even know what the word means? Do you think Christians go around pretending that they believe in god while actually worshiping Lucifer? Do you think atheists say god does not exist, whilst actually having a church in their back yard? Get a dictionary.

 

[Gausslander]

Honestly, you atheists are just as bad as christians. You say we are annoying for telling you to believe in God. You are annoying for telling us to not believe. Basically Christians and Atheists are a bunch of assholes. Agnostics are soo far superior to Atheists when it comes to discussing religion. Please note I'm not agnostic, but I'm sick of Atheists claiming they are better than Christians when they are being just as hypocritical if not even more so.

How can you love Agnostics and hate Atheists?
That's like loving bread abut hating butter.

And I know you're not Agnostic, but the fact that you hate one point of view and love the other doesn't make any sense. We're so closely bonded to each other that hating one and not the other doesn't make any sense.

All we do is publicize our disbelief in god, rather then shadowing it in uncertainty.

 

[Arvedui]

This topic is rather humorous to read. None of you are going to solve anything. And as like 20 people have said: You're never going to know until you die.

But continue arguing. It provides me with quite a few laughs.

Just pointing this out though: From what I've seen in the topic, the atheists are attacking and the Christians are defending.

Maybe you should think about that.