Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update – Ranked Play

Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update – Ranked Play

Blizzard said: blizzarrow.gif

July 22, 2020

Developer Update Header.jpg

Greetings Warcraft III: Reforged players!

Since our last update, we’ve released a variety of changes to Warcraft III: Reforged with our 1.32.6 PTR and patch. From a major balance update, to more bug and desync fixes as well as additional matchmaking improvements, our quest to make Reforged ever better continues.

As we mentioned in our last Developer Update, we’d like to continue sharing details and insights on our ongoing development plans for Warcraft III: Reforged alongside each patch. For this installment, we wanted to give you a look at the changes we have in store for our highest-priority feature addition currently under development: Ranked Play.


SETTING GOALS

When revisiting our designs for Ranked Play, we established a set of primary goals to guide our decision-making. Fundamentally, Ranked Play should provide a clear and trustworthy way for players to gauge their level of skill, as well as the skill of other players. In support of this, we’ve opted to make players’ ranks linked directly to their MMRs, rather than using a more detached, progression-based system. Additionally, while Ranked Play is the most competitive way to play Warcraft III: Reforged, it’s also important for us to ensure that this experience will be friendly for new players and veteran alike.

As we continue building this next generation of Ranked Play, we want to deliver an experience where the features and functionality build upon the original Warcraft III Ranked mode, while also considering the community-driven variants that have emerged in both legacy Warcraft III and Reforged.


A LOOK AT RANKED PLAY

As with the legacy version of Warcraft III, all five of the game modes in Reforged (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, FFA) will have their own ranked ladders. In keeping with legacy Warcraft III’s spirit, we also wanted to ensure that there are no requirements for moving up or down in rank beyond your raw point value. This means we will not institute systems like promotion or demotion matches.

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Work in Progress: 1v1 Leaderboard

However, we have made some changes from the legacy version that we believe will lead to a better Ranked Play experience for players. We will be moving from the previous levels system to a more distinct medal system. Those familiar with StarCraft II ranked ladders will recognize the Bronze through Grandmaster ranking system, which we are bringing to Reforged.

The Grandmaster division will now be the highest rank and will only comprise the top 300 players with the highest MMR globally. When players jump into Ranked matches, they will be able to see their rank badge next to each player’s name on the loading screen. Those in Master and Grandmaster will additionally have their MMR displayed to all players as well. In another change from the legacy Ranked system, we will now be displaying a player’s own MMR directly to them in the main menu and in their in-game profiles as well.


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Additionally, we wanted to address the aggressive experience decay that was in place in the legacy Ranked Ladder for Warcraft III. The original intent behind such an aggressive decay was to retain active players so that they could maintain their ranks. We believe that this was too punishing and have now decided to remove experience decay from Reforged for all ranks. We may decide to implement experience decay for Grandmaster in the future, but we’ll continue to monitor the data and see what would make the most sense for our top competitive players.


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To determine their Rank in the new system, players will now need to complete a series of five placement matches. These placement matches will only be required for any game mode or race combination where a player has not yet received a rank. For those who do have a rank, only one placement match will be needed after each season roll for any mode or race combination where a player has been placed.


SEASONS OVERVIEW

Alongside the improvements coming to the Ranked Ladder, we are also going to be bringing Ranked Seasons to Warcraft III for the first time. Seasons will offer an opportunity to roll in balance updates, fresh map rotations, and other adjustments, as well as give players rewards for participating (and seeing how high up the ladder they can climb) in each new Season.

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Work in Progress: Season 1 Unranked Status


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Work in Progress: Season 1 Ranked Play Placement in Progress

We will adjust player MMR and divisions between Seasons to maintain rank division sizes and prevent MMR drift to keep matchmaking times down. We think Seasons will provide structure for Ranked updates and give players the time to mentally reset and get excited for the new Season and new seasonal rewards.

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Work in Progress: Season 1 Ranked Play in Versus - Placed Status


Speaking of seasonal rewards—we plan to award a portrait for each division and players will earn new portraits as they rank up. Portraits will unlock for all divisions earned at and below a player’s rank. With each new Season, players can expect fresh new portraits to showcase their achievements for that season.

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Work in progress Ranked Silver and Gold badges.

While Seasons are brand new to the Warcraft III community, we’re excited about the benefits this framework will bring to the game.


SHARPENING SKILLS IN UNRANKED MODE

In addition to improving the Ranked experience for Reforged, we also want to expand upon it by adding an Unranked mode to the game. Unranked will be coming soon after Ranked mode is added to the game, for those players that would like to practice new races, tactics, and more in a competitive setting without the same stakes as formal Ranked matches.

Here’s a look at how this new game mode will work:

Unranked will have its own MMR attributed per race and per game mode, and is separate from the Ranked MMR system. Unranked MMR will never be displayed or reset, and the only way it will change is through the player’s progression as they play. We expect that there will likely be some MMR drift between Ranked and Unranked, but we feel this is acceptable as the Ranked and Unranked players are approaching each game mode with different mindsets.

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Work in Progress: Profile Match History

As is the case in StarCraft II, Unranked players will be matched against Ranked players in 1v1 games. Wins and Losses will count as normal for Ranked players to ensure that players still try their best and continue to play to win. Ranked players will also be able to rank up by defeating an Unranked player as well.

When playing in Team games, we will only matchmake teams of all Ranked or all Unranked players onto the same team to ensure the fairest matches. That means Unranked players will only be paired with other Unranked players, and vice versa. For those players playing Unranked in Arranged Teams, the matchmaker will average player MMR and treat you like any other Arranged Team. However, at the conclusion of each match, team history is not tracked like ordinary Arranged teams.

Seasons will also have no bearing on Unranked mode. This means that there will be no Ladder resets for Unranked mode; however, wins in Unranked will count toward unlocking existing win-based portraits.


IN CLOSING

We know that this is just part of the complete Ranked play experience you’re expecting—we will be detailing our approach to Profiles and more in our next developer update. While we’re aiming to release Ranked Play in the coming months, it’s important that we take the time needed to deliver a combination of features that best serves our players and the Warcraft III community. We’re looking forward to seeing the community discussion around our current plans for Ranked, Seasons, and Unranked modes, and we’ll provide updates on our progress as development continues.

- The Warcraft III Team
 
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Level 24
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I personally don't play ladder games but i'm glad to see that they haven't abandoned us. Maybe after this patch we can get some major editor improvements!
 
While we’re aiming to release Ranked Play in the coming >>months<<, it’s important that we take the time needed to deliver a combination of features that best serves our players and the Warcraft III community.
I'm just worried about this very word at the end of the article. Not that I want to play ranked personally, but the more time that passes the worse it gets. Other than that it looks solid.
 
Level 12
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Good news. I'll shit on these good news to point out once again that this should've been in the main release, and that the main release should've been postponed until stuff like this was ready.

Good to see them making progress and upholding commitment regardless.
 
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It's great to see more developer updates. This is what should've happened from day 1.

I just hope the next one is focused squarely on single player content and Custom Campaigns. It feels like that side is a footnote, when for many who bought Reforged, the singleplayer campaigns were a big reason why they paid out.
 
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I will not support the sale of unfinished products with the view to 'finish' them after release. Especially when you break and/or remove existing features in the first place. This patch is not sufficient, neither is the game.
 
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Ladder is good and dandy but is it really the main priority atm? because most of the players are in the game for custom games.... Devs priorities are going in the wrong direction....
Don't get me wrong, the ladder is a needed thing but putting almost all resources on making it, and not giving us another information on the important things that are crucial for the game in what state is it right now its just .. i don't know .. stupid?
me personaly i don't care about ladder , never did.
What news i want to see are something like this

- We added new major functions to the editor
  • Ai advanced creation editor

  • More native function to triggers.

  • Being able to create folders/subfolders in object editor

  • Easier UI editor (so we can potentialy do whatever we want via triggers native functions that can be added for that matter)

  • Remove limits to decorations numbers, tile numbers

  • Fix the work with the maps of type folder (importing icons via that option does not work , their path is using the wrong symbol / instead of \

  • Ability to open few maps at the same time in one editor (good for testing different function on lesser maps then insta copy/paste to main map)

  • More options in object editor. (mass copy , create , delete , rename , select, change same options like damage/armor/upgrades on many units at the same time)

  • Ability to create points on the map (aka SC2)
- We fixed fps lags and spikes. (and the game now can run properly on 60 stable fps , when there are more then 150+ units on the screen)

- We added shaders/filters (so the game can look how they initial showed on the blizzcon)

- We fixed damn shadows for classic custom units.


The list can keep going on , but this is what news i want to see.... but guess what we are getting instead..
 
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I don't know, but they could have used the old classification system, while this "new system" was being built.

What news i want to see are something like this
Well pro gamer people, as in starcraft remastered will be satisfied with this. I believe

- We fixed damn shadows for classic custom units.

What great changes, not really. It doesn't make up for anything they promised. Either way.
 
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yeah, but whats the point in reforged then? (no one plays on reforged graphics.....) so it literaly did bring nothing to the table..

That's right. Unfortunately, everything went wrong at the launch of this game, perhaps by 2021 everything would be ready. And to top it off what you mention they had to do in War 3 Reforged for the editor, it could already be done in patch 1.26a, it was not so difficult for the community to make those changes in the editor, but the main game is not based on Custom Maps, this is more focused on the RTS Games itself. (Sure, only for Blizzard)
 
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I like the icon art for divisions and rewards, but... uh... kinda late for this amount of progress and still 1-2+ months away? I'm not sure what they're really doing, hopefully at least this month's patch is larger than last months... Can we please fix the bugs I've been reporting since release?

1.32.7 bug reports (Please fix)


There's a few others that were found by other people such as Triggerhappy finding that periodic events/timers desync and stuff like that. and well a less of a big bug but more of an inconvenience of war3minimappreview no longer working and having to do a clunky swapping thing ingame.
 

deepstrasz

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I wonder when they are goig to add back costum campaigns back?
Like asking about the sky when it's about the ocean.
I just hope the next one is focused squarely on single player content and Custom Campaigns. It feels like that side is a footnote, when for many who bought Reforged, the singleplayer campaigns were a big reason why they paid out.
First they are aiming at having a playable game as mentioned, multiplayer melee. After hopefully custom games and campaigns and even more hopefully, after editor features.
Ladder is good and dandy but is it really the main priority atm? because most of the players are in the game for custom games.... Devs priorities are going in the wrong direction....
No ladder means crippling the pro scene and drawing attention away from Blizzard to third party servers/tournaments.
What news i want to see are something like this
The wrong thread for it IMO.
I like the icon art for divisions and rewards, but... uh... kinda late for this amount of progress and still 1-2+ months away?
Letting the game die would be worse. 1.31.1 is buggy as hell and with the community divided as it is in numerous patch versions, only thing to bring us together is a stable update. Of course, pirates are going to stand aside.

That being said, it's a long way to the top if you wanna Blackrock and Roll.
 
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The main question is how the player-made ladder, Wc3 Champions, will respond to the implementation of the new ladder. I don't think it would not be good for the player base if everyone is split between 2 ladders that are mutually exclusive.

As for global match-making, one suggestion is to allow players to choose from two options when searching for games; if they would rather just match with players in their own servers (higher match time, but guaranteed low ping), or global (fast match time, possibility of higher ping).


Edit: I just want to point out that I agree with the update being written to describe the Game as "Warcraft 3" (the only place it is described as Warcraft 3 Reforged is right at the top). Right now, many people still talk about Reforged as being separate from Wc3, which I always thought was a mistake Blizzard made, at least from a discourse point of view. It would be best if the game was always called just Warcraft III so people do not have ammunition to call it out as being a separate game/make it harder for them to prevent their good-will towards the original Warcraft III from projecting onto "the update".

The game will make far more money if people who never bought it originally bought it, as posed to people who already had it and bought it for the graphical upgrade. So treating it as a continuation of normal Warcraft will probably be best in attracting that first group, which has the potential for bringing the game far more sales.
 
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I haven't played Starcraft II in a while, but from what I remember - most of this seems pretty directly lifted from Starcraft II, with some little tweaks and a Warcraft coat of paint applied to it. I'm not going to complain about that, though - if it works, it works, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Their plans look good, as simple as that.

Hopefully everything works out and the melee/ranked community gets a really functional system. Good job, Reforged devs.

[We know that this is just part of the complete Ranked play experience you’re expecting—we will be detailing our approach to Profiles and more in our next developer update. While we’re aiming to release Ranked Play in the coming months
This is very worrying, though. Blizzard has a certain way of wording their blogs/announcements and one of them is that if they say that something will come "in the coming months" then it's actually pretty far away. Based on that, I'd even go as far as bet that we might not see this ladder update until mid-late Q4 or heck, even early 2021. I'd like to be wrong on this, but from my experience with Blizzard it really doesn't look like this update is coming soon.

Why is this worrying? Because they're clearly focusing most of their development efforts on the ladder update. The real question here is whether Profiles are a part of that update or not? If yes then that's okay. It will likely take them to like Novemeber to release it, then the game will once again break and they will spend a couple months on putting the fires out, so... realistically the development focus will shift to custom campaigns/editor updates in early 2021 and we'll maybe get them next year.

But what if Profiles are a completely separate update meant to come after ladders? I'm not joking here - this could mean that custom campaigns or custom games/editor updates might not come until 2022. I know that I might seem like an extreme pessimist, but when it comes to Reforged, I've learned to not expect much.

One big update per year and the game actually being in a decent state in like 3-4 years is where I'm at right now. Legit, I think we might get D4 before Reforged is fixed. And I want to be wrong about this, but blogs like this one - as good as their plans might sound - only make me more convinced that I'm not.

Anyway, I've vented some of my overwhelming inner pessimism about the game and I feel better. I hope I'm wrong, I'm happy that melee/ladder folks have something nice coming their way, but at the end of the day... fixing Reforged is going really, really slow. Much slower than what I think anyone would have hoped for.
 
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One big update per year and the game actually being in a decent state in like 3-4 years is where I'm at right now. Legit, I think we might get D4 before Reforged is fixed. And I want to be wrong about this, but blogs like this one - as good as their plans might sound - only make me more convinced that I'm not.
Warcraft 3 Reforged - Coming 28th January 2020;
Warcraft 3 Reforged Custom Campaigns - Not coming soon, not even Blizzard soon;

On a more serious note. I like to be an optimist here, and hoping that Custom Campaigns and Profiles will be here in December, and enough bugs fixed a few months later. It might not seem realistic, but I like to be an optimist. Till then Blizzard ain't gonna get a dime from me. That won't change anything, but it'll make me feel better.
 
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Honestly, when it comes to custom games, the aggressive we-reserve-all-your-IP-and-moral-rights just in case you are the second coming of DotA is really off-putting.
Even if editor gets better I'm not sure if I would return to w3 mapping.
With how Activision treats its aquisitions and partners I am also inclined to read any agreement it the most overreaching way possible. If it looks like it might be a mine, assume its a whole minefield, with pillboxes behind that conspicuous bush for good measure.

The custom games playerbase may recover but I am sceptical on how many mappers that have left would come back while the legal situation is so hostile, even if effort is put into improving the tooling.

Blizzard also has this agressive e-sports ambition (that is imploding as far as i can tell.., but they still push it to reassure investors).
As such focusing on competitive PvP makes a lot of sense. (which is sad)
 
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All the mappers I've seen leave left because of how badly Blizzard is handling the desync problems and all the rest of it.
Hahaha that is very true, and but even with the condition that they put in the current editor. Nobody dares to do something good, Blizzard did not take the opportunity when Dota was at the top, she thought it was one more map and in the end she lost her gold mine.

Honestly, when it comes to custom games, the aggressive we-reserve-all-your-IP-and-moral-rights just in case you are the second coming of DotA is really off-putting.
I do not doubt that a Dota with great characteristics is coming, and I am not talking about another X map that Blizzard thinks will appear. DracoLich is doing a good job with the current map, but of course Blizzard does not seem to care about the possibilities that can be done with its World Editor, who prefer to focus more on the competitive than the Editor, which is the base of the community that still continues to support much of the game.

But what if Profiles are a completely separate update meant to come after ladders? I'm not joking here - this could mean that custom campaigns or custom games/editor updates might not come until 2022. I know that I might seem like an extreme pessimist, but when it comes to Reforged, I've learned to not expect much.
It is most likely, their priorities are others apparently, but if at least they gave the indication that they are fixing the editor, so that at least the old maps are not broken in the current version it would be a very good SIGN.
Rather, they even removed features of the old Editor that the current one does not have, its versatility. I hope the Competitive community helps the game progress, because if it goes wrong, the Classic ones will forget about Reforged like Blizzard did with HotS
 
Level 12
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Wow, this is actually something of substance. I've completely lost any hope or faith in this project, but this is still much better than the shit they've been putting out lately. Kudos where they're due.

Let's be honest here, who is going to create the next big custom game that Blizzard will grab? It's the same EULA as SC2 has had for 10 years and that game has seen some pretty huge projects.
All the mappers I've seen leave left because of how badly Blizzard is handling the desync problems and all the rest of it.

Well, the problem is the reason nobody will ever make the "next big custom game" for either SC2 or Refunded is precisely because of the EULA. If I have what I think is a million-dollar idea, I'm taking it somewhere else where it's actually appreciate and in my control.
 
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It might not seem realistic, but I like to be an optimist.
Generally I prefer to be somewhere between realistic and optimistic, but in Reforged's case... There's this saying: "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" and I already got fooled by Reforged once, so screw that - I'd rather be positively surprised than disappointed again.
 
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Well, the problem is the reason nobody will ever make the "next big custom game" for either SC2 or Refunded is precisely because of the EULA. If I have what I think is a million-dollar idea, I'm taking it somewhere else where it's actually appreciate and in my control.
You are quite disillusional that you think popular mups are created being popular. No. You have some idea that you slowly work on and update, and is gathering bigger and bigger comunity over time to the point where you decide to make a standalone game and the community that played your map is going to play your game. That's how dota rose up.

So it's quite possible someone will create it, because you don't control it's popularity, the community does.
 
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You are quite disillusional that you think popular mups are created being popular. No. You have some idea that you slowly work on and update, and is gathering bigger and bigger comunity over time to the point where you decide to make a standalone game and the community that played your map is going to play your game. That's how dota rose up.

So it's quite possible someone will create it, because you don't control it's popularity, the community does.
It's all well and good to say that, but to maintain and develop a popular map can take a lot of time and having this fundemental issues that you do not own your work is not good for motivation.

Have you actually read this thing: Custom Game Acceptable Use Policy - Blizzard Legal ?
Like actualy read all of it?
In paragraph 1 alone every single sentence is Blizz screwing you over royaly. You give up any and all rights. You agree to undertake affirmative action to conform to blizzard directives. You allow blizzard to nuke all you created and penalize your blizz account.

Also, it has several paragraphs to limit making any sort of income from the map (there is a provision that blizz could allow you to, but why would they, they already own it, they can literally copy-paste what you did, stuff it full of loot-boxes and you could do jack shit about it. with activisions track record this is the sort of behavior I expect and would be very surprised to see anything different).

So tell me, how long do you think somebody will maintain and develop a map on average before either getting boored or having to set it aside for actualy making money doing a "real" job?
For a map to get and stay popular it needs some effort to fine-tune the balance and add content so that players do not get boored. A second dota won't come if the moment somebody has a popular enough map that it could conveivably help support the mapper financially they do a google search and find out they were royally screwed befor ethey even begun.
If you are alreayd boxed in and surrounded from all sides before you interact with your "partner" then why even bother? Why put in more effort simply to get ripped off even more?
I bet several popular maps that had potential to rival Dota have already been created, but nobody has the motivation to proceed and polish their creations to that stage because it is a lot of work and in the case of success all that will happen is that they will get ripped off.

Remember, we are talking about the company that shamelessly, openly, leverages nostalgia and enthusiasm of their employees to suppress wages. Why would you, an anonymous mapper be treated any better? What would prevent Blizz for exercising the rights they have with great intent layed out and published and forced you to agree to?

A toy map may be created regardless, but for it to be maintained and developed to the point of being worth something in this toxic environment is something that is far more unlikely now, than it was when Blizzard still had decency, when their moral compass still had a true "north".
This is not the Blizzard of old, this is Activision with a French subsidiary that has valuable IP to be exploited, and exploited it shall be. Activision never had a moral compass and never will, this they take every chance they get to demonstrate.

A new Dota will never happen because the very legal clauses that anticipate it also ensure that nobody will have the motivation to carry through.

How very quaint that you think me disillusional yet cannot comprehend these simple truths.
 

deepstrasz

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*bored.

First, maps are for hobbies not supposed to get you cash. This is where such greedy thoughts plague the gaming communities and from something like HiveWorkshop where you can find tons of models/resources for free you degenerate into a NetEase type of platform where things people haven't made themselves are stolen and sold.
Second, you can always put an account out there for people to donate to you if they want to. That's legal.
Third, I have no knowledge of Blizzard ripping off any map author to create their own game.
A new Dota will never happen because the very legal clauses that anticipate it also ensure that nobody will have the motivation to carry through.
That's a fallacy. There are numerous AoS games out there and neither Blizzard, Riot Games, nor Valve can bring them down.
 
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*bored.

First, maps are for hobbies not supposed to get you cash. This is where such greedy thoughts plague the gaming communities and from something like HiveWorkshop where you can find tons of models/resources for free you degenerate into a NetEase type of platform where things people haven't made themselves are stolen and sold.
Second, you can always put an account out there for people to donate to you if they want to. That's legal.
Third, I have no knowledge of Blizzard ripping off any map author to create their own game.

That's a fallacy. There are numerous AoS games out there and neither Blizzard, Riot Games, nor Valve can bring them down.

First of all, stop it with the other-dota bullshit, dota is just an example of a popular game with significant commercial viability, neither I for Blizz care for the exact genre in this context. The next-dota will not be dota-but-named-differently.

You might as well say that all games should be made for fun and not profit. All games should be free? Perhaps we would not have the abusive AAA game publishers then, but we also would not have a wide variety of excellent well polished games to enjoy, that entire teams of excellent artists, designers and programmers have spent years crafting and polishing for our enjoyment. Money makes the world go round, and to bar mappers from monetisation will inevitably lead to fewer, often less polished games.
In the games industry at large there is an entire marketplace for reusable software, and art assets that works reasonably well in ensuring that the profits from games sales and other monetisation reach those who create the assets and systems that you reuse as well.

Monetisation does not have to mean loot-box. Blizzard could, if they gave a fly's shit about mappers implement many different monetisation schemes to support creators.
* For instance something like an opt-in subscription akin to youtube premium where the subscription would be split between blizzard and creators of maps you played most often this month. Making a high quality, popular map would be naturally the best rewarded and there would be no need for mtx bullshit to get it done either.
* Alternatively for the MTX addicts, which blizzard is definitely one of (*caugh* overwatch), they could institute some system for allowing visuals-only purchaces, bless this, set some sane guidelines and limits and just slap a service fee on top (so that blizz financial is also happy).
There are tons of different (better than the bullshit i just came up with on the spot) ways to enable monetisation of w3 (and SC2) maps that would encourage both mapper participation and be unintrusive for players who do dot choose to engage with these systems.

Also, w3 maps could have been made easier to convert to SC2, but blizz simply didn't care, thus SC2 arcade was almost dead and filled with 1/10th finished conversions of w3 maps for years.

Burying your head in the sand and pretendiing that the world works on distilled sunshine will not help anybody. If you want high quality, maintained maps then providing some sort of financial incentives will help guarantee this. It would help elevate mapping from a past-time activity to something people could viably do full time, to deticate themselves fully to mapping and bring us the best w3 maps that can be. This cannot happen in the current ecosystem. If a mapper wants to do this full time, then inevitably they will have to take into account how to make a living out of this hobby-turned-work, and currently the answer is to move on to a game studio or to create stand-alone games.

Blizzard has had for the past 18 years the opportunity to BE the marketplace, to BE the platform, to provide valuable services to game creators while simultaneously enabling and entire new industry on their turf and terms, to make money by enabling others to make money and all the while enforcing control to ensure all of this is done in a uniform and acceptable manner. They have done none of this. They have squandered the possibilities of warcraft 3 by letting it rot for more than 10 years and leaving the creators who keep their platform alive to wither in the storm.

If we want Warcraft3 mapping to revive then blizzard needs to be so hostile to gasp people actually making a living catering to their playerbase, and people need to get ovet this money-is-evil bullshit mentality.
Not only map-makers but those who create and provide assets and systems that our games rely upon need to be able to make a living off of their work as well if we want the mapping scene to thrive. This cannot happen when everybody is stuck in the mentality that everything must be free. At the very least a serious discussion needs to happen on what monetisation mechanisms are available for mapping tools and resources and what would be acceptable.
 

deepstrasz

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You might as well say that all games should be made for fun and not profit. All games should be free?
Not at all. We are using a game to make stuff with it. It's like you're going in someone's workshop using that person's tools, space, paying rent only once and then expecting to use the place indefinitely and also sell the stuff you're making with that person's materials.
Money makes the world go round, and to bar mappers from monetisation will inevitably lead to fewer, often less polished games.
Maybe you meant to say less maps?
In the games industry at large there is an entire marketplace for reusable software, and art assets that works reasonably well in ensuring that the profits from games sales and other monetisation reach those who create the assets and systems that you reuse as well.
That's different. If you're using a type of engine and marketplace like that of Unity, then yes. It's not the same with Blizzard's game editors.
Monetisation does not have to mean loot-box. Blizzard could, if they gave a fly's shit about mappers implement many different monetisation schemes to support creators.
That's not their business. It wouldn't come without headaches. You have then to do proper quality control, ensure your content creators don't steal, rip other works, use copyrighted stuff without a license, so on.
* For instance something like an opt-in subscription akin to youtube premium where the subscription would be split between blizzard and creators of maps you played most often this month. Making a high quality, popular map would be naturally the best rewarded and there would be no need for mtx bullshit to get it done either.
I don't think it's that simple as with YouTube. I don't know how exactly YT works but maybe it has proper contracts and systems to avoid lawsuits and take care of copyright infringement themselves.
I think you need to know the US law to adequately and formally write a suggestions letter to them about it.
Also, w3 maps could have been made easier to convert to SC2, but blizz simply didn't care, thus SC2 arcade was almost dead and filled with 1/10th finished conversions of w3 maps for years.
I'm not quite sure about this. Currently, the conversion only works for .w3x files, melee maps of a max of 128x128 size.
Plus, it's not just the terrain but you also have to consider the systems which aren't yet fully implemented. Again, it works best for melee. Custom games/maps is an entire different situation especially when you have to consider custom script, resources (models, icons and their file extension formats) and custom Object Data that needs to be properly translated.
If a mapper wants to do this full time, then inevitably they will have to take into account how to make a living out of this hobby-turned-work, and currently the answer is to move on to a game studio or to create stand-alone games.
Again, you are having high sky dreams. Many YouTube "content" creators are filthy parasites. I really don't see this good for a society. You'd help people out more if you'd be a doctor, lawyer, fireman, policeman, chef or anything that actually works to help people in any meaningful and real way. Getting paid for a lame map due to number of plays (YouTube views) might appeal to you but it's freedom of degeneracy.
They have done none of this. They have squandered the possibilities of warcraft 3 by letting it rot for more than 10 years and leaving the creators who keep their platform alive to wither in the storm.
I don't think you know better than their marketing experts. They take all sorts of things into account, number of players, number of mappers, possibilities of marketing, competition like Unity, many, many factors and viability over time (does such an investment give the necessary results in the future?).
If we want Warcraft3 mapping to revive then blizzard needs to be so hostile to gasp people actually making a living catering to their playerbase, and people need to get ovet this money-is-evil bullshit mentality.
Wishful thinking and no, it's not about the money itself, it's about the people abusing it.
Not only map-makers but those who create and provide assets and systems that our games rely upon need to be able to make a living off of their work as well if we want the mapping scene to thrive.
I can bet that HiveWorkshop would have been pretty deserted if it was such a platform, even as an official Blizzard partner.
 
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Not at all. We are using a game to make stuff with it. It's like you're going in someone's workshop using that person's tools, space, paying rent only once and then expecting to use the place indefinitely and also sell the stuff you're making with that person's materials.
Since when did i say that? I repeatedly suggest ways in which blizzard can share on this revenue. furthermore this section was not even about mapping in particular but just general context about how the games industry works.

Maybe you meant to say less maps?
This section was about the games industry again, but it applies just as well to maps, which is in fact the entire point. We currently expect mappers to provide services for free that are compensated for in the industry.

That's different. If you're using a type of engine and marketplace like that of Unity, then yes. It's not the same with Blizzard's game editors.
Unity incidentaly has this tightly integrated but that does not mean that tight integration is key or in fact relevant at all. It is quite common to commission artists or subcontractors to create assets for a "real" game just as it is common to buy certain common assets from a marketplace. The nature of the game engine is completely irrelevant to the discussion here. This entire paragraph is to highlight the difference in mindset where capitalism works to reward all that contribute to making standalone games, but for warcraft maps everything is expected to be free.

That's not their business. It wouldn't come without headaches. You have then to do proper quality control, ensure your content creators don't steal, rip other works, use copyrighted stuff without a license, so on.
When it comes to plagiarism, that is exacltly what the DMCA safe harbor provisions are for. just take it down on complaint.
Quality control, like they did for Warcraft 3 Reforged. Yeah like they care about that. And shitty maps would just not get played often if people care and this would ultimately self-regulate. If you want to earn more you fix your shit.
Legal issues, like using lootbox-infested on-way-to-be-reclassifed-as-gambling monetisation schemes (currently actively being discussed in UK pariliament). Yeah I don't see how being legally shy is any way relevant here. But even if this was the case Blizzard excels at legalese, surely underlining a few of the already-existing pragraphs in the eula about not being responsible for anything for any reason. Compelling the mapper to refund any mtx that blizz blocks and legally deflecting responsibility should mostly rounds stuff out.

I don't think it's that simple as with YouTube. I don't know how exactly YT works but maybe it has proper contracts and systems to avoid lawsuits and take care of copyright infringement themselves.
I think you need to know the US law to adequately and formally write a suggestions letter to them about it.
What is your fascination with YouTube? This is just a random subscription for extra features example but all your counters are specific to how you dont like youtubes implementation and not the concept itself.
But yes, YouTube does license some music from artists (or publishers) for example. There are also Legal safe-harbors YouTube agressively takes advantage of that shield it from direct copyright infringement claims in the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. That is to say, so long as you dont know, and could not be reasonably expected to know you are fine so long as you comply with a takedown notice.

I'm not quite sure about this. Currently, the conversion only works for .w3x files, melee maps of a max of 128x128 size.
Plus, it's not just the terrain but you also have to consider the systems which aren't yet fully implemented. Again, it works best for melee. Custom games/maps is an entire different situation especially when you have to consider custom script, resources (models, icons and their file extension formats) and custom Object Data that needs to be properly translated.
When designing the SC2 scripting environment they could have taken compatibility with w3 into account (It was clear as day that custom maps were what kept w3 alive even back then!), they did not do so.
They could have provided a utility to translate w3 map scripts to sc2 (transpile + compatibility library for instance). they again chose not to do so. (yes it could have been 99% correct only but still saved a lot of work for mappers and helped sc2 arcade off the ground)
They could have enabled their map conversion utility to handle cliffs and ramps. They chose not to.
They have no fundemental reason to limit map size other than not having a use for melee maps of greater size, they chose to unnecessarilty constrain maps anyway.
Honestly file formats are the least of the worry, Something liek mechanicaly translating a model file from one format to another may be tedious but is not that hard. Icons? comon, this is a few days work, its pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Again, you are having high sky dreams. Many YouTube "content" creators are filthy parasites. I really don't see this good for a society. You'd help people out more if you'd be a doctor, lawyer, fireman, policeman, chef or anything that actually works to help people in any meaningful and real way. Getting paid for a lame map due to number of plays (YouTube views) might appeal to you but it's freedom of degeneracy.
.. so..
some youtubers are clickbaity/have low quality content ergo warcraft mapping is worthless and you shoudl just do it for free you scum or be a doctor and get a "real" job.
Yeah, WTF man. you are making so many logical leaps here i cant even keep count. You are basically discounting all of entertainment as having no benefit and everybody should just work for free because you can't be bothered to pay for shit. That is EXACTLY WHY scummy free-to-start and MTX hellhole mobile games are all the rage. because people are to stingy to pay for other peoples work and so to make ends meet people had to rely on these scummy tricks (which turned out to be unexpectedly profitable so now everybody does it and who cares about game quality, if addicted whales bankroll your entire endeavor)

I don't think you know better than their marketing experts. They take all sorts of things into account, number of players, number of mappers, possibilities of marketing, competition like Unity, many, many factors and viability over time (does such an investment give the necessary results in the future?).
LOL, You are killing me. really.
Those "experts" that try to turn overwatch into an e-sport, kill the actual league that already existed because they are control freaks and think e-sports should work like IRL sports with teams based in cities and all that. Their incompetency is blatantly obvious for all to see and killing blizz earnings as we speak. I do not feel that these "experts" have any value at all in this conversation as they keep demonstrating their complete lack of expertise.

With regards to unity and such. Warcraft has a significant advantage in that there are already basic game mechanics and UI built in. For instance unit command, spells, attack and defence, basic unit AI. This maks warcraft mapping easier to get started with for certain types of gameplay. Also, this is 2020, but the opportunity has been around since 2002. (actually with Starctaft 1 even earlier). With every year as standalone tooling becomes ever better blizzard is losing their competitive advantage in this area.
Also, blizzard has the advantage that Warcraft 3 is already widely installed and has a lot of content to keep people engaged. By being the gateway to new content blizzard is in an excellent position to profit off of this unique (in 2002) situation.
By mis-aligning their expected profit-centers(esports) with the mapping community, they are leading the very aspect that keeps w3 alive to slowly dwindle. In the end they will have neither profits not players, but a huge expensive bill on tournament expenses so that they can show off to investors "see, we got esport scene, will make killing hopefully in 20 years"

Wishful thinking and no, it's not about the money itself, it's about the people abusing it.
So because some people abuse the system, we should have no professional mapping scene?
You are shutting down the conversation before it can even happen here. You see 1 issue and jump to "this is a dead cause" without giving it a second thought.
Just because there are problems does not mean that the concept itself is soem alien thing that cannot be made to work. And if we want good, new maps going forward we need to at least try. Free lunch can only go on for so long before somebody has to pick up the bill, and mappers aint got infinite money. If they can't make money on w3 they will move elsewhere. This is what you are advocating for.

I can bet that HiveWorkshop would have been pretty deserted if it was such a platform, even as an official Blizzard partner.
Again you jump to unreasonable conclusions.
I never expressed that hiveworkshop should be a platform for anything
All i suggested is that there is value in having a conversation about how to allow for properly financially compensating people for the hard work that ehy have put in.

It could be hiveworkshop, it could be some other site, it could even be blizzard, and it could be any number of schemes from outright buying perpetual use rights to some revenue sharing to what have you. There are hundreds of ways this coudl be done, by any of dosens of interested parties, many of which would be viable.
Why is it that you jump to the least viable possible solution and instantly pronounce the entire concept dead?

Congratulations, you have killed a straw-man. Did you spot the army storming your little village from the other entrance..? no? thought so.

It just doesnt pay to work on w3 maps. People are growing up. for many mappers this is no longer a sink for their ample free time, income needs to be earned and if warcraft maps wont provide it then warcraft maps don't get their time. You cannot live in a capitalist system and ignore basic market forces. You cannot even live in "communist" system and ignore market forces! (Soviet union tried and collapsed, china is secretly capitalist for decades now)
No doubt you will find 1000 things wrong with everything that I say. It honestly doesn't even matter. No cash = fewer mappers, it's that simple. How is this not obvious? Don Quijote calls you to join his crusade against windmills, may you have great success in shattering modern fiscal realities.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
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15,534
You are basically discounting all of entertainment as having no benefit and everybody should just work for free because you can't be bothered to pay for shit.
No I mean, make games, don't expect payment by using someone else's game. You'd like to compare mapping with the pro ladder scene. Well, they made few contests for mappers. But you expect more than a pool to be won, you expect a salary of sorts.
Honestly, I don't think Warcraft III/StarCraft II paid maps/resources would have stopped the nowadays crap of microtransactions and pay to win games.
Also, the community for the above mentioned games is so small and was smaller than the rest of the gaming world that it wouldn't have made that much difference outside these communities.
Those "experts" that try to turn overwatch into an e-sport, kill the actual league that already existed because they are control freaks and think e-sports should work like IRL sports with teams based in cities and all that. Their incompetency is blatantly obvious for all to see and killing blizz earnings as we speak. I do not feel that these "experts" have any value at all in this conversation as they keep demonstrating their complete lack of expertise.
You're saying Blizzard (which works under daddy Activision) is on its way to bankruptcy? But they got phones too.
By mis-aligning their expected profit-centers(esports) with the mapping community, they are leading the very aspect that keeps w3 alive to slowly dwindle. In the end they will have neither profits not players, but a huge expensive bill on tournament expenses so that they can show off to investors "see, we got esport scene, will make killing hopefully in 20 years"
Well, I guess it could work two ways, where they and the map/mod authors would earn on sales and whatnot. Maybe, if they ultimately decide to turn the Galaxy/World Editor into a sort of Unity or engine or whatever, it could work out decently. Maybe even platforms like Steam will get less attention. Yeah right. Now, if you could use the engine to create external/stand alone products and release them on Steam, well...
Just because there are problems does not mean that the concept itself is soem alien thing that cannot be made to work. And if we want good, new maps going forward we need to at least try. Free lunch can only go on for so long before somebody has to pick up the bill, and mappers aint got infinite money. If they can't make money on w3 they will move elsewhere. This is what you are advocating for.
As I mentioned, mapping and modding games is a hobby nothing more. You want it so that people could take the short way to earning money.
Sure, the system ain't perfect but it in no way is comparable with making your own game and selling it. I can hear you compare it to digital audio workstations where you only pay for the software and then you can sell the products made with it. Well, truth be told, you can't expect a musician to code and create their instruments to make that music and sell it. Similarly, coders don't reinvent the wheel, they use known techniques and tricks to make their own game. However with stuff like game editors like WcIII's and SCII's, you basically make the musician sort of not even entirely make the music but use loops and samples instead of musical notes.
So, while I respect your enthusiasm, rather, a bit fanaticism, my point is not leaning towards business in such a way as you want it.
The system not only can be but will be abused. The AAAs are already doing it themselves. What will stop the peasantry from doing it too?
How would your map work as a business model, huh? Would you sell it numerous times after each update? Would you find ways to lock parts of it (like Blizzard does with their newer games) until players will pay for those parts to be unlocked? Should I trust you won't use any sorts of dopamine rush microtransactions? Maybe you'll make an inbuilt casino (auction house anyone?)?
What I'm saying is, it's enough we have officially released games with such marketing strategies. The last we need is plaguing the Warcraft III community with that.
Why is it that you jump to the least viable possible solution and instantly pronounce the entire concept dead?
Because if something can go wrong it will.
Why are you for instance not satisfied with Pateron/donations? What makes things so much different in that people would pay you more if your idea is a reality than what I suggested?
It just doesnt pay to work on w3 maps. People are growing up. for many mappers this is no longer a sink for their ample free time, income needs to be earned and if warcraft maps wont provide it then warcraft maps don't get their time.
I really think you should be differentiating hobbies/free time from work hours. The fact that you expect income for something you work on with pleasure in your free time does not cover the whole world's concept of free time and doing things with pleasure and sharing them with others.
Heck, I'd be worried more of others selling your stuff than earning money yourself. I mean, maybe Blizzard should actually take care of that, you know?
You cannot live in a capitalist system and ignore basic market forces. You cannot even live in "communist" system and ignore market forces! (Soviet union tried and collapsed, china is secretly capitalist for decades now)
Suddenly, all this has become an economic conspiracy. Well played.
No cash = fewer mappers, it's that simple. How is this not obvious? Don Quijote calls you to join his crusade against windmills, may you have great success in shattering modern fiscal realities.
But we'll stick to great people who do it for the fun of it, not for gaining something in return or else!
I think you're being a bit too harsh on our resource creators here, those who made and make awesome stuff and don't get a penny for it. Clearly, they cannot compare to the paid grandmasters.

I'm sorry if I'm being too annoying to you but seriously, I think you're getting too dramatic over this.
 
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Here it is no longer about profit or not, mostly this community of war 3 was born simply by the fact of creating games within another, and this is present in SC 1, everything started there (In the Blizzard community, it does not take into account other communities, which accomplished greater things).
It's like Waffle posting, if blizzard's had given continuous improvements to their publisher, the community would have grown exponentially.
But also as deepstrasz commented, mostly the community started in the fan, and in the hobby, its free resources are within this forum, thanks to the fact that also the old Blizzard did not want to take possession of the creativity of the community (To get rid of copyright charges).
The problem is that Activision put an absurdity on its editor, this is what makes the current community at least not prosper. If they at least removed one or changed the clauses for the good of the mappers, it would be an appropriate support. And I do not see in the future that they will make changes to this.
 
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You are quite disillusional that you think popular mups are created being popular. No. You have some idea that you slowly work on and update, and is gathering bigger and bigger comunity over time to the point where you decide to make a standalone game and the community that played your map is going to play your game. That's how dota rose up.

So it's quite possible someone will create it, because you don't control it's popularity, the community does.
Even if nobody can control what gets big or popular, there are things you can do to greatly effect the likelihood of success or failure.
 
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The talk about the "next Dota" only factoring the editor is naive, even if they fixed the game crashes/desyncs and added what is left to have the game in the same state as pre-reforged warcraft 3. Remember all the mods that made it big, half-life counter-strike, half-life natural selection, warcraft 3 dota, quake 3 bid for power, quake 2 gloom, quake 2 vortex, quake 2 pong... etc. I know some of these wouldn't make it big, but a lot of current games are based on or have a lot of similarities to these mods. What all have in common is dedicated server software and this ties in allowing a community to be born, you could have the warcraft 3 editor of your dreams and make a great map, but the p2p multiplayer will probably kill any chance of success on the spot (single-player and turn-based games would be safe, but how many of those, or based on those, made it big? I know dota single-player clones exist but they aren't popular, turn-card-based games also come to mind but I don't know if they started as a mod of any game and I don't know if their popularity can even compare)

Just to drive home my point that the editor is not that important when talking about the "next Dota", some of these mods aren't that complex if you think about it, counter-strike is not that advanced, the most important work tends to go into the design of the levels, not the mechanics, now imagine if counter-strike was only single-player or the multiplayer was p2p based and some player had to host a game every time... nearly no one would play it

Remember in SC2 custom multiplayer (which is free) Blizzard actively tries to hide who is hosting by having the lobbies already "created", like presets of custom games, and there is no way of checking who is the host, and the only way I know, is when he leaves mid-game and some host changing shenanigans happen, also I think there is no way to check your latency in-game (correct me if I'm wrong here), who plays a game like this?
Even with the "more powerful" SC2 editor I know of 0 SC2 popular multiplayer custom maps, the most popular SC2 mods are single-player
 
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deepstrasz

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The talk about the "next Dota" only factoring the editor is naive, even if they fixed the game crashes/desyncs and added what is left to have the game in the same state as pre-reforged warcraft 3. Remember all the mods that made it big, half-life counter-strike, half-life natural selection, warcraft 3 dota, quake 3 bid for power, quake 2 gloom, quake 2 vortex, quake 2 pong... etc.
I haven't heard of any of those except for Counter-Strike and DotA. Also, wasn't Counter-Strike an official mod anyway?
Not sure what popular actually means. I mean if it means some people play it. That can basically be said about some Warcraft III maps. Sure CS and DotA have tons of players. Don't know about the other stuff you mentioned.
 
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But we'll stick to great people who do it for the fun of it, not for gaining something in return or else!
I think you're being a bit too harsh on our resource creators here, those who made and make awesome stuff and don't get a penny for it. Clearly, they cannot compare to the paid grandmasters.
2 mapmakers:
1st remembers dota's success, he makes his mind, wasting evenings with editor, learning, leveling up, reching new stuff, dreaming of success and making his map masterpiece.
2nd remembers new EULA and the fact he will never have anything from that map, even in case of giant success (lol) , so he has less motivation and less time for editing. He'd rather go into something he can at least claim as his own.

guess what, if you had 50/50 before, you'll have 10/90 now, means quality still drops, and there are no way to motivate people to go beyond limits.
The more walls you put, the less people go through, thats a fact. blizzard put a fucking la Ligne Maginot over wc3 development.
 

deepstrasz

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The more walls you put, the less people go through, thats a fact. blizzard put a fucking la Ligne Maginot over wc3 development.
I don't think the idea of Warcraft III was to be developed. It was supposed to be a game that had a map making tool. People pushed it further with mods and creative ideas around the game's original code.
I think the only downside of the EULA is with maps. Icons, models can't be put under it since they're externally made.
But again, the idea wasn't for people to make games out of maps. That happened with DotA, later with Element TD.
By the way, I think the law issues were only related to DotA. Element TD got away with it :D

I mean look, there was even a flash Element TD made by someone else than the original map authors:
Flash Element TD - Wikipedia
Here it doesn't even say who made it: Element TD 2 - Multiplayer Tower Defense on Steam but mentions "its" history from Warcraft III to StarCraft II and DotA 2. Nothing of the flash game though. Alright, there was a link to their official site or something: Element Studios - Team OK, so it looks like the original dudes are there, lol, even one Romanian in the team.

So, I guess, Acti-Blizz's EULA counts as much as a piece of paper you'd write something on and expect me to respect what's written without signing it with my own hand.
 
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For Activision it did not prevent them from putting the absurd clauses in the editor. This error of controlling map mods in the community is what killed SC2.
I forgot about that, but yeah that's another nail in the coffin

I haven't heard of any of those except for Counter-Strike and DotA. Also, wasn't Counter-Strike an official mod anyway?
Not sure what popular actually means. I mean if it means some people play it. That can basically be said about some Warcraft III maps. Sure CS and DotA have tons of players. Don't know about the other stuff you mentioned.
Counter-strike was bought later by Valve. There are several mods from the quake 1/2/3 and half-life 1/2 era that would spawn or inspire full blown games, like team fortress
 

deepstrasz

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Counter-strike was bought later by Valve. There are several mods from the quake 1/2/3 and half-life 1/2 era that would spawn or inspire full blown games, like team fortress
Sure. But there the difference is that those people were hired and the rights acquired: Counter-Strike (video game) - Wikipedia Imagine that, those modders had rights.

As for Team Fortress, it looks like it was initially a Quake mod: Team Fortress Classic - Wikipedia Here, Valve hired those who worked on the original Team Fortress mod as well.

This is somewhat compared to how MindWorX worked on WEX and was hired by Blizzard to work with the Classic team.
 
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