Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update – Ranked Play

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you dont need icons, models etc for your standalone game. you don't need anything but the concept of the game.
but you need your ground to not be sued by multibillionare company with long-term impotency
and new eula takes that ground right away from under your feet

element TD went fine because it is tens times smaller thing than Dota. Remember the biggest prize pool in history of gaming? With brocken back blizzard let those halfings to live, it would cost them much more to sue than potential owning.

Im not saying other corps do better. Im saying blizzard went from good to worse in a few steps, and there are nothing to fix it. Not at all.
 

deepstrasz

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you dont need icons, models etc for your standalone game. you don't need anything but the concept of the game.
but you need your ground to not be sued by multibillionare company with long-term impotency
Ideas are not copyrightable: What Does Copyright Protect? (FAQ) | U.S. Copyright Office
Im not saying other corps do better. Im saying blizzard went from good to worse in a few steps, and there are nothing to fix it. Not at all.
I don't deny that the move against DotA was of bad character. It will forever be engraved on their foreheads.
But I think the issue there wasn't on concept but on the name which is copyrightable as a trademark.
https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ33.pdf
 
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yeah, thats right
if I put "deepstrasz" as a heroname for my map you automatically can sue me.. but cannot get rights for my map. you will only sue me because I used your brand to make map more appropiatable for users who know you.
meanwhile blizzard tried to put it the way 'they used our names so this game is ours', which is pure bullshit
 

deepstrasz

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meanwhile blizzard tried to put it the way 'they used our names so this game is ours', which is pure bullshit
First, Riot Games (well a subsidiary) sued Valve for filing a trademark claim (necessary to get the franchise legally going). Riot Games sold the DotA-Allstars, LLC (Limited liability company - Wikipedia) to Blizzard (lol) and Blizzard continued the lawsuit. And of course, the Chinese being their communist selves, uCool released a game with DotA characters and declared DotA was a open source collective work (with emphasis on collective :D) and that it could not be copyrighted.

The story can be read here: Dota 2 - Wikipedia
The fact is they fought for a name.
 
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Personally, I could consider buying Reforged if they fixed the performance and added some actual Editor changes (something I wanted from the start). But looking at the snail-pace of progress now, I remain skeptical. Besides...

Games like Reforged bring a ... moral question, I guess. Should we buy the products of a company like this? Should we support such business model, when companies blatantly lie? Make a mountain of promises, but then fail at simply releasing a working game? Should we support a remaster that is still worse than original half a year after release?

Even if this DOES actually become good after a few more years, I will have doubts about paying money to a company like Blizzard.
 

deepstrasz

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Even if this DOES actually become good after a few more years, I will have doubts about paying money to a company like Blizzard.
I think you should pay when the game is actually ready.
Now, depends what you mean by paying or for what since basically you're still buying the graphics overhaul (which you can do just now) since Classic patches are free if you have the original game.
 
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2 mapmakers:
1st remembers dota's success, he makes his mind, wasting evenings with editor, learning, leveling up, reching new stuff, dreaming of success and making his map masterpiece.
2nd remembers new EULA and the fact he will never have anything from that map, even in case of giant success (lol) , so he has less motivation and less time for editing. He'd rather go into something he can at least claim as his own.

guess what, if you had 50/50 before, you'll have 10/90 now, means quality still drops, and there are no way to motivate people to go beyond limits.
The more walls you put, the less people go through, thats a fact. blizzard put a fucking la Ligne Maginot over wc3 development.

It is more honest to say that people don't mod because they are mad about Reforged, not because of the EULA/Custom Game Policy which already had that clause atleast by 2017.
 
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I hope the guys at Blizzard will get some true enlightenment, not that of the industrial age, thus bringing us the true transcendence of Warcraft III.
I'd rather they returned us the Old n Gold original Warcraft 3 and left it well alone. The game was a masterpiece, but sadly it fell prey to the greed, immorality and complete uncaring - all the qualities that seem to plague every Video Game company, that gets big enough. The way Blizzard is now, I'd rather they left every good franchise alone.

And frankly, neither Blizzard, nor other large companies will change their foul ways unless they hit rock bottom. But that can only happen through joint effort of consumers actually beginning to boycott garbage products.
 

deepstrasz

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I'd rather they returned us the Old n Gold original Warcraft 3 and left it well alone. The game was a masterpiece, but sadly it fell prey to the greed, immorality and complete uncaring - all the qualities that seem to plague every Video Game company, that gets big enough. The way Blizzard is now, I'd rather they left every good franchise alone.
The good side is that it's one of those games that hasn't lost its original multiplayer server(s).
I guess every dev has a nutjob going. I guess they thought it was a better idea to change all the visuals of the menus and whatnot not only for the Classic version. I don't think they did that because of greed but because of an urge of expressing oneself as they did with the Reforged models.
And frankly, neither Blizzard, nor other large companies will change their foul ways unless they hit rock bottom.
Some people never change. Also, hitting rock bottom would probably mean no turning back at all->dead game (at least from an official standpoint).
 
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The story can be read here: Dota 2 - Wikipedia
The fact is they fought for a name.

That was Blizzard's big mistake, ever since LoL was released, they must have taken on the importance of the All-Star community. It was a map based on one of their editors, they usually just said they only admired the Map. At least I establish marketing ties, and talk to its creators to further polish their game and feed back the community. It was easy, but they decided on the longest path, creating their own Moba and forgetting about Warcraft 3. But The Valve was more cunning.
And what bothers them is that they never paid attention to the mapper community. Maps like Castle TD, FOC, Warlock, Green TD, DON, Legion TD, Impossible Bosses, TcX, etc. Several of these maps, due to their popularity, created their own games.
 
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I imagine they unified reforged and classic menu implementations to save on maintainence time and cost going forward. Annoying but pretty expected.
 
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That's my point: Reforged arrived (january), now we all shit on the EULA to this day. Before all this, there was little to no concern. I remember a chinese dude back in 2018 asking me about it and making serious posts here. His posts didn't spawn reddit posts, youtube videos, and endless threads about the EULA. So is all this generalized "modding not worth it now" because of the EULA or because of how bad Reforged is?
 
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What? How does that mean having your own game?
Several of these maps, due to their popularity, created their own games.
As I said several of these maps have achieved their own standalone game, such as Element TD and Legion TD for their popularity, I did not say all the maps I mention. But I'm going for the fact that the creators moved to other platforms, and they no longer need the help of the World Editor. This is how the War 3 community is ending.
 

deepstrasz

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As I said several of these maps had their own game made as Element TD and Legion TD because of their popularity, I did not say all the maps I mention. But I'm going for the fact that the creators moved to other platforms, and they no longer need the help of the World Editor. This is how the War 3 community is ending.
Ah, sorry.
Well, I don't think the community is ending because of that. Good for them. Some come, some go, some stay.
 
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Well, I don't think the community is ending because of that. Good for them. Some come, some go, some stay.
The good thing that all those maps were born in War 3, now they have their independent games, that's what many yearn for, good for them as you say.
An important detail is that long ago, a way was discovered to substantially improve the maps and bring them to the level of these games (Obtaining new functions and modifications), but Blizzard eliminated that trick, since that time, I saw the great ability of the Editor of War 3, which can not only simulate mechanics from other games, but also the ability to adapt to recent times, and only using a 2003 engine.
Unfortunately Classic Games in the recent patches broke many maps, and worse still in Reforged there are too many Bugs.
And so it is that little by little people are forgetting about this game.
 
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I lost much of the ounce of ambition I had for making the campaign I begun.
This can be solved if Classic Game, in the subsequent patches, to correct the problem of the maps breaking, and at least give functions to export data during the game, to generate own rankings for maps. And if it is possible to include natives for servers, such as those that had Bots, to host games. With 24 players you can do great things.
 

deepstrasz

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This can be solved if Classic Game, in the subsequent patches, to correct the problem of the maps breaking, and at least give functions to export data during the game, to generate own rankings for maps. And if it is possible to include natives for servers, such as those that had Bots, to host games. With 24 players you can do great things.
Yeah... if I was making a multiplayer map, probably I'd have been even more depressed since there you have to worry about more bugs of which desyncs being the occult game breakers.
 
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First, Riot Games (well a subsidiary) sued Valve for filing a trademark claim (necessary to get the franchise legally going). Riot Games sold the DotA-Allstars, LLC (Limited liability company - Wikipedia) to Blizzard (lol) and Blizzard continued the lawsuit. And of course, the Chinese being their communist selves, uCool released a game with DotA characters and declared DotA was a open source collective work (with emphasis on collective :D) and that it could not be copyrighted.

The story can be read here: Dota 2 - Wikipedia
The fact is they fought for a name.

TL/DR: Valve - Blizzard was regarding a trademark that was filled shadily about the name "DOTA"; Ucool case was regarding copyrights regarding the game DOTA. The decisions and debate don't follow the same reasoning as trademarks are not akin to copyrights.


I hate being the obnoxious law dude that no one listens but i think you will listen me deepstrasz as you atleast listen to what others have to say on a regular basis.
Blizzard/RIOT and Valve case was in respect of a trademark, in this case a name: "DOTA". A trademark is not akin to our more convenient copyrights, this meaning that a trademark is NOT a copyright regarding a name or denomination. A trademark is just a piece of information (ie. a slogan, a name, an icon) that helps consumers identify products, granting the claimer of it (ie. the company that obtains the registration) some rights to exploit such information on the commerce while baring anyother doing so. One could say that the keyword for understanding trademarks is "commercialize". Copyrights, for most countries, born with the creation of the work (ie. you create a game that you called Dota) and belong to the material author barring some exceptions. Now notice that trademarks recquire a more formal procedure to actually born (ie. in my country i need to register them). The only thing in common these two have is the subject (intellectual property). So in conclusion: trademark is a type of IP different from copyrights.

Can i register a trademark regarding a name? Sure (ie. McDonalds), as the limits are not related of how creative such name is but are related to the integrity of the market information, so consumers are not scammed in what they buy everyday. Plain names can't be copyrighted at all, as there is little creative span here on creating a name. Since Copyrights born the instant one creates a work, notice how fucked could be that somebody could have a monopoly over a short denomination or ideas and concepts. One thing is to name one of your original characters "Rexxar" (you will not be sued for that, atleast for copyright claims, maybe you are in for trouble if you try to confuse consumers) but other thing is to borrow the entire character from the Warcraft universe into your product (ie. your custom game, your novels) without permission. Let's say i make a game about zombies and one of the caracters is a barbarian like beastmaster that lives in Durotar called Rexxar. If i do this, the cease and desist letter will come in a week. And i would be a lazy idiot too.
Now let's think critically.
According to that Wikipedia entry, Rob Pardo said this: "the Dota name belonged to the mod's community". What we could say to this dude Pardo? Isn't he freaking wrong?
Now let's think critically again. The EULA mandates (i bet since its first version) that custom games can't be exploited commercially. If i want to register a trademark regarding the name of my custom game, understanding that a trademark is most often be used to commercialize something, am i in for some trouble or not? What if i register it in my country but i don't commercialize anything?

Ucool case is much more interesting for us. Ucool case i read years ago and i don't feel like reading it again, but bear with me. Ucool case is related to copyright law and the good news is that the judge understood that the implicated copyrights are regarding the game itself (the DOTA game, the audiovisual display we get on the screen when we play it, NOT the name). Regarding the game, the judge attributed joint ownership to Eul, Icefrog (Abdul Ismail) and, if i recall correctly, other dude called Jynzo or something. This is good news for everyone: copyright belongs to creators. Didn't i said this million times? The Judge didn't said Blizzard or Valve is the owner. You are all clear guys. This doesn't show on the Wikipedia also.
The Ucool thesis was based on random posts of Eul and Jynzo that could "implied" that they forfeited their copyrights on the game to the public domain. The judge dismissed this mostly because Icefrog didn't post anything about this topic. Remeber that DOTA is a joint creation so, naturally, if a waving of rights is to be made, it should be maded jointly. Isn't this pure common sense guys?
Thus the judge easily dismissed the Ucool theory that the DOTA (the game guys, don't focus on the name) belongs to the community. As a last resort, Ucool even said that all this was fucked up as Icefrog breached the contract with Blizzard (the EULA) by exploiting DOTA commercially (something very interesting as i mentioned above). Of course only Blizzard is the one entitled to promove such claims so this was naturally dismissed.


EDIT: Ucool case was about copyright but it wasn't the case that acknowledge potential copyright ownership over a map like Dota (and the joint works discussion). This was Blizzard v. Lilith. Enjoy.
 
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Yeah... if I was making a multiplayer map, probably I'd have been even more depressed since there you have to worry about more bugs, desyncs being the occult game breakers.
In the case of a single player just by having the functions built in the Bug Memory, within the current patch you could do anything like the battle maps made by Chinos, or also like DracoLich's Dota 1 in 1.26a.

But I don't know why Classic no longer listens to the Hive community.
 

deepstrasz

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Now let's think critically again. The EULA mandates (i bet since its first version) that custom games can't be exploited commercially. If i want to register a trademark regarding the name of my custom game, understanding that a trademark is most often be used to commercialize something, am i in for some trouble or not? What if i register it in my country but i don't commercialize anything?
Sure but it was done by one of the map's authors. It wasn't done by me, you or some bloke off the street.
other dude called Jynzo or something.
Guinsoo (Steve Feak).
Ucool even said that all this was fucked up as Icefrog breached the contract with Blizzard (the EULA) by exploiting DOTA commercially (something very interesting as i mentioned above). Of course only Blizzard is the one entitled to promove such claims so this was naturally dismissed.
You can't exploit something commercially unlawfully if you're the creator of it anyway :D

Thanks for the details.

In the case of a single player just by having the functions built in the Bug Memory, within the current patch you could do anything like the battle maps made by Chinos, or also like DracoLich's Dota 1 in 1.26a.
Well, I think they might have actually found some security breaches they didn't want to leave there, with the memory hack thing I mean.
 
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You can't exploit something commercially unlawfully if you're the creator of it anyway :D

Thanks for the details.

It could become unlawful (contractual breach) if you promised somebody (ie. Blizzard) that you won't do it (ie. by signing the EULA which says "no commercial exploitation"). But here is were lies a much harder discussion: "enforceable or not". There are lots of elements here (ie. adhesion contract), including the fact that Blizzard will most likely not even want to enforce the clause at all (ie. they said we are waving our moral rights, but in Reforged, all maps now feature a neat "Made By/Author" information that everyone can see - shouldn't it just say Made by Blizzard Entertainment LLC?), because these type of clauses just serve as power plays so they can negotiate from a better position.
If a custom game is made, and assuming it is protectable (not a dumb copy of another game/franchise), we have rights. We COULD be another Abdul Ismail (here i just mean "having copyrights" not "having valuable copyrights") if we put the work. Here i'm not talking about the code or the assets, but the games made with the Editor, the product that is clearly seen and experienced by playing it. The EULA can only make us promise things about eventually giving them those rights (this giving or "sale" is called assignment and are hardly ever free of charge) but can't attribute ownership of things they didn't create just because they write it (rules of attribution are in everyones copyright law -if you don't have one, just cry-, that everyone can read). Blizzard is interested in that those promises become fulfilled so, until Blizzard is the one making the moves and you actually sign a document that says "ASSIGNMENT" or "WORK CONTRACT", all ACTUAL CREATORS should assume full ownership of their rights.
 

deepstrasz

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shouldn't it just say Made by Blizzard Entertainment LLC?), because these type of clauses just serve as power plays so they can negotiate from a better position.
Don't give them ideas...
until Blizzard is the one making the moves and you actually sign a document that says "ASSIGNMENT" or "WORK CONTRACT", all ACTUAL CREATORS should assume full ownership of their rights.
I mean yeah. I virtually sign (not technically even that) the EULA and promise I won't sell the map :D but that don't mean I won't make a game out of it if I can or that it shouldn't be allowed, legally.
Imagine that if the author stops updating the map or worse makes sure it gets taken down from most sites, the only option left for Blizzard to have a player base for that particular map is for other people to edit it and that's where/when map protection works best. Even if the map is unprotected, probably many would lose interest because of many others trying to make their own version out of it. There's so many such maps like Green TD because the original author(s) just stopped updating and I don't think every version of such maps get the necessary attention. Maybe some have the luck for it.
Blizzard has the interest of keeping map authors in the game so that Warcraft III would get the attention. DotA could only be played via Warcraft III. Not anymore, hence the issues besides wanting to make their own version which they did but had to probably differentiate it a lot. If only they had done what Valve has done over the years... hire those mappers/modders to work for them...
 
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The judge also dismissed the Ucool theory that DOTA belongs to the community. As a last resort, Ucool even said that all this was fucked up as Icefrog breached the contract with Blizzard (the EULA) by exploiting DOTA commercially (something very interesting as i mentioned above). Of course only Blizzard is the one entitled to promove such claims so this was naturally dismissed.
They certainly wanted to have the intellectual property of the map, but they failed. Now that you mention it I see maps that profit normally and not only in War3 if not SC 2, but Blizzard says nothing.

It seems that the company does not know what to do now, that is why its standards. But if they want current mapmakers to create their "Dota 2", they must be fair when it comes to profiting, if the mapper wants to profit this is fine, but if you want to go a step further like creating a new game, one could count on the Blizzard's help in developing this, and this wouldn't be a hassle. In the end no one loses. For that they must modify their rules of the Editor

Well, I think they might have actually found some security breaches they didn't want to leave there, with the memory hack thing I mean.
1.26 was patched out for security reasons. I am pretty sure I remember an edited uther party map that supposedly was able to uninstall a person's windows after the map began.

Both are right, (Bug Memory was a flaw that allowed you to internally manage the natives of Warcraft 3, even create viruses, the problem lies in overwriting data, this is the problem).
What I mean is that if they implemented functions that were requested a long time ago and that could be done with Memory, but several of these have flaws and need to be fixed. But such functions as complete management of all the Editor's skills, obtaining fps of a player, saving user data (Save & Load), adjusting the replays, altering the models in real-time units and terrain, etc. That was discarded, I remember that you can make a mmorpg map like this.
I think it would be better to have a list of all these functions.
 
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If only they had done what Valve has done over the years... hire those mappers/modders to work for them...

This talent hiring method worked already for Valve (Dota, AutoChess) and others (Brutal Doom). Since it already worked and is legally sound and certain, i think it will be the way of doing things for Blizzard, should some talent arises from this scene again. Aren't they trying to imitate VALVE right now? Just look at that Battle.net interface. Is that you Steam?
I also think that they are most likely not interested in custom games that ressemble their current games as this would be stupid as hell in their part.
Trying to actually bullying modders with the EULA content clauses could be another possible move, but it is much more challengeable on an actual trial (copyright law limitations, possible unenforceability, etc), with uncertain outcomes, not to mention it will piss off everyone else (ie. users) and will kill this scene for good in a totally deserving manner. One thing is to write that clause, other thing is to actually enforce it and behaving like it exists. So if they are not doing either the hiring method or the actual bulliyng method it is because the opportunity still doesn't present for them i suppose.

They certainly wanted to have the intellectual property of the map, but they failed. Now that you mention it I see maps that profit normally and not only in War3 if not SC 2, but Blizzard says nothing.

The EULA says commercial exploitation is prohibited as in what section 4 of the policy says (ie. charging a compulsory price for downloading the map or for accessing more features) but allows for voluntary donations which is a very succesfull system for lots of content creators. A system of voluntary donations is hardly a commercial explotation regardless of this "allowance" but thanks anyway Blizzard. Maybe one day WC3 gets the system of SC2 in where Blizzard gives additional licenses (and kind of a sponsorship) to some dedicated authors and projects.
Since we are creators, we can also publicly display our custom games on websites, adapt them to other engines, etc. I'm talking about the game itself, not the assets used. If you want to be legally sure of your status regarding Blizzard's assets (ie. most of use icons, models, skins of Blizzard in our maps) remember that when you sign the EULA and the Policy, Blizzard allows you to "use" the Editor which is a tool that is used to modify a Blizzard game. Just remember to give proper attribution (credits) and not sell/license things you didn't create.
Since section 4 of the policy talks about "commercial exploitation" on such broad terms but then give a finite list of concrecte examples (sale, license -should say "payed" license-, rent, and provide extra payed services or suscriptions), i would say hosting a webpage dedicated to your map(s) and using adds for added support is also not prohibited (we can all discuss this though). Some of you are maybe interested in this exact thing.
 

deepstrasz

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One thing is to write that clause, other thing is to actually enforce it and behaving like it exists. So if they are not doing either the hiring method or the actual bulliyng method it is because the opportunity still doesn't present for them i suppose.
Well, sadly they kicked the wrong, or should I say, their own bucket with DotA and Valve got to IceFrog first as Riot Games got to Guinsoo.
Since section 4 of the policy talks about "commercial exploitation" on such broad terms but then give a finite list of concrecte examples (sale, license -should say "payed" license-, rent, and provide extra payed services or suscriptions), i would say hosting a webpage dedicated to your map(s) and using adds for added support is also not prohibited (we can all discuss this though). Some of you are maybe interested in this exact thing.
Well, in a way HiveWorkshop is basically doing it, hosting maps for a game that is not the site's and uses adds to help sustain itself.
 
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Well, sadly they kicked the wrong, or should I say, their own bucket with DotA and Valve got to IceFrog first as Riot Games got to Guinsoo.

Yes, Blizzard acknowledged this. Morhaime said they should've done "something" about Dota. I don't know if he was thinking about bullying Abdul and the guys or actually hiring them. They saw this a an opportunity lost because of inaction in the end. So yeah, maybe they do it all over again and we have another Abdul Ismail meets Newell before Blizzard case.
 
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90% of my problems with Reforged would disappear if they offered the original game as a download in a separate executable but I've been saying that for months and nobody seems to be listening.

Then again, maybe they are listening, and the painfully slow development just hasn't caught up to that yet.
 
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Only thing I want back more than anything else are custom campaigns.

I'm guessing custom campaigns are delayed because they want to make it Online (and consequently Multiplayer) such as what they just did with Sc2.

If that's the case, I'm happy to wait a bit.

But I might be over-positive about this.

But come on, multiplayer campaigns. It's like, a dream come true, an ocean of new possibilities.

Then again, maybe they are listening, and the painfully slow development just hasn't caught up to that yet.
Nope, I think Classic is dead and buried and they won't ever consider making it available.
And I also think the community needs to face and acknowledge that fact if we want to have a future. Else we can just move on to other games.

EDIT: It's good to see a dense patch. But I really don't care about the Ladder. But the Hiveworkshop is more of a modder community so we necessarily are more focused towards that. Let's not forget that they might have numbers showcasing ladder > custom games right now.
 
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deepstrasz

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But come on, multiplayer campaigns. It's like, a dream come true, an ocean of new possibilities.
I just don't want them to force to log in every time I want to play a singleplayer one.
Nope, I think Classic is dead and buried and they won't ever consider making it available.
And I also think the community needs to face and acknowledge that fact if we want to have a future. Else we can just move on to other games.
Hopefully, StarCraft: Remastered like, with the classic version becoming free to download.
 
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The main question is how the player-made ladder, Wc3 Champions, will respond to the implementation of the new ladder. I don't think it would not be good for the player base if everyone is split between 2 ladders that are mutually exclusive.

True, but this will depend a lot on the question whether the "native" ladder can even compete with Wc3 Champions.

The Wc3 Champions ladder works already really, really well and provides a lot of nice features and statistics (despite being developed in the free time of a single guy). For example, you have live information and direct links to twich streams of players embedded directly into the ladder, a ranking system, seasons and more. Basically all european professional players use it by now.

For the native ladder, so far there are only promises of features that Wc3 Champions already offers, but not even a time estimate when it will actually be ready and working. I guess even if they release it tomorrow, its too late by now. Many players will inevitably stay with Wc3 Champions.
 
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Hopefully, StarCraft: Remastered like, with the classic version becoming free to download.
I think they would only do that if they thought that, like Sc1, the remastered version would be more popular than the classic version. If people prefer classic wc3 over reforged, it might be a long time before they consider making it free to download.
 
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90% of my problems with Reforged would disappear if they offered the original game as a download in a separate executable but I've been saying that for months and nobody seems to be listening.

Then again, maybe they are listening, and the painfully slow development just hasn't caught up to that yet.

i would gladly pay 20, 30 or hell even 60 dollars again to have the original game back intact and for reforged to be shelved forever, is not like anyone is gonna miss this travesty

but nope, of course this is not gonna happend, blizzard just have their head too far up their own asses to actually hear what the very few remaining players playing this disgusting excuse for a remaster have to say

they are so out of touch with everything and so obsessed in polishing this turd of a game that i cannot help but laugh at them, this game will never replace the original wc3, even if you cannot officially play it anymore, wich is absolutely ridiculous and unnaceptable, so they are just wasting resources and time just for the sake of it, nothing is gonna change the fact this game will forever (hopefully) be the worst used rated game on metacritic history and definetly one of the worst remasters of a game if not the worst ever created, so just give us the old game back and shallow your pride whole blizzard, is not like anyone holds any respect for you nowadays anyways
 
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