Very disturbing.

[Mr. Bob]

YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.1 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.2 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.3 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.4 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

This is one of the reasons why I don't want to join the military.

And please, I don't want to see a single person say "F*** the USA!" or "The USA SUCKS!" because it is immature, and quite frankly stupid. We don't need you idiots here. Just comment about the actions taken by those SPECIFIC people involved. I don't want to see any generalizing bastards. If you can't be mature, go home, and shut up. Makes me sick to see people degrade an entire country based off of 5 people's actions. Honestly. Grow up.

That being said, DISCUSS!

 

[Mechanical Man]

The army is a brainwashing factory. And thats not only in USA. Don't join it.

 

[Gyrosphinx]

The army is a brainwashing factory. And thats not only in USA. Don't join it.

Could not agree more

 

[Mr. Bob]

lol you guys are spot on. First time in a while that the first few replies to a political thread are slightly mature.

 

[Gausslander]

The army is a brainwashing factory. And thats not only in USA. Don't join it.

I wouldn't say it completely brainwashes you... but it completely changes your mindset from 'citizen' to 'killer'. Those who cannot make the transition back to 'citizen' from 'killer' end up having PTSD and other behavioral problems.

 

[aarkshark]

The army is a brainwashing factory. And thats not only in USA. Don't join it.

Well, that's a bit harsh, isn't it. I know a few people in the Canadian army, as well as one fellow in the American army. The guy from America was posted in Iraq, but ended up getting sent home with a purple heart. In my opinion, the guy is pretty stable, and he's not anywhere near brainwashed.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Well, that's a bit harsh, isn't it. I know a few people in the Canadian army, as well as one fellow in the American army. The guy from America was posted in Iraq, but ended up getting sent home with a purple heart. In my opinion, the guy is pretty stable, and he's not anywhere near brainwashed.

Indeed it was a bit of a generalization. But, it happens a lot. It also depends on what you are doing in a military organization. Intelligence extraction, (as depicted in the documentary given above) is a harsh area. Mental instability of soldiers from front-line command is also common. But, if you were to be a military tech specialist, or part of a civilian support unit, the danger for a mental illness is substantially lower.

You have to be realistic about the modern battlefield also, people. When you play games like "BF2" and "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare" it tends to leave a rather incorrect impression about how the modern day battle is really fought out.

For instance, while in a video game you have a large army rush into the other large army, in real life this is not the case. In other words, after the U.S. Civil War, open faced battles do not take place. You may argue that WWI and WWII were open faced battles. But, they were not really as much.

Modern day battles obviously, are more based on intelligence and organized strikes. Still, even though the number of casualties is lower then it was in history, it doesn't mean that the mental issues with soldiers are not present.

For instance, you can see the affects that war has on people with instances that we would call "abusive" and "disgusting" or even "inhuman". While some of these actions (such as a soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff) are inexcusable, some are effects of war.

The media plays a large part in corrupting out minds obviously also. When a soldier is killed by one Iraqi insurgent, the media will say something like "The hero of the USA was brutally gunned down by a wicked terrorist" when in reality, it was just one more life that was lost in war. I NEVER adjust my opinions off of the media. EVER. Not that the media is bad, it is just that they inflate almost everything.

SO! In short:

1. While joining the military is sometimes considered an "honorable" thing to do, it can effect your mental instability a whole lot.

2. Modern day battles are no longer open faced. So, don't think that when you join the military, that you will experience heroic battles with dramatic deaths and victories. It just doesn't happen anymore.

3. DO NOT make opinions based off of the media. Do research yourself. I know this is a kind of hypocritical thing to say, being as how I just offered you all with a documentary. But, I do not base ALL of my opinions on that. I just watch it, and decide what is true and what is an inflation.

I hope that cleared some things up for you guys!

 

[InfiniteSeven]

The military isn't a horrible career as much as you present it... well maybe it depends where one lives, but still, the military is a tough career that someone has to uphold in times of strife.

As for the media bit, isn't it good to honor those that actually chose to fight on behalf of their nation, yet ended up paying their life for the fight? Its not as if one life isn't valuable and I think its good that they honor these people, it seems like something of offering condolences to the families and friends of the fallen, as well as paying respects to them.

 

[Mr. Bob]

The military isn't a horrible career as much as you present it... well maybe it depends where one lives, but still, the military is a tough career that someone has to uphold in times of strife.

As for the media bit, isn't it good to honor those that actually chose to fight on behalf of their nation, yet ended up paying their life for the fight? Its not as if one life isn't valuable and I think its good that they honor these people, it seems like something of offering condolences to the families and friends of the fallen, as well as paying respects to them.

I never said the military was a horrible career. It just has it's ups and downs. In fact, logging is the USA's most dangerous job by statistics. Logging jobs give a 2/3 chance of being seriously injured or dieing. I was in logging for a very short time. I quit for the obvious reasons. So, no. The military is not a "horrible" job. I never said that. I was merely exposing some of the problems it can cause. Not always causes, but what it can cause.

And, you don't understand the media bit. Inflating a story to a point where you basically say "the USA is holy and Iraq is evil" is wrong. Consider the terms. The Iraqi was serving his country just like we serve ours. But, because one of ours died, does that automatically make the Iraqi evil? No. This is why it is dangerous to let yourself be swayed by the media.

And, honoring there families? No offense, but that is bull. What about Abu Ghraib? Did we honor them? I utterly HATE it when people turn soldiers into honor "whores" because they died. Not to sound too cold, but frankly, it is their fault! They joined the military, and yes, that was an "honorable" thing I guess. But in the end, they were getting payed. I don't care why they joined, weather it be for money, or for honor, but it was their choice.

My point is, yes we should honor the dead soldiers. But don't inflate their stories to the point of which it is utter garbage. It is ridiculous. If a soldier died, you can't say "he was a hero. A perfect being. And the killer was a ruthless bastard terrorist." because we DON'T KNOW THAT. The Iraqi could have been a poor farmer forced to fight.

So, NO! It is NOT ok to honor the dead at another innocent (until proven otherwise) person's expense. I don't care who it is or what they did.

What happens is, people end up getting this picture that all Iraqi people are "blasted bastard terrorists" when in reality, most of them hate terrorists just as much as the USA. The media has a history of turning the truth into a false generalization of reality. It is disgusting if you think about it.

 

[InfiniteSeven]

And, you don't understand the media bit. Inflating a story to a point where you basically say "the USA is holy and Iraq is evil" is wrong. Consider the terms. The Iraqi was serving his country just like we serve ours. But, because one of ours died, does that automatically make the Iraqi evil? No. This is why it is dangerous to let yourself be swayed by the media.

Hmm I don't recall the media saying anything about the USA being a holy nation, or about Iraq being a evil nation. And for your information, do NOT consider me as being swayed by the media. I despise them a lot more than you believe.

And, honoring there families? No offense, but that is bull. What about Abu Ghraib? Did we honor them? I utterly HATE it when people turn soldiers into honor "whores" because they died. Not to sound too cold, but frankly, it is their fault! They joined the military, and yes, that was an "honorable" thing I guess. But in the end, they were getting payed. I don't care why they joined, weather it be for money, or for honor, but it was their choice.

And I utterly hate it when people disrespect most soldiers as people who don't deserve a thing, when infact they put themselves in constant danger for what they believe is usually right.

My point is, yes we should honor the dead soldiers. But don't inflate their stories to the point of which it is utter garbage. It is ridiculous. If a soldier died, you can't say "he was a hero. A perfect being. And the killer was a ruthless bastard terrorist." because we DON'T KNOW THAT. The Iraqi could have been a poor farmer forced to fight.

Again, I don't recall anyone calling the soldiers as a perfect being or the killer as a "ruthless bastard terrorist". But he might be a hero if he did do something like save lives through that one kill, which doesn't have to be a innocent person. But the fact is, you DON'T KNOW what the situation was either, so you can't assume that the stories are all untrue unless you actually witnessed the event.

So, NO! It is NOT ok to honor the dead at another innocent (until proven otherwise) person's expense. I don't care who it is or what they did.

If they killed a innocent person on purpose then yes they don't deserve to be honored. But just remember that you can't categorise everyone as innocent.

What happens is, people end up getting this picture that all Iraqi people are "blasted bastard terrorists" when in reality, most of them hate terrorists just as much as the USA. The media has a history of turning the truth into a false generalization of reality. It is disgusting if you think about it.

I can see why you think its disgusting but I never recall the media calling ALL Iraqi people, "blasted bastard terrorists". And you seem to be generalising people who listen to the media as people who become racist towards a particular race. Not everyone is like that. But I do agree that the media has turned many truths into false realities, but again, you seem to be generalising everything the media does as twisting the truth into false realities, which I don't think is very smart, and it seems to be rather hypocritical.

In anycase, I don't think there will be much point arguing, we each have different perspectives and we've pointed them out already. I respect your views and I don't plan on trying to change them, but I ask of you to respect my views on this subject, since I doubt you'll convince me.

 

[DarkIron Dwarf]

Dang man just watched all the videos. Those guys just turned out to be Car robbers and the rumor false, I don't think i would have the stomach to join as a Intelligence extraction.

Also are the Rules of War even used much any more?

 

[Zombie]

I'm not a USA fan, but it's not the military training or anything that's responsible for these terrible things. We only see the radical examples, we don't really see the good ones. The merciful leaders, the well coordinated attacks and the "Noone gets left behind, Sergeant!!" things outside the movies filled with propagandic content (or CNN lol).

The problem is in their personality. They simply don't treat these (poor) people as humans, they treat them like some inferior animal or something, which is wrong in the first place. These soldiers are thrilled being in a foreign country, often sitting ducks for ambushes and they are constantly endangered. They let off the steam on these people, as they cannot do so in armed ones, as they usually attack cowardly from stealth positions (mainly because they are out-gunned and manned, nvm) which is very very wrong in the first place. They are bored, very wrong behaving kids, left alone in a porcelain store after a bad day. The US military needs to pay more attention to their soldiers' behaviours.

(sorry, I couldn't leave the immature part out: This Abu Ghraib incident is the most disgusting one, and these soldiers who committed it should be shot in the head.)

 

[Mr. Bob]

Hmm I don't recall the media saying anything about the USA being a holy nation, or about Iraq being a evil nation. And for your information, do NOT consider me as being swayed by the media. I despise them a lot more than you believe.



And I utterly hate it when people disrespect most soldiers as people who don't deserve a thing, when infact they put themselves in constant danger for what they believe is usually right.



Again, I don't recall anyone calling the soldiers as a perfect being or the killer as a "ruthless bastard terrorist". But he might be a hero if he did do something like save lives through that one kill, which doesn't have to be a innocent person. But the fact is, you DON'T KNOW what the situation was either, so you can't assume that the stories are all untrue unless you actually witnessed the event.



If they killed a innocent person on purpose then yes they don't deserve to be honored. But just remember that you can't categorise everyone as innocent.



I can see why you think its disgusting but I never recall the media calling ALL Iraqi people, "blasted bastard terrorists". And you seem to be generalising people who listen to the media as people who become racist towards a particular race. Not everyone is like that. But I do agree that the media has turned many truths into false realities, but again, you seem to be generalising everything the media does as twisting the truth into false realities, which I don't think is very smart, and it seems to be rather hypocritical.

In anycase, I don't think there will be much point arguing, we each have different perspectives and we've pointed them out already. I respect your views and I don't plan on trying to change them, but I ask of you to respect my views on this subject, since I doubt you'll convince me.

Well lol I think our opinions are on the same track. It is just that you and I kinda got some things wrong. (Mostly me. I worded some things incorrectly.)

First of all, I was using "USA is heroic vs the Evil Iraq" as an example of the gist of which the media can turn our minds to thinking.

Second, I never dishonored them. D: I merely said that you can honor them to a point. But when you do it at another presumed innocent person's expense, it is wrong.

And, well your right. You can not know if the stories are true. But, you can't assume them to be true. Nor can you assume them to be wrong. Instead, take out the attacker from the equation. Only put in the dead soldier.

You can catagorize everyone as innocent....If you haven't seen proof of them doing wrong. So you just expect some random dude to be guilty?

Again, I never said that the media ALWAYS inflates things. They do it a lot though. That is not a generalization. And, I never said they twist the story. They just inflate it.

I hope you don't see this as an argument. We are just debating. D:

 

[Hakeem]

I wouldn't say it completely brainwashes you... but it completely changes your mindset from 'citizen' to 'killer'. Those who cannot make the transition back to 'citizen' from 'killer' end up having PTSD and other behavioral problems.

Where do you get off, saying outlandish things like that? What use are killers in war? It's not like the purpose of an army is to kill other people. That's surely not the whole reason they exist in the first place.


I'll say one thing though. Government institutions are good for getting research funding.

 

[Mr. Bob]

We should also consider our history. (Yes, history is important. Contrary to what post modern bogus says.)

What did the Romans say about the barbarians? Well the fact that they called them barbarians kinda proves a point. Archeology finds that the barbarians were actually a very civilized group of people. But, we only got one side of the story. The Roman's side.

Then, consider the Spanish explorers. What did they write about the Native Americans to the world? "They are vicious savages that prey on little children". That caused the later arrivals to America to think poorly of them. This came to a problem.

Next what about the Europe nations that came to Africa? Just because they weren't as "advanced" as they were, they instituted a sort of wrong imperialism.

Are we doing the same today? We tend to generalize the entire Iraqi nation as a big hole full of terrorists and very bad people. This is not the case. The majority of Iraq does not look to well towards terrorists. It is childish. Then the media comes and explodes everything. (Not always. But, a lot.) We are copying our ancestors. It is not that I feel bad for the terrorists. They should be put in jail. But, I do feel bad for the innocent Iraqi punished for just being in the same country.

 

[Black Crown]

I do not see how the color of there uniform or orgin of there country means anything in this.

There are people in this world that do things much worse, and much more unspeakable then the following, the following we're.. Just recorded..

There are three kinds of people in this world.

Those who fight.
Those who kill.
Those who murder.

Which are you?


We are all innocent, and at the same exact time. We are all guilty.

The only thing that matters, is which side of the fence you are standing on.

 

[Hakeem]

Well, if people aren't convinced the people they are going to war with deserve to die, we would not support the war. Unless we make them evil, they are human like the rest of us. We wouldn't kill them any more than we would kill our neighbors. Either that or we must be afraid that they will kill us. Illogical though that fear may be.

 

[Gamervidsman2000]

The stupid thing with the USA Military they dont finesh the war they just stand and fight what ever goes at them, they need to start doing something like BOM there eneimes and it this war over and done with instead of looseing alot of it should be time to end it and send there terrorists to HELL!!!!!!!!!

Lol my idea of it, err Obama aint doing any thing about it yet.

 

[Zombie]

The stupid thing with the USA Military they dont finesh the war they just stand and fight what ever goes at them, they need to start doing something like BOM there eneimes and it this war over and done with instead of looseing alot of it should be time to end it and send there terrorists to HELL!!!!!!!!!

Lol my idea of it, err Obama aint doing any thing about it yet.

Dude, this is a serious discussion. You can't expect anyone to bomb whole nations to shit. There will always be enemies of the USA, and with that view on things, you could simply bomb the whole world.

 

[Gausslander]

Where do you get off, saying outlandish things like that? What use are killers in war? It's not like the purpose of an army is to kill other people. That's surely not the whole reason they exist in the first place.


I'll say one thing though. Government institutions are good for getting research funding.

Are you being sarcastic or are you really that idiotic?
An army is for killing, that's their profession.
They're not policemen, they only arrest prisoners of war; war always contains an insane amount of death and destruction.

And where do I get off? I have friends that are absolutely devastated due to their friends getting blown up in front of them; from shooting extremists point blank in the face - thus ending their lives.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Are you being sarcastic or are you really that idiotic?
An army is for killing, that's their profession.
They're not policemen, they only arrest prisoners of war; war always contains an insane amount of death and destruction.

And where do I get off? I have friends that are absolutely devastated due to their friends getting blown up in front of them; from shooting extremists point blank in the face - thus ending their lives.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't know if he was being sarcastic or not. But, wars have nothing to do with killing. It just happens in some wars. He never said armies are not for killing. He said wars really don't have to have bloodshed. He does have an idea of what he is talking about. Consider the Cold War. (I know there were some casualties, but it was different.)

Armies, in some cases, aren't even for killing either. Armies are for defending against and attacking a source of threat. Elimination isn't always killing human lives.

No offense. I am just making some general observations. Some good points though! : )

 

[Gausslander]

I don't know if he was being sarcastic or not. But, wars have nothing to do with killing. It just happens in some wars. He never said armies are not for killing. He said wars really don't have to have bloodshed. He does have an idea of what he is talking about. Consider the Cold War. (I know there were some casualties, but it was different.)

Armies, in some cases, aren't even for killing either. Armies are for defending against and attacking a source of threat. Elimination isn't always killing human lives.

No offense. I am just making some general observations. Some good points though! : )

It just happens?
You are a bunch of idiots if you actually think the sole purpose of the army is to not kill.
Name one war lasting more then 12 hours that has not involved a single human casualty!!

And the Cold War involved many casualties; over many battlefields (including all of the countries the soviets raped and conquered).

 

[Mr. Bob]

It just happens?
You are a bunch of idiots if you actually think the sole purpose of the army is to not kill.
Name one war lasting more then 12 hours that has not involved a single human casualty!!

And the Cold War involved many casualties; over many battlefields (including all of the countries the soviets raped and conquered).

I don't care if there never has been a war like this. (Unless you count tug-o-war and the war between me and my bastard dog.) All I care about is the possibility of a war like this.

Just like a battle doesn't have to involve killing. People get killed because that is the only means of elimination that can be found. You have to also define 'killing'.

In a fight, does one entity always die? No. Now broaden that fight. A fight between 40 people. Each side consists of 20 people. (An army.) But does anyone die? No. Because it is a brawl.

But! You are right if you mean armies that are recruited from countries, can be expected to kill human lives. But, the technology is coming along quickly. My guess is that in 75 years, we will not need human armies. We already have remote controlled planes and troops. Why not tanks and ships? Give it a few years. (But, we will of course have a defending biological army.)

And quit calling everyone idiots. That never gets you anywhere. Try to keep this discussion as civilized and mature as possible. We are just having an intellectual debate.

 

[Gausslander]

I don't care if there never has been a war like this. (Unless you count tug-o-war and the war between me and my bastard dog.) All I care about is the possibility of a war like this.

Just like a battle doesn't have to involve killing. People get killed because that is the only means of elimination that can be found. You have to also define 'killing'.

In a fight, does one entity always die? No. Now broaden that fight. A fight between 40 people. Each side consists of 20 people. (An army.) But does anyone die? No. Because it is a brawl.

But! You are right if you mean armies that are recruited from countries, can be expected to kill human lives. But, the technology is coming along quickly. My guess is that in 75 years, we will not need human armies. We already have remote controlled planes and troops. Why not tanks and ships? Give it a few years. (But, we will of course have a defending biological army.)

And quit calling everyone idiots. That never gets you anywhere. Try to keep this discussion as civilized and mature as possible. We are just having an intellectual debate.

I was going to chew you out, but then I read the last two paragraphs and I think I have come to an agreement about what you are saying.

It's not you that's an idiot; Hakeem is just insensitive for the most part, calling me outlandish when I've had friends nearly come back in bodybags from Iraq.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Are you being sarcastic or are you really that idiotic?
An army is for killing, that's their profession.
They're not policemen, they only arrest prisoners of war; war always contains an insane amount of death and destruction.

And where do I get off? I have friends that are absolutely devastated due to their friends getting blown up in front of them; from shooting extremists point blank in the face - thus ending their lives.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Seven letter word starting with S.

 

[varsaigen]

I'm not a USA fan, but it's not the military training or anything that's responsible for these terrible things. We only see the radical examples, we don't really see the good ones. The merciful leaders, the well coordinated attacks and the "Noone gets left behind, Sergeant!!" things outside the movies filled with propagandic content (or CNN lol).

The problem is in their personality. They simply don't treat these (poor) people as humans, they treat them like some inferior animal or something, which is wrong in the first place. These soldiers are thrilled being in a foreign country, often sitting ducks for ambushes and they are constantly endangered. They let off the steam on these people, as they cannot do so in armed ones, as they usually attack cowardly from stealth positions (mainly because they are out-gunned and manned, nvm) which is very very wrong in the first place. They are bored, very wrong behaving kids, left alone in a porcelain store after a bad day. The US military needs to pay more attention to their soldiers' behaviours.

(sorry, I couldn't leave the immature part out: This Abu Ghraib incident is the most disgusting one, and these soldiers who committed it should be shot in the head.)

I am from the US, and our military is well trained and a large majority of our soldiers are patriotic and do the right thing. Other soldiers are there to be able to shoot others with a reason to allow them to shoot someone. Others join so they can easily tour the world, usually by joining the Navy. Now, there are bad soldiers no doubt, that take advantage of the defenseless, but almost all of them are soon discovered for their crimes and are court marshalled. The ones that are not discovered quickly are eventually discovered, and they too are court marshalled. Either way, they are brought to justice.

Now, I agree that what they did was wrong, but I do not know if they were court marshalled or not. If they have not been court marshalled (I do not know when this happened), then I am sure they will be soon.

 

[InfiniteSeven]

Are you being sarcastic or are you really that idiotic?
An army is for killing, that's their profession.
They're not policemen, they only arrest prisoners of war; war always contains an insane amount of death and destruction.

And where do I get off? I have friends that are absolutely devastated due to their friends getting blown up in front of them; from shooting extremists point blank in the face - thus ending their lives.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The army's professions include the use of force (which is different from killing), defense (again, different from killing) and to a limited extent disaster relief. Killing is usually a part of their role in the use of force and for defense, but that's not what they're there for. They are not policemen, indeed, but they are different and they are an important factor of many countries.

It just happens?
You are a bunch of idiots if you actually think the sole purpose of the army is to not kill.
Name one war lasting more then 12 hours that has not involved a single human casualty!!

And the Cold War involved many casualties; over many battlefields (including all of the countries the soviets raped and conquered).

The Cold War itself involved no violence. It was a war over ideologies, tension and competition between the divided world. There were wars, such as the Vietnam war, Korean War etc. But those wars are not part of the Cold War but rather an effect of the Cold War itself.


Edit: A side note, but what gives you the right to consider anybody an idiot by the way? You're no expert on the topic (Not saying I am or anybody else is).

 

[Mr. Bob]

Ok guys. You've made your points about Scyth-Master. I don't think we should all pound him out though. He just had some ideas, just as we have ours.

Although, in any case, calling everyone idiots usually isn't the best thing to do. But, lets just move on.

SO! Any new thoughts?

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

My brother is in the military so this thread is insulting. The videos aren't, but the comments are. You can't generalize about a group of people when you don't even know them.

 

[Mr. Bob]

My brother is in the military so this thread is insulting. The videos aren't, but the comments are. You can't generalize about a group of people when you don't even know them.

We were never generalizing. We never said that military troops are 'bad'. We never hinted at moral stature at all. We are talking about the mental dangers that joining the military can cause.

I commend your brother for his work. What is bad, is when a soldier dies, then the media tries to inflate a story, by crediting the dead at another presumed innocent person's expense.

Please, reread the comments. I do not speak for everyone here. Just my own comments. Thanks for being serious.

 

[varsaigen]

I know, for a fact, that the sole purpose of the US military is to ensure the safety and protection of the public and the freedom of the US citizens. Sure, there are deaths. But that will happen in any war, whether or not it be a soldier, or a civilian. Some militaries are created to provide their country with a sense of power, and threaten others from taking them over. Some are even turned around to becoming solely invasion forces. Deaths happen, and no one can actually do anything about it. Government leaders quarrel over what they believe is right, over what someone else believes is right. But there is a point when words will not help. And, sadly, this is where it comes down to it. Either country, whether they have the better strategy, or the most firepower, battle is out against eachother, with either one winning over the other. Wars can also be waged because of religious beliefs. Take the Crusade as an example of that. Wars don't tend to end quickly. Most take years! And with modern technology, can easily take 10 years. Look at World War I and II. Those, with Europe, Japan, and the US, and Russia, fought for their beliefs. In World War II, Hitler wanted to claim the world. Practically everyone else rejected him and waged war on him, for they wanted to maintain their freedom. Today's war, is over. The US has won. Now, it is the scattered terrorists that fight back to try to appear strong in the eyes of the "nonbelievers" (everyone who is not Muslim) by striking fear into the public. They are a shattered group, with their members dieing or being captured.Their beliefs tell them to take as many non believers with them to their graves, and they will have a better status in heaven. They believe, that by taking as many lives as possible, that they will get their seventy two virgins. (male or female, they don't say XD Besides, the downfall to that, is, other than the male terrorists wanting female virgins, but getting male, is that they'd have to teach them how XD) The terrorists want to appear unshaken by their being stripped of control and power, and don't realize that it is over. militaries are made for defense, and, since the terrorists were attacking US soil, we brought the fight to them. The US was keeping the US public safe and ensuring that the terrorists would not roam free throughout the US. (they kept recounting the ballots to keep him from organizing properly, even though he had been given rumors. The Clinton administration had made it so that the FBI and CIA were not allowed to talk to eachother, thus they couldn't prepare for the 9-11 bombings along with the Pentagon. It was a stupid move, and sacrificed the lives of several people (Luckily the people in the Twin Towers mostly called in sick, and the area hit by the Pentagon was being refurbished anyway XD)) Anyway, I think I'll leave it at that.

Edit: I am sorry for the large post, and I know this thread is about the mental challenges on troops. The Vietnam War is an excellent example, as all the killing and torture by the Vietenemese sent many of US troops into having horrible mental states where they would have putburts of violence, reliving their days in the war, paranoya, beileiving that a Vietkong was just around the corner, etc.

 

[sacridshadow]

There are three kinds of people in this world.

Those who fight.
Those who kill.
Those who murder.

Which are you?

What about the people who refuse to kill or fight? And the people who haven't killed someone? You seem to have forgotten that there are ways of the universe that revolve around everything BUT killing and hurting. There are things that are created with the sole perpose of peace. and there are PEOPLE who refuse to fight or kill, even if they die. You ignored the fact that those people exist. Canada hasn't really fought anyone. and you know what? They call them selves Peace Makers. From your post, I understand that you think the whole world is bent on war. If you take a walk around your neighborhood, I'm pretty sure you'll see anything BUT fighting. right? That is, if you aren't in a battle zone where your best course of action is to flee. Just take a step outside and you'll see a quiet neighborhood, maybe someone watering their plants, or children playing, unless of course, you live in an apartment with cars going by. I live in a forest, and uyou know what I see every time I look outside, peace. Forget the TV, just look out your window. The media focuses on chaos and the bad things in life becuase the good things in life are often the things we see everyday. The war, and politics rule the media. Why? because it gets attention. Feel free to turn the TV off.

 

[varsaigen]

There are three kinds of people in this world.

Those who fight.
Those who kill.
Those who murder.

Which are you?


We are all innocent, and at the same exact time. We are all guilty.

The only thing that matters, is which side of the fence you are standing on.

I just read what you said there... and I have to inform you, that you are wrong. It is all on the matter of beliefs. There are also the innocent that do not take sides, or are so peaceful, that they would not even hurt a fly. Some, are so open minded, that they do anything they say. So, there are MORE than 3 types of people in this world. Not to mention those that will only kill to defend what they love, cherish, and defend: Their families, friends, and their freedom.

 

[Zombie]

I am from the US, and our military is well trained and a large majority of our soldiers are patriotic and do the right thing. Other soldiers are there to be able to shoot others with a reason to allow them to shoot someone. Others join so they can easily tour the world, usually by joining the Navy. Now, there are bad soldiers no doubt, that take advantage of the defenseless, but almost all of them are soon discovered for their crimes and are court marshalled. The ones that are not discovered quickly are eventually discovered, and they too are court marshalled. Either way, they are brought to justice.

Now, I agree that what they did was wrong, but I do not know if they were court marshalled or not. If they have not been court marshalled (I do not know when this happened), then I am sure they will be soon.

That's almost exactly what I said too. Why did you quote me?

 

[varsaigen]

Message deleted. the misunderstanding has been fixed.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Please don't send this thread on a downward spiral. Keep personal discussions personal. Use Personal Messages please.

 

[varsaigen]

he thought I was quoting him, which I hadn't. Personal view, logical veiw. On witht he discussion. ... If someone else would post (other members than just us.)

 

[Hakeem]

Are you being sarcastic or are you really that idiotic?

Note the italics:

Where do you get off, saying outlandish things like that?

I debated whether or not to post that way, because there was the very good possibility you would think I was actually that stupid, instead of what I would think would be obvious sarcasm. How can someone know the word "army" and think it has a vastly different definition than what it is? Especially when they have internet access.

But, I guess that there are people that stupid. Who can properly use [QUOTE] tags, italics, capitalization, grammar, spelling, and writing style in such a manner as demonstrated in the post to which you had replied, let alone the thousands of other posts by the same user. Yeah. People can be pretty stupid.


Say, you wouldn't happen to be a pessimist would you?

---

@The illicitly spawned discussion, a war is effectively ineffective without killing. You have a bunch of people willing and able to kill you. The best solution is to kill them. If you remove the ability for them to kill you (cutting off resources, etc.), you have only delayed them. They still are willing to kill you. All they need is the ability.

 

[HailFireer]

Watched the videos. Bah. In every army in the wrold there are idiots, people who could do nothing else, but be a simple brute with very limited intelegence.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Watched the videos. Bah. In every army in the wrold there are idiots, people who could do nothing else, but be a simple brute with very limited intelegence.

I don't quite think it was a lack of intelligence that was the problem. Instead, due to the harsh circumstances, they lacked self-control in a way.

I am not saying that as an excuse. What they did is inexcusable, but still, it had nothing to do with their intelligence.

 

[HailFireer]

If you want to go to army DONT join the infathry. Go to mobile artilery or airforce.

 

[Total_Warrior]

this aired in 2005 what makes you think they would have the same rules or what ever for 4 years? They would have to change it some time @ HailFireer you shouldnt join airforce either because what if you area chopper pilot carrying soldiers during an operation the enemy can have massive AA and RPG's

 

[varsaigen]

then you'd have a chance of being shot, like everyone does, but at least you can move faster, shoot guns, and luanch missiles at your enemy from above... =3

 

[HailFireer]

When I sed airforce I ment to pilot a fighter not a choper.
NVM, back to the main discusion.

 

[varsaigen]

choppers are in the airforce and the navy

 

[Silverfish423]

The military's job is to kill. As with any job, you must change the employees (the soldiers) to believe in the cause you stand for. People try to make it sound better and less bad if they say, oh, we are protecting the people, or, we are taking out those with views different than our own. The bottom line is, the military kills people. Wars kill people. Greed kills people. On the flip side, ever gone outside and seen how nature functions? Everything is in balance and harmony. Sure, the wolf kills the bunny, but that is the circle of life and how it functions properly and peacefully. We humans have much to learn from nature. Now I dont mean to sound like a guru or nothing, but it is quite true. If you wish to look at it from a religious perspective, if we applied everything that Jesus said to our lives, the world would be a better place. No killing, no prejudice, etc, etc.
~Over and Out~

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

hey, i wrote an english essay with something like this as one of my supporting example. i will just repeat what i said.

the army or the war did not make these people evil. they were evil to begin with. the war on terror only provided an outlet for these people's inate immorality

...or something along those line

these people were natural sickos to begin with. being in a war only sanctioned them to carry out these acts, because they know, if they get caught(by the public i mean. the army will hide this kind of shit for sure) they can always blame the CO for letting them to do so or blame the trauma of the battlefield as the cause of their actions.

like that guy who planned, gangraped a iraqi girl and slaughtered her entire family. he got a life with possibility of shortening that in the future to 20 yrs. they argued battle stress and shit. i mean, that was easily a death penalty. but noooooo. "the little soldier is only crazy from the war, it's not his fault" f'ing bs

 

[Bontrager]

I am sure you all have heard the saying "90% of people are good, the other 10% are 'evil' ". What happened at these prison grounds is horrible, but in no way should anyone view the rest of the US military or commanding officers in the same manner as these six men. Here are some of the factors leading into the incident from one of the reports.

-Prior to the deployment to Iraq, [the MPs] received no training in detention/internee operations... [and had] very little instruction or training on the applicable rules of the Geneva Convention

-The general lack of knowledge, implementation, and emphasis of basic legal, regulatory, doctrinal, and command requirements within the 800th MP Brigade and its subordinate units

-The Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca detention facilities are significantly over their intended maximum capacity whole the guard force is undermanned and under resourced.

Parts of Major General Taguba's Investigation

 

[Japut3h]

People who join the army of today's world are either:

-Forced to join the army by their government.

-Lured into thinking that they actually owe it to their country, and that shooting some kids in a ditch is a honorable thing to do.

-Fucking psychopaths that just want to slaughter without paying the consequences.


So, yeah, don't join the army.

 

[Bontrager]

People who join the army of today's world are either:

-Forced to join the army by their government.

-Lured into thinking that they actually owe it to their country, and that shooting some kids in a ditch is a honorable thing to do.

-Fucking psychopaths that just want to slaughter without paying the consequences.

So, yeah, don't join the army.

I would love to see you say these exact words to individuals who have served in the military. Particularly my brother, two uncles, grandfather, and three great uncles. Please restrain yourself from spilling your ignorance all over the interwebs anymore.