Dismiss Notice
60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

Very disturbing.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Mr. Bob, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. Mr. Bob

    Mr. Bob

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Resources:
    81
    Models:
    74
    Packs:
    6
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    81
    YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.1 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

    YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.2 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

    YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.3 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

    YouTube - Inside Abu Ghraib Pt.4 (Iraq prison camp, CBC)

    This is one of the reasons why I don't want to join the military.

    And please, I don't want to see a single person say "F*** the USA!" or "The USA SUCKS!" because it is immature, and quite frankly stupid. We don't need you idiots here. Just comment about the actions taken by those SPECIFIC people involved. I don't want to see any generalizing bastards. If you can't be mature, go home, and shut up. Makes me sick to see people degrade an entire country based off of 5 people's actions. Honestly. Grow up.

    That being said, DISCUSS!
     
  2. Mechanical Man

    Mechanical Man

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    5,384
    Resources:
    39
    Models:
    30
    Icons:
    3
    Packs:
    1
    Maps:
    4
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    39
    The army is a brainwashing factory. And thats not only in USA. Don't join it.
     
  3. Gyrosphinx

    Gyrosphinx

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,747
    Resources:
    7
    Models:
    7
    Resources:
    7
    Could not agree more
     
  4. Mr. Bob

    Mr. Bob

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Resources:
    81
    Models:
    74
    Packs:
    6
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    81
    lol you guys are spot on. First time in a while that the first few replies to a political thread are slightly mature.
     
  5. Gausslander

    Gausslander

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,078
    Resources:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    I wouldn't say it completely brainwashes you... but it completely changes your mindset from 'citizen' to 'killer'. Those who cannot make the transition back to 'citizen' from 'killer' end up having PTSD and other behavioral problems.
     
  6. aarkshark

    aarkshark

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Messages:
    521
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    Well, that's a bit harsh, isn't it. I know a few people in the Canadian army, as well as one fellow in the American army. The guy from America was posted in Iraq, but ended up getting sent home with a purple heart. In my opinion, the guy is pretty stable, and he's not anywhere near brainwashed.
     
  7. Mr. Bob

    Mr. Bob

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Resources:
    81
    Models:
    74
    Packs:
    6
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    81
    Indeed it was a bit of a generalization. But, it happens a lot. It also depends on what you are doing in a military organization. Intelligence extraction, (as depicted in the documentary given above) is a harsh area. Mental instability of soldiers from front-line command is also common. But, if you were to be a military tech specialist, or part of a civilian support unit, the danger for a mental illness is substantially lower.

    You have to be realistic about the modern battlefield also, people. When you play games like "BF2" and "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare" it tends to leave a rather incorrect impression about how the modern day battle is really fought out.

    For instance, while in a video game you have a large army rush into the other large army, in real life this is not the case. In other words, after the U.S. Civil War, open faced battles do not take place. You may argue that WWI and WWII were open faced battles. But, they were not really as much.

    Modern day battles obviously, are more based on intelligence and organized strikes. Still, even though the number of casualties is lower then it was in history, it doesn't mean that the mental issues with soldiers are not present.

    For instance, you can see the affects that war has on people with instances that we would call "abusive" and "disgusting" or even "inhuman". While some of these actions (such as a soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff) are inexcusable, some are effects of war.

    The media plays a large part in corrupting out minds obviously also. When a soldier is killed by one Iraqi insurgent, the media will say something like "The hero of the USA was brutally gunned down by a wicked terrorist" when in reality, it was just one more life that was lost in war. I NEVER adjust my opinions off of the media. EVER. Not that the media is bad, it is just that they inflate almost everything.

    SO! In short:

    1. While joining the military is sometimes considered an "honorable" thing to do, it can effect your mental instability a whole lot.

    2. Modern day battles are no longer open faced. So, don't think that when you join the military, that you will experience heroic battles with dramatic deaths and victories. It just doesn't happen anymore.

    3. DO NOT make opinions based off of the media. Do research yourself. I know this is a kind of hypocritical thing to say, being as how I just offered you all with a documentary. But, I do not base ALL of my opinions on that. I just watch it, and decide what is true and what is an inflation.

    I hope that cleared some things up for you guys! :D
     
  8. InfiniteSeven

    InfiniteSeven

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    111
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    The military isn't a horrible career as much as you present it... well maybe it depends where one lives, but still, the military is a tough career that someone has to uphold in times of strife.

    As for the media bit, isn't it good to honor those that actually chose to fight on behalf of their nation, yet ended up paying their life for the fight? Its not as if one life isn't valuable and I think its good that they honor these people, it seems like something of offering condolences to the families and friends of the fallen, as well as paying respects to them.
     
  9. Mr. Bob

    Mr. Bob

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Resources:
    81
    Models:
    74
    Packs:
    6
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    81
    I never said the military was a horrible career. It just has it's ups and downs. In fact, logging is the USA's most dangerous job by statistics. Logging jobs give a 2/3 chance of being seriously injured or dieing. I was in logging for a very short time. I quit for the obvious reasons. So, no. The military is not a "horrible" job. I never said that. I was merely exposing some of the problems it can cause. Not always causes, but what it can cause.

    And, you don't understand the media bit. Inflating a story to a point where you basically say "the USA is holy and Iraq is evil" is wrong. Consider the terms. The Iraqi was serving his country just like we serve ours. But, because one of ours died, does that automatically make the Iraqi evil? No. This is why it is dangerous to let yourself be swayed by the media.

    And, honoring there families? No offense, but that is bull. What about Abu Ghraib? Did we honor them? I utterly HATE it when people turn soldiers into honor "whores" because they died. Not to sound too cold, but frankly, it is their fault! They joined the military, and yes, that was an "honorable" thing I guess. But in the end, they were getting payed. I don't care why they joined, weather it be for money, or for honor, but it was their choice.

    My point is, yes we should honor the dead soldiers. But don't inflate their stories to the point of which it is utter garbage. It is ridiculous. If a soldier died, you can't say "he was a hero. A perfect being. And the killer was a ruthless bastard terrorist." because we DON'T KNOW THAT. The Iraqi could have been a poor farmer forced to fight.

    So, NO! It is NOT ok to honor the dead at another innocent (until proven otherwise) person's expense. I don't care who it is or what they did.

    What happens is, people end up getting this picture that all Iraqi people are "blasted bastard terrorists" when in reality, most of them hate terrorists just as much as the USA. The media has a history of turning the truth into a false generalization of reality. It is disgusting if you think about it.
     
  10. InfiniteSeven

    InfiniteSeven

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    111
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    Hmm I don't recall the media saying anything about the USA being a holy nation, or about Iraq being a evil nation. And for your information, do NOT consider me as being swayed by the media. I despise them a lot more than you believe.

    And I utterly hate it when people disrespect most soldiers as people who don't deserve a thing, when infact they put themselves in constant danger for what they believe is usually right.

    Again, I don't recall anyone calling the soldiers as a perfect being or the killer as a "ruthless bastard terrorist". But he might be a hero if he did do something like save lives through that one kill, which doesn't have to be a innocent person. But the fact is, you DON'T KNOW what the situation was either, so you can't assume that the stories are all untrue unless you actually witnessed the event.

    If they killed a innocent person on purpose then yes they don't deserve to be honored. But just remember that you can't categorise everyone as innocent.

    I can see why you think its disgusting but I never recall the media calling ALL Iraqi people, "blasted bastard terrorists". And you seem to be generalising people who listen to the media as people who become racist towards a particular race. Not everyone is like that. But I do agree that the media has turned many truths into false realities, but again, you seem to be generalising everything the media does as twisting the truth into false realities, which I don't think is very smart, and it seems to be rather hypocritical.

    In anycase, I don't think there will be much point arguing, we each have different perspectives and we've pointed them out already. I respect your views and I don't plan on trying to change them, but I ask of you to respect my views on this subject, since I doubt you'll convince me.
     
  11. DarkIron Dwarf

    DarkIron Dwarf

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    458
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    Dang man just watched all the videos. Those guys just turned out to be Car robbers and the rumor false, I don't think i would have the stomach to join as a Intelligence extraction.

    Also are the Rules of War even used much any more?
     
  12. Zombie

    Zombie

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,666
    Resources:
    44
    Icons:
    43
    Packs:
    1
    Resources:
    44
    I'm not a USA fan, but it's not the military training or anything that's responsible for these terrible things. We only see the radical examples, we don't really see the good ones. The merciful leaders, the well coordinated attacks and the "Noone gets left behind, Sergeant!!" things outside the movies filled with propagandic content (or CNN lol).

    The problem is in their personality. They simply don't treat these (poor) people as humans, they treat them like some inferior animal or something, which is wrong in the first place. These soldiers are thrilled being in a foreign country, often sitting ducks for ambushes and they are constantly endangered. They let off the steam on these people, as they cannot do so in armed ones, as they usually attack cowardly from stealth positions (mainly because they are out-gunned and manned, nvm) which is very very wrong in the first place. They are bored, very wrong behaving kids, left alone in a porcelain store after a bad day. The US military needs to pay more attention to their soldiers' behaviours.

    (sorry, I couldn't leave the immature part out: This Abu Ghraib incident is the most disgusting one, and these soldiers who committed it should be shot in the head.)
     
  13. Mr. Bob

    Mr. Bob

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Resources:
    81
    Models:
    74
    Packs:
    6
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    81
    Well lol I think our opinions are on the same track. It is just that you and I kinda got some things wrong. (Mostly me. I worded some things incorrectly.)

    First of all, I was using "USA is heroic vs the Evil Iraq" as an example of the gist of which the media can turn our minds to thinking.

    Second, I never dishonored them. D: I merely said that you can honor them to a point. But when you do it at another presumed innocent person's expense, it is wrong.

    And, well your right. You can not know if the stories are true. But, you can't assume them to be true. Nor can you assume them to be wrong. Instead, take out the attacker from the equation. Only put in the dead soldier.

    You can catagorize everyone as innocent....If you haven't seen proof of them doing wrong. So you just expect some random dude to be guilty?

    Again, I never said that the media ALWAYS inflates things. They do it a lot though. That is not a generalization. And, I never said they twist the story. They just inflate it.

    I hope you don't see this as an argument. We are just debating. D:
     
  14. Hakeem

    Hakeem

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,503
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    2
    Resources:
    2
    Where do you get off, saying outlandish things like that? What use are killers in war? It's not like the purpose of an army is to kill other people. That's surely not the whole reason they exist in the first place.


    I'll say one thing though. Government institutions are good for getting research funding.
     
  15. Mr. Bob

    Mr. Bob

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Resources:
    81
    Models:
    74
    Packs:
    6
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    81
    We should also consider our history. (Yes, history is important. Contrary to what post modern bogus says.)

    What did the Romans say about the barbarians? Well the fact that they called them barbarians kinda proves a point. Archeology finds that the barbarians were actually a very civilized group of people. But, we only got one side of the story. The Roman's side.

    Then, consider the Spanish explorers. What did they write about the Native Americans to the world? "They are vicious savages that prey on little children". That caused the later arrivals to America to think poorly of them. This came to a problem.

    Next what about the Europe nations that came to Africa? Just because they weren't as "advanced" as they were, they instituted a sort of wrong imperialism.

    Are we doing the same today? We tend to generalize the entire Iraqi nation as a big hole full of terrorists and very bad people. This is not the case. The majority of Iraq does not look to well towards terrorists. It is childish. Then the media comes and explodes everything. (Not always. But, a lot.) We are copying our ancestors. It is not that I feel bad for the terrorists. They should be put in jail. But, I do feel bad for the innocent Iraqi punished for just being in the same country.
     
  16. Black Crown

    Black Crown

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    282
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    I do not see how the color of there uniform or orgin of there country means anything in this.

    There are people in this world that do things much worse, and much more unspeakable then the following, the following we're.. Just recorded..

    There are three kinds of people in this world.

    Those who fight.
    Those who kill.
    Those who murder.

    Which are you?


    We are all innocent, and at the same exact time. We are all guilty.

    The only thing that matters, is which side of the fence you are standing on.
     
  17. Hakeem

    Hakeem

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,503
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    2
    Resources:
    2
    Well, if people aren't convinced the people they are going to war with deserve to die, we would not support the war. Unless we make them evil, they are human like the rest of us. We wouldn't kill them any more than we would kill our neighbors. Either that or we must be afraid that they will kill us. Illogical though that fear may be.
     
  18. Gamervidsman2000

    Gamervidsman2000

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    73
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    The stupid thing with the USA Military they dont finesh the war they just stand and fight what ever goes at them, they need to start doing something like BOM there eneimes and it this war over and done with instead of looseing alot of it should be time to end it and send there terrorists to HELL!!!!!!!!!

    Lol my idea of it, err Obama aint doing any thing about it yet.
     
  19. Zombie

    Zombie

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,666
    Resources:
    44
    Icons:
    43
    Packs:
    1
    Resources:
    44
    Dude, this is a serious discussion. You can't expect anyone to bomb whole nations to shit. There will always be enemies of the USA, and with that view on things, you could simply bomb the whole world.
     
  20. Gausslander

    Gausslander

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,078
    Resources:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    Are you being sarcastic or are you really that idiotic?
    An army is for killing, that's their profession.
    They're not policemen, they only arrest prisoners of war; war always contains an insane amount of death and destruction.

    And where do I get off? I have friends that are absolutely devastated due to their friends getting blown up in front of them; from shooting extremists point blank in the face - thus ending their lives.

    You have no idea what you're talking about.