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The Idealists Challenge #2 "Mythical Creatures"

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I think there is one optional rule:

Do not often change your Avatar during the contest because that's make Host gets annoyed and lazy to update the thread only for changing someone picture. The Host laziness can makes many mistakes during the contest.

This is optional rule because:
1. Host is becoming lazy or not is depending on many situations.
2. Yeah, Host can't become lazy...
3. There is no rules that you can't change avatar.
 
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360xda.jpg

Too bad that someone ain't the someone you're expecting.
That someone gave it away in another entry. :p

I think there is one optional rule:

Do not often change your Avatar during the contest because that's make Host gets annoyed and lazy to update the thread only for changing someone picture. The Host laziness can makes many mistakes during the contest.

This is optional rule because:
1. Host is becoming lazy or not is depending on many situations.
2. Yeah, Host can't become lazy...
3. There is no rules that you can't change avatar.

Does this really have to be a rule? Avatars are purely cosmetic, so I don't think the host should bother changing it all the time. Besides, I think the host just has to link to the entries in the first post in the next contest. The anonymity thing is going to be scrapped after all, so I guess contestats are just going to post their entries in the thread.


Oh, and if you guys are going to do the template thing in the next contest, I'd like to be one who makes the template. :3
 
Do not often change your Avatar during the contest because that's make Host gets annoyed and lazy to update the thread only for changing someone picture. The Host laziness can makes many mistakes during the contest.
There's nothing else the host should do than manage the first post, so no.
Oh, and if you guys are going to do the template thing in the next contest, I'd like to be one who makes the template. :3
Go ahead N!X! :)
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

I think there is one optional rule:

Do not often change your Avatar during the contest because that's make Host gets annoyed and lazy to update the thread only for changing someone picture. The Host laziness can makes many mistakes during the contest.

This is optional rule because:
1. Host is becoming lazy or not is depending on many situations.
2. Yeah, Host can't become lazy...
3. There is no rules that you can't change avatar.

I did get annoyed by Mythic and GreeN!X changing their avatars so often, because I'm a perfectionist bastard. Not their fault, though it did annoy me when I'd check thread and there were broken image links.

But no matter how lazy I became, I still had to manage 500+ lines of bbcode. Say what you will, but that's not as much fun, especially when you don't get to design it yourself so that you know where everything is and updating becomes easy. But I digress, I am 80% of the above.

Oh, and if you guys are going to do the template thing in the next contest, I'd like to be one who makes the template. :3

Duh!

I am not sure if a certain someone gave it away, but in one entry this appears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by someones entry
Hera
let's see if anyone get what I mean.

There is no mention of the word Hera, hera, Hera_ or whatever in this thread besides in the
lore of Jhesh'Nu. So I have no idea who you're talking about here.

Too bad that someone ain't the someone you're expecting.
That someone gave it away in another entry. :p

GreeN!X, Sclammers and Nightmare are this contest's drama bitches that gossip about which is which. And it wouldn't surprise if they got which entry is which from the start. You're good guys. But we will see after the poll is over and I have all the judges scores how good you are.

No, it had no chance of competition. Tanks and supports are dull, you know. Carries are eyecatchy.

So not true. We'll see if your theory sticks after the poll is over and I write the names of the participants.
 
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As I've started the ratings now, I have to admit that the chosen theme feels WAY to open. Actually any ficitonal creature can be chosen as a base for your concept, even if it does not feel 'mythical' in any way. As it is too late now obviously I will go with this now.

I think a more narrow theme like it was in the IC#1 'light and darkness' has more than enough possibilities as we saw it as also directing the contestants a little bit.
 

Chaosy

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@templassassin

Anything mecha related I suppose.

@judge changes

After now finishing 8 reviews, I feel like the implementation section is kinda unnecessary, the complexity get punished once in the complexity section and then once more, is it really needed?

This is obviously just a suggestion for the next contest.
 
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btw, anyone interested in the hero idea I made while the contest was ongoing?
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

@judge changes

After now finishing 8 reviews, I feel like the implementation section is kinda unnecessary, the complexity get punished once in the complexity section and then once more, is it really needed?

This is obviously just a suggestion for the next contest.

Implementation and Complexity should follow a process like this. How much does the judge think a user would need (in knowledge and experience) to code this hero in-game and how complex its spells and concept are to implement:

- basic GUI knowledge (too simple - below 40% total points)
- moderate GUI knowledge + World Editor knowledge (the balance line - 80/100% total points)
- supreme GUI knowledge + basic JASS knowledge + logic (over the line but not yet too complex - 50/70% total points)
- supreme JASS or any other like vJASS etc. (too complex - below 40% total points)

Now both of these don't say that if a user knows jass but sucks at gui it immediately is labeled too simple.
Its a "judge's perspective" of the meter of knowledge a user would need to implement and code the hero NOT about the real
knowledge of the user.

This isn't THE real percentage list. Just making an example
 
@jopi which one?

@sentrywiz almost everything can be done in GUI with Custom Scripts. JASS is just the flexible, awesome-r, naughtier mother of GUI. However when it goes to advanced stuff, the complexity level of GUI soars higher than what it already was.

Conclusion: Something being JASS does not mean it's complex, or takes a long time to create. In my opinion, it is a matter of knowledge between JASS and GUI that makes the process longer. Also, I do not think the implementation section should be there. Because look at the newer heroes of DotA; a lot of their abilities have multiple triggers. But that doesn't mean they're bad concepts - to me, as long as it's doable, implementation has little to do with idealism.

Of course this is for the next contest.
But no matter how lazy I became, I still had to manage 500+ lines of bbcode. Say what you will, but that's not as much fun, especially when you don't get to design it yourself so that you know where everything is and updating becomes easy. But I digress, I am 80% of the above.
Yes, it's hell. But in the future contests there shall be only updating that for the contest theme, and the avatars. :D
That's less. I guess.
 
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Chaosy

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The thing is, I have not been giving low complexity score because of being simple. Simple doesn't mean bad design. Just look at LoL champions like Warwick, he got no advanced mechanics at all, super simple to play, press abilities in random order and still do decently. But he is still one the biggest MOBA and played.

@implemention
In fact, if something is simple to import, it's a good thing. Why would it be bad for something to be easy to import? The flaw with my view of perspective is that a bad design could get full score here..
 
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sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

The thing is, I have not been giving low complexity score because of being simple. Simple doesn't mean bad design. Just look at LoL champions like Warwick, he got no advanced mechanics at all, super simple to play, press abilities in random order and still do decently. But he is still one the biggest MOBA and played.

@implemention
In fact, if something is simple to import, it's a good thing. Why would it be bad for something to be easy to import? The flaw with my view of perspective is that a bad design could get full score here..

I didn't mean it like that. I also like simplicity way more than complexity. Especially for heroes like Sven in Dota, Master Yi in LoL.. etc. Just saying that complexity should award most points if the hero isn't just unnecessarily too simple or too complex.

I also stand by that if you want everyone to get something, make it as simple as possible but not any simpler.
Simple is great, it should be awarded with the most points IMO. Not to say that complex is bad, but good complexity
is simple in nature, just has lot of calculations or formulas or triggers while bad complexity or bad simplicity is just
plain dumb and unusable. I think we understand each other Chaosy on this matter

There are good simple and complex heroes AND there are bad simple and complex heroes.
This is what complexity should address - how complex the hero is and is it a good design or a bad one.

@sentrywiz almost everything can be done in GUI with Custom Scripts. JASS is just the flexible, awesome-r, naughtier mother of GUI. However when it goes to advanced stuff, the complexity level of GUI soars higher than what it already was.

Conclusion: Something being JASS does not mean it's complex, or takes a long time to create. In my opinion, it is a matter of knowledge between JASS and GUI that makes the process longer. Also, I do not think the implementation section should be there. Because look at the newer heroes of DotA; a lot of their abilities have multiple triggers. But that doesn't mean they're bad concepts - to me, as long as it's doable, implementation has little to do with idealism.

Of course this is for the next contest.

It does mean its complex. Jass is obscured from the user on design. GUI however isn't, even if its jass what does the magic in the background. GUI is the set default so in my mind that's why it takes priority over jass. Idk maybe you're right though. Maybe we need to change the judging criteria I wrote. Maybe they aren't as good as I thought them to be

Like you say, JASS isn't the standard of difficult, complex things.
The tools are tools, its how you use them that defines the outcome.
 
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well, I don't want to disappoint you, but I gonna need until friday to finish my ratings. I'm having a pretty busy week atm....
 

Kyrbi0

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well, I don't want to disappoint you, but I gonna need until friday to finish my ratings. I'm having a pretty busy week atm....
Take your time, man. Rushed Judging is Bad Judging. : )


sentrywiz said:
If you lose a family member, the last thing you will care about is some random contest on a random forum made by and for random people that somehow co-exist in that random place. You're using hard terms like death, stress, real-life as a crutch to support your victim theory. And I just don't buy it. There are no excuses for not doing something other than that you don't have enough motivation. If you want something so badly, trust me you will find a way to get or replace it.
Thanks for the assumption. : /
I'm not saying all people are like that; I'm not saying all situations would warrant that. I'm not saying all the people who fail the meet the deadline have that as a (legitimate) excuse.

I'm merely saying that some people may miss deadlines for reasons outside of laziness, procrastination, or lack of motivation; reasons that might even be serious (as aforementioned).

You sound incredulous; believe me, there are plenty of people for whom the Internet (and, by extension, plausibly this site) are a real source of comfort/self-esteem/empowerment (and not in the "e-peen" kinda way). These people, despite personal tragedy, still have a vested interest in, say, a Contest they had entered; they have invested a bit of themselves in it & wish to see it to completion. ~ Others I know of have excessively restrictive schedules; schedules where they may have 1 or 2 days in a given week(s) to actually do some modding. And if that/those day(s) are taken up with a car accident, or a strange malady, or an unexpected death in the family... That is very real.

Once again, there's no "me using this as a crutch", nor do I have some sort of "victim theory" which you claim. I have never said that I have had to deal with any of the above (personal tragedy, excessively stringent schedules, etc); instead, I have made it clear time & again that I do, honestly, suffer from procrastination and lack of motivation. I know it. It's a big problem. It constrains me from a lot of productivity & happiness. And I claim full responsibility for it.

So there's no "trying to cover my tracks" here. But there are reasons (not 'excuses') for not getting things accomplished, and all I'm espousing is a bit more consideration for 'mercy' rather than 'justice' (again, not for me necessarily; just in general).

sentrywiz said:
It benefits the host.
I'm not sure I see how this benefits the Host (unless the "final day" falls on a bad day for you... but in that case, just do it the next day, or the day after. No one is going to get mad). Whether you collect all the entries on the actual, published "Final Day", or a day before, or five days before or a week before... It's all the same, except there will be less entries. I guess if that's what you're going for, then there's not much I can say. Usually people (entrants, the host, mods, other users, etc) like to see more entries, rather than arbitrarily less.

sentrywiz said:
But maybe like I said I'm taking this way too seriously and I need to lighten up about it. Still I took responsibility for this contest when nobody wanted to so now I get to press the buttons (for now). I don't claim to be a great host nor do I try to. But for the sake of what this contest is, to enact some semblance of fairness, anonymity and justification I will stick to my guns until IC #2 is done and rep is given accordingly. After that, we can discuss anything about the rules and I won't have a problem to uphold them in the next contest, given that I host it again.
I can respect someone picking up where someone else left off, and I can respect trying to stick to the established rules as they were put down.
sentrywiz said:
For now though, no. I cannot accept your final work let alone your WIP that looks badly rushed.
I understand your logic though and I commend you trying to squeeze in in the last second.
... Thanks. I don't know if you were comparing me to some of the other entries, but aside from missing some information my WIP wasn't rushed very much at all. :<

sentrywiz said:
Sorry but you had all the time in the world and just chose to do it in the deadline time.
That doesn't stick well with my rules. For now its my contest and I make the rules.

You can criticize my rules or me all you want. I don't accept new participants and new WIP's, not now or 5 days ago when I said I didn't. Like I said above, after this contest ends we can talk about changing the rules with the community. If all agree, I'm fine. For now, its like this.
This is true; I intentionally put it off till I had the looming deadline to motivate me. Like I said, bad choice.

However, while I'm not here to criticize you, I am going to point out inconsistency & try to make these Contests better and better. Earlier you state that you want to "stick to [your] guns" and run the Contest as it was left behind... And yet here you are implementing new rules, rules that really only benefit you (and tangentially at best), rules that hurt those trying to enter.

That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't care about my entry not making it in; it would've been nice to see what people think & I relished the challenge of doing so 'last minute', but it's a Hero design that I intend to use elsewhere (*fingers crossed for next Hero Contest*), so whatever. What I care about is understanding why you thought this was ever a good idea; and to make sure it doesn't happen in the future.

Respectfully,
Kyrbi0
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

Chaosy sent me a PM with the scores hopefully. I will upload them here now.

And Kyrbi0 I read your responses to mine and I don't want to compile another list and supposedly 'defend' myself. You have your share of fair points and I have mine. I was trying out some things I thought were okay like the 5 day deadline in which that I wouldn't take new WIP's or new participants because the contest was for a whole month. I still believe this is a good rule, because it pushes people that didn't update their WIP to only focus on finishing and submitting it.

But hey as IC #3 is pointing out, its much better for both the host and the participants that the WIP's and Finals are flat out in the open, without the need for them to be sent and approved by the host. Much better than IC #2. But we had to go through IC #2 in order to see what could be improved, and I can only guess its gonna get better and better with ongoing IC's.
 

Kyrbi0

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And Kyrbi0 I read your responses to mine and I don't want to compile another list and supposedly 'defend' myself. You have your share of fair points and I have mine.
Well, I don't know about "defending", as I'm not trying to 'attack' you... But fair enough.

sentrywiz said:
...But we had to go through IC #2 in order to see what could be improved, and I can only guess its gonna get better and better with ongoing IC's.
This sounds like a good plan. : ) It's how everything in life is (or should be), really; ever-perfecting.
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

Wait a second, Implementation is only 10 points and Balance is 25 points.

Yep. Balance is way more important than implementation. Of course this is for this contest only, it can be changed in following ones.

EDIT: I see your point now. Chaosy's scores are when Implementation was 25 points, your original mistake.

This is kind of bad then, since now Chaosy has to re-do all of his scores and hopefully jopi hasn't made this mistake either.

OR

We just leave it as it is and I just change the points in the ruleset.
 

Kyrbi0

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Well, it's not even like he intentionally "went against the rules", necessarily (as some have...). I don't mind giving him the benefit of the doubt, and figure he just misunderstood or whatever.

But yeah, I think the points should be re-done for his Judging (preferably by the Judge in question himself)
 
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Well, it's not even like he intentionally "went against the rules", necessarily (as some have...). I don't mind giving him the benefit of the doubt, and figure he just misunderstood or whatever.

But yeah, I think the points should be re-done for his Judging (preferably by the Judge in question himself)

I never meant to imply that it was intentional :p
 

Chaosy

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So.. it was 25 points before and the changed to 10? or it was switched in the template by mistake? because I don't recall touching those values anywhere..

I did one review to test the template once I received it. And then I copied that template I used in the first one when I did the others. So yeah, I can technically have used an outdated template.

I am somewhat confused tbh.

@other stuff

I wrote all my reviews in notepad, so sorry for spell and grammar mistakes if there are any. (I am sure there is :p)
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

So.. it was 25 points before and the changed to 10? or it was switched in the template by mistake? because I don't recall touching those values anywhere..

I did one review to test the template once I received it. And then I copied that template I used in the first one when I did the others. So yeah, I can technically have used an outdated template.

I am somewhat confused tbh.

@other stuff

I wrote all my reviews in notepad, so sorry for spell and grammar mistakes if there are any. (I am sure there is :p)

Well people are for redo rather than leave it as it is.
I also sent you and jopi a PM for this and I remember doing so but you still used an older template I guess. Since it's your fault its better to redo the scores
 

Moy

Moy

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Well, there's a way to change the scores but will remains its ratio.


For example:
Atryxar has 22/25 score in Implementation, We should find its 100 percent equivalent which uses the formula:

PE = (CS/MS) x 100

Where:
PE = 100% Equivalent
CS = Current Score
MS = Max Score

So since Atryxar has CS = 22 and MS = 25

PE = (CS/MS) x 100
PE = (22/25) x 100
PE = (0.88) x 100
PE = 88

Since Implementation has its maximum value of 10
SE = MS x (PE / 100)
Where:
SE = Score Equivalent
MS = Max Score of the Criterion
PE = 100% Equivalent

So since we have converted 22 points to its PE which is 88, we now compute its equivalent out of 10 points
SE = MS x (PE / 100)
SE = 10 x (88 / 100)
SE = 10 x (0.88)
SE = 8.8 or 9

So Atryxar's Implementation score should be 8.8 or 9 if rounded up

Atryxar's Balance:
CS = 5
Ms = 10
PE = (CS/MS) x 100
PE = (5/10) x 100
PE = 0.5 x 100
PE = 50

SE = MS x (PE / 100)
SE = 25 x (50/100)
SE = 25 x (0.5)
SE = 12.5

It's long, which you might not understand. I'll post the equivalents, with this method we will have scores very far from the current one.
Or the other way: REDO
 

Chaosy

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Technically speaking, if a user has 18/25 points the score is 72% which would be 7.2/10
aka 7.

Doing it the other way around would be..
7/10 = 70% = 0,7
25*0,7 = 17.5 = 18/25

I can do this with a calculator to all entries in 10 mins, no issues. Sure there might be some 'unfair' situations since you might gain / lose a point that way. However, since the same method is used on all entries it's fair.. in a way.
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

Well, there's a way to change the scores but will remains its ratio.


For example:
Atryxar has 22/25 score in Implementation, We should find its 100 percent equivalent which uses the formula:

PE = (CS/MS) x 100

Where:
PE = 100% Equivalent
CS = Current Score
MS = Max Score

So since Atryxar has CS = 22 and MS = 25

PE = (CS/MS) x 100
PE = (22/25) x 100
PE = (0.88) x 100
PE = 88

Since Implementation has its maximum value of 10
SE = MS x (PE / 100)
Where:
SE = Score Equivalent
MS = Max Score of the Criterion
PE = 100% Equivalent

So since we have converted 22 points to its PE which is 88, we now compute its equivalent out of 10 points
SE = MS x (PE / 100)
SE = 10 x (88 / 100)
SE = 10 x (0.88)
SE = 8.8 or 9

So Atryxar's Implementation score should be 8.8 or 9 if rounded up

Atryxar's Balance:
CS = 5
Ms = 10
PE = (CS/MS) x 100
PE = (5/10) x 100
PE = 0.5 x 100
PE = 50

SE = MS x (PE / 100)
SE = 25 x (50/100)
SE = 25 x (0.5)
SE = 12.5

It's long, which you might not understand. I'll post the equivalents, with this method we will have scores very far from the current one.
Or the other way: REDO

now-kiss-meme-math.jpg


Too complex for me...
 

Kyrbi0

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now-kiss-meme-math.jpg


Too complex for me...
It's actually not too bad...

Think of it this way. You have 10 apples, 7 of which are red. You have 20 pears, and you want the same 'proportion' of red pears (as of red apples). To find how many that is, you set up a simple 'ratio' of "apples to pears"

In this case it's obvious; 20 is double-10, so simply double 7 to get 14. But "multiplying across" (7/20) and "dividing under" (take the result of 7/20 and divide it by 10) will always result in the unknown (x).

Pretty useful.
 
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