The Case for Reforged Resources on Hive

Greetings, on behalf of Reforged modders I work with or closely follow, I'm inviting resource creators, those who moderate their work and the Hive team overall, to discuss this topic here.

I would employ all to leave mindless Reforged bashing or fanboying outside of this discussion. For I hope we're all capable to distinguish between a multi-dollar company like Blizzard and creators who want to improve on what they liked or didn't.
After all, nobody is bashing modders on Nexusmods for many of Bethesda's shortcomings, instead their work and improvements are appreciated if it's good.
full


The Main Issue

All new Reforged Geo-Merge models are being put in Substandard (hidden) category without any review or improvement requests.

The reason given initially is outside of Hive's Resource Submission Rules and is based on an unofficial ¨only fully custom models¨ policy.

Of course there are simple request models like: put a different weapon on this guy; or remove this thing from that guy - that fit into this category.

Regarding other models, were it the case of not being unique enough, or too little of a change being made, a appropriate comment would be made. It isn't.

full


The Case

Perhaps this unofficial policy was first implemented because of how easy it is make geo-merges and their textures for the simple SD models. But I assure you, from my own and other people's experience, this is no longer the case.

- Barely need to mention the difference between HD and SD geosets (some character's noses have more complexity than their SD equivalent's entire model)

- There are more bones for animations, making attachment of new geosets much harder to look good

- Animations themselves are much harder to deal with, in worst cases without any exaggeration, it can take full days of frame by frame bone adjustments for truly unique models

- Texture image are not only up to 2048x2048 VS 256x256, there are usually a few of them for different parts of the model (weapon, armour etc.)

- Complexity of textures isn't the end of it, they're also split into Diffuse - Normal - ORM variants (depending on changes done to the main one, others have to be altered as well)

- And finally we might never see fully custom models that will blend in perfectly with the rest. The issue is normal maps, that are currently not working in Reforged, although we are trying our best to fix this for the past months...

All of that being said, it takes a great amount of time to create many of these Reforged models.
Some of them might be simple edits, only suitable for personal requests, and hiding them from the community is good.
While others not only took days of work, but are generally liked by the community and aim to add variety (such as references from WoW, lore-friendly additions to different orcish clans, human kingdoms and what not).

full


Conclusions

So in the end, we'd like to ask a question:
Is Reforged modding welcome on Hive? Our efforts being deliberately made unnoticed despite initial approval from community inside and outside of Hive, seems to suggest otherwise.

I personally don't assume that, nor do I blame anyone. Rather it appears that previous policies are not applicable to Reforged assets and need to change.

full


Suggestion

Updated suggestion of UI for model page, something similar could be done to icon and texture pages.

- Top is a 1 choice button to show for which game the resource is.
- Middle are your typical rating etc. filters.
- Bottom are check-boxes, where Custom is obviously for fully custom models, modified are geo-merges (just a less technical name) and other are resources awaiting update or substandard

Best case would be to have them all enabled per default, and the user would chose himself what he want to see and what not. Good idea would be to remember these selections, so the user doesn't have to filter every time he opens the page.

Model UI Suggestion 1.png



full


Note: Any comments made by me below this post will only represent my opinion. Everyone will be making their case or suggestions personally.
 
Last edited:
Personal opinion

It is obviously harder for map creators to find any Reforged assets on Hive when it's hidden. If the moderation truly thinks that most of the highly rated and liked assets are still substandard, I would ask for them to at least put a suggestion on what is to be improved. However the ¨no-geo-merge at all¨¨ policy simply doesn't work for the above mentioned reasons. I could make examples for resources by other creators I personally think deserve to be seen the most, but it's for themselves to decide whether they want to comment or not.


My suggestion

If the moderation team thinks that fully custom models deserve a spot above the rest (which I mostly agree with), make a different category, but don't hide good Reforged geo-merge models.


I understand that we're all making this for no payment and out of our free time, just wish that a better solution would be in place.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
While I appreciate the work and ambition of the new age modelling that is Reforged, at the end of the day, week, month or year, no matter how long a model edit takes, it is just an edit. I am for quality and with that creativity and originality, especially the last one.
Indeed, some of these Reforged edits might be more appropriate to the Approved section but I'm not a modeller so I can't give a fully objective comment on that.

The issue is that Substandard has become a slum. It needs more visibility.
One way would be to add a feature to see both Approved and Substandard or one of them at choice. Currently, you can only choose one of them, if you don't use the search engine that is, but to do so, it's a hassle if you're not accustomed with it/a reviewer/moderator.
 
While I appreciate the work and ambition of the new age modelling that is Reforged, at the end of the day, week, month or year, no matter how long a model edit takes, it is just an edit. I am for quality and with that creativity and originality, especially the last one.
Indeed, some of these Reforged edits might be more appropriate to the Approved section but I'm not a modeller so I can't give a fully objective comment on that.

The issue is that Substandard has become a slum. It needs more visibility.
One way would be to add a feature to see both Approved and Substandard or one of them at choice. Currently, you can only choose one of them, if you don't use the search engine that is, but to do so, it's a hassle if you're not accustomed with it/a reviewer/moderator.

It is a quite a unique policy to modding in general, to put ALL edits as not worth anyone's gaze.
If it would be compared to other modding communities of let's say Skyrim or Fallout, many of the best and most liked mods would simply not exist.
Of course modelling, texturing and animating from scratch is in most cases much more original.
But having to ¨protect¨ them by simply hiding high quality and original edits is not a good solution, and simply says all geo-merge models are ¨polluting¨ valuable space on front page, and should better not exist on* Hive.
 
Last edited:

Retera

Tool Reviewer
Level 34
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,232
What exactly is the line that defines a geomerge, anyway?

Owl Moon Priestess Reforged

This above model was approved, and I always thought it was because moderators (like me) thought it was a cool model. I spent 5-8 hours making and tweaking it. But at the end of the day, it's just a Priestess of the Moon elf geomerged to a Snowy Owl.

So, where do we draw the line? If I had not edited the PotM animations by hand, would that have made it substandard?
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 36
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
8,795
I hope this is the final nail in the coffin for everyone else like it is for me, re: the naming of the different Resource sections. Once and for all, I see a problem that largely would be a non-issue, were it not for the very simple & *eminently* solvable issue of naming: "Substandard" is a bad name with unfortunate but entirely avoidable connotations.

We need to rename "Substandard" -> "Approved" or "Satisfactory", and then the current "Approved" section could be, say, -> "Premier", "Advanced", "Showcase", "Meritorious", "Reputable", "Exemplary", "Accomplished", "Expert", "High-Quality", "Superb", "First-Rate", "Top-Notch", "Recommended", or "Fine".

(This if course, coupled with making it not hidden by default)

~~~

I'm well-known among the community for being against Reforged specifically due to the new look (more because of all the "Classic" resources it largely relegates to the dust-bin, & how it fractures the custom-asset-creating community). However, I do not wish for the hard work of these modelers to go unnoticed.

I might personally wish it was more obvious which were Reforged & which weren't (like in the title), but I suppose eventually that might get onerous to read through.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
I hope this is the final nail in the coffin for everyone else like it is for me, re: the naming of the different Resource sections. Once and for all, I see a problem that largely would be a non-issue, were it not for the very simple & *eminently* solvable issue of naming: "Substandard" is a bad name with unfortunate but entirely avoidable connotations.
Let's leave the social justice warrior card out of this.
This has nothing to do with the resources being in a category called Substandard. It's about resources in Substandard not being easily accessible as Approved ones.
We need to rename "Substandard" -> "Approved" or "Satisfactory", and then the current "Approved" section could be, say, -> "Premier", "Advanced", "Showcase", "Meritorious", "Reputable", "Exemplary", "Accomplished", "Expert", "High-Quality", "Superb", "First-Rate", "Top-Notch", "Recommended", or "Fine".
Yeah, sure that would solve all our problems, renaming everything instead.
I might personally wish it was more obvious which were Reforged & which weren't (like in the title), but I suppose eventually that might get onerous to read through.
They have a tag but I guess a thread title tag would also be a good idea.
 
Last edited:
I am personally for a different Section altogether. A Reforged Section. Completely Separate from the SD section. With it's own set of rules and guidelines.

Agreed, it's a bit of a mess that SD get mixed together with reforged assets and substandard needs to be revisited for reforged assets.
Custom models that are on the same level of quality as blizzard models should not be called "substandard" as if they contain flaws and then be instantly hidden.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
Custom models that are on the same level of quality as blizzard models should not be called "substandard" as if they contain flaws and then be instantly hidden.
Substandard is not only about the functional part.
And it's not same level of Blizzard quality. It is modified Blizzard models.
But yeah, a separate Reforged section would be very helpful when searching/browsing for stuff.
If anything - what this forum needs is further consolidation, not the opposite. A tag (as-is) should be more than sufficient to filter the relevant resources.
Yeah, what the site actually needs is a better interface for resource browsing.
 
Level 10
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Messages
581
My personal argument for Substandard section was that, we needed to NOT be redirected to Approved models when we search there.

All i know is that Ralle might be working on a major overhaul of Hive and he might include features like not being redirected to Approved when you're searching in Substandard section.

As for Reforged models in Substandard section i agree with the saying that, regardless of the amount of hours put into editing something, if the end result is just a "slightly" different look and no real creative merging of existing material. i don't see how it should be approved. Classic or Reforged.

- Maybe Blizzard should have chosen a more humble visual overhaul so model makers would have an easier time doing this stuff, by doing that Blizzard would have recreated the situation with Classic models and SD, expect in HD. i did talk with a model making friend of mine and he said the models are too excessive for the game. but what's done is done and i don't want to make any straw man arguments here.

And as for the whole stuff regarding an entire new section just for Reforged, i don't agree with this. i would agree togather with @Kybir0 that Reforged and Classic models, maps, and such should be JUDGED split apart from eachother, but can't say i agree with having entirely new models section just for RF. (Though a Reforged tag in searching is fine by me, just like many other tags we have)

One of my and many other map makers most favorite models as those of Ujimasa Hojos making, most of his models are sent in Substandard section but he provides extreme levels of verity and creative new takes on existing models, something that other models with greater quality just can't compete with in terms of having the time to sit down and do ALL of that stuff.
 

InsaneMonster

Hosted Project: W3RR
Level 16
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
240
The problem is the fact that substandard hides what you are doing. We need substandard to not hide people work. The search function is very bad in the site. If substandard did not hide, the problem would not exists. I don't care if you judge my work substandard, it's fine. I care if my work is hidden. Still, I'm working to make it standard. But not being hidden in the meanwhile would be great. And I think this is only what even the modelers would like for their assets.

Yeah, it's strange as you could do a sort of comparison with some edited maps that get approved.

Don't talk to me about edited maps getting approved :p
 
Last edited:

Retera

Tool Reviewer
Level 34
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,232
The other quirk to handling this, remember, is SD models in Reforged format. Remember that if you export the classic SD footman model from Reforged, upload it to the Hive, and someone downloads it and imports it into a pre-Reforged world editor, or into tools like Magos or Mdlvis, the model will fail to load.

So if we wanted to act in a way informed by the data format, it would not actually be all that crazy to have a Reforged page for viewing Reforged assets. (Specifically, MDX format version 1000 assets) That way even if they were SD assets, but in the Reforged format, then you'd know if you downloaded them from the Reforged search page that they wouldn't work in your older game client.
 
Level 2
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
4
I've been playing around with editing HD models, and I found out right away that most reforged content is marked substandard almost instantly. In my case, my models are actually just that. But I've looked through the models on here, and can tell people are using Blender and Photoshop to make some pretty high quality material. I don't think it's really fair for them to get less than 60 downloads on something that should be up on the front page.

Make a reforged tab? Idk. I feel like people should be fine with SD and HD models occupying the same search space, but then again Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.

 
Remember the SC2 section? Yeah, me neither, however I do remember SC2 resources weren't mixed with wc3 ones. Same should apply for reforged. Reforged should have its own section.

To have geoset merge approved, the result has to be creative and distinctive enough from source meshes. Time spent to create geoset merge is irrelevant if the results aren't showing it. Most of the reforged models posted on website so far were simple geoset merges, many of them visually not offering some new qualities to the model they were based upon.
I suggest to link the resources in question, geoset merges in substandard which should be approved, to give an example on what is described in above posts.
 
Level 23
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
3,414
Heck, just an entirely separate dimension. Just partition off this dimension & leave all the Reforged stuff in the other one. ^_^
So reforged models, reforged skins and reforged icons (I hope I'm not forgetting anyone's school of art). Are the activity levels in 2020 truly justifying this kind of separation?

Oh and what about maps, since a map can be SD- and HD-only should they also be segregated (if nothing else to be consistent with the separation between SD and HD art)?
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
Don't talk to me about edited maps getting approved
We're extremely careful with Blizzard map edits. Yours is on the right track.
Also, campaigns usually are taken into consideration when they have more maps, not in alpha-beta phase.
but then again Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.
But was he guilty?
or a separate page? "Hiveworkshop Reforged"
Well now... that's straight up segregation...
Heck, just an entirely separate dimension. Just partition off this dimension & leave all the Reforged stuff in the other one. ^_^
Reforged does not exist kappa.
 
Quick note regarding geo-merges or modified models:
If it took a lot of effort to make a model that the community deems useful it has to be in the equation of it's approval.
Currently there is no approval for Reforged geo-merge models at all. Only the first few weeks there even was a review, now it's just a blatant hiding of them.
I'm repeating myself again , but yes, there are very simple edits and clear request model only useful to a few people, but it's not every Reforged model, and many of them deserve a review at least.

@Archian
There was talk about altering some existing categories for Reforged and what not.
So instead of me just looking like I'm nagging, I'd like to make a simple suggestion:


Model UI Suggestion 1.png




So, what's the difference between Approved and Custom?
Substandard doesn't exist anymore?
What's Other?
It's a checkbox clearly, so people can decide for themselves what they want to see and what not, instead of mods having to hide geo-merge models to spotlight custom models.
It would be smart to have all checked per default, and the used can decide later on.

Custom is custom models

Modified Models is geo-merge models.. just sounds a bit less technical?

Approved is checked is the user wants to see .. you guessed it, approved models.

Other is for waiting for approval, changes or ¨substandard¨.
 
Last edited:

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
Custom is custom models

Modified Models is geo-merge models.. just sounds a bit less technical?

Approved is checked is the user wants to see .. you guessed it, approved models.

Other is for waiting for approval, changes or ¨substandard¨.
I mean, does Modified show models in Other? If not, then most modified ones will be in Other along with non-modified and substandard custom.

Don't get notifications if you edit by the way.
 
Level 16
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
1,181
If simple edits of Reforged models do need far more time than SD models, there would need to be a reviewer specifically for that category so they would know how much time was put into such edits.

Also, one of the reason edits are put into substandard is because there is a belief that people who make unique stuff will not be happy to have their work sitting beside edits, and so the creation of unique models might suffer.

For the model section, the default link should auto go to the non-edit section, and then if people want to they can click on w/e "edited model" section. That is just my opinion, so that priority goes to non-edited models.
 
I mean, does Modified show models in Other? If not, then most modified ones will be in Other along with non-modified and substandard custom.
It's a checkbox, not a 1 choice field. A model might be custom, but currently under review for improvement. It will only show if Custom Models + Other is ticked.
(I guess approved should be removed from my option since it's a default)

Geo-merge models will only be in substandard if existing policy persists.
full


If simple edits of Reforged models do need far more time than SD models, there would need to be a reviewer specifically for that category so they would know how much time was put into such edits.

Also, one of the reason edits are put into substandard is because there is a belief that people who make unique stuff will not be happy to have their work sitting beside edits, and so the creation of unique models might suffer.

For the model section, the default link should auto go to the non-edit section, and then if people want to they can click on w/e "edited model" section. That is just my opinion, so that priority goes to non-edited models.
Yes, only someone who made Reforged models, can actually access original assets to compare changes, knows about the complexity of new textures, bones etc. should be able to review Reforged models.

Sorry to sound crass, but I don't know any custom model artists who are insecure like that. Those I work with know that their work speaks for itself, and are also disappointed by the hiding of other people's work, even if it's not fully custom made.

Artificially restricting default option yet again goes into the protectionism of work that should speak for itself, by it's usefulness and popularity as reflected by community's comments and ratings.
 
Right... so it's basically like a resource tag.
Exactly.
Difference is, the 1 choice boxes above (All models - Classic - Reforged, etc.) could be coded so that your choice is remembered.
So a user who doesn't work with Reforged models doesn't have to select it every single time they access the page. Same would go for the check-boxes.
And of course there would be no need to completely separate the site, just a select feature that is user-friendly.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
Exactly.
Difference is, the 1 choice boxes above (All models - Classic - Reforged, etc.) could be coded so that your choice is remembered.
So a user who doesn't work with Reforged models doesn't have to select it every single time they access the page. Same would go for the check-boxes.
And of course there would be no need to completely separate the site, just a select feature that is user-friendly.
:thumbs_up:
 

eejin

Tool Moderator
Level 11
Joined
Mar 6, 2017
Messages
196
Quite a few of the models in Reforged substandard are more than a small edit though. Should the question maybe be what the purpose of the model section is? I think its to save modders time by providing a library of models to use with nontrivial changes in either the visual sense or time required to make the change.

Some changes might have a small visual impact, but require a substantial amount of time. Are they lesser than changes that cost little time, but have a large visual impact?

For me the purpose of the model section is to save me time. Maybe I could do it all myself, but then I would never finish making a map. I feel that right now some of the usefulness of the model section is lost because of a form of elitism.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 36
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
8,795
Quite a few of the models in Reforged substandard are more than a small edit though. Should the question maybe be what the purpose of the model section is? I think its to save modders time by providing a library of models to use with nontrivial changes in either the visual sense or time required to make the change.

Some changes might have a small visual impact, but require a substantial amount of time. Are they lesser than changes that cost little time, but have a large visual impact?

For me the purpose of the model section is to save me time. Maybe I could do it all myself, but then I would never finish making a map. I feel that right now some of the usefulness of the model section is lost because of a form of elitism.
That's a really interesting point... Reminds me of my work to figure out "the point" of Contests as well.

I actually think that's a great thing to discuss (though perhaps in it's own topic). Do we treat the Resource section like a library, a warehouse, or a museum/hall of fame?
 
Level 9
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
55
Let's see.

Imagine I am a modder, I decide to make a map/campaign using Reforged,
and I go to hiveworkshop, THE site for warcraft 3 ressources.

I see they have a model section, and since I'm interested in Reforged assets,
I activate the Reforged filter (which is rather small and difficult fo find quickly, but that's beside the point).

What do I see?

D8QtTl9.png


5 models. Huh, very disappointing.

At this point, how do you even know that there are substandard models, you'd think that's all what exists
I am in the regular model section and I activated the reforged filter as you expect a user to.
Nothing tells you that there could be more in substandard.

In fact, even if you knew that there are more via the Substandard section,
would you want to use Substandard models? Those sound awful!
Heck, even hive's description for Substandard paints a terrible picture

"This bundle is marked as substandard.
It may contain bugs, not perform optimally
or otherwise be in violation of the submission rules."

Well, alright, let's check them out:
Oh, hey, we actually got 6 pages worth of content!
So how about the quality. We are in substandard after all, surely there is nothing of worth here.
Otherwise they would have been approved, right? Just cheap uncreative geomerges, nothing more!

Let's see...
173429-9fd0bf4d1cea83d49a0427f785961c3a.png
173400-78503eb9c43b7954a50b02b0ae0177f5.png
172464-3ed1b4673de97c77b7d0d01ffed99e96.png

174728-13c57c389442fcb7cf403280af26dda9.png
174730-98092f6084d80af2675439338d8780f8.png


Oh wait, it's just a whole selection of Warcraft 2 building recreations.
You can't tell me that these are just cheap geomerges.

Right now, Reforged models are sent straight to Substandard without any thought.
"But they are geomerges!" - Right... But are they all Substandard quality and have to be hidden?
Unlike the classic models, Reforged is far less forgiving with their geomerges because hey, they are far more detailed than any classic model. And don't get me wrong, you can make things look awful:

176710-f2962b914db455240491616d19b606d0.png


But you can't tell me this is the same quality as this:
177450-7466c0f74e65f64f5678d534042427b5.png


Heck, you have even a case were creators went out of their way to FIX the mess Blizzard created,
as it actually makes it usable:
171129-e69776bf1f2f33e318b060f9480f3937.gif

But hey, it's substandard.

Hive is the most important ressources site for the modding community.
Hiding models where effort was cleary made, AND are useful for modders, is disgraceful and a disservice to this community, no matter where you stand on Reforged.
And nonetheless, it's insulting to the creators who clearly work hard.

176325-c128f7f03604ea4adb15c54f01c8bbb9.gif



As for those who do custom modeling who "could be unhappy having their models next to edits": get over yourself. They can always make their our own little album if it matters to them so much.
 
Sire bit Reforged modelling has just begun.
Many of those you've shown are really simple edits. The Warcraft II ones seem more complex to me.
Would be genuinely interesting to hear an input about thosw many simple edits. I'm assuming you're not talking about the fixed Thrall model.
If you compare the rest to the original models, it's animations, geosets added, the changes on their form, animations, all textures and emission perhaps, what specifically is a simple edit, and how could it look if it was done.. better?
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
Would be genuinely interesting to hear an input about thosw many simple edits. I'm assuming you're not talking about the fixed Thrall model.
If you compare the rest to the original models, it's animations, geosets added, the changes on their form, animations, all textures and emission perhaps, what specifically is a simple edit, and how could it look if it was done.. better?
If it's copied/imported animations from other models, yes, it's simple. If they are made, then it's not simple.
 
Last edited:
Level 9
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
55
Sire bit Reforged modelling has just begun.
Many of those you've shown are really simple edits.

By all means, please DEFINE "simple".

Let's take a look at the Kirin Tor Guardian.

TRSwQbb.jpg


Sorry, but that's not simple. This isn't a case of slapping few meshes roughly together and calling it a day.
Not only were the meshes modified and some even combined in rather unobvious ways (e.g.: Antonidas' Staff in the shoulder pads), but textures were also edited to make it all work together.
And let's not forget of actually utilizing the animation to have a shield appear and disappear. This goes far beyond a simple edit.

Right now, nobody looks at the models and it's moved to Substandard which is label not fit for the work for many of those.

The Warcraft II ones seem more complex to me.

Because they ARE more complex. In fact, one of the Accepted models I've shown, the Orc Blacksmith, is by the very same creator.
Which was reviewed by General Frank and I quote "An interesting model and a well made model edit."

Huh, but the others are substandard. Strange. It's like nobody looked at them.

If it's copied animations from other models, yes, it's simple. If they are made, then it's not simple.

Oh please, don't make me go through the classic model page else we have a purge at our hands.
Simple doesn't mean substandard. Simple doesn't mean "it contains bugs" nor "doesn't perform optionally". All it means that something's simple.
Back in the day some simple models were the most useful. Right now great ressources are hidden away for arbitary reasons.

"But the rules say"- the rules are how staff bends them. From what I gathered, rules were changed after the initial reforged models, and hey, it happened to lead to this situation.
This very thread shows that something is broken with the situation. The screenshot of the Reforged page shows something is broken with the situation. Please, stop hiding behind technicalities.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
Let's take a look at the Kirin Tor Guardian.
That's not one of the simple edits.
Oh please, don't make me go through the classic model page else we have a purge at our hands.
Things changed over the years. We don't look at it retroactively. That's not how things work.
Simple doesn't mean substandard. Simple doesn't mean "it contains bugs" nor "doesn't perform optionally". All it means that something's simple.
Substandard also means not being of good quality or bringing anything new to the table.
Back in the day some simple models were the most useful. Right now great ressources are hidden away for arbitary reasons.
It's not about what's useful but what's of quality, handcrafted so to speak (not technically because everything is in this context).
This very thread shows that something is broken with the situation. The screenshot of the Reforged page shows something is broken with the situation. Please, stop hiding behind technicalities.
What's "broken" is Substandard not being as visible as Approved resources. This is the actual issue and why this discussion started in the first place.
 
Things changed over the years. We don't look at it retroactively. That's not how things work.

What's "broken" is Substandard not being as visible as Approved resources. This is the actual issue and why this discussion started in the first place.

About the first point its not retroactive tho there have been recent classic geomerges approved.

Similar issues with classic screenshot icons being approved and reforged being put in substandard.

As for the second point. This discussion is about more than just substandard but by the unwritten rule that all reforged models get put in substandard because theyre geo merges a rule which is not applied to classic models.
 
If it's copied/imported animations from other models, yes, it's simple.
Plenty of approved custom Classic models use in-game animations.
Substandard also means not being of good quality or bringing anything new to the table.
Except people can bring something new, as a whole, even while relying on extant materials.
It's not about what's useful but what's of quality, handcrafted so to speak
Scratch-made works do not guarantee quality, nor do edits guarantee a lack of it. The issue is that edits are automatically considered lacking, no matter their complexity or visual difference.
 
Level 43
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
8,116
I've skimmed through this thread - I'll give it a more thorough read later, so forgive me if I am repeating what other people said or talking about non-issues. But I, too, am in favor of a Reforged-specific section, or some kind of toggle within the Models section that switches between Classic and Reforged models (models that were made to be used in _both_ or contain both a Classic and Reforged version in the same upload could be visible in both sections). The two types of model are incomparable, the current situation is as if we would have WC3 models alongside SC2 models in the same section. It creates a lot clutter and makes it much harder to find what you're looking for, whether you're a user looking for resources for your map, a moderator cleaning up the section or just someone browsing through the section to see what people made. As others have mentioned, Reforged models also have different standards and systems that moderators have to check when testing the model out. It makes little sense to keep the current system in place.

On the main topic of almost every model ending up in Substandard, I also agree that it's absurd. Similar 'geomerges' in the Classic section gain the Approved status, and even high moderator ratings reaching all the way up to Director's Cut sometimes (though that in itself is another issue - can we even still search by moderator rating? does the DC rating even still exist? do moderators still rate every approved resource? I personally can't find a way to do so). The method of accomplishing something should not be the priority in whether the model is Approved or Substandard, only the end result. Many of the models that are considered 'Substandard' are very different from their source material and are overall quality products. This is a big issue, especially now that WC3 modding seems to be in a crucial revival process with new Reforged patches coming out very frequently.
 

ShadiHD

Hosted Project: W3CSW
Level 14
Joined
Mar 5, 2020
Messages
75
I for one do support Moonman's suggestion of having a separate Reforged section for all the models, regardless of quality, being a custom modeller myself, I've made a couple of fully custom models from scratch and were approved as per the community standards, but I was never scared or felt "discredited" if a fellow modder did a "geo-merge" that was really on par with the rest of high quality custom models, I respect hard work, being part of a team that is constantly making models, I know the HELL the guys go through to make those "simple" edits, the technical aspect alone should give it it's merits, nothing should be discredited as substandard just because on the outside as simple geo-merge, look at our WC2 media album, none of those were simple...at all, and they look good, how do I know? the fans and fellow modders following us daily.
 

Triceron

Hosted Project: W3CSW
Level 5
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
99
I just became aware of this 'substandard' rating after having seen the above Reforged models in the MMO-Champion forums. I tried to find them here with absolutely no results showing up for me.

Whatever system is in place right now, it's not working. If someone as casual as me tried looking for these models, they simply wouldn't find anything but the 5-6 approved Reforged models, and simply move on. Heck, I even did move on since it wasn't worth my time investigating further.

I think some of this work is really well done, even if it's 'just' a geomerge. Honestly, there is zero difference between a geo merge or custom model. End results are what matter, and if quality is what is being judged then that is the basis that they should be judged on. Even in a professional level it doesn't matter if someone draws something from scratch or takes a bunch of pictures and photoshops them together. The end result is what matters. The work put into making something look good speaks for itself.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,523
About the first point its not retroactive tho there have been recent classic geomerges approved.
Yes, well, I guess it also depends on who moderates/reviews.
There are some better classic geomerges creativewise than are some Reforged ones and the other way around.
As I wrote earlier, some of these Reforged edits are quite complex. I'm no model maker though. Did some simple edits meself, however.
Similar issues with classic screenshot icons being approved and reforged being put in substandard.
Yes, that is concerning for me as well. Screenshot icons are not original. It's not even an icon edit, it's more simpler.

Plenty of approved custom Classic models use in-game animations.
I meant, that the Thrall model is not a custom made model and it has non-original animations thus creativity and originality is pretty close to 0 unlike a custom classic model that only has unoriginal/ripped of animations. Sure, many if not most use ingame textures as well but the shapes and polygons are original.
Except people can bring something new, as a whole, even while relying on extant materials.
Depends on the quality of such a "new" thing.
For instance, if you put a Ghoul in a coffin doodad and call it a day, yeah, sure, it's new, maybe no one did it before, but is it actually a quality model?
Scratch-made works do not guarantee quality, nor do edits guarantee a lack of it. The issue is that edits are automatically considered lacking, no matter their complexity or visual difference.
Of course, that's why it's important to discern quality from quantity.

Even in a professional level it doesn't matter if someone draws something from scratch or takes a bunch of pictures and photoshops them together.
I guess that could cause copyright infringement issues?
 
Top