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Techtree Contest #9 - Results

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fladdermasken

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Contestants are to create a full-size Faction of their choosing that would (reasonably) be found in the chosen Biome. This race must fit aesthetically, stylistically & thematically with the other 4 Factions of Warcraft 3. You will need to consider how that Faction balances with the other Factions and how it impacts the metagame of melee as a whole.

The Biome should be either Forest or Desert (you need to include this in your description, when posting the final submission).



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Kingz

First Impressions:

Your method of designing structures by combining units is interesting. It does bother me somewhat as there are missing portraits and collision boxes are off.

The icon color scheme is outstanding. You clearly though about what custom resources looked good together both for icons and models.

Criteria:

Theme: 9/10

You chose Desert and it is clearly evident that you adhered to it. Videogames that have races inhabiting sandy areas often use floating units. When I look at your tree there are four regular units and one hero that float. It seems like a small detail but it communicates the idea that these units live in shifting unstable terrain. I am not crazy about the buildings as I don't feel they relate to the units produced well.


Gameplay: 9/10

You have a standard nine unit combat tree with clearly defined roles. This race makes significant use of augmenting spells that stack well together. Kalem's Wrath is a good example as it also provides an AoE mana regen for allies. On the hero side I enjoyed Curse of Eerin as it effectively forces a group of enemy units to engage at a disadvantage. My only complaint about these spells is that there are a lot of modifiers to keep track of as a player.

Balance: 8/10

As above any time there is a large set of spells that alter units it becomes somewhat hard to keep up with what is going on in a battle. From my own efforts I know this is a difficult process to create interesting spells that don't burden a player. In combat this was made noticeable and that there are too many bonuses being stacked. At one point a unit with Phaeris Piety died, while being affected by Heart of Ash, Kalem's Wrath, Champion of Dust, and Eerin's Cloak. Further there are too many AoE damage spells. I never made it above 75 food but I imagine being maxed out would be a flurry of area spells that would be difficult for a player to counter.

Creativity: 10/10

You nailed this with your use of resources and the spells you produced. There is nothing particularly complex about these spells or systems but you managed to create a different feel. Most custom race maps are so transparent in terms of how they were designed such as a unit based on a Knight where all that was done was to change the model and toss some spells on it. You should refine this race keeping the area effects in mind and submit it again to the maps section.

Overall: 36/40


Spellbound

First Impressions:

Incredible job on the aesthetic side. I would prefer a standard build effect rather than floating text to indicate completion %. You could also use the sand orb model and have it become less opaque as the building completes.

Your building model choices are fitting with exception to the Ancient Shrine. It's difficult to find good building models that fit together even with custom skins.

Criteria:

Theme: 8/10

There is no question about the Desert choice. The Egyptian motif is not overpowering. Often when this design theme is used it drowns out anything around it. Your unit models begin to reflect this. The Earthripper is odd. Generally the unit models could be more cohesive. The ubersplat adds to the depth.

Gameplay: 9/10

I love the Enigma Cube. It's quite a unique idea; Hidden Essence is a compelling spell. I also like the idea of Shining Strike. It allows a player who is micro oriented to do something with their idle units that does not require mana or casting. I have not seen a gold mining unit like the Megalith before that is quite fun to use and all functional. Fast expanding was a breeze. The Desert Moth and Earth Guardian were less exciting.

Balance: 9/10

While the Megalith is overall a good idea it moves too fast. Expanding is nearly instant as you can begin mining even before the creeps are cleared. The Sandling Merge is an excellent way to scale up a basic unit to be viable late game. Arcane Riddle is a powerful passive but placed correctly on a summon. The Sun Conduit does seem over-powered.

Creativity: 9/10

There are some unique spells here for sure but I think the most interesting aspect of this race is the functional mechanics. I liked the Monolith system and cost variation. Ehile unit composition is not bad it could use some work. The Enigma Cube is a goal for fun/utility design.

Overall: 35/40


VeljkoM

First Impressions:

An insect race based loosely on the zerg with a desert theme with a non-standard unit training scheme.

Criteria:

Theme: 7/10

The desert theme is established through the starting building and sand replacement for blight. Insects, specifically scarabs, have an attachment to ancient Egypt so it leads me to that conclusion. The building and units don't really match as I would expect an insect race to use more organic structures, or at least use ruined structures covered in organic matter like webs.

Gameplay: 8/10

Once long ago I made an insect race not that different from this one so I do enjoy the idea of a larger army with fast spawning units. You have five active cast abilities out of your units so most of the combat can be done by swarming units that I know will be counters to my opponent.

Balance: 8/10

I did not see anything outrageous. I think that the spawn times may be low for the damage units can do. They are vulnerable in the eggs and can be killed but I know players would not be as aggressive as they need to be in order to take advantage of that weakness.

Creativity: 7/10

There is a lot of similarity here with the zerg. The Sand Obelisk is extremely similar to tumors for instance. You could have taken more liberty in spell and unit customization. You did however create a way to take advantage of the swarm unit composition through the ability to train simple counter units quickly.

Overall: 30/40




Score S = 25v/TOTv + 75j1 /TOTp

where v = votes entry received, TOTv = total poll vote count, j1 = the score from the judge, and TOTp = total judge score possible.

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Congratulations, winners! Thank you Kam for helping us finally wrap this up by judging the contest. Thank you all participants who submitted entries.

Contest | Poll
 

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Well can't say I am surprised with results. Inferior coding and not having any modeling/texturing experience with only hope of gameplay being fun enough. Though judging didn't exactly tell me on what I lost 2 points from gameplay and balance. At this point I don't exactly remember my own race.

Also zerg were not the only inspiration even though to -craft players it is the most obvious one (spamming insect race). Was also ripping off being inspired by Swarm race from Warlords Battlecry 3 and Ahn'Quiraj and yes I actually did remember the "Seed" race Kam made (I wanted actually to use corpses as alternative way to train regular units like Seed did with workers but I ended up using it only for Banelings... though that idea is like Necrons from Dawn of War). Didn't want organic buildings because I wanted intelligent humanoid insectoid race with basic insects as cannon fodder and humanoids as ruling caste. Needless to say I failed at presenting what I wanted.

Also congratulations to Speelbound and Kingz on their well earned places. I just hope this mess of contest will not end techtree contests forever but I am not holding my breath.
 
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And also because it took us months of what is now pointless arguing over the nature of techtree contests (blizzard race format vs open creativity), most of competitors not finishing their races despite I think two extensions and all other judges besides Pharaoh not being able because of real life to judge. Was not fault of just one person. And interest for this contest was bad to begin with which is why it was pain to even start it.
 
And also because it took us months of what is now pointless arguing over the nature of techtree contests (blizzard race format vs open creativity), most of competitors not finishing their races despite I think two extensions and all other judges besides Pharaoh not being able because of real life to judge. Was not fault of just one person. And interest for this contest was bad to begin with which is why it was pain to even start it.

Just be grateful that it's all taken care of in a lately fashionable Hive style.
So, congratulations for the entries done guys and all that stuff.

Last but not forgotten, well done Kam(truly a saver for those in need).
 
By the way, the reason why this contest could be finished
is mostly because Kingz came up with this to staff recently.

Good action from him, and it can be an example for future,
that if anything is unclear for months or anything similar
happens like judges/mods are inactive, then you are very
welcome to contact staff. We can't oversee each thread.
 
Well can't say I am surprised with results. Inferior coding and not having any modeling/texturing experience with only hope of gameplay being fun enough. Though judging didn't exactly tell me on what I lost 2 points from gameplay and balance. At this point I don't exactly remember my own race.

Also zerg were not the only inspiration even though to -craft players it is the most obvious one (spamming insect race). Was also ripping off being inspired by Swarm race from Warlords Battlecry 3 and Ahn'Quiraj and yes I actually did remember the "Seed" race Kam made (I wanted actually to use corpses as alternative way to train regular units like Seed did with workers but I ended up using it only for Banelings... though that idea is like Necrons from Dawn of War). Didn't want organic buildings because I wanted intelligent humanoid insectoid race with basic insects as cannon fodder and humanoids as ruling caste. Needless to say I failed at presenting what I wanted.

Also congratulations to Speelbound and Kingz on their well earned places. I just hope this mess of contest will not end techtree contests forever but I am not holding my breath.

Reading back I see I could have been more clear. The gameplay category for me is heavily based on how compelled I am to play the race. Does it make me want to play again? For me it wasn't at an equal level to the other entries. Balance was hindered by the cost of units. I could produce so many once I got an economy going.

I'm sure it was based on numerous IP but I'm only familiar with Zerg so it's what I related it to. Your entry was still good, your rating was not far behind the others.
 

Kyrbi0

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Props to Kam! Doing what I had not the time to do. : )

And also because it took us months of what is now pointless arguing over the nature of techtree contests (blizzard race format vs open creativity), ...
Ah dannae, man. I still really value the discussion we had, and though a lot of it is lost to my memory, I still have it all saved. I think these things need to be discussed, ere we repeat the mistakes of the past.
 
So does that mean... that discussion needs to happen again? Contest 10 is already being polled, so it would be good to know whether we should stick with blizzard race format or have open creativity. For my part I'm all about open creativity. Blizzard race format feels restrictive.

How different are you proposing? The issue I have with some races is that while creative it's impossible to make them work against more standard races. One that I love and is a drastic departure from a standard tree are the Goo from Grey Goo.

I've often referred to this: http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=93188
 
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Ah dannae, man. I still really value the discussion we had, and though a lot of it is lost to my memory, I still have it all saved. I think these things need to be discussed, ere we repeat the mistakes of the past.

I don't regret the discussion, I regret that we didn't really have real conclusion (ok and time spent). In the end it was do what ever you want because it is already hard to keep interest for techtrees and non blizzard race formats tend to be more interesting. I still do prefer blizzard way so creation would feel more natural as 5th race.
 
How different are you proposing? The issue I have with some races is that while creative it's impossible to make them work against more standard races. One that I love and is a drastic departure from a standard tree are the Goo from Grey Goo.

I've often referred to this: http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=93188

The Goo do present a fun take on RTS base building for sure. It could be tricky to code into wc3, but feasible, and if someone manages that, then the burden is on them balancing the race to work against the vanilla ones. Granted, it does make judging harder.
 
The Goo do present a fun take on RTS base building for sure. It could be tricky to code into wc3, but feasible, and if someone manages that, then the burden is on them balancing the race to work against the vanilla ones. Granted, it does make judging harder.

They would not be too hard as the Megalith is pretty much a Mother Goo if it could make units.

Part of the issue is keeping within some similar framework. While in reality if we ever encounter another sentient species they will be wildly different it is hard to translate to a RTS. Grey Goo works because it is a space oriented RTS with three races operating on different mechanics (roaming Goo, typical RTS Beta, and ultra advanced Human). In this way they fit together as three entirely different play styles. WCIII has four extremely similar races with minor differences in tech trees. If you were to pick any three and replace the fourth with any entry from the contest it would seem odd.
 
They would not be too hard as the Megalith is pretty much a Mother Goo if it could make units.

Part of the issue is keeping within some similar framework. While in reality if we ever encounter another sentient species they will be wildly different it is hard to translate to a RTS. Grey Goo works because it is a space oriented RTS with three races operating on different mechanics (roaming Goo, typical RTS Beta, and ultra advanced Human). In this way they fit together as three entirely different play styles. WCIII has four extremely similar races with minor differences in tech trees. If you were to pick any three and replace the fourth with any entry from the contest it would seem odd.

Perhaps... but it would also be refreshing to have some originality in the setup of the races. Whether it's fun or not is another thing, but I for sure find the standard vanilla race template to be rather boring. Not to mention, it's more fun thinking outside of the box ;P
 
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That is why blizzard template doesn't need to be 100% applied, those are guidelines not rules. Night Elves for example start with ranged unit and second unit is ranged melee, so point is to provide pierce and normal damage but not strict tier 1 melee/ranged. Most blizzard template races end up boring because they only have units that are too similar to melee units and no racial mechanic.
 

Kyrbi0

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So does that mean... that discussion needs to happen again? Contest 10 is already being polled, so it would be good to know whether we should stick with blizzard race format or have open creativity. For my part I'm all about open creativity. Blizzard race format feels restrictive.
Really? That's a shame; I love the Blizzard race format (at least, for Wc3 modding; if we're making for/patterned after another game, then go wild). If this Contest is to be Judged in any way seriously, I am generally of a mind that such things ('racial format') should be standardized at least a little bit; otherwise we chance comparing apples to oranges

How different are you proposing? The issue I have with some races is that while creative it's impossible to make them work against more standard races. One that I love and is a drastic departure from a standard tree are the Goo from Grey Goo.

I've often referred to this: http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=93188
Ah, the classic "5th Race Addition" tutorial. Truly a beautiful artifact. Some race-modding friends & I have long postulated an update to that tutorial, but never got around to it...

The problem, Kam, is that you (like myself, previously) are assuming that other people view modding within the Blizzard race-format (comparable to the existing 4) as the One True Gift from Above; there are those here, I have found, who feel otherwise. The issue to me is not so much who is right (us of course xD), but the fact that such a thing should be explicitly defined in the course of the Contest.

i.e. I don't care so much if people make those kinds of races for a Techtree Contest, but I feel it disingenuous to try & compare them to "classically"-made races. Have Contests for each, but mixing?

I don't regret the discussion, I regret that we didn't really have real conclusion (ok and time spent). In the end it was do what ever you want because it is already hard to keep interest for techtrees and non blizzard race formats tend to be more interesting. I still do prefer blizzard way so creation would feel more natural as 5th race.
That's true. I still have the whole convo saved; referred to it just recently. Doing so has helped me realize at least one thing: I tried to discuss too much at one time. I had no idea there was such divergence on the topic, and miscalculated the fervor with which it would be argued.

Having given it some thought, I think I've figured out the ideal place to start this discussion that will tell us the most about what can/should change. I hope to draft this up & get the topic/poll going sometime soon. Don't worry, won't be holding up anymore Contests. ;P

The Goo do present a fun take on RTS base building for sure. It could be tricky to code into wc3, but feasible, and if someone manages that, then the burden is on them balancing the race to work against the vanilla ones. Granted, it does make judging harder.
Very much so, IMO.

So does that mean... that discussion needs to happen again? Contest 10 is already being polled, so it would be good to know whether we should stick with blizzard race format or have open creativity. For my part I'm all about open creativity. Blizzard race format feels restrictive.
Eh, sorry you feel that way. I really love the format; feel like it offers a lot. But regardless, while I'm generally a big proponent of explicitly defining the format as part of the Contest specifications, since/if they aren't, I may actually be able to join (granted, with a tiny Blizzard-styled mini-race).

Part of the issue is keeping within some similar framework. While in reality if we ever encounter another sentient species they will be wildly different it is hard to translate to a RTS. Grey Goo works because it is a space oriented RTS with three races operating on different mechanics (roaming Goo, typical RTS Beta, and ultra advanced Human). In this way they fit together as three entirely different play styles. WCIII has four extremely similar races with minor differences in tech trees. If you were to pick any three and replace the fourth with any entry from the contest it would seem odd.
I talked about this at length in a previous discussion (search for "Age of Empires" to get close); in my estimation Wc3 falls pretty far to the "less races / more diverse races" spectrum (the opposite side is stuff like Age of Empires with almost a dozen races that are truly nearly-identical, and the far side is stuff like Starcraft with fewer races that are truly quite unique in a variety of ways). Warcraft has fewer races than a game like AoE, and those races, while following a given framework with certain patterns, definitely have some cool divergences from the pattern. Still, the overall similarity is more than in Starcraft (even fewer races, even more diversity).

That is all to say that I agree with you; in my opinion, the ideal Techtree Contest entry can replace one of the existing 4 races and mesh perfectly. That's just not how everyone feels. : )

That is why blizzard template doesn't need to be 100% applied, those are guidelines not rules. Night Elves for example start with ranged unit and second unit is ranged melee, so point is to provide pierce and normal damage but not strict tier 1 melee/ranged. Most blizzard template races end up boring because they only have units that are too similar to melee units and no racial mechanic.
"They're more like guidelines, really..."
We have had our differences, and this is close to one of them, so I'll try not to derail this conversation too much with it. Suffice it to say I too believe in not following the pattern 100%; but definitely in achieving certain 'minimums' or 'baseline standards'. We may just disagree on where those 'minimums' are. ; )

(Interesting; I had not thought to look at "damage types" before in races. I really ought to; might be something interesting)

If you've seen "blizzard template races" end up "boring", I would argue that's more the fault of the designer (not thinking up cool melee-appropriate units or interesting racial mechanics) rather than a fault of "following the template".
 
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