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Taking the Galaxy Editor very seriously

Discussion in 'StarCraft I & II' started by OverSky, Mar 18, 2010.

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  1. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Which is not how SC2 is suppposed to work in the first place. the comennt isn't dumb. its not true.
     
  2. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    And avoiding the GUI != coding genius, so your comment is irrelevant.
     
  3. BlinkforFear

    BlinkforFear

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    wow lol hes been here for 6 years only has 22 posts and makes a random comment that is very smart... for warcraft 3 that is. :thumbs_up:
     
  4. overload119

    overload119

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    I was trying to make a point; this guy wants to take the editor seriously.

    If you want to take it seriously, you shouldn't waste time with GUI. I started off with GUI, and it was a huge waste of time because I had to relearn a lot of it for JASS. I would never go back to GUI, and any JASSer would tell you that.

    It's funny how GUI users defend their GUI so passionately, when they are either too lazy to learn JASS or don't want to because they have a hard-on for GUI. Most, if not all JASSers came from learning GUI first, and they'll tell you that GUI is crap for serious coding.

    Any serious mapper is going to learn the coding language behind the engine, not the pretty buttons that are wrappers for the coding language.

    GUI will probably be just as efficient, maybe even as powerful as the coding language. But it it'll take longer to code in, make sharing and collaborating more difficult (probably, depending on how they handle libraries -> it's 10x easier importing a vJass spell then a GUI spell), and provide a restricted, limited environment where all your actions will be by clicking buttons 1 by 1.
     
  5. sixbrownsnakes2

    sixbrownsnakes2

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    You're right about that. the part I was referring to most was the part about none of the good maps being made in GUI. That's simply not true.
     
  6. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    Sure it is. The myth of the game designer whose only job is to have great ideas is just that: a myth. In reality, if you don't know how to code, your map will fail. If you don't know how to create or manipulate graphical elements like special effects, character models and UI widgets, your map will fail. In general, if you don't know how to do everything that is necessary to see your map through to completion by yourself, your map will fail. And of course, if you proceed as though you're going to create some brilliant premium map and make a million dollars, your map will fail. You're not the creative genius you think you are, and your game idea sucks. So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.
     
  7. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Cassiel
    Acually galaxy is based off of C not C++ so i would get used to c first.
    I disagree with some of your statments, and agree with others.
    TONS of good maps have been made by people who jsut want to have fun making maps, and put no accual hard work into it. But then again hard work is prespective. sittig at a computer typing for 2-3 hours every day or week is not hard work, in my oppinion, and many mappers make good maps on only that. many good mappers cannot model. many cannot code very well. many maps that are fun require no great coding. GUI is fine, JASS is better. in SC2 GUI is supposed to be as good, to better than direct coding.

    overload: both GUI users and JASSers defend their style of coding. it IS human nature to be defensive of ones decisions.

    GUI may take longer in SC2, but if thats all, then i have nothing against it. its worth being patient, so you can think about you map and gameplay.
     
  8. DungeonM

    DungeonM

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    See here the textbook definition of arrogance and elitism.
     
  9. Fulla

    Fulla

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    Hasn't pretty much every successful war3 map been made in GUI atleast originally? (Perhaps excluding some of the recent maps).

    It's alot more about the idea of the map and how its presented.
     
  10. BlinkBoy

    BlinkBoy

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    Learning GUI is not really a waste of time for someone who has never programmed before. GUI is a good beginners’ language for being simple and balanced between high-level programming and natural language, thus giving a first step to those who have never programmed. It's use will obviously be less efficient than galaxy, however, efficiency it's not something that matters to mappers to some extent; these means that making most maps won’t require high efficiency. Using GUI is good to familiarize the user with procedural abstraction and problem-decomposition methods used by programmers and computer scientists.

    I myself use JASS and Galaxy. However, I disagree that the first learning step for someone is the source code directly, especially someone without any knowledge on algorithms, abstraction or problem-decomposition. Even though I myself learned to program through specifications and Dijkstra’s GCL(Guarded Command Language), I disagree that learning a 3rd level programming language is suitable for average mapper’s knowledge (having in mind most have ages ranging 13-19 and are not necessarily inclined towards a scientific field). Likewise, I think these is Blizzard’s main reason to appeal towards a more friendly editor, as they are trying to appeal for a bigger modding community rather than an smaller pro community. Furthermore, we need to also have into account that most the people that learn to use the editor are doing it on their own with the help of the resources which blizzard offers and, in some cases, from mapping communities like this one.
     
  11. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    By definition both arrogance and elitism are egocentric. "Ego" is Latin for "I." The words "I," "me," "mine" et al. occur zero times in the post you quoted.

    In other words: see here for a textbook case of someone using big-boy words without understanding what they actually mean.

    I didn't recommend C++ because of Galaxy. If you want something Galaxy-specific, any curly brace language will do, since only the syntax of Galaxy is based on C. The semantics is not. C++ is good because it gives you the best base from which to migrate to other platforms in the future, including Source and UE3. On the other hand, NS2 will be here soon, and in NS2 everything is done with Lua, which should be very interesting.

    I disagree. In the whole history of WC3 mapmaking there have been maybe ten good maps. Clearly we have different measurements for what is and is not good and for what is and is not successful.

    That isn't even possible.

    It has nothing to do with being defensive. JASS is a rubbish scripting language. Anyone who uses it can tell you that. But it's still light-years better than what the GUI offers. JASS, particularly vJASS, is faster to write, faster to run, more flexible, and more powerful. It's still crap, just not as crap as the other crap.
     
  12. overload119

    overload119

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    Awwwwwwwww yeah.
     
  13. Bloody_Turds

    Bloody_Turds

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    I think alot more Players would actually have started out with Jass, if world editor, had some tutorials built right into it. (along with a syntax checker/highlighter)
    Programming isnt that hard to understand, asuming you get a few basic concepts out of the way:

    1 it isnt english, its math.
    2 a mispelled word, or character where it doesnt belong, can really #%@# you up
    3 nothing can be asumed, you have to tell it the whole story
    4 There is a huge difference between (parenthesis) and {curly braces}, ; semi-colons and : colons , .Periods and ,Apostrophes , Oletter and 0number
    5 the simplest way to do things, isnt always the best.
    6 theres almost always another way to do exactly what your trying to do
    7 its ok to have a friend take a look at your code

    Really though, I started Out with GUI, and havnt upgraded to jass, even though i know an assortment of other programming languages, and could probably code jass pretty well, if i spent about 15 mins to explore its syntax. GUI does everything i need it to, and doesnt leave room for those pesky syntax errors, that can take an hour to find. Plus i kinda like using only one hand (so i can talk to people on my laptop that sits right next to me, while i code
     
  14. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    Nah I'd never ever use JASS and I hope SC2 GUI is just makes the need for any scripting useless.
     
  15. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    Games do not revolve around math; they revolve around the psychology of the player.

    Skills in manipulating a computer are not the same skills as manipulating a person's mind. And video games are not about manipulating a computer, it is about manipulating a mind. All entertainment is about manipulating a person's psychology.

    Sid Meir makes this point directly at GDC. Perhaps you missed it. http://gdc.gamespot.com/video/6253529/ Shigeru Miyamoto, who is not a programmer, also says the same things. But I guess they know nothing about video games.

    Let me save you a future of being hurt. There are going to be games coming out that outsell whatever you are doing, and it will have far inferior programming, graphics, and whatever else. In the same way, the trend for Warcraft 3 maps is that the more simplistic maps become the most popular. Warcraft 3's most popular maps are Footmen Frenzies, DOTA, and Tower Defense which all can be done in GUI and many of them are.

    It is all about the user experience. The user cannot tell whether a map is GUI or not. The user does not care. The user only wants to have fun. In addition, if the mapper goes the artistic way to stuffs tons of models into the map, the same phenomenon occurs. More models doesn't necessarily equal a better user experience.

    User experience is the king of everything of gaming. User experience is why PONG is the first gaming phenomenon and not Space War. User experience is why every game console that wins in its generation always has weaker hardware than its rivals. User experience is also why many games played today are browser based games.

    One of the reasons JASS was useful for Warcraft 3 was because Warcraft 3 was a mess especially with all the leaks. People are jumping the gun in thinking that because JASS was useful in Warcraft 3 that C is going to be as useful in Starcraft 2. Not necessarily. It is far more likely that premium maps of Starcraft 2 are going to be defined by the unique art and sound assets.

    It is Human nature to think one's skill in something is *important*. But in the final analysis, programming ability is bunk. The only true skill is crafting a fun user experience. Programming skills are only *one* tool to this end. (But it is important to not mistake the tool for the craft. Getting in possession of Leonardo da Vinci's paint brushes doesn't mean you are going to paint like he does. Getting in the same type of technical skill as he also doesn't mean you will paint something like he does.)

    Besides, all this chest banging about 'programming skills' makes me laugh. Back in the old days, programmers made their games from scratch. They built the engine from the ground up. Today, they all use 'kits'. You guys aren't even really programming. You are just modifying someone else's engine. Whopee doo.

    But do not let me deter you. I hope you continue on your way. Along the way, you will learn that programming skills are not the vehicle to game making success. You will learn that psychology skills are, by far, the priority. And if you do not, it is no great matter, as you will burn your life making programs no one buys, and then you will curse the supposed 'stupidity' of the customer for ignoring you product.
     
  16. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    A good map is one that i have enjoyed playing or enjoy the concept of.
     
  17. Pharaoh_

    Pharaoh_

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    I think you are overanalysing this, when you have no actual contact with the Editor. Guessing is good and prepares us for upcoming surprises, to actually avoid false prediction, but reality might be too different and when we get back to this thread, we will start laughing for things said in here.

    You are analysing this too much, because simply, Galaxy Editor will be indeed some steps further than the World Editor, but simply because the company knows what should be fixed. You certainly can't expect a no-bug editor, especially in the state of the beta version. The company is burdened with the Editor so much, because they promised too much to the public, that mistakes are easy to be made. For those who have some experience in coding, even a small coding mistake can hurt the whole engine.

    The aspect of "better editor" doesn't rely on the coding efficiency or not, but the enhanced features. There will be real-time shadowing, there will be realistic water, there will be real-time ground deformations, there will be a system that supports Underground terraining on the same map. However, they are said to invest extreme attention on GUI language, because, like @BlinkBoy stated, the software is aiming to ages of 12-20/25. Seriously, older people that want to do something praiseworthy will actually be persons that got the gaming design more seriously = trying their own engines or actually working for gaming companies.

    Stop comparing JASS to GUI. Yes, GUI users, I use GUI myself, but I know it really is inefficient, but that depends on the effects you want to produce for your game. If your intention is a game with low-level gameplay and you want to invest on environment, then you mostly want a good modeller, than a good coder. Our experience from Warcraft III map making, tells us -even if you find it really bizarre- that, sometimes, map makers don't equally invest their time on their map's objects. So, we can see a map with a great collection of models, but the terrain is just a pain in our eyes. We can see great spells that require hard coding (e.g. physics engine simulation), but the actual effects to be completely unoriginal, e.g. a missile with great physics movement, but a dull damage impact and that's all.

    So, whatever the difference between the actual language of the Galaxy Editor (which I heard it shares Java stuff) with the GUI, the same difference is applied in our common World Editor. We all know that many stuff can't be done via GUI, because simply those functions were never implemented in the interface section. So yes, if you are taking the Galaxy Editor seriously and you are about to invest much of ideas and time on it, you need to be efficient on both GUI and Jass. I see people that are experts in Jass, but have no clue on how to work with GUI. I really get disappointed on those people. If you are a good coder, you are supposed to own knowledge, concerning both GUI and Jass, because GUI is still listed in your "coding" responsibilities and required knowledge too.

    So, arguing here reminds me of the 2006-7, where people had been arguing for the same thing: GUI vs Jass and, since I did follow those conversations and through my experience, GUI is equally able of generating good maps as Jass, but Jass is more flexible on almost every aspect.

    Finally, I'd like to mention something: No matter how good your coding skills are, if you have no progressive ideas, you will still be "Just another Warcraft III (or Starcraft II) coder"..
     
  18. DungeonM

    DungeonM

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    Are you sure about that?

    This effectively translates to...

    You were saying?
     
  19. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Wow, I coulden't Agree more with Pharaoh_, and DungeonM AND Mr.cheese, they have said, all, in my oppinion, that needs to be said.
     
  20. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    This post was really cute. Hint: I'm not a programmer, and I have no plans to develop anything for SC2. Oh look, your whole screed just imploded because you made a daft assumption and now you look deeply, deeply silly.

    In other news, the advice I gave was the same advice you would get from any game development professional or experienced modder. It's advice per the topic of this thread. It's not advice for people who just want to make another generic TD.

    Anyone serious about SC2 mapmaking to the point that they want to make it their job should follow that advice as a practical matter. You will not get an industry job without actual skills. Foremost among these are two I specifically mentioned: basic programming competence and familiarity with common art production pipelines. Peruse the Gamasutra job boards or the many websites offering advice on breaking into the industry if you think otherwise.

    Sid Meier, by the way, started as a programmer. Shigeru Miyamoto started as an artist. They had the practical skills and commercial backing necessary to execute their visions for games, and that allowed them to get to where they are today. A better example would have been Ken Levine, who walked into game design with only writing in his background.

    No it doesn't. It says what it says. It does not say what you say it says just because you say it says it. Try to keep up.

    I was saying you have no idea what you're talking about, as your second failed attempt to mischaractertize my original post proves.
     
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