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Taking the Galaxy Editor very seriously

Discussion in 'StarCraft I & II' started by OverSky, Mar 18, 2010.

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  1. sLsIDK

    sLsIDK

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    Oh god, will you all just shut up? :spell_breaker:

    For all you guys know GUI could be better then coding in GALAXY. Did you ever stop to think that they would make it easier to implement (user-made) GALAXY functions into GUI?

    Stop with the arguments over which is better, GUI or JASS. Not a single one of them (both GUIs and both JASS and GALAXY) is better than the other (in relation to their partner). WC3: GUI was simple, and triggers were three simple parts, but inefficient. JASS was a lot more flexible and it was easier to do a lot of things in it. Typing, for all you know, could be slower than clicking for a whole lot of people who could by trying SC2's editor.

    EDIT: Oh, and I have to say, this thread has gone quite off-topic.
     
  2. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    Ohh, I hit a nerve. Haha.

    I gave you a link to a GDC talk that occurred just a week or two ago, where the room is filled with game developers, that say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you have been saying. Who am I to believe? Sid Meir or some random clown on a message forum? I'll stick with what Sid says.

    You are also confusing the Game Industry with Gaming. The two are not one of the same. Yes, you can become a code monkey and work in the industry as some low level employee and hope you might one day rise up. The problem with that is that the game industry will chew you up and likely spit you out. Since there are so many young kids idiotically all trying to get into the game industry, companies don't have to do much to keep their employees since they can easily be replaced.

    You're far better off creating your own financial operation outside the industry. One you have shown you can make a game and sell it to get money, you have a ton more leverage.

    Anyone can program.

    Anyone can be an artist.

    But very few can make something that sells.

    Uttering "you must learn da programming" is nonsensical because of course you are going to learn the programming along the way. It is the big question as to WHY. WHY make a map in SC 2 editor, for example.

    Your answer to the WHY is so you can 'join the industry' and work to make some company rich. But this is not everyone's answer as to WHY.

    Just because you want to join the 'game industry' doesn't mean you should. Do you have talent in making games? Many people do not. A good WHY is to find out if you have this talent and you can develop your craft.

    If you want to make a game, why climb a ladder in someone else's company? Why not start your own game now? You only have one life. What you are proposing is to become a cog in someone else's machine. You certainly are not going to be operating that machine. Most likely ever.

    No one is denying that programming is important. But you seem intent on saying knowing how to program is the supreme thing and should be learned above other things. And this is not true. If you make something that sells, the industry isn't going to care how you programmed it or if you don't know anything about programming or not. All they know is that you can generate cashflow. And they will want you.

    If you have a dream game you want to make, why not make it now? Why go through all that you say? Gaming changes fast. In ten years, the landscape of gaming will be completely different. So why wait?

    The way how you describe makes someone end up being a little cog in a big machine. The way how I describe makes you the prime decision maker of your little rickety outfit. The difference between the two ways couldn't be starker.

    You will be making games for someone else, a game you may hate. I will be making games that I love.

    You will be taking orders from someone else. I will be taking orders from the market.

    You will say, "The reason why I cannot make the games I want is because of this corporation" while I will say, "The reason why I can make the games I want is because of my very own corporation."

    You act like one has to go through the industry to make a game. Haha. No, you actually don't. And it is probably better for someone not to.

    I strongly suggest you look at my link where Sid Meir says, "Everything you know is wrong." The guy knows more about how gaming works than you do.

    Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?

    Cassiel is not saying whether GUI or JASS is better. Cassiel is saying one needs to learn the programming language because that is what is important. I am telling him that he doesn't know anything about games because programming is not important.

    What is important is the user experience.

    Now, good programming can translate to a good user experience. But not all the time.

    Remember, a game developer's job is not to make games, it is to make customers. It is not to make 'greatness', it is to make sales.
     
  3. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    Trying to understand why Cassiel has issues, I began looking around at his links. This thread of Cassiel melting down over Icefrog being hired by Valve says it all.

    I agree that DOTA is overrated and what Icefrog is making isn't going to sell. But the story, again, goes against what Cassiel is rambling about in this thread.

    Icefrog doesn't really know how to program. So why did he get hired 'by the industry'? Care to tackle that one, Cassiel?

    Valve, for better or worse, believes Icefrog is responsible for the user experience of DOTA and wants to get him for that. And that ties into what I've been saying all along. If you can make an enjoyable user experience, no one cares what the code is.
     
  4. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Well, Mr. Cheese, you continue to do the typing for me. Thanks. I Agree with that completley. Its USER EXPERIENCE.

    A Game only sells because it generates a good user experience. shure, a few customers will buy it right away, but a good user experience is what people look for.
     
  5. DungeonM

    DungeonM

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    I just want to go on record and say that reading this made me burst out laughing.
     
  6. Fulla

    Fulla

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    Well in truth we have no real idea how much IceFrog is involved in any actual game design, he could merely have a very basic 'advisory' role and be making the odd future publicity statement putting over Valve games.

    Hiring a guy like Icefrog seems alot more like a shrewd marketing move to me as opposed to 'hiring a talented guy to design the ultimate game'.
     
  7. CrashLemon

    CrashLemon

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    Wow, your whole post was shit, but this is the worst part.

    There's no fake or real programming. In fact, scripting (which is not necessarly used in every engines) is the process of writing code that is generaly interpreted by the engine instead of recompiling the whole program. It's programming.

    Some engines, Source for exemple, requires you to recompile code (C++ here) but you need to write your code first. It's programming.

    And for your information, a lot of older games like Perfect Dark (one of the top games on the N64) was built using GoldenEye's engine. It was called programming.
     
  8. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    Of course it is programming. But don't you think it is silly to claim 'm4d programming skills' when it is little more than modifying someone else's engine?

    I have respect and great admiration for someone who can go through the guts of Warcraft 3 and tweak and tinker with it. However, it is certainly not the end all and be all.

    Even though I am on this website and all, looking through Cassiel's history was the very first time I had ever heard of 'Tides of Blood'. Apparently, it is said that Tides of Blood was at one time more popular than DOTA (true or not).

    Cassiel has an interesting choice before him. He can either swallow a humble pill and realize that sheer programming manpower is not going to make what he makes popular. Or he can arrogantly attack everyone else who disagrees or, in Icefrog's case, succeeds.

    The greatest game designers from Miyamoto to Sid Meir to Richard Garriot to Will Wright to others all have a type of 'humility' about them. If the market goes one way, they do not condemn the market. They look to find out why.

    Actually, the more I looked up on what Cassiel has done, the more impressed I was. Since he probably isn't checking this thread anymore, can you tell him I wish him the best and hope he explores more than the 'game theory' and 'programming guts'. The guy clearly has some skills and some great potential, and I would love to play something he makes.
     
  9. sLsIDK

    sLsIDK

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    Woah woah, I told everyone to shut up about the programming "debate" and then took a step back to express my thoughts on the GUI/JASS discussion, one that was more on-topic than the other. I know nearly nothing on the subject of the gaming industry, so I wish to not participate in that area. And yes, English was/is one of my worst subjects when it comes to anything not grammar related, but if you want to start a flame war on that, I'd just like to let you know I have the best solution to those kinds of verbal attacks: not participating.

    On a more on-topic note, mind giving the OP his thread back?
     
  10. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    Which post did I melt down in again? Was it this one?
    Or maybe it was this one:
    Or maybe it was this one, where I praised IceFrog:
    Or this one, where I defended him from comments made at WC3C?
    You see, trying to peg someone as melting down is not an effective tactic to pursue in an argument. In this case, what you think is anger is actually confidence. I know I'm right, and because I know I'm right, I speak with authority. And authority is a nice thing to have. It keeps me as calm as a Hindu cow. You, on the other hand, are attributing anger to your opponent in an argument, which is intellectually dishonest. It's a transparent attempt to discredit them by showing them to be unreasonable and of uneven temper. This indicates that you're the opposite of me: you lack authority, and you don't have confidence in what you're saying.

    What IceFrog is making will sell very well, actually. It will probably be a lot of fun, too. I like IceFrog and hope it works out, whatever it is. I just wish his success didn't come at the cost of depriving Eul of the recognition he deserves.

    Sure he does. He's no John Carmack, but that isn't the issue.

    Because he knows how to program. His knowledge is basic but he's competent, and that's all that matters. Do we need a lesson on the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions? Not a problem:

    Necessary and sufficient conditions

    Wrong. Cassiel is saying one needs to learn programming, among other skills, if a) one wants a job as a game designer, for which the gateway position is level designer, which is a job that requires these basic skills; or b) one wants to finish a worthwhile mod and not just fizzle out, because the only way to guarantee a project gets finished is to be capable of doing it by yourself.

    These are facts. Articles by successful modders confirm them. Advice from industry insiders confirms them. Job postings for level designers confirm them. They are necessary, not sufficient conditions for success. You can't create a successful game without programming, but you can program without creating a successful game. You should understand this difference intuitively even if you've never learned the terms. It's very basic stuff, and Sid Meier does not contradict it, because he's talking about something completely different.

    Back to IceFrog: more importantly, he has a truly phenomenal record of community management, as I said in the original thread.

    The primary reason Valve hired IceFrog, of course, has nothing to do with this discussion. That reason is marketing. As far as most people know, IceFrog made DotA. The DotA name, and by extension the IceFrog name, are worth something, just like the Blizzard name is worth something. Brand recognition and brand loyalty are the salient concepts here. The name IceFrog will generate interest and sales for Valve, even if they stick him in a hole and he has no actual input into the project.

    Also, as a logical matter, your use of isolated cases isn't helping your cause. You can gesture toward a handful of people who supposedly got great jobs without knowing how to do anything (although Meier, Miyamoto and even IceFrog aren't among them), but those aren't meaningful data points. More people win the lottery than become high-powered game developers, yet you would be wrong to tell people to trust their financial futures to winning the lottery. The same holds true for this idea that all people have to do is start their own game company and they'll hit the jackpot. They won't.

    Which doesn't contradict what I've said in the slightest. Because my point is that if you have no skills, you'll never create anything in the first place. Go to any modding site and try to put together a team where you're the designer and other people do all the art and coding for you. They'll laugh at you. You need these basic skills not because they're what matters most in game development, but because without them you won't be able to make anything on your own or with a team. Necessary, not sufficient conditions.

    This is clear all the way back in my original post, where I mentioned not only programming--which you've fixated on to the exclusion of all else--but art, game design and game theory. No, the audience gasps! Did he? Why yes, he did! Let's go to the instant replay:
    What might these fundamentals of game design be, you ask? Could they be...the very same rudimentary insights into games and psychology that you have trotted up and down this thread? Why, yes! But so much more than that. So, so much more. Psychology is only one component of marketing, and it's marketing that ultimately determines whether a game succeeds or fails. Nota bene: that's marketing, not advertising. They aren't the same thing.

    You gave a link to a talk that has nothing to do with what I've been saying, other than the extent to which it falls under the heading of "fundamentals of game design," which I included in the original post and which you have conveniently ignored. I'd also already seen Meier's keynote, and preferred Rob Pardo's talk, but that's beside the point.

    Oh dear. No, you really aren't. As in not even a little bit. As in not at all. Even with skills and funding, no. For every project that succeeds in this way there are thousands that fail. Just because one guy was in the right place at the right time and this worked for him doesn't mean it will work for you or me. We are not that guy.

    What you're better off doing is making games for fun, with no expectation of acclaim or profit. But that isn't the topic of this thread. Blizzard has expertly planted the seed in people's minds that they are going to get rich selling SC2 maps. It's part of SC2's marketing, and this thread is a result of that.

    Who are you talking to? I have no interest in joining the video game industry.

    If you make something that sells, you'll have made something. If you don't have the skills, you won't make anything. Ergo, if you make something, you have the skills. Otherwise you couldn't have made it. But if you have the skills, you won't necessarily make something that sells. Necessary and sufficient conditions, remember?

    You act like purple dachshunds from Titan have taken over Earth after a centuries-long conspiracy culminating in New York City's Gay Pride Parade.

    Actually no, I made that up. Which is what you're doing every time you attempt to restate what you think I've said. Stop making things up.

    I know a lot more about psychology than Sid Meier, actually. My two graduate degrees include interdisciplinary work in psychology. So you can see why I'm baffled that you think I want to make video games for a living. Games are a nice diversion, but some of us do lead bigger lives.

    Not that it matters that I know more about it than him, since I don't substantively disagree with anything he says. It just isn't relevant to this discussion one way or the other. If you want to watch something that actually bears on these issues, try any of Malcolm Gladwell's talks on Outliers. Here's one, and in this one he mixes up the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions! It's less than 2 minutes in from the cue.

    Popularity is not a function of quality. Ask Britney Spears. Even when Tides of Blood was more popular than DotA, it was not because of the quality of the map. It was because of how we released it and because of how we built up the community. That community was so strong, by the way, that despite 6 years without an update we still get more traffic than any map-specific site other than DotA's.

    And once again, I have no idea why you're harping on programming. I'm not a programmer. I do not study computer science or any other science, unless you count cognitive science. I study topics in literature, philosophy, rhetoric, history, Latin, Greek--all kinds of things. But not programming. Not ever. I just happen to be able to program, too, and I learned to do it because that's how games get made. You can't depend on other people to realize your vision for you.

    Which was my original advice. Learn to do everything yourself or you will fail. I never said programming or art are the most important things. They're just the necessary things, the things that, if you can't do them, you will not see your project through to completion. They are means to an end, not ends in themselves.

    I do not aspire to be a professional game designer. And if you're referring to why DotA became more popular than ToB, we already know. The last new version of ToB was released in 2004, and lack of new content means lack of interest. Nothing went wrong with the map itself, and in fact it was unusually successful: it took DotA about 6 months to catch up to us after we stopped updating.

    Then do. You'll never have to pay for it. Even if I decide to create something for SC2, I will categorically not be using the marketplace.

    That was the point.
     
  11. thisruoy

    thisruoy

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    ^ now that is a big post!

    and oversky, i think many of the unit editing will be similar in sc2 as it was in warcraft3. Terraining will possibly be similar. Who knows..
     
  12. Hero_Lief

    Hero_Lief

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    Cassiel, you rarely post. But when you do, it's meaningful, proves a point, and it's LOOOONG.
     
  13. sLsIDK

    sLsIDK

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    Wall of text is super effective when it is offtopic, Wall of text crits for 9999999.
     
  14. overload119

    overload119

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    Yeah, crit my heart for 9999999.

    Everything this man says is gold. He is my idol.

    I put on my flame retardant suit.
     
  15. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    This has now become a very very silly thread! :D
     
  16. overload119

    overload119

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    It becomes funnier each day Mr. Cheese doesn't post.
     
  17. Fussiler1

    Fussiler1

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    Could be because he lost interest or he thinks he's beaten by Cassiel.
     
  18. DungeonM

    DungeonM

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    Or maybe it's because Cassiel is the epitome of arrogance.
     
  19. Fussiler1

    Fussiler1

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    I never heard him say that he's above you all. :|
    Sure, maybe he acts a bit superior, but why would he intentionally do that?
     
  20. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    Cassiel use big words, make fun, prove people wrong. Cassiel bad.
     
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