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First I just want to introduce myself, this post might be long so my apologies in advance.
My name is Toby, I'm currently #1 in my platinum division for SC2 as well as the #1 Zerg in North America.
For about a year I've been making WC3 and now SC2 videos and uploading them on youtube..
If you want to check out some of my games here's a link to my youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/perfectionistemblem
There are games vs David Kim and Matt Cooper from Blizzard and also SC1 semi-pro's.
Anyways, I spent a lot of time preparing for SC2 before beta was out and was planning on playing it competitively but I haven't been enjoying the game enough to continue playing it for 14~ hours/day and go pro etc..
Since I went to Blizzcon it has been in the back of my mind that it would be a lot of fun to take the Galaxy Editor extremely seriously and so currently I'm studying hard everyday to become as familiar as possible with the World Editor, while trying to focus on the skills that I think will best transfer over to Galaxy.
I'm planning on treating Galaxy as my job with at least 50 hour work weeks etc (which would be a decrease from how much I've been playing SC2 since it was out)
I'm basically trying to meet other people who have similar ambitions with the program as well as the means to carry out their ambitions. Once Galaxy is out I'll be following every tutorial that's released, making tutorials of my own and spending all day learning every aspect of the program.
Until it's out, if anyone thinks they can help me out in any way to learn important and 'Galaxy-relevant' skills within the WC3 Editor I would be be extremely grateful.
One last thing: I have a spare SC2 beta key to give away to someone I think would put it to good use.
I want to be clear, this is not a contest. It's just a way for me to give back to whomever I think is as committed as myself to learning the new program as thoroughly as possible and applying that knowledge to making great maps.
*Please don't message me if you are not the kind of person who enjoys helping and learning with other people (with or without getting something in return).*
I might post this thread in a couple other forums but it won't be more than 2 or 3.
If you are interested either post in this thread and/or send me a PM with your MSN(I don't have AIM).
Well, we don't exactly know much about the Galaxy editor, except that it uses a single large Data Editor for most of it's functions, which Wc3 doesn't have. Therefor, there's not much to know, but certainly get familiar with basic GUI functions in the Trigger Editor and get used to terraining and making units in the Object Editor.
Dude I think it's awesome you posted here. You got MSN/GMail/Ventrilo? I'll teach you what you need to know, I've been dib-dabbing with SC2 and I'm an experienced WC3 map editor.
When SC2 comes out maybe we can make a map together.
Don't learn GUI. Trust me. I'll teach you the basic of the Galaxy language, and even the more complicated stuff. None of the good maps will be made in GUI for SC2.
I also have SC2. Overload119.tge
I've been watching your videos too! I'm a Zerg player myself.
well Galaxy is designed so that there is no need for coding, and that every function is available in the triggers and data editor. or so i hear. theres not much you can learn from the WE other than the basic layout and operation of the triggering and object editors. and terraining ofc. but the SC2 editor is vastly superior is every respect. i have msn if you want to talk.
Yes but GUI coding is a lot slower. Clicking buttons is never as fast as typing, and being able to copy and paste. WorldEdit was designed the same way btw, with every function available, via Custom script. But it's still not what the higher-end mappers use.
Anyone who wants to take the SC2 editor seriously isn't going to be using GUI...
well it is an alternative to learning c. and WC was not designed that way. in SC2 if i want to do the ghost map. i can edit ui and everything triggers perspective, special abilites without jass like coding. i can make ay spell i want without having to custom code it. and its efficient. or so i hear.
well Galaxy is designed so that there is no need for coding, and that every function is available in the triggers and data editor. or so i hear. theres not much you can learn from the WE other than the basic layout and operation of the triggering and object editors. and terraining ofc. but the SC2 editor is vastly superior is every respect. i have msn if you want to talk.
Dang #1 zerg player in North America thats crazy. I would extremely happy to be like 500th in North America. Anyways... I would suggest not spending too much time with GUI, because if your going to be spending 50 hours a week on learning about the editor, I'm assuming you want to be a good map maker. Hence you will probably not use anything close to GUI in SC2 because of its limitations.
Not sure if you're going to find a partner who is as dedicated and as serious as you are(might be a couple). We're treating this game as a hobby and like a fun activity.
I have to agree with redmarine. you could make SOME money from the marketplace, but it would have to be an incredible map. this is more of a hobby, and because its fun, we have the desire to make good mods etc.
Blinkforfear: Apparently the GUI of SC2 isn't held back like it was in WC3. Apparenty SC2 GUI is Limitless (only held back by coding language) therefore, no reason not to go with GUI
I intend to have SC2 as a competitive game in tournaments, and then if I have the time, to do maps, like I was doing with war3. So, I do not belong to the ppl who should get a key in return to being great mapmakers, just saying.
... it would be a lot of fun to take the Galaxy Editor extremely seriously and so currently I'm studying hard everyday to become as familiar as possible with the World Editor, while trying to focus on the skills that I think will best transfer over to Galaxy.
I'm planning on treating Galaxy as my job with at least 50 hour work weeks etc
It adds many useful features to the weak JASS language. Of its many features, two are particular useful: the ability to declare global anywhere and an anti-crash at compile time.
Without NewGen, global variables had to be manually created using the variable editor. This was extremely frustrating and impractical because of the variable editor’s clumsiness; it would add “udg_” (user define global) prefix that it add to a variable name. Also, it doesn’t expose all variables types; specifically, (although not really variable because you can’t create an arrays with it) the callback.
The World Editor, as a stand alone, would crash if you generate specific kinds of bad codes; instead of properly issuing an error and disabling the erroneous script. Such codes are infinite loops, bad trigger registry (?), bad variable placement (?), etc...
As for actually coding with JASS, it’s recommended you code with another text editor - not with the World Editor’s text editor - because of the editor’s unreliability (crashes), clumsiness, and impracticality. Notepad++ (with vJASS Syntax Highlighter; a plug-in) or JassCraft are a good alternative; anything that highlights Warcraft III’s APIs. I strongly recommend notepad++ as it’s not just for JASS but a barrage of other programming languages.
I would not recommend use the World Editor’s GUI or at least skim it through because the GUI cannot use local variable, it’s slow for system creations, and it’s clumsy and impractical for large script and/or systems. Technically, you can use the “script” interface. However, that requires some knowledge about JASS’s variable syntax. Be sure to skim around wc3c.net for JASS tutorials; Vexorian's tutorial are quite good.
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By the way, since you have access to Starcraft 2 beta and the capabilities to make and post video on Youtube, can you make videos on the Galaxy Editor’s features? This is assuming Blizzard decides to release the editor in beta. Thanks in advance if you do!
We would like to potentially release [the galaxy editor] in what we're calling our major content patch update that's planned for pretty late in the beta to be honest with you.
Only reason I’m buying Starcraft II is for the editor but I’m quite sure the lack of critical features (GUI API, pointers, reference, bitwise operators, custom type definitions, dynamic memory, overloading functions, etc…) will disappoint me and I’ll end up not developing games for Starcraft II.
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You should couple your learning with some crash-course with the C programming language; Blizzard said the Galaxy language is similar to it.
Aside from anything else I’ve mention, don’t have crazy ambitions for the modding with Starcraft 2 early on because of Blizzard tendency to hard-code, not provide useful documentations, and lack GUI APIs support. A lot of the complex techniques to implement features you wanted (dodging spells, more icon slots, more item slots, change a unit z position, hiding/removing the rally point icon, GUI support, etc.) came from exploiting bugs, triggering to create a pseudo-effect, or sneaky tricks. But, many of these methods came into existence many years after Frozen Throne release.
So keep in mind that if you can’t implement or have a hard time with a feature in your map, it could be that no one has yet found a sneaky/clever way around it because the lack of certain critical APIs or direct manipulation of certain data.
Nothing serious or personal, just a fair warning when modding with some of Blizzard tools. I learned that the hard way, I wanted to create an epic random terrain generation engine, but there wasn’t any cliff and ramp API . I’ve tried to bypass the limitation by using very high hill and setting the ground to unwalkable to simulate cliffs, but it was too buggy, clumsy, impractical, and ugly.
Don't learn GUI. Trust me. I'll teach you the basic of the Galaxy language, and even the more complicated stuff. None of the good maps will be made in GUI for SC2.
I was trying to make a point; this guy wants to take the editor seriously.
If you want to take it seriously, you shouldn't waste time with GUI. I started off with GUI, and it was a huge waste of time because I had to relearn a lot of it for JASS. I would never go back to GUI, and any JASSer would tell you that.
It's funny how GUI users defend their GUI so passionately, when they are either too lazy to learn JASS or don't want to because they have a hard-on for GUI. Most, if not all JASSers came from learning GUI first, and they'll tell you that GUI is crap for serious coding.
Any serious mapper is going to learn the coding language behind the engine, not the pretty buttons that are wrappers for the coding language.
GUI will probably be just as efficient, maybe even as powerful as the coding language. But it it'll take longer to code in, make sharing and collaborating more difficult (probably, depending on how they handle libraries -> it's 10x easier importing a vJass spell then a GUI spell), and provide a restricted, limited environment where all your actions will be by clicking buttons 1 by 1.
Sure it is. The myth of the game designer whose only job is to have great ideas is just that: a myth. In reality, if you don't know how to code, your map will fail. If you don't know how to create or manipulate graphical elements like special effects, character models and UI widgets, your map will fail. In general, if you don't know how to do everything that is necessary to see your map through to completion by yourself, your map will fail. And of course, if you proceed as though you're going to create some brilliant premium map and make a million dollars, your map will fail. You're not the creative genius you think you are, and your game idea sucks. So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.
Cassiel
Acually galaxy is based off of C not C++ so i would get used to c first.
I disagree with some of your statments, and agree with others.
TONS of good maps have been made by people who jsut want to have fun making maps, and put no accual hard work into it. But then again hard work is prespective. sittig at a computer typing for 2-3 hours every day or week is not hard work, in my oppinion, and many mappers make good maps on only that. many good mappers cannot model. many cannot code very well. many maps that are fun require no great coding. GUI is fine, JASS is better. in SC2 GUI is supposed to be as good, to better than direct coding.
overload: both GUI users and JASSers defend their style of coding. it IS human nature to be defensive of ones decisions.
GUI may take longer in SC2, but if thats all, then i have nothing against it. its worth being patient, so you can think about you map and gameplay.
Sure it is. The myth of the game designer whose only job is to have great ideas is just that: a myth. In reality, if you don't know how to code, your map will fail. If you don't know how to create or manipulate graphical elements like special effects, character models and UI widgets, your map will fail. In general, if you don't know how to do everything that is necessary to see your map through to completion by yourself, your map will fail. And of course, if you proceed as though you're going to create some brilliant premium map and make a million dollars, your map will fail. You're not the creative genius you think you are, and your game idea sucks. So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.
Learning GUI is not really a waste of time for someone who has never programmed before. GUI is a good beginners’ language for being simple and balanced between high-level programming and natural language, thus giving a first step to those who have never programmed. It's use will obviously be less efficient than galaxy, however, efficiency it's not something that matters to mappers to some extent; these means that making most maps won’t require high efficiency. Using GUI is good to familiarize the user with procedural abstraction and problem-decomposition methods used by programmers and computer scientists.
I myself use JASS and Galaxy. However, I disagree that the first learning step for someone is the source code directly, especially someone without any knowledge on algorithms, abstraction or problem-decomposition. Even though I myself learned to program through specifications and Dijkstra’s GCL(Guarded Command Language), I disagree that learning a 3rd level programming language is suitable for average mapper’s knowledge (having in mind most have ages ranging 13-19 and are not necessarily inclined towards a scientific field). Likewise, I think these is Blizzard’s main reason to appeal towards a more friendly editor, as they are trying to appeal for a bigger modding community rather than an smaller pro community. Furthermore, we need to also have into account that most the people that learn to use the editor are doing it on their own with the help of the resources which blizzard offers and, in some cases, from mapping communities like this one.
By definition both arrogance and elitism are egocentric. "Ego" is Latin for "I." The words "I," "me," "mine" et al. occur zero times in the post you quoted.
In other words: see here for a textbook case of someone using big-boy words without understanding what they actually mean.
I didn't recommend C++ because of Galaxy. If you want something Galaxy-specific, any curly brace language will do, since only the syntax of Galaxy is based on C. The semantics is not. C++ is good because it gives you the best base from which to migrate to other platforms in the future, including Source and UE3. On the other hand, NS2 will be here soon, and in NS2 everything is done with Lua, which should be very interesting.
I disagree. In the whole history of WC3 mapmaking there have been maybe ten good maps. Clearly we have different measurements for what is and is not good and for what is and is not successful.
It has nothing to do with being defensive. JASS is a rubbish scripting language. Anyone who uses it can tell you that. But it's still light-years better than what the GUI offers. JASS, particularly vJASS, is faster to write, faster to run, more flexible, and more powerful. It's still crap, just not as crap as the other crap.
I think alot more Players would actually have started out with Jass, if world editor, had some tutorials built right into it. (along with a syntax checker/highlighter)
Programming isnt that hard to understand, asuming you get a few basic concepts out of the way:
1 it isnt english, its math.
2 a mispelled word, or character where it doesnt belong, can really #%@# you up
3 nothing can be asumed, you have to tell it the whole story
4 There is a huge difference between (parenthesis) and {curly braces}, ; semi-colons and : colons , .Periods and ,Apostrophes , Oletter and 0number
5 the simplest way to do things, isnt always the best.
6 theres almost always another way to do exactly what your trying to do
7 its ok to have a friend take a look at your code
Really though, I started Out with GUI, and havnt upgraded to jass, even though i know an assortment of other programming languages, and could probably code jass pretty well, if i spent about 15 mins to explore its syntax. GUI does everything i need it to, and doesnt leave room for those pesky syntax errors, that can take an hour to find. Plus i kinda like using only one hand (so i can talk to people on my laptop that sits right next to me, while i code
Sure it is. The myth of the game designer whose only job is to have great ideas is just that: a myth. In reality, if you don't know how to code, your map will fail. If you don't know how to create or manipulate graphical elements like special effects, character models and UI widgets, your map will fail. In general, if you don't know how to do everything that is necessary to see your map through to completion by yourself, your map will fail. And of course, if you proceed as though you're going to create some brilliant premium map and make a million dollars, your map will fail. You're not the creative genius you think you are, and your game idea sucks. So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.
Games do not revolve around math; they revolve around the psychology of the player.
Skills in manipulating a computer are not the same skills as manipulating a person's mind. And video games are not about manipulating a computer, it is about manipulating a mind. All entertainment is about manipulating a person's psychology.
Sid Meir makes this point directly at GDC. Perhaps you missed it. http://gdc.gamespot.com/video/6253529/ Shigeru Miyamoto, who is not a programmer, also says the same things. But I guess they know nothing about video games.
Let me save you a future of being hurt. There are going to be games coming out that outsell whatever you are doing, and it will have far inferior programming, graphics, and whatever else. In the same way, the trend for Warcraft 3 maps is that the more simplistic maps become the most popular. Warcraft 3's most popular maps are Footmen Frenzies, DOTA, and Tower Defense which all can be done in GUI and many of them are.
It is all about the user experience. The user cannot tell whether a map is GUI or not. The user does not care. The user only wants to have fun. In addition, if the mapper goes the artistic way to stuffs tons of models into the map, the same phenomenon occurs. More models doesn't necessarily equal a better user experience.
User experience is the king of everything of gaming. User experience is why PONG is the first gaming phenomenon and not Space War. User experience is why every game console that wins in its generation always has weaker hardware than its rivals. User experience is also why many games played today are browser based games.
One of the reasons JASS was useful for Warcraft 3 was because Warcraft 3 was a mess especially with all the leaks. People are jumping the gun in thinking that because JASS was useful in Warcraft 3 that C is going to be as useful in Starcraft 2. Not necessarily. It is far more likely that premium maps of Starcraft 2 are going to be defined by the unique art and sound assets.
It is Human nature to think one's skill in something is *important*. But in the final analysis, programming ability is bunk. The only true skill is crafting a fun user experience. Programming skills are only *one* tool to this end. (But it is important to not mistake the tool for the craft. Getting in possession of Leonardo da Vinci's paint brushes doesn't mean you are going to paint like he does. Getting in the same type of technical skill as he also doesn't mean you will paint something like he does.)
Besides, all this chest banging about 'programming skills' makes me laugh. Back in the old days, programmers made their games from scratch. They built the engine from the ground up. Today, they all use 'kits'. You guys aren't even really programming. You are just modifying someone else's engine. Whopee doo.
But do not let me deter you. I hope you continue on your way. Along the way, you will learn that programming skills are not the vehicle to game making success. You will learn that psychology skills are, by far, the priority. And if you do not, it is no great matter, as you will burn your life making programs no one buys, and then you will curse the supposed 'stupidity' of the customer for ignoring you product.
I think you are overanalysing this, when you have no actual contact with the Editor. Guessing is good and prepares us for upcoming surprises, to actually avoid false prediction, but reality might be too different and when we get back to this thread, we will start laughing for things said in here.
You are analysing this too much, because simply, Galaxy Editor will be indeed some steps further than the World Editor, but simply because the company knows what should be fixed. You certainly can't expect a no-bug editor, especially in the state of the beta version. The company is burdened with the Editor so much, because they promised too much to the public, that mistakes are easy to be made. For those who have some experience in coding, even a small coding mistake can hurt the whole engine.
The aspect of "better editor" doesn't rely on the coding efficiency or not, but the enhanced features. There will be real-time shadowing, there will be realistic water, there will be real-time ground deformations, there will be a system that supports Underground terraining on the same map. However, they are said to invest extreme attention on GUI language, because, like @BlinkBoy stated, the software is aiming to ages of 12-20/25. Seriously, older people that want to do something praiseworthy will actually be persons that got the gaming design more seriously = trying their own engines or actually working for gaming companies.
Stop comparing JASS to GUI. Yes, GUI users, I use GUI myself, but I know it really is inefficient, but that depends on the effects you want to produce for your game. If your intention is a game with low-level gameplay and you want to invest on environment, then you mostly want a good modeller, than a good coder. Our experience from Warcraft III map making, tells us -even if you find it really bizarre- that, sometimes, map makers don't equally invest their time on their map's objects. So, we can see a map with a great collection of models, but the terrain is just a pain in our eyes. We can see great spells that require hard coding (e.g. physics engine simulation), but the actual effects to be completely unoriginal, e.g. a missile with great physics movement, but a dull damage impact and that's all.
So, whatever the difference between the actual language of the Galaxy Editor (which I heard it shares Java stuff) with the GUI, the same difference is applied in our common World Editor. We all know that many stuff can't be done via GUI, because simply those functions were never implemented in the interface section. So yes, if you are taking the Galaxy Editor seriously and you are about to invest much of ideas and time on it, you need to be efficient on both GUI and Jass. I see people that are experts in Jass, but have no clue on how to work with GUI. I really get disappointed on those people. If you are a good coder, you are supposed to own knowledge, concerning both GUI and Jass, because GUI is still listed in your "coding" responsibilities and required knowledge too.
So, arguing here reminds me of the 2006-7, where people had been arguing for the same thing: GUI vs Jass and, since I did follow those conversations and through my experience, GUI is equally able of generating good maps as Jass, but Jass is more flexible on almost every aspect.
Finally, I'd like to mention something: No matter how good your coding skills are, if you have no progressive ideas, you will still be "Just another Warcraft III (or Starcraft II) coder"..
By definition both arrogance and elitism are egocentric. "Ego" is Latin for "I." The words "I," "me," "mine" et al. occur zero times in the post you quoted.
In other words: see here for a textbook case of someone using big-boy words without understanding what they actually mean.
Sure it is. The myth of the game designer whose only job is to have great ideas is just that: a myth. In reality, if you don't know how to code, your map will fail. If you don't know how to create or manipulate graphical elements like special effects, character models and UI widgets, your map will fail. In general, if you don't know how to do everything that is necessary to see your map through to completion by yourself, your map will fail. And of course, if you proceed as though you're going to create some brilliant premium map and make a million dollars, your map will fail. You're not the creative genius you think you are, and your game idea sucks. So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.
I know everything there is about game design. Programming is much more important than game concept. I know how to program. If you do not than you are inferior to me.
This post was really cute. Hint: I'm not a programmer, and I have no plans to develop anything for SC2. Oh look, your whole screed just imploded because you made a daft assumption and now you look deeply, deeply silly.
In other news, the advice I gave was the same advice you would get from any game development professional or experienced modder. It's advice per the topic of this thread. It's not advice for people who just want to make another generic TD.
Anyone serious about SC2 mapmaking to the point that they want to make it their job should follow that advice as a practical matter. You will not get an industry job without actual skills. Foremost among these are two I specifically mentioned: basic programming competence and familiarity with common art production pipelines. Peruse the Gamasutra job boards or the many websites offering advice on breaking into the industry if you think otherwise.
Sid Meier, by the way, started as a programmer. Shigeru Miyamoto started as an artist. They had the practical skills and commercial backing necessary to execute their visions for games, and that allowed them to get to where they are today. A better example would have been Ken Levine, who walked into game design with only writing in his background.
For all you guys know GUI could be better then coding in GALAXY. Did you ever stop to think that they would make it easier to implement (user-made) GALAXY functions into GUI?
Stop with the arguments over which is better, GUI or JASS. Not a single one of them (both GUIs and both JASS and GALAXY) is better than the other (in relation to their partner). WC3: GUI was simple, and triggers were three simple parts, but inefficient. JASS was a lot more flexible and it was easier to do a lot of things in it. Typing, for all you know, could be slower than clicking for a whole lot of people who could by trying SC2's editor.
EDIT: Oh, and I have to say, this thread has gone quite off-topic.
This post was really cute. Hint: I'm not a programmer, and I have no plans to develop anything for SC2. Oh look, your whole screed just imploded because you made a daft assumption and now you look deeply, deeply silly.
In other news, the advice I gave was the same advice you would get from any game development professional or experienced modder. It's advice per the topic of this thread. It's not advice for people who just want to make another generic TD.
Anyone serious about SC2 mapmaking to the point that they want to make it their job should follow that advice as a practical matter. You will not get an industry job without actual skills. Foremost among these are two I specifically mentioned: basic programming competence and familiarity with common art production pipelines. Peruse the Gamasutra job boards or the many websites offering advice on breaking into the industry if you think otherwise.
Sid Meier, by the way, started as a programmer. Shigeru Miyamoto started as an artist. They had the practical skills and commercial backing necessary to execute their visions for games, and that allowed them to get to where they are today. A better example would have been Ken Levine, who walked into game design with only writing in his background.
I gave you a link to a GDC talk that occurred just a week or two ago, where the room is filled with game developers, that say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you have been saying. Who am I to believe? Sid Meir or some random clown on a message forum? I'll stick with what Sid says.
You are also confusing the Game Industry with Gaming. The two are not one of the same. Yes, you can become a code monkey and work in the industry as some low level employee and hope you might one day rise up. The problem with that is that the game industry will chew you up and likely spit you out. Since there are so many young kids idiotically all trying to get into the game industry, companies don't have to do much to keep their employees since they can easily be replaced.
You're far better off creating your own financial operation outside the industry. One you have shown you can make a game and sell it to get money, you have a ton more leverage.
Anyone can program.
Anyone can be an artist.
But very few can make something that sells.
Uttering "you must learn da programming" is nonsensical because of course you are going to learn the programming along the way. It is the big question as to WHY. WHY make a map in SC 2 editor, for example.
Your answer to the WHY is so you can 'join the industry' and work to make some company rich. But this is not everyone's answer as to WHY.
Just because you want to join the 'game industry' doesn't mean you should. Do you have talent in making games? Many people do not. A good WHY is to find out if you have this talent and you can develop your craft.
If you want to make a game, why climb a ladder in someone else's company? Why not start your own game now? You only have one life. What you are proposing is to become a cog in someone else's machine. You certainly are not going to be operating that machine. Most likely ever.
No one is denying that programming is important. But you seem intent on saying knowing how to program is the supreme thing and should be learned above other things. And this is not true. If you make something that sells, the industry isn't going to care how you programmed it or if you don't know anything about programming or not. All they know is that you can generate cashflow. And they will want you.
If you have a dream game you want to make, why not make it now? Why go through all that you say? Gaming changes fast. In ten years, the landscape of gaming will be completely different. So why wait?
The way how you describe makes someone end up being a little cog in a big machine. The way how I describe makes you the prime decision maker of your little rickety outfit. The difference between the two ways couldn't be starker.
You will be making games for someone else, a game you may hate. I will be making games that I love.
You will be taking orders from someone else. I will be taking orders from the market.
You will say, "The reason why I cannot make the games I want is because of this corporation" while I will say, "The reason why I can make the games I want is because of my very own corporation."
You act like one has to go through the industry to make a game. Haha. No, you actually don't. And it is probably better for someone not to.
I strongly suggest you look at my link where Sid Meir says, "Everything you know is wrong." The guy knows more about how gaming works than you do.
For all you guys know GUI could be better then coding in GALAXY. Did you ever stop to think that they would make it easier to implement (user-made) GALAXY functions into GUI?
Stop with the arguments over which is better, GUI or JASS. Not a single one of them (both GUIs and both JASS and GALAXY) is better than the other (in relation to their partner). WC3: GUI was simple, and triggers were three simple parts, but inefficient. JASS was a lot more flexible and it was easier to do a lot of things in it. Typing, for all you know, could be slower than clicking for a whole lot of people who could by trying SC2's editor.
EDIT: Oh, and I have to say, this thread has gone quite off-topic.
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?
Cassiel is not saying whether GUI or JASS is better. Cassiel is saying one needs to learn the programming language because that is what is important. I am telling him that he doesn't know anything about games because programming is not important.
What is important is the user experience.
Now, good programming can translate to a good user experience. But not all the time.
Remember, a game developer's job is not to make games, it is to make customers. It is not to make 'greatness', it is to make sales.
Trying to understand why Cassiel has issues, I began looking around at his links. This thread of Cassiel melting down over Icefrog being hired by Valve says it all.
I agree that DOTA is overrated and what Icefrog is making isn't going to sell. But the story, again, goes against what Cassiel is rambling about in this thread.
Icefrog doesn't really know how to program. So why did he get hired 'by the industry'? Care to tackle that one, Cassiel?
Valve, for better or worse, believes Icefrog is responsible for the user experience of DOTA and wants to get him for that. And that ties into what I've been saying all along. If you can make an enjoyable user experience, no one cares what the code is.
Well, Mr. Cheese, you continue to do the typing for me. Thanks. I Agree with that completley. Its USER EXPERIENCE.
A Game only sells because it generates a good user experience. shure, a few customers will buy it right away, but a good user experience is what people look for.
Well in truth we have no real idea how much IceFrog is involved in any actual game design, he could merely have a very basic 'advisory' role and be making the odd future publicity statement putting over Valve games.
Hiring a guy like Icefrog seems alot more like a shrewd marketing move to me as opposed to 'hiring a talented guy to design the ultimate game'.
Besides, all this chest banging about 'programming skills' makes me laugh. Back in the old days, programmers made their games from scratch. They built the engine from the ground up. Today, they all use 'kits'. You guys aren't even really programming. You are just modifying someone else's engine. Whopee doo.
Wow, your whole post was shit, but this is the worst part.
There's no fake or real programming. In fact, scripting (which is not necessarly used in every engines) is the process of writing code that is generaly interpreted by the engine instead of recompiling the whole program. It's programming.
Some engines, Source for exemple, requires you to recompile code (C++ here) but you need to write your code first. It's programming.
And for your information, a lot of older games like Perfect Dark (one of the top games on the N64) was built using GoldenEye's engine. It was called programming.
Wow, your whole post was shit, but this is the worst part.
There's no fake or real programming. In fact, scripting (which is not necessarly used in every engines) is the process of writing code that is generaly interpreted by the engine instead of recompiling the whole program. It's programming.
Some engines, Source for exemple, requires you to recompile code (C++ here) but you need to write your code first. It's programming.
And for your information, a lot of older games like Perfect Dark (one of the top games on the N64) was built using GoldenEye's engine. It was called programming.
Of course it is programming. But don't you think it is silly to claim 'm4d programming skills' when it is little more than modifying someone else's engine?
I have respect and great admiration for someone who can go through the guts of Warcraft 3 and tweak and tinker with it. However, it is certainly not the end all and be all.
Even though I am on this website and all, looking through Cassiel's history was the very first time I had ever heard of 'Tides of Blood'. Apparently, it is said that Tides of Blood was at one time more popular than DOTA (true or not).
Cassiel has an interesting choice before him. He can either swallow a humble pill and realize that sheer programming manpower is not going to make what he makes popular. Or he can arrogantly attack everyone else who disagrees or, in Icefrog's case, succeeds.
The greatest game designers from Miyamoto to Sid Meir to Richard Garriot to Will Wright to others all have a type of 'humility' about them. If the market goes one way, they do not condemn the market. They look to find out why.
Actually, the more I looked up on what Cassiel has done, the more impressed I was. Since he probably isn't checking this thread anymore, can you tell him I wish him the best and hope he explores more than the 'game theory' and 'programming guts'. The guy clearly has some skills and some great potential, and I would love to play something he makes.
Woah woah, I told everyone to shut up about the programming "debate" and then took a step back to express my thoughts on the GUI/JASS discussion, one that was more on-topic than the other. I know nearly nothing on the subject of the gaming industry, so I wish to not participate in that area. And yes, English was/is one of my worst subjects when it comes to anything not grammar related, but if you want to start a flame war on that, I'd just like to let you know I have the best solution to those kinds of verbal attacks: not participating.
On a more on-topic note, mind giving the OP his thread back?
Trying to understand why Cassiel has issues, I began looking around at his links. This thread of Cassiel melting down over Icefrog being hired by Valve says it all.
Why must all the good puns be taken? I thought up "land of milfs and honeys" on my own the other night after thinking about Ministry's old The Land of Rape and Honey album. Then I googled it. Then by the waters of Leman I sat down and wept.
Or maybe it was this one, where I praised IceFrog:
Cassiel said:
As soon as the news shows up at THW, TheHelper, WC3C etc., yes, you can expect that. Personally I like IceFrog better than any of those fools, though, and while he's never shown much in the way of technical or design abilities, he does excel at community building and the maintenance phase of development. The former especially goes a long way toward shipping a commercially successful game.
This couldn't be further from the truth. The only people there with the right temperament to do what IceFrog has done are guys like Vexorian, PitzerMike and Alexander. Dusk certainly could not have done it. My approach may not have worked very well either. IceFrog is like the anti-me, or at least the version of me from back when ToB was at the front of things and I was super active here and on B.net. Then again Dana White does pretty well using the same approach as I do, so who knows.
You see, trying to peg someone as melting down is not an effective tactic to pursue in an argument. In this case, what you think is anger is actually confidence. I know I'm right, and because I know I'm right, I speak with authority. And authority is a nice thing to have. It keeps me as calm as a Hindu cow. You, on the other hand, are attributing anger to your opponent in an argument, which is intellectually dishonest. It's a transparent attempt to discredit them by showing them to be unreasonable and of uneven temper. This indicates that you're the opposite of me: you lack authority, and you don't have confidence in what you're saying.
What IceFrog is making will sell very well, actually. It will probably be a lot of fun, too. I like IceFrog and hope it works out, whatever it is. I just wish his success didn't come at the cost of depriving Eul of the recognition he deserves.
Because he knows how to program. His knowledge is basic but he's competent, and that's all that matters. Do we need a lesson on the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions? Not a problem:
Wrong. Cassiel is saying one needs to learn programming, among other skills, if a) one wants a job as a game designer, for which the gateway position is level designer, which is a job that requires these basic skills; or b) one wants to finish a worthwhile mod and not just fizzle out, because the only way to guarantee a project gets finished is to be capable of doing it by yourself.
These are facts. Articles by successful modders confirm them. Advice from industry insiders confirms them. Job postings for level designers confirm them. They are necessary, not sufficient conditions for success. You can't create a successful game without programming, but you can program without creating a successful game. You should understand this difference intuitively even if you've never learned the terms. It's very basic stuff, and Sid Meier does not contradict it, because he's talking about something completely different.
Back to IceFrog: more importantly, he has a truly phenomenal record of community management, as I said in the original thread.
The primary reason Valve hired IceFrog, of course, has nothing to do with this discussion. That reason is marketing. As far as most people know, IceFrog made DotA. The DotA name, and by extension the IceFrog name, are worth something, just like the Blizzard name is worth something. Brand recognition and brand loyalty are the salient concepts here. The name IceFrog will generate interest and sales for Valve, even if they stick him in a hole and he has no actual input into the project.
Also, as a logical matter, your use of isolated cases isn't helping your cause. You can gesture toward a handful of people who supposedly got great jobs without knowing how to do anything (although Meier, Miyamoto and even IceFrog aren't among them), but those aren't meaningful data points. More people win the lottery than become high-powered game developers, yet you would be wrong to tell people to trust their financial futures to winning the lottery. The same holds true for this idea that all people have to do is start their own game company and they'll hit the jackpot. They won't.
Which doesn't contradict what I've said in the slightest. Because my point is that if you have no skills, you'll never create anything in the first place. Go to any modding site and try to put together a team where you're the designer and other people do all the art and coding for you. They'll laugh at you. You need these basic skills not because they're what matters most in game development, but because without them you won't be able to make anything on your own or with a team. Necessary, not sufficient conditions.
This is clear all the way back in my original post, where I mentioned not only programming--which you've fixated on to the exclusion of all else--but art, game design and game theory. No, the audience gasps! Did he? Why yes, he did! Let's go to the instant replay:
So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.
What might these fundamentals of game design be, you ask? Could they be...the very same rudimentary insights into games and psychology that you have trotted up and down this thread? Why, yes! But so much more than that. So, so much more. Psychology is only one component of marketing, and it's marketing that ultimately determines whether a game succeeds or fails. Nota bene: that's marketing, not advertising. They aren't the same thing.
I gave you a link to a GDC talk that occurred just a week or two ago, where the room is filled with game developers, that say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you have been saying.
You gave a link to a talk that has nothing to do with what I've been saying, other than the extent to which it falls under the heading of "fundamentals of game design," which I included in the original post and which you have conveniently ignored. I'd also already seen Meier's keynote, and preferred Rob Pardo's talk, but that's beside the point.
The problem with that is that the game industry will chew you up and likely spit you out. Since there are so many young kids idiotically all trying to get into the game industry, companies don't have to do much to keep their employees since they can easily be replaced.
You're far better off creating your own financial operation outside the industry. One you have shown you can make a game and sell it to get money, you have a ton more leverage.
Oh dear. No, you really aren't. As in not even a little bit. As in not at all. Even with skills and funding, no. For every project that succeeds in this way there are thousands that fail. Just because one guy was in the right place at the right time and this worked for him doesn't mean it will work for you or me. We are not that guy.
What you're better off doing is making games for fun, with no expectation of acclaim or profit. But that isn't the topic of this thread. Blizzard has expertly planted the seed in people's minds that they are going to get rich selling SC2 maps. It's part of SC2's marketing, and this thread is a result of that.
And this is not true. If you make something that sells, the industry isn't going to care how you programmed it or if you don't know anything about programming or not. All they know is that you can generate cashflow. And they will want you.
If you make something that sells, you'll have made something. If you don't have the skills, you won't make anything. Ergo, if you make something, you have the skills. Otherwise you couldn't have made it. But if you have the skills, you won't necessarily make something that sells. Necessary and sufficient conditions, remember?
I know a lot more about psychology than Sid Meier, actually. My two graduate degrees include interdisciplinary work in psychology. So you can see why I'm baffled that you think I want to make video games for a living. Games are a nice diversion, but some of us do lead bigger lives.
Not that it matters that I know more about it than him, since I don't substantively disagree with anything he says. It just isn't relevant to this discussion one way or the other. If you want to watch something that actually bears on these issues, try any of Malcolm Gladwell's talks on Outliers. Here's one, and in this one he mixes up the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions! It's less than 2 minutes in from the cue.
Even though I am on this website and all, looking through Cassiel's history was the very first time I had ever heard of 'Tides of Blood'. Apparently, it is said that Tides of Blood was at one time more popular than DOTA (true or not).
Cassiel has an interesting choice before him. He can either swallow a humble pill and realize that sheer programming manpower is not going to make what he makes popular. Or he can arrogantly attack everyone else who disagrees or, in Icefrog's case, succeeds.
Popularity is not a function of quality. Ask Britney Spears. Even when Tides of Blood was more popular than DotA, it was not because of the quality of the map. It was because of how we released it and because of how we built up the community. That community was so strong, by the way, that despite 6 years without an update we still get more traffic than any map-specific site other than DotA's.
And once again, I have no idea why you're harping on programming. I'm not a programmer. I do not study computer science or any other science, unless you count cognitive science. I study topics in literature, philosophy, rhetoric, history, Latin, Greek--all kinds of things. But not programming. Not ever. I just happen to be able to program, too, and I learned to do it because that's how games get made. You can't depend on other people to realize your vision for you.
Which was my original advice. Learn to do everything yourself or you will fail. I never said programming or art are the most important things. They're just the necessary things, the things that, if you can't do them, you will not see your project through to completion. They are means to an end, not ends in themselves.
The greatest game designers from Miyamoto to Sid Meir to Richard Garriot to Will Wright to others all have a type of 'humility' about them. If the market goes one way, they do not condemn the market. They look to find out why.
I do not aspire to be a professional game designer. And if you're referring to why DotA became more popular than ToB, we already know. The last new version of ToB was released in 2004, and lack of new content means lack of interest. Nothing went wrong with the map itself, and in fact it was unusually successful: it took DotA about 6 months to catch up to us after we stopped updating.
Actually, the more I looked up on what Cassiel has done, the more impressed I was. Since he probably isn't checking this thread anymore, can you tell him I wish him the best and hope he explores more than the 'game theory' and 'programming guts'. The guy clearly has some skills and some great potential, and I would love to play something he makes.
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I sent you a pm.
