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[Suggestions] Hst and HoT/DoT ticks | -qi and -pet idea | New T1 skills

Discussion in 'Gaias Retaliation ORPG' started by ALEXz407, Aug 23, 2014.

  1. ALEXz407

    ALEXz407

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    I want to say thanks to Zwiebelchen for such a great map!

    After many hours of gameplay I would suggest several ideas that can make the game even more interesting. You decide these are good ideas or not.

    Spell Haste and HoT/DoT ticks

    Spell Haste and HoT/DoT ticks
    The main idea is scale magic HoT/DoT ticks count with spell haste. This will increase the importance of Hst for Bishop's Mend (faster first heal tick) and Sorcerer's Incinerate (faster fire spreading). Also this will boost Crippling Curse, Meteor Strike and Curse of the Vampire.

    The easiest way to explain idea is example:
    Mend have 15 sec duration, Sp x7 total healing and 5 ticks buff.

    After some calculations we obtain:
    tick time = 3 sec.
    tick power = Sp x1.4.

    Now add Hst to total ticks. For example we have 25% Hst.
    hasted ticks = 5 x 1.25 = 6.25 = 6 (rounded down)
    new tick time = 15 / 6 = 2.5 sec
    total healing will be now increased to Sp x 8.4.

    Thus obtained these formulas:
    Hasted Ticks = Round Down(Base Ticks x (1 + Spell Haste))
    Hasted Tick Time = Spell Duration / Hasted Ticks
    Constants: Base Ticks, Spell Duration, Damage/Healing/Effect per Tick.

    I hope it will add variety to cleric/magician builds.

    -qi and -pet idea

    -qi and -pet idea
    Now there is a problem with the portraits when group is full (-qi mode). Portrait of a sixth member of the group is not displayed. I suggest two solutions to this problem:

    First solution
    Remove backpacks portraits (F2, F3) in this mode. But how to open backpacks without portraits and shortcuts? For this, I suggest to add buttons to hero skills:

    Hero buttons (F1)
    |X|X|X|X|
    |X|1|2|X|
    |X|3|4|5|

    1 - Backpack (F2) select button.
    2 - Resource Bag (F3) select button.
    3 - Rest (R) button.
    4 - Revive Mercenary (E) button.
    5 - Dismiss Mercenary button.
    X - without changes.

    And for convenience add buttons to the backpack:

    Backpack buttons (F2)
    |X|X|X|X|
    |X|6|7|X|
    |T|T|T|T|

    6 - Toggle Quick Icons mode (-qi), also can show current interface mode.
    7 - Toggle Pet mode (-pet), also can show current pet mode.
    T - place for talent passives. (4 slots for future)
    X - without changes.

    After all the changes there is no room for the camera change button. As a solution, it can be changed with chat commands.

    Second solution
    Remove only resource bag portrait (F3) in this mode.

    Hero buttons (F1)
    |X|X|X|X|
    |X|1|X|X|
    |X|2|3|4|

    1 - Toggle Pet mode (-pet), also can show current pet mode.
    2 - Rest (R) button. (imho, it is better suited here)
    3 - Revive Mercenary (E) button.
    4 - Dismiss Mercenary button.
    X - without changes.

    And for convenience add buttons to the backpack:

    Backpack buttons (F2)
    |X|X|X|X|
    |X|5|6|X|
    |T|T|T|T|

    5 - Resource Bag (F3) select button.
    6 - Toggle Quick Icons mode (-qi), also can show current interface mode.
    T - place for talent passives. (4 slots for future)
    X - without changes.

    In that case there is easy access to inventory. Resources are also more likely automatically fall into the resource bag.

    New first tier skills

    New first tier skills
    A great way to diversify the game for second tier classes is to add skills for first tier classes. Teachers in the starting city have slots for 1(or even 2) extra starting spells for 250g. Teacher at the crossroads can teach 1 new spell for 1000g too.

    Squire skills

    Shoulder Push 250g skill.
    Description: Squire uses his weight to crush the enemy. This attack inflicts Str x1 + Armor x1 + Difference between armor x2 damage. Can not be critical. Adds moderate aggro.
    Cast: Instant
    Manacost: None
    Cooldown: 10 sec
    Extra: Minimal damage can not be less then 1.
    Example: Squire with 14 str and 12 armor attacks boss with 8 armor. Estimated skill damage will be: 14 + 12 + (12-8)x2 = 34 before Ar/ArP calculations. But if boss has 20 armor, estimated damage will be only: 14 + 12 + (12-20)x2 = 10.

    Reclessness 1000g skill.
    Description: Some warriors prefer to fight without extra items. Squire receives 5% Ap and Run speed for every empty inventory slot. Also skill passively increases Ap and Run speed for 5%.
    Cast/Manacost/Cooldown: Passive
    Example: Squire with 2h axe, helmet, chest and ring, without potions/scrolls, will have 2 empty slots and: 2x5% + 5% = 15% increase in Ap and Run speed. Maximum bonus: 35% Ap and Run speed for character with empty inventory.

    Thief skills

    Dirty Trick 250g skill.
    Description: Sneaky hit in less protected enemy spot. Inflicts Ap x1 damage and reduces target attack speed on 30% for 5 seconds (10 seconds if target is stunned). Duration reduced by half on bosses.
    Cast: Instant
    Manacost: 5 mp
    Cooldown: 40 sec
    Example: Thief stuns boss on enrage and use Dirty Trick. Now tank have almost 5 seconds with not so deadly attacks.

    Unstable Reagent 1000g skill.
    Description: Throws bottle with reagent that can evaporate everything on contact. Inflicts Ap x2 damage on contant. If target is under Embrittling Acid debuff, removes it and do additional Ap x2 damage to target and enemies in short range.
    Cast: Instant
    Manacost: 10 mp
    Cooldown: 8 sec
    Example: Thief can use this skill for instant AoE with finisher move on target. Also this skill will improve gameplay with 2 thief advanced classes in one party.

    Ranger skills

    Bear Trap 250g skill.
    Description: Ranger always can place bear trap to catch some bears. Trap inflict Ap x0.5 damage per 2 seconds and immobilize enemy for 20 seconds. Trap activation causes 1 second stun. Bosses are immune to immobilization. Trap duration - 60 seconds.
    Cast: 1 sec
    Manacost: 10 mp
    Cooldown: 30 sec

    Example: Ranger can use this skill for extra control on bosses with trash spawn.


    Camouflage 250g skill.
    Description: Ranger hides target with magic and dry leaves. Target gains additional 40% evasion and can evade attacks from all directions for 10 seconds. Also every second target removes 3% of remaining aggro. Buff cancels if target starts attacking or uses a spell.
    Cast: 1 sec
    Manacost: 10 mp
    Cooldown: 60 sec
    Example: This skill have a small cast range. It can be used as a self buff or as save skill for healer or damage dealer.

    Spiritual Bond 1000g skill.
    Description: Servant of nature can share his owner's feelings. Half of damage and healing applied to servant instead of ranger. Applied damage doesn't reduced by servant's armor. Toggleable skill.
    Cast: 3 sec
    Manacost: 10 mp
    Cooldown: 10 sec

    Example: Ranger can use this skill for increasing survivability. Also it will be very good for druids.


    Find Weakness 1000g skill.
    Description: Ranger carefully studying the enemy in search of his weaknesses. Every second ranger gain stacking 10% damage bonus. First directional attack from ranger will consume accumulated bonus and effect. Effect lasts for 21 seconds and doesn't affect DoT-s.
    Cast: instant
    Manacost: 5 mp
    Cooldown: 30 sec
    Example: This skill will help sustain DPS when you must switch targets or kite boss. Maximum possible bonus 200% (on last tick debuff disappears) what means 300% damage from skill/attack.

    Cleric skills

    Inner Light 250g skill.
    Description: Cleric emits holy light healing light wounds. Heals for Sp x 0.25 every second in small area around caster for 10 sec.
    Cast: instant
    Manacost: 10 mp
    Cooldown: 30 sec

    Example: Cleric can use this skill for self healing or stay close to DPS/Tank for better heal. Also emergency self heal for monks.


    Empower 250g skill.
    Description: Cleric changes magical flows to improve spell power. Increase Spell Power by 20%, but reduce Spell Haste by 10%. Drain 1 mp every second when effect is active.
    Cast: 1 sec, toggleable
    Manacost: 10 mp / 1 mp/sec when active
    Cooldown: 10 sec
    Example: DPS/HPS improve for increased manacost, situational use in short fights or when Spell Power boost needed.

    Intensive Training 1000g skill.
    Description: Some clerics choose path of agility to make their body stronger. Adds 7 HP per Agi point.
    Cast/Manacost/Cooldown: Passive

    Example: Passive skill for agi clerics. Lose one skill slot but get survivability.


    Warding Light 1000g skill.
    Description: Cleric casts a protective spell that will cancel next negative effect (include stuns) from target. Effect lasts for 20 seconds. Doesn't remove existing debuffs.
    Cast: instant
    Manacost: 10 mp
    Cooldown: 40 sec
    Example: Healer or tank stun/silence/curse protection. Will be very useful on the first d3 boss.

    Magician skills

    Stone Armor 250g skill.
    Description: Magician enchants target's armor with stone power. Adds Int x0.75 armor to the target, but also imposes a penalty: Run speed -50%.
    Cast: instant, toggleable
    Manacost: 5 mp cast, 1 mp/2 sec when active
    Cooldown: 0.5 sec
    Example: Magician can select target or himself for this spell. Spell button will be replaced with deactivation button after spell cast, thus mage can cancel it easily (this needed because spell have penalty). This spell will be useful as save skill or self/tank protection.

    Ice Block 1000g skill.
    Description: Magician calls ice powers to protect him from damage. Caster become invulnerable for 3 seconds but can not cast, move or attack. Caster can be healed or buffed under this effect.
    Cast: instant
    Manacost: 15 mp
    Cooldown: 90 sec

    Example: Escape skill if mage will be one-shotted soon.


    Concentration 1000g skill.
    Description: Magician clears his mind and can instantly cast 2 next castable spells. Effect lasts for 10 seconds. Increases generated aggro when active. Doesn't work with channel and instant spells.
    Cast: instant
    Manacost: 20 mp
    Cooldown: 30 sec
    Example: This spell makes mob kiting easier but with high manacost and increased aggro generation.


    Thank you for reading! Waiting for feedback with impatience :).

    P.S. I apologize if you find errors in spelling. I used an online translator.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  2. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    1) The problem with adding spellhaste into the duration formula for DOTs is, that it basicly goes against the principle of spellhaste: to provide a stat that increases DPS without increasing damage-per-mana ratio.

    So basicly, 10% more damage through spellpower is more valuable than 10% more damage through haste, as 10% haste (on an infinitely long battle) also results in 10% more mana consumed.

    If we apply haste to DOTs, then haste practically equals Damage (assuming a non-stackable DOT without cooldown) for DOTs.


    2) This idea comes with a huge drawback: you can not drop items directly into your backpack anymore by dragging the item on the quickbar icon.

    I understand your reasoning, but this change would be more trouble than it's worth. All dungeons (except the first) are limited to 5 players anyway, so the quickbar slot for the sixth player doesn't really matter much to the game.


    3) About your skill ideas: most of them are pretty basic. But a lot of them also come pretty close to what is already planned for 1.2B. Check out the list spells to come in 1.2B if you are interested; you might be surprised. ;)
     
  3. grekern

    grekern

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    Can't you just reduce the duration of the spell at the same time so it is the same amount of tics = same damage/mana? Although this might not be that useful for some spells as you still have to wait for cooldowns.
     
  4. ALEXz407

    ALEXz407

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    Well, it seems bonus ticks does not fit the game concept and breaks the balance.

    Sounds good. But it will be useful only with cooldown reduction based on Spell Haste.
    However, most likely game engine will not allow freely change spell cooldowns.

    Therefore, there is a second option - hide only Material Bag (F3) after activation -qi mode. And bring shortcut back when -qi mode deactivated.
    Material bag anyway is not used often as backpack. Also in most cases resources are excellent placed in Material bag when hero selected and you can forget about it until you see "Your inventory is full." message. In this case, you can open it via the shortcut in the backpack and throw useless resources on the ground (because they can not be placed in hero inventory or backpack anyway).

    I want to say main task of -qi mode is quick access to ally heroes. So why not sacrifice shortcut which is absolutely not needed in combat?

    Already seen them, awesome and class related skills.

    But why not add more skills to base classes? Then one skill can be used in both advanced classes what also increase number of possible builds.

    Just a comparison of suggested skills
    They are basic, but whether they have analogues?

    Shoulder Push - armor based aggro skill without criticals.
    Reclessness - empty inventory slots based bonus passive increasing Ap and run speed.

    Dirty Trick - attack speed reduction debuff.
    Unstable Reagent - consuming active debuff AoE or single attack.

    Camouflage - evasion + aggro reduction targetable buff disabled with attack.
    Find Weakness - significantly increasing one next attack damage over long time debuff.

    Empower - toggleable spell power bonus with active mana cost and spell haste penalty.
    Warding Light - buff that automatically dispell one incoming negative effect (include stuns).

    Stone Armor - flat armor increase based on stats with active mana cost and with run speed penalty. Has analogue but it is percent based.
    Concentration - buff that makes next 2 castable spells instant but increases aggro when active.
     
  5. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    Having haste not giving more ticks, but only reducing the time it takes for all ticks to run would practically mean nothing, as almost all DoTs either have a cooldown (which results in the same DPS no matter how fast the DoT ticks) or have additional sideeffects you probably don't want to have removed early.

    Reducing cooldowns through haste would be possible, technically (through having different levels of abilities and swapping between them). This is the same method I used to have talents that affect cooldown.
    However, there's a lot of gameplay reasons why this is not a good idea. A lot of spells have their cooldowns designed with a goal in mind to not overly simplify certain encounters in the game. Stacking too much haste could easily result in permanent crowd control (stuns, traps, frost cage) or would make certain situational spells too powerful (Stone Skin, Spell Mirror, Water Elemental, Divine Shield).
    Just imagine if a Bishop could mend every character in his group at the same time by just stacking enough haste. That would be a total easymode.


    More base class skills are possible and might come at a later point, but currently, I'm still not done fleshing out the advanced classes completely, so there's no time for that.
     
  6. grekern

    grekern

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    Right now, this can work for Divine Protection (also reduces the time on the debuff), Mend, Incinerate (can jump before the target dies), Curse of the Vampire and the DoT from Venomous Blade (might be too good). You also get the small benefit from a lot more abilities if you get an early CD reset.


    But I do agree with this point.


    So in all, I personally don't see this as super useful but it can at least be interesting to consider.
     
  7. ALEXz407

    ALEXz407

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    Yes, it seem like hard to balance spells for this.

    But still it would be nice to have spell haste rewarding mechanics in the game. For example: debuff with fixed duration which charges with every landed soul strike and explodes for AoE with damage and range based on accumulated charges when debuff fade. Or same mechanics for chargeable AoE heal buff.

    Sounds great! :thumbs_up:
     
  8. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    I feel that for all the trouble it would add for both the scripting side and the balancing side, it's just not worth the effort.

    But if it helps: I considered the situational usefullness of haste on the itemization of the game, which is why a 1% haste bonus was always rated inferior to a 1% damage increase - which means the item will probably always get a little bit more haste than an equivalent item that gives raw damage to balance it out.
     
  9. BoxOfFaith

    BoxOfFaith

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    Would it be at all possible to prioritize the Tank classes in the QI list? I mean as long as your tank(s) is in the QI list I don't think its necessary to need all 6 icons on the list. But it can be annoying if your tank is the one left off the list.

    As for the haste issue.. I think its pretty much fine how it is. Right now Haste is USEFUL, but its not exactly great for a main caster build. I think it'd be a silly balance if you ended up wanting to stack agility on a caster class to get "max" efficiency from it.
     
  10. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    About the -QI list, a priority feature is hard to make, as the order in which the icons appear is determined by when the alliance state has been set.

    What I could do, however, is a simple ignore command for the -QI list.
    So basicly you could type in something like:
    "-hide red"
    and that would not display the red player in your QI list anymore until you use the corresponding show command.

    I'll add this feature to my lower priority to-do list.

    It will probably come when I revamp the chat command system and replace it with a button menu.
    I plan to have an "options" button on the command card of the heroes that allows to access all the stuff like music toggle, pvp mode, pet behaviour, QI, repicking and saving directly via ability buttons, instead of chat commands, to make it more intuitive for new players. Only exception to this will be loading, for obvious reasons.

    There might also be a help submenu in there, that has several in-depth explanations of game mechanics as button tooltips, like how the threat system works or how saving/loading works.

    But, again, this is low priority. It will come as all other features of 1.2B are complete.
     
  11. BoxOfFaith

    BoxOfFaith

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    That sounds great to me!
     
  12. Shamu

    Shamu

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    Instead of having haste reduce all cooldowns, you could always only have it do that only for a select few abilities. If you don't want it on mend, don't make it available for mend. If you think it would work nicely on another ability, you can just implement it there.
    I don't think you need to be absolutely consistent in mechanics for all abilities, as long as you clarify how each ability works individually, which you can do in the tooltip.

    Giving haste additional effects on certain abilities would open up new build paths though. If you introduce a haste-affected DoT with manareg/tick you can circumvent the occuring manaproblems. By doing this, the benefit from haste could surpass that of Spell Damage, which would bring new options in gearing. However, this could also make things very complicated, like in World of Warcraft during WotLK, when an icc 10 geared warrior had to recalculate the Strength Equivalency of ArP after every change in gear because it kept hovering around 1, which was extremely annoying to have to deal with. Then again, I don't think anyone is quite that focussed on minor details of perfomance here.

    And then there's always the fact that ain't no zwieb got time fo dat. I'd assume that making haste a viable substitution for flat damage for one build of one class is way too much work. Still, making it reduce tick intervals and cooldown of very few spells as a special feature could end up being interesting when deciding on your personal build, when you need to decide on what to pick up with the haste/spell damage you actually have, not some BiS dream list.

    So in conclusion:
    - Is haste a nice-to-have, but not that great stat, or a core stat?
    - Would it be an option to introduce an ability which has its cooldown modified by haste, and more important, would it be worth the effort to create such an ability?
     
  13. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    I see where you guys are coming from, and believe me: if I had the time and resources to give haste another purpose aside from cast-time spells, I'd do that, but it's not worth the trouble for now.

    Haste is useful enough as it is now. It's basicly used as a competing stat for classes that take only a minor benefit from +crit. Haste really shines for bishops, as it allows to significantly reduce heal casting time. It's not really useful for druids, but then again, druids have other secondary stats that they might want to stack in their gear choice.



    Given only a very limited amount of manpower and time, I have to concentrate on stuff that either:
    - add the most amount of content for a minimal amount of overheard workload
    - improve the gaming experience for the biggest possible audience
    - overall increase the possible diversity of characters and builds with a low amount of work

    Changing haste caters to none of that effectively enough. Increasing the possible flexibility of builds is better done but just adding more talents/abilities, as it not only adds valuable content, but also is a relatively low amount of work.
    Btw, this is also the reason why there won't be any more class specific quests in the next main updates. It just doesn't yield enough raw content per amount of work compared to quests that are universal.


    That's why I decided the game to be feature-locked now. It just doesn't make sense to add more fluff to this game when the most valuable thing I can do with my time right now is to just add more raw content.