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New Content Discussion [SPOILER]

Level 20
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Can i say that i love the fact that once you get to play him, Lerrig is like one of the strongest heroes? (mofo got super busted War Aura and Chain Heal). Also, I like the interpretation that he hired those mercenaries to learn. Say what you want but Lerrig needs his own storyline :xxd:
I mean his story line its kinda implied, he hailed from a noble family and had it easy due to his privileges, people love to take a piss on him due to his extreme blunders
1.Joining Genethas
2.Messing up the royalists when they were fighting the demons during the second book first chapters

I find it kinda ironic though that his last decision, the one sending the Mercenaries after the orcs was actually a smart one, had Darric kept his men in line they would end the Orcs and there would be no Tribal dominion. In the end the student(Lering) outshined his mentor (Darric) in terms of tactical thinking even though he got lucky!

As for an in game hero, he is actually busted, he is one hell of a supportive Hero, auras (war and thorn) chain heal and if i am not mistaken either shockwave or storm hammer.
 
Level 19
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I find it kinda ironic though that his last decision, the one sending the Mercenaries after the orcs was actually a smart one
It was? Without the imperials following the orcs, the salrians would have been defeated much sooner.
Redfist would have to fight against a lot more of enemies. Maybe even the orcs would have attacked many other places after their victory.
Also all the imperials could have helped either gardon or van durce to defeat the Demons.

So i think his errand wasnt smart, Lost tons of soldiers to the orcs instead of fighting Demons. -1 to lerrig.
 
Level 29
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I mean his story line its kinda implied, he hailed from a noble family and had it easy due to his privileges, people love to take a piss on him due to his extreme blunders
1.Joining Genethas
2.Messing up the royalists when they were fighting the demons during the second book first chapters
The only reasons he survived that long was both due to having Daric do most of the job for him and because he is the son-in-law to a certain noble.

I mean, I was sickened with the first part of the Second Human Book. In the prologue, van Durce goes all out in blaiming Gardon and Greymore for allowing Genethas to do as much damage as he did. He even disbands the Ironfist and imprisons (and later tortures and kills) Blen. And in the next mission, he sends Gardon to go rescue Lerrig, one of the guys that sided with Genethas and aided in killing plenty of loyal Imperials.
I find it kinda ironic though that his last decision, the one sending the Mercenaries after the orcs was actually a smart one, had Darric kept his men in line they would end the Orcs and there would be no Tribal dominion. In the end the student(Lering) outshined his mentor (Darric) in terms of tactical thinking even though he got lucky!
I have to agree with @Mvicio. How was that a smart move?

Daric's mercenaries surely provided aid for the Salrians, Redfists and pirates in attacking the orcs, but that was it. At best, they simply delayed the inevitable. Had Daric decided to retreat after knowing about Lerrig's death, it would have been a very wise choice. He and his men died fighting in a war they couldn't win to honor the commands of an incompetent that only achieved his position due to nepotism. Logan was the smartest out of the bunch and that is why he was the only that survived by the end of the story.

The main problem with Daric seems that he appears to be a pushover concerning other authority figures. He obeyed Lerrig's orders and didn't back down even after the latter died, his mercenaries mostly served as support for other factions rather than having a say in matters concerning strategy and he allowed himself to submit to the Redfists' orders.
 
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@LISBOAH

Had they actually focused on attacking Grofzag and Zarimak and not contain the demons as they were ordered, the Orcs would have serious trouble thats like Two key figures gone and a good chunk of orcish fighters gone with them. Rangul gets killed by Redfist and the Dominion is stuck with Sas,Lokar,Amari and Vanessa. They would have three extra regiments (the two that they lost on the the Grofzag chapter trying to contain the demons and the purple one with the knight that got killed by Grofzag when he made his escape) and you see that things don't look so good for the orcs. Logan being saved has nothing to do with him being smart in my opinion. Had he done as he was ordered all of the Mercs would be alive by now.

I always saw him being alive as a cruel joke, first his family killed by demons then his comrades killed by the orcs due to his constant interfering with the orders strictly given by Darric due to his bias towards demons. Funnily enough the Demons got him twice first his family then his friends.

Edit: But yeah Lering is an ass shat that got where he was just by simply being lucky, his mom's screwed the right guy.
 
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Had they actually focused on attacking Grofzag and Zarimak and not contain the demons as they were ordered, the Orcs would have serious trouble thats like Two key figures gone and a good chunk of orcish fighters gone with them.
If they had killed Grofzag and Zairmak then, it would be hard for them to find the rest of the orcs. Cassius even says that having spared them proved to be the better choice. That if, of course, the Demons wouldn't end up overruning them since the forces that were supposed to hold them off wouldn't have reinforcements.

Rangul gets killed by Redfist and the Dominion is stuck with Sas,Lokar,Amari and Vanessa. They would have three extra regiments (the two that they lost on the the Grofzag chapter trying to contain the demons and the purple one with the knight that got killed by Grofzag when he made his escape) and you see that things don't look so good for the orcs. Logan being saved has nothing to do with him being smart in my opinion. Had he done as he was ordered all of the Mercs would be alive by now.
Grofzag and Zairmak didn't play that much of a role, perhaps excluding the Gnoll part. And you can bet those two would kill as many humans as possible before dying.
I always saw him being alive as a cruel joke, first his family killed by demons then his comrades killed by the orcs due to his constant interfering with the orders strictly given by Darric due to his bias towards demons. Funnily enough the Demons got him twice first his family then his friends.
If you think about it, he only interfered once and Cassius said that, in hindsight, it was a good choice.

Him ordering his soldiers to stop focusing on the orcs and fight the undead was a good choice since Amari spared them, allowing him and his men to survive, which is more you can say about the rest. And this was helpful in the long run, since Logan aided us in defending the canon long enough to halt the demonic invasion.
Edit: But yeah Lering is an ass shat that got where he was just by simply being lucky, his mom's screwed the right guy.
Gardon was actually related to both the Emperor and van Durce, and he got screwed due to Lerrig's choices.
Lerrig is like that sibling that can do as he wants and the others are the ones that get into trouble.
 
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Him ordering his soldiers to stop focusing on the orcs and fight the undead was a good choice since Amari spared them, allowing him and his men to survive, which is more you can say about the rest. And this was helpful in the long run, since Logan aided us in defending the canon long enough to halt the demonic invasion.
Well in the true story that may change. But he took the proper answer, since the first books era everybody knows that the undead have no allies despite other undeads, so why are the living fighting between them when the undead are there trying to kill both of them.
Both the demons and the undead are the races that the humans and orcs should allie against in any possible situation.

Also now that i´ve thinking about Logan, he might end with the dominion as an human ally (under Vanessa´s leadership) or as the human leader of the Blackthorn. That would be pretty sweet, Logan deserves it.

Gardon was actually related to both the Emperor and van Durce, and he got screwed due to Lerrig's choices.
Lerrig is like that sibling that can do as he wants and the others are the ones that get into trouble.
Yep, luckily once the first book era is done he´ll die by "the demons". Thx Kersidar.
 
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Gardon was actually related to both the Emperor and van Durce, and he got screwed due to Lerrig's choices.
Lerrig is like that sibling that can do as he wants and the others are the ones that get into trouble.
At that point, I think Tregakh usurped the imperial throne, so I'd argue it wasn't Lerrig's choices, but Tregakh's plans of killing Gardon that led to the screwing.
On something slightly related, I think Tregakh realised Lerrig's useful idiot role and decided it would be better to spare and use his weaknesses. Lerrig's incompetence sewing so much distrust among the people of the kingdoms would've given Tregakh a lot of justification to launch an even larger invasion later on ( which is what he will do)
Combine it with the fact the imperials are even more pissed off from all the people they lost ''defending an ungrateful continent'', and it suddenly makes some sense why people like Lerrig were still allowed to be in command of anything.
 
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Well in the true story that may change. But he took the proper answer, since the first books era everybody knows that the undead have no allies despite other undeads, so why are the living fighting between them when the undead are there trying to kill both of them.
Both the demons and the undead are the races that the humans and orcs should allie against in any possible situation.
But sadly, not even that is possible.
It says something that in the universe of Warcraft, races are capable of putting aside their differences and fight against a common foe that aims to kill everyone, while in Arkain people of the same race apparently can't even do that.
Also now that i´ve thinking about Logan, he might end with the dominion as an human ally (under Vanessa´s leadership) or as the human leader of the Blackthorn. That would be pretty sweet, Logan deserves it.
Yes he does.
At that point, I think Tregakh usurped the imperial throne, so I'd argue it wasn't Lerrig's choices, but Tregakh's plans of killing Gardon that led to the screwing.
Possibly. Though I still blame van Durce and the Golden Guard for going with it. van Durce's rage during the prologue seems to be too genuine for him to do such things simply because the Emperor told him to.

And I doubt Tregakh had something to do with Blen's fate. Gardon could have been a threat, but Blen was too loyal and competent. He still could have been useful in dealing with the orcs, the undead and the demons.

Having the Golden Guard be the ones to imprison and kill him was a very, very bad move. It is no wonder that the Golden Guard was standing alone (besides the Dwarves and Paladins), while Gardon gathered everyone else against them.
On something slightly related, I think Tregakh realised Lerrig's useful idiot role and decided it would be better to spare and use his weaknesses. Lerrig's incompetence sewing so much distrust among the people of the kingdoms would've given Tregakh a lot of justification to launch an even larger invasion later on ( which is what he will do)
He simply didn't expect to Gardon to kill him, which was truly the best choice.
 
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It says something that in the universe of Warcraft, races are capable of putting aside their differences and fight against a common foe that aims to kill everyone, while in Arkain people of the same race apparently can't even do that.
That´s why an alliance between Logan and Amari was so welcomed. Human and Orcs fighting "side by side" against undead. And perhaps Gardon and Amari fighting both the demon and the imperials in the long long future.

Having the Golden Guard be the ones to imprison and kill him was a very, very bad move. It is no wonder that the Golden Guard was standing alone (besides the Dwarves and Paladins), while Gardon gathered everyone else against them.
Well, besides the dwarves, everyone knew that the Golden Guard wanted to leave Arkain to his demise.

And I doubt Tregakh had something to do with Blen's fate. Gardon could have been a threat, but Blen was too loyal and competent. He still could have been useful in dealing with the orcs, the undead and the demons.
Maybe they didn´t want to take the risk. I mean, Blen have deals with the goldaxe clan (during the second books we didn´t knew but i suppose he had a good enough relation) so they couldn´t send him to fight the orcs.
If the undead really wanted Glen they could have killed him and take his corpse.
Maybe seeing that every imperial wanted him dead he could have made a deal with the demons, strengthening the demons.

Killing him was (even if dope) the safer option.
 
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My review

Interlude:
-"Take the Kingdoms or die trying". The demons will force you to take a third option.
-I knew that Ishzog was a servant of Bhaarizel and that he was in league with Amari.
-So in this timeline, Vanessa knew Amari beforehand and they had a good relationship apparently

Act Four, Chapter Three
-Prideblade and Aveen owned Lerrig with their arguments
-Man, Lerrig is so stupid. Chevar just said that Genethas sent the team of engineers away and he is still convinced that he is not a traitor?!
-Nice to see van Durce. It looks like he is already on his way to the Kingdoms. And so is Redfist.
-I am now even more glad that Rath and Rangul will die very soon. Vanessa made a pretty good point and they had the nerve to call her a traitor and coward. Let's see what they will have to say once they will be forced to flee for their lives.
-No, Rangul, you will not fight to the last one. You will die fleeing for your lives once the demons arrive.
-"like any father that loves his children" Big talk, Rangul, coming from the guy that allowed his eldest child to go into exile fully knowing that the chances of her dying were pretty high
-I chose the Bloodhand Clan, though I didn't notice any differences
-I did not kill Progaderas. I had no time to do so.
-Lerrig, despite his absurd levels of stupidiy, made a good point to Rath. Rath rants about the innocents slaughtered by the Imperials, but what about the innocents that the Darkmind killed?
-RIP Chevar, Pridebalde, Kenos and Selior. Pity that they died while others didn't «cough» Lerrig, Rath and Rangul «cough»
-Damn it Lerrig! He not only sided with a traitor, fled from a battle against the orcs but he will send Daric's mercenaries to avenge this humiliation, troops that could have been more useful later on. He more than deserved the death penalty with this. Him being van Durce's son-in-law shouldn't be, in any way, enough to protect him
-Oh, I expected for more stuff to appear in the ending cinematic considering the repercussions this battle has
 
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Well I was wandering what was taking so long, now I see why.

I for one enjoyed this massive "moba" like gameplay, it was a slug out but it was far far more enjoyable that the older version. Bug wise I did not notice anything, except for the part when Van Durce is speaking with Redfist and afterwards it cuts back to Pride blade for a split second.

@LISBOAH
The only guys that died were Prideblade, The bear guy and Selior, Kenos managed to run, as Zarimak put it "I feel like it wont be the last time I will fight him", maybe Kenos will join Redfist.

So the mad preacher was after all just another orc pet of Brian as I said. This should be fun, thank fucking god Vanessa is getting some more deserved attention god knows Rath and the crew are annoyingly bland still.

Curious to see what the choice we do clan wise impact I as well chose The Destroyer didn't notice anything though!

Edit: Okay as for the implications. I guess Aridon won this time, Humans managed to weaken both the demons and the orcs while getting destroyed themselves which in turn means more corpses for his undead legions. I am curious to see who orc leaders will die and who will not.

As for the characters. Shar you truly did Selior justice, he as a character was often brushed aside as the fool that got brain washed and used as a tool (sharing the same model as Othmar Garithos doesn't help either xD ) with this new version I cant help but feel sad how his fate turned out to be, he knew he was doomed, he could have chosen to run and save his hide but he chose to stand and fight. A soldier through and through he had his orders, died trying to uphold them and never gave the satisfaction to any of his doubters.

Kenos on the other side seems a rather, how do I put this, weird character. We know imperials do not shy away from "unethical" experiments, what Zarimak said about him and his obsession with the Phoenix makes me think he might be older than we all think after all the phoenix never "dies". Also its pretty much confirmed that the Imperial mage that scared the iron thunder chieftain was Him and not Harmos. Ill be keeping an eye on him he is the most interesting of the bunch.
 
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The only guys that died were Prideblade, The bear guy and Selior, Kenos managed to run, as Zarimak put it "I feel like it wont be the last time I will fight him", maybe Kenos will join Redfist.
I know that chances are that Kenos didn't die, at least for good, but for the time being, he can be considered dead. I am, though, starting to be afraid that, even if he returns, he will not be the same Kenos.
This should be fun, thank fucking god Vanessa is getting some more deserved attention god knows Rath and the crew are annoyingly bland still.
Considering that she did warn them and that she will save some of them from the demons, her reputation will certainly improve. While Rangul and Rath will quickly find out that they flew too close to the sun. Their invasion will fail, they will have to flee from the demons and their home will soon suffer the wrath of the Redfists.

Curious to see what the choice we do clan wise impact I as well chose The Destroyer didn't notice anything though!
Me neither.
I even expected that we would be given the chance to command Bloodhand units on this mission, alongside the Darkmind units.
As for the characters. Shar you truly did Selior justice, he as a character was often brushed aside as the fool that got brain washed and used as a tool (sharing the same model as Othmar Garithos doesn't help either xD ) with this new version I cant help but feel sad how his fate turned out to be, he knew he was doomed, he could have chosen to run and save his hide but he chose to stand and fight. A soldier through and through he had his orders, died trying to uphold them and never gave the satisfaction to any of his doubters.
Indeed. Selior may have been screwed (literally by Largoth, figuratively by Genethas and in his mind by Gardon and Blen), but he did an astonishing job. And he chose to stay and fight till the end alongside his soldiers, rather than retreating even after finfing out that he has been used.

I hope that when Rath dies, the Imperials take his head and give him a proper burial.
Kenos on the other side seems a rather, how do I put this, weird character. We know imperials do not shy away from "unethical" experiments, what Zarimak said about him and his obsession with the Phoenix makes me think he might be older than we all think after all the phoenix never "dies". Also its pretty much confirmed that the Imperial mage that scared the iron thunder chieftain was Him and not Harmos. Ill be keeping an eye on him he is the most interesting of the bunch.
Could Keno be some sort of lich that is not undead? In the sense that he is a spellcaster that can resurrect himself?
 
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Level 22
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Thoughts on the new chapter:

  • It was nice to see that Amari and Vanessa were closer once.
  • Lerrig definitely deserves what's coming for him, be it Gardon killing him or dying at the Gate of Hell battle at the hands of the undead (the second one being a lot more unlikely)
  • If there's one thing for sure, it's that everybody loves underestimating the orcs.
  • I was surprised the Destroyer didn't get any sort of screentime, be an ally or even get a piece of dialogue.
  • I feel like Sasrogarn never participating in the attacks should be mentioned later on. It would definitely reinforce his cowardly persona.
  • It would've been nice if Lokar was an allied hero here.
  • Chose the Skullblade Clan. The Dragon Lancers were pretty useful here.
  • This mission can be pretty tricky. I found being aggressive at the beginning to be a bad idea and ended in me getting overwhelmed and losing. Defending until Lerrig deserts, at least 1 wave of the undead had been repulsed and the Skullblade clan joined wielded much better results.
  • I have a mixed opinion on the choke points here. I felt like they gave the enemy a fair chance to recover as much as they dragged the mission. Outflanking them doesn't really work since they send 90 % of their army to stop you while the other 10 % could very easily hold that choke point.
  • Then there were the undead attacks. You definitely needed to get rid of those otherwise you'll get into an even bigger stalemate. Around the time I destroyed the undead was the time I slowly began pushing against the Wolf Regiment and feeling like I finally broke the big stalemate the mission was in. Now that the field was a lot more open the enemy pretty much quickly fell. The same tactic worked on the southern front too.
  • Prideblade should get a dialogue line after his base is destroyed.
  • A mention could be given about Progaderas and the Demons on the southern parts of the map.
  • Zairmak having a feeling of familiarity about Kenos makes me think either they know each other since way back but don't realise it or that Zairmak may be a part of the reason why Kenos is physically scarred and wears a mask.
  • I'm guessing the epilogue will be from the POV of the major races and properly tell what happened in the aftermath of each major battle.

I know that chances are that Kenos didn't die, at least for good, but for the time being, he can be considered dead. I am, though, starting to be afraid that, even if he returns, he will not be the same Kenos.
In the short story ''Burning Falcon'', which took place a bit before the orcs begin their attacks on Salria, Kenos didn't seem any different from what he was before. I think that's a sign that he may still remain pretty much the same.
Compare it to the other 2 stories. Dorbric became a lot more resentful, bitter and less cheerful, while Zoia became a lot more ruthless, and I think that means Kenos is pretty much fine.
 
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I know that chances are that Kenos didn't die, at least for good, but for the time being, he can be considered dead. I am, though, starting to be afraid that, even if he returns, he will not be the same Kenos.
Could be what you said, on my last post (edited) he does raise some eyebrows as a character, we know imperials have no qualms about experimenting with different things (considering we have walking upright bears and wolfs riding horses) but this far from what i have seen it seems they focus on altering physical features or breeding all kind of weird beasts. Kenos and his obsession with phoenix is interesting. After all the dammed bird never truly dies. Maybe Kenos is just a soul tied to a body, maybe Kenos "rents" the souls of those whom he has defeated and that way he cheats death. Eager to see how he turns out as a character.

Zairmak having a feeling of familiarity about Kenos makes me think either they know each other since way back but don't realise it or that Zairmak may be a part of the reason why Kenos is physically scarred and wears a mask.
Really? To me good ol Zair looked confused by what he just fought.

I am pretty sure Kenos was scared by a demon who imprisoned him inside his own summoned fiery bird.
 
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  • Lerrig definitely deserves what's coming for him, be it Gardon killing him or dying at the Gate of Hell battle at the hands of the undead (the second one being a lot more unlikely)
He deserves that and much more.
  • If there's one thing for sure, it's that everybody loves underestimating the orcs.
And the orcs overestimate themselves. Rangul shrugged off Vanessa's concern regarding the Demons. Who, in their right mind, shruggs off the Demons?
  • I was surprised the Destroyer didn't get any sort of screentime, be an ally or even get a piece of dialogue.
Same. I am not even sure I saw him during the mission. It sucks that he is not a Hero.
  • I feel like Sasrogarn never participating in the attacks should be mentioned later on. It would definitely reinforce his cowardly persona.
His excuse could be that he is recovering from being pushed back by the Dwarves and Elves. A pitiful excuse.
  • I'm guessing the epilogue will be from the POV of the major races and properly tell what happened in the aftermath of each major battle.
If so, it will be a quite long epilogue.
 
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Indeed. Selior may have been screwed (literally by Largoth, figuratively by Genethas and in his mind by Gardon and Blen), but he did an astonishing job. And he chose to stay and fight till the end alongside his soldiers, rather than retreating even after finfing out that he has been used.

I hope that when Rath dies, the Imperials take his head and give him a proper burial.
Aye we agree on this one, Shar did a great job actually developing him as a character in only two chapters, in the end he was a victim of his surroundings, Disinherited, Disowned, shunned by his peers yet managed to make a name for himself considering the odds where against him even his outbursts against Blen, i wouldn't consider them as jealousy but rather a symptom of the literally shit treatment he got, in the end though he won, non of those who doubted him got the chance to say "See we told you so he was a failure" he might have died but he chose his own fate.
Could Keno be some sort of lich that is not undead? In the sense that he is a spellcaster that can resurrect himself?
I can't tell for sure what is up with him, but ill be keeping a close eye on him, he has spiked my interest, hopefully shar develops him further, I wanna see his duel with the Ironthunder clan chieftain as well. It takes a rather remarkable individual for Zair to actually praise, so he clearly has something about him. Most likely he will join Redfist or Darric and his boys.
 
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Oh, dear. What an eldritch hell was that:
-Oh, a pity Ramerius had to die. The suspicion of his absence in short story really omened something bad. So, he was the one who reported to Van Durce then... doesn't seem a stretch.
-As for fallen bears... Ardoz nexus: can you make werebear frankeinsteins?
-The skeleton aberrations finally showed themselves. It would've been nice to face 'brothers' in the battle to see what they can do and what they actually look like. One seemed like possessing naga-like main body though it could be wrong.
-What about giving Vanessa and Rath orbs to attack air?
-Seriously Imperials are far stronger than Orcs... not gonna lie: had to use cheat to slaughter all those hordes. They even managed to destroy my main base, Ironthunder, Bloodhand, and Goldaxe. All generals, Aveen with starfall and storm bolt, Kenos with phoenix and finger of death, Zoia with veteran rank and wolves, Dorbric with boulder and war aura, Ramerius with van durce's ultimate, Grennan with fire elementals and fire golem, and Selior with resurrection... could just obliterate armies. Even having a forward base won't help much as Selior's Guard spares enough soldiers to destroy outposts. Skullblade really helped to destroy Bear Regiment and Fergon, but allow Gorthog to participate in combat; he was really itching to fight... maybe locating altar at the lower ground Skullblade barracks would help. Or locating Beastaries in the high cliffs and make the bulk of Skullblade base on the ground would be a good choice. Also, making Sas useful by participating in battle would be nice, yet he is a coward.
-Where are Inara and Destroyer? Playing as Inara would be fun and having her as the fourth hero would mitigate the extreme difficulty at least. What about officially making Destroyer a hero for Bloodhand base? The reason why Bloodhand base fell so easily was because of no hero to lead them.
-Largoth trying to manipulate Selior but failed is quite... uncommon. It seems Selior's fate was already sealed though retreating from Dead Mountain would've spared so many troops. Yet Largoth's manipulation would've prevented many things. Maybe Undead would fight both Blooddrinker and Souleater after Kersidar sees both Orcs and Humans being unscatched, or might attack Orcs directly.
-It is a good thing no general and regiment betrayed Selior... they are always synergic. It would be even more honorable for them to die as one in Salria arc.
-Lerrig in the end made the worst choice... can't blame him though.
-So, Rath claims Seliors's head... the chance of Blen surviving Golden Guard torture and leading armies in Kerrel castle is glimmering! I just hope Van Durce would not do something stupid as killing the greatest general in this timeline. Changing Selior's model would not hurt imo; he is not Garithos xD.
-Kenos and Zairmak fight... both are ancient... is Kenos the oldest human of Empire as in case of Zairmak?
-Oh, yeah. Great to see Ishzog not being Brian. And Amari and Vanessa interaction is cute.
Can't wait for next fight. Let the Bloodbath of Undead and Demons begin! :peasant-cheers-back:
 
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That was some battle. Good job!
Not gonna lie, the mission was VERY difficult. The generals kick ass and their troops are stronger than what the orcs can field. Gorthok ending the bear and Lerrig leaving were a godsend. It's really fun that they make sense even from a lore standpoint, like, the orcs manage to break through with the skullblade's surprise air attack and with lerrig's desertion.
Zoia's dialogue with Rangul had me like "yo, wtf". Also Old Zairmak with the mad dodges.
Nice work!
 
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I am pretty sure Kenos was scared by a demon who imprisoned him inside his own summoned fiery bird.
According to his entry in the character sheet, that's just a widely believed rumour that he's never commented on. Makes me think we'll get something a lot more interesting and unexpected as a reveal later on.

And the orcs overestimate themselves. Rangul shrugged off Vanessa's concern regarding the Demons. Who, in their right mind, shruggs off the Demons?
In their minds, they probably convinced themselves that conquering the kingdoms would give them the resources to eventually recover and fight off the demons.
 

Shar Dundred

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-I chose the Bloodhand Clan, though I didn't notice any differences
Curious to see what the choice we do clan wise impact I as well chose The Destroyer didn't notice anything though!
Me neither.
I even expected that we would be given the chance to command Bloodhand units on this mission, alongside the Darkmind units.

1638698754349.png

I was surprised the Destroyer didn't get any sort of screentime, be an ally or even get a piece of dialogue.
He is on the map though, along with Lokar, Dogran, Zairmak, Grofzag and Sasrogarn.
Gets rebuilt on death too.
He's easier to miss than the other heroes though due to his demi hero status.
I have a mixed opinion on the choke points here. I felt like they gave the enemy a fair chance to recover as much as they dragged the mission. Outflanking them doesn't really work since they send 90 % of their army to stop you while the other 10 % could very easily hold that choke point.
Gonna release an update today that destroys the walls at the entrances when the towers get
destroyed - which your AI allies are actually quite good at doing early on.
Actually wanted to put that into the release but might as well combine it with some other neat
ideas I had today.
-What about giving Vanessa and Rath orbs to attack air?
Well... you will find some in the next update... Just have to go to hot places with that weird couple. ;)
Ramerius with van durce's ultimate
Ramerius used to have Lightning Storm (Merlon's ult). I think you understand why I replaced it.
Zoia's dialogue with Rangul had me like "yo, wtf".
There's a hidden dialogue with Zoia & Vanessa that has a 1/10 chance to be played
instead of that one. Curious how many will see it without checking the editor for it.
 
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Oh? That's intriguing. Gonna check it on the editor ( :thumbs_up:).
Yes, I was totally weirded out from not seeing Sasrogarn and even more the Destroyer. The damn brute was supposed to be frontline. And sure enough, Sas was tucked in his camp (faking bowel movements?) and Des charged ahead in all his not-heroic splendor. It really intrigues me how he's not a hero despite his massive health pool. Even the spirit of the chieftains told him that he wasn't worthy to be one of them. My theory is that being a bloodthirsty brute doesn't do much for being a true hero :thumbs_down:
Just now I am replaying the mission and suddenly something like 60 Cleavers emerged from Selior's base. It's something that I noticed before with the cheat that took the fog of war away. The Cleavers seem to get stuck in their base after respawning.
 

Shar Dundred

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Just now I am replaying the mission and suddenly something like 60 Cleavers emerged from Selior's base. It's something that I noticed before with the cheat that took the fog of war away. The Cleavers seem to get stuck in their base after respawning.
Can you post a screenshot of it?
There's no trigger that should spawn Cleavers - unless you destroy Selior's Workshops, Castle or Altars.
In either case, they are not supposed to attack but remain defensive anyway.

Also, one more thing:
I highly recommend NOT using iseedeadpeople here. It always bugs out the attacking waves.
It happened on the Secret Chapter in the Second Orc Book too, some may remember.
You have to keep in mind that cheats like iseedeadpeople & greedisgood also affect the AI.
While the latter has no effect in Arkain since the AI has endless resources anyway, the former
certainly does.
 
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Gotcha. Must have been the cheat doing it then.
No screenshot, sorry. It went and gone. Not much of a problem though. The orcs just chewed through it :xxd:
 
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Oh lmao, i was so focused on actually winning the map that I assumed those were part of our unit roster.

Eyo shar by any chance what happened to the allied kingdoms armies? They are totally absent and there is no sign of both Whitefield and Tornash( or what was his name)
 
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Lets see. Review Chapter Three act four + interlude.

-Lets start with a common opinion... HOLY shit that map was tough.
-Having the conversation between Amari and Vanessa makes much more sense. Amari was exiled maybe 5-10 years from the actual war and Vanessa was there 20 years with the orcs so 100% they would meet.
-So iszog is a servant of brian, probably a second rate one since Amari is there.
-And that´s the lerrig we all know. The stupid bastard who did cost this battle even after Fergon said that Genethas stole a whole squad of engineers.
-Props to Cleavehand, he knew they wouldn´t win against both the orcs and demons but still fight with all his might (and those cleavers that are monsters)
-Van durce knew about the redfist and also asked for help. But redfist have some other affairs.
-Shar you are diabolical, sending both the Aveer and Prideblade against the clans that can´t stun them (only the high shamans can, but the other side has grofzag and Zairmak + ravaging fire)
-You must stay on the defensive until Gorthog enters the arena and Lerrig leaves, having rangul down there and Rath+Vanessa in the upper side can help a lot.
-I picked the goldaxe clan to have the contracts, then i restarted with the skullblade to have dragon lancers and got it anyway.
-I kinda feel bad for the bear regiment, they couldn´t proceed as planned because of genethas and then they were shoot to death by wyverns. Also the elder werebear are FAIR stronger than the bulld soldiers. Bear>Bull until the end.
-Having no orbs hurts, but i suppose in the full release we´ll get all the items on the previous missions, making our heroes stronger (and only zoia and Berangar would be stronger than now)
-The undead can be stopped with a good old chunk of towers and some repair peons. Having 2 goldmines + the contracts make it viable.
-Zairmak vs Kenos was a nice touch, both are ancient beings and they have A LOT of years, probably Kenos made the same ritual or something like Zairmak did.

Really nice chapter Shar, a massive improvement since the old one (that i hated).



Same. I am not even sure I saw him during the mission. It sucks that he is not a Hero.
He is, during the first wave of the bloodhand clan at least. Dunno about the rest of the time, i Lost my bloodhand allie while dealing with the bulls.

His excuse could be that he is recovering from being pushed back by the Dwarves and Elves. A pitiful excuse.
Rath, Dogran, Lokar and Grofzag were there too. No excuse.

Also, making Sas useful by participating in battle would be nice, yet he is a coward.
I would prefer Sas standing by like a coward, his summons and volcano would hurt more orcs than imperials anyway.

-So, Rath claims Seliors's head... the chance of Blen surviving Golden Guard torture and leading armies in Kerrel castle is glimmering! I just hope Van Durce would not do something stupid as killing the greatest general in this timeline. Changing Selior's model would not hurt imo; he is not Garithos xD.
Well, that didn´t made sense anyway. Now we know that blen helps gardon so he´ll probably die while fighting rath and his forces.

Eyo shar by any chance what happened to the allied kingdoms armies? They are totally absent and there is no sign of both Whitefield and Tornash( or what was his name)
Perharps they are the allies for Genethas. Gardon´s side will have the elves and dwarfs, Merlon, the ironfist and the grey guard. Genethas will have his veterans, Lerrig´s forces, maybe even demons (making lerrig deflect and die yes please) and some kingdoms forces.

In their minds, they probably convinced themselves that conquering the kingdoms would give them the resources to eventually recover and fight off the demons.
Well they are not wrong, but they would need 20 years, like with the kingdom of Salria and not 3 days, they are in an actual war dammit.

Could Keno be some sort of lich that is not undead? In the sense that he is a spellcaster that can resurrect himself?
Rahandir did ressurrect himself and became a lich, but he didn´t used undead magic until that point.
Since both necromancy and druidism exist, perharps there is a way to use the summoned creatures (in this case the phoenix) to an extend that he became one.
 
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-So iszog is a servant of brian, probably a second rate one since Amari is there.
That makes me wonder how many agents are out there.
-Van durce knew about the redfist and also asked for help. But redfist have some other affairs.
Redfist himself said that he doesn't care about the Demons or the Kingdoms, his only concern is to kill all the orcs.
Unless, of course, his personality gets changed in the True Story.
Perharps they are the allies for Genethas. Gardon´s side will have the elves and dwarfs, Merlon, the ironfist and the grey guard. Genethas will have his veterans, Lerrig´s forces, maybe even demons (making lerrig deflect and die yes please) and some kingdoms forces.
If he does, I will love to see King Dorten's reaction.
In the Second Book, he spends most of the prologue criticizing the Imperials. If the Kingdoms' armies chose Genethas over Gardon in the True Story, he will lose his moral high ground (if he had any to begin with).
 
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That makes me wonder how many agents are out there.
Not that many i suppose. None of them use shadow magic (except Amari). If there were a lot of agents maybe some race, clan, elemental order or even an army would have got any suspicious behaviour.
I suppose Iszog and his followers, Amari (using the cliffhunter clan) and perhaps someone in the elemental orders since we know nothing about most of them.

Contracts are always available in that mission to provide extra income, give the Fortress something to do
and to give you a chance to get Bodyguards - also Hortnog still wants to earn money while the invasion
is still going.
Hortnog talking facts, they are going to lose the war so going back to home with the biggest amount of money secures his clan. Althought Redfist may have something to say.

Redfist himself said that he doesn't care about the Demons or the Kingdoms, his only concern is to kill all the orcs.
Unless, of course, his personality gets changed in the True Story.
Most of characters have changed in the true story but i doubt redfist would be one of them. He express everything in his proper way during the second books. Maybe during the salria invasion would change something, since volarian and van durce are partners, maybe we´ll need to fight Golden Guard and Redfist at the same time during the future.

If he does, I will love to see King Dorten's reaction.
In the Second Book, he spends most of the prologue criticizing the Imperials. If the Kingdoms' armies chose Genethas over Gardon in the True Story, he will lose his moral high ground (if he had any to begin with).
Criticizing the imperials that save his continent during all this time. He is old enough to the times when there wasn´t any reinforcents, so why bother criticise your actual saviors (you can deal with them later if you want or join them as a coallition or vassals). That´s dope.
 
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God damn that was tough, lerrig's chaplain spam is a pain in the ass.
i can't hold the first wave of imperials (before lerrig abandons his post)
Is there a chance that the player could get gold by killing some imperial (even a 5 gold is fine per kill)
 
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God damn that was tough, lerrig's chaplain spam is a pain in the ass.
i can't hold the first wave of imperials (before lerrig abandons his post)
Is there a chance that the player could get gold by killing some imperial (even a 5 gold is fine per kill)
Build two extra townhalls and spam all three mercenary contracts that outta give you enough gold to buy time and break through the northern front then go and assist your allies down south cuz god knows they need it (pride blade and aveene are having a field day collecting green pelts).
 
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Funny that the contracts never worked for this mission since their triggers are missing in all public versions, isn't it.
No wonder it took me three tries...I spent like 600 gold on those townhalls and didn't get a single dime back... What kind of pyramid scheme are you running here Shar? I think its main fuel its the sorrow of those playing your maps...
 
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The newest chapter at least for me felt pretty shallow and boring to play.
- The veterans of the voidwar and their allies didn't really have any unique units, except for the elite version of the more regular units, making them not very interesting to play against.
- The drastic reduction of attack waves and the general number of units from both your allies' and the enemies' side compared to the original made this few like a skirmish rather than an important and epic battle.
- The inclusion of the demons here was a good idea. I think adding a dialogue line where someone from our side frames Genethas for being allied to them due to them ignoring his forces completely would be cool.
  • Defeating Progaderas again was amusing. I think he should drop an orb of fire this time also, so Blen has a way to attack air units too.
  • Lerrig didn't appear in the final cutscene despite speaking. He was killed before it started so I guess it's a bug with the resurrection trigger.
  • Blen and Zarin were in their avatar forms during the final cutscene.
  • Genethas and Aedale having a short interaction would be interesting.
  • You could technically cheese this mission pretty hard. Get enough resources to train 12 Gryphon riders and some more to be able to replace them. They quickly demolished the towers in Genethas' base and wiped out his destructors and pegasuses too. After that attack the Fortress, move away once his army approaches to stop you, kill any workers that might be repairing the fortress, continue attacking it while also having enough Gryphon Aviaries to pump out new Gryphon Riders and you'll quickly win after that.
Overall, that area should have a lot more anti-air defences added to it.

Idk, it personally didn't click with me.
 
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I agree. This mission was always problematic. On one hand, it's great that it's a macro map now, (like it was originally, and in the new version of the First Human Book) but on the other hand, the constant fighting, that was present in the micro version of the map, gave it a sense of grandioseness, that is not present in this version unfortunately. Also the map layout is kind of boring, there is realistically only one way to attack Genethas, and the entire middle part is wasted on Progideras. Overall, it's a good mission, but in terms of quality, can't be compared to Pride of the Empire.
 
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If not for @Championfighter25's reply, I wouldn't have known that The True Story of Arkain just got three new updates.

Chapter Four of Act Four
-Yeah Blen, your faith in Selior was somehwat misplaced. Not that Cleavehand was a bad commander or anything, but he was pretty doomed to fail from the very beginning
-Poor Progaderas, he can be killed three times in a matter of hours by three different factions
-This is just a minor detail but Salana has the Dark Ranger soundset
-No one in that battle finds suspicious that the Demons ignore Genethas' allies while focusing on us?
-Zed charges all by himself against the Imperial Army but then retreats right before reaching the Imperial base
-The Ironfist are utterly useless during this mission. They reach halfway towards Genethas' base and then head back to base. The only thing they did was killing the demons that were in the western goldmine.
-Genethas has the Finger of Death ability! How is that not suspicious?!
-Lerrig doesn't appear in the final cinematic
-Genetha's justification here makes a lot more sense, even if it still is no justification for what he has done. For real, if the Emperor has been Tregakh all along, then he would probably have a point!
-Honestly this mission had so much wasted potential.
-- This doesn't even look like a civil war. Where are the massive attack waves and the numerous skirmishes happening across the map?
-- Despite the various factions participating, we don't get to choose and we simply have the usual units. After playing the orcs, this is such a letdown
-- So there are around 10 important characters in this mission, and not even half of them have dialogue during it. From what I saw only Blen, Harmos, Lerrig, Lera and Genethas have it, and Lera's only dialogue is when she introduces herself
-- Genethas' side has four heroes, and two of them are just the random heroes we get from playing Custom Games in Warcraft III

By the way, I just noticed something. Does it make sense for we to play the Imperial chapter before the Undead chapter? In the First Books, the Undead Nexuses were facing the Bloodrinker Legion at the same time the orcs were fighting against Cleavehand's defenses, while the Imperial Civil war ended after Cleavehand's defenses had already been defeated and the Demons had already started the invasion on Lor.
 
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To improve this chapter (imho):
  • Adding a fourth faction to each side as defenses on both entrances with buildings in the top. It could be Merlon's own troops for Gardon and another one for Genethas (his Lieutenant maybe?) (Green and Blue are free)
  • Adding guarding units (each side): all bases looked empty
  • It says Genethas launched his attacks. Why not starting with Gardon's Forces underattack?
  • Lines should not be crossed: Salana attacking Lerrig was weird. Same with Imperial attacking Theoden.
  • More taunts. Theoden is silent. Salana and Lera don't talk to each other. Merlon neither...
  • Where is Birram? He could replace Merlon if he has his own forces
  • Already said, but more waves against each side, not necessarily against Blen.
  • Salana's waves are pretty empty. She once attacked with only 3 archer and 2 spellbinders... Also, she doesn't revive instantly and waits for a few waves before doing so.


Pretty sure Pride of the Empire set the bar too high :p
 

Shar Dundred

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Got more time to write now.

- The veterans of the voidwar and their allies didn't really have any unique units, except for the elite version of the more regular units, making them not very interesting to play against.
Unfortunately, there isn't really a faction that can be given unique units.
Yes I could have given Genethas demon slave units but that'd give the whole thing away to
his allies and the regiments are all fighting the Orcs (and didn't fall for Genethas' ploy).
Defeating Progaderas again was amusing. I think he should drop an orb of fire this time also, so Blen has a way to attack air units too.
Since Blen already had the ability to get an orb of fire in the first chapter he appeared in, I didn't
consider it "required" though it definitely is a valid point for people who didn't complete the quest.
I should make him drop at least one since the Orcs get two.
You could technically cheese this mission pretty hard. Get enough resources to train 12 Gryphon riders and some more to be able to replace them. They quickly demolished the towers in Genethas' base and wiped out his destructors and pegasuses too. After that attack the Fortress, move away once his army approaches to stop you, kill any workers that might be repairing the fortress, continue attacking it while also having enough Gryphon Aviaries to pump out new Gryphon Riders and you'll quickly win after that.
I was just adding Sky-Fury Towers for the enemy bases but I suppose that air units are making single-unit/building
kills too easy since unfortunately the AI, while improved in Arkain, is still pretty easily cheesed.
As much as I'd like not to limit air unit access as much as I do in Arkain, I may not have a choice here once more.
Sure I could add even more anti-air but that kills the usefulness of air just the same and discourages "wasting"
resources & food on them.
I agree. This mission was always problematic. On one hand, it's great that it's a macro map now, (like it was originally, and in the new version of the First Human Book) but on the other hand, the constant fighting, that was present in the micro version of the map, gave it a sense of grandioseness, that is not present in this version unfortunately. Also the map layout is kind of boring, there is realistically only one way to attack Genethas, and the entire middle part is wasted on Progideras. Overall, it's a good mission, but in terms of quality, can't be compared to Pride of the Empire.
Probably my least favorite (final) mission that refuses to let me "fix" it properly for years now.
I could attempt a Pride of the Empire approach with you building units normally and the AI using spawns but to be
honest, Genethas & Co would probably get stomped.
I might still try it just to see. Maybe more Demons too, maybe Demon Gates at the goldmines, making taking them
even more important gameplaywise.
If not for @Championfighter25's reply, I wouldn't have known that The True Story of Arkain just got three new updates.
Click on your alerts and press "Mark Read" at the bottom. Then you should get an alert next time I post something in the ANN.
New Hive likes not to give any alerts from time to time. Believe it or not, I didn't even get a proper alert for Championfighter's message.
Hive 3.0 is just weird.
-This is just a minor detail but Salana has the Dark Ranger soundset
You mean Lera? According to the Object Editor she uses Shandris soundset - if you mean the "death" sound, that's a model thing.
-- Despite the various factions participating, we don't get to choose and we simply have the usual units. After playing the orcs, this is such a letdown
True, the problem is that the regiments aren't present - yes I could have "small portions" of them be here like in A Fresh Breeze
but storywise it would make little sense for them to be there.
Yes, there's the Ironfist, the Dwarves, the Knights of Kome and the Elves but the "full" Knights of Kome are an AI only faction (I didn't
even include all their units on this map) and the other factions still have their time to shine and/or have just been playable not too
long ago while the Grey Guard... Well, you know what'll happen.
Lines should not be crossed: Salana attacking Lerrig was weird. Same with Imperial attacking Theoden.
Oh great, that's happening again?
Man, I really don't like this chapter.
 
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Overall, this mission just doesn't feel right. This is supposed to be a grand scale, epic showdown between the Ironfist and the Veterans of the Void War. Both of them are large, influential factions, and the fact that they are fighting each other means that the are missing from the front, which severely crippled the frontline. That means they are supposed to be really powerful, I think that their battle should almost be as big as the Pride of the Empire mission's siege, yet right now, it feels like two minor factions skirmish. Also, the map is really small, and somehow still feels empty. There are no outlying bases, no alternate paths, and Progaderas aside, no neutral creeps either. I mean, the forest is supposed to be filled with corrupted animals, like in the previous Lor missions, but here, there are none. What about those huge water filled areas next to the Ironfist and the Veterans? There used to be ships sailing on them, if I recall correctly, but they have been removed, which is not bad, since they served no purpose, but now there's nothing in there. There are some people missing on Gardon's side. Where is Birram or Thanok? It doesn't feel like Gardon brought his army with him, only a small squad. Also, I like Sage Truthbarer, but he is just a random paladin. He could have unique abilities, or maybe add another hero to compensate? That random archmage is also weird. What order does he belong to? Also, Harmos doesn't have a line, when he meets the mage, which is not a problem, but it could add a little depth to the situation... The point I'm trying to make, is that the map feels lifeless and bland. Also the star of the map has some ludonarrative dissonance. We are told Genethas has attacked the Ironfist, and the battle has begun. Then we start the mission and no one is attacked by anyone for minutes. Also it is way too easy to snipe that castle, but limiting air units is a bad solution, because this is the last time we play as the Grey Guard, their tech tree should be fully unlocked, in my opinion. All in all, this mission doesn't feel like a civil war, it doesn't even feel like a big battle, more like a small fight between two minor factions. A civil war is supposed to feel chaotic, unpredictable and bloody. The best example I can come up with is Long Live the Queen, from the Second Human Book. People changing sides, attacks from all around, lots of factions and interesting dialogue. Also, where are Seabright's forces? They were replaced by the elves, but that makes it weird, that he is there, but his forces are missing. Also, there should be more banter between the opposing factions. Both in End of the Ironfist, and Last Stand of the Golden Guard, the heroes talked to each other a lot, because they are very well written, colorful personalites, that have different opinions on various topics. It's no different here. As I've mentioned before, Harmos could have dialogue with the mage, Merlon with Lerrig, Blen with the paladin, Aedale with Genethas, etc. Also, why does the Ironfist have "Honor Guards". It feels really weird, because Genethas has them as well... They make these two very different factions a bit identical. I feel like this map doesn't do justice to the wonderful and rich story, that is Legends of Arkain. This mission is very important to the story, it deserves to be an epic showdown. This mission feels especially underwhelming, because Pride of the Empire was so awesome.

Edit: I didn't notice that you have updated the campaign, when I was writing this. Judging by the changelog, it seems my arguments, expect for the air units, are still valid, so I'm not deleting this post. Thanks Shar, for the quick update! :)
 
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There isn´t much else to say. It was a nice conclusion but after pride of the empire this seems underwhelming.
-As everyone stated the lack of dialogues seems rather strange. I think some of the imperial army should change sides when the demons are helping Genethas side. That would be a little surprise and would make the chapter easier.
-I played the new version but the demons on the goldmines weren´t a threat at all, you can clean them fast with the initial army.
-Its strange, the knights of Kome seemed really weak in this chapter.
-Salana keeps trying to attack Lerrig instead of his path
-Maybe have Gardon replace his honor guards with the ironfist we know. Herdon, Tormin, Sir Ferral, Claire, or have ironbarks in the base as static units. If Gardon wants to fight Genethas he would use all his forces, even the elites ones.
-Having Lerrig doesn´t make sense. He left with all his forces the frontline not that long ago, also he didn´t stated that the orcs were attacking and he fleed. He should arrive a bit later (having a faction of the veterans then turn into lerrig´s forces pretty much like the previous mission).

So, it was a decent mission but it can be improved by a ton. Anyway Nice Work Shar!
 
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Replaying Chapter Four of Act Four
I just noticed that the Veteran Knights don't have the Charge ability. And it seems unfair that we have regular Knights while everyone else has stronger versions.
Unfortunately, there isn't really a faction that can be given unique units.
For example, both Lerrig and the Imperial Army have the Veteran of Lor, Veteran Crossbowman, Veteran Knight, Conjurer and Chaplain. Genethas has all of these, except he has the Honor Guard instead of the Veteran of Lor.

There could be some small differences, such as one having an archer unit rather than a crossbowman, one having regular soldiers rather than Veterans of Lor, etc.
Probably my least favorite (final) mission that refuses to let me "fix" it properly for years now.
I could attempt a Pride of the Empire approach with you building units normally and the AI using spawns but to be
honest, Genethas & Co would probably get stomped.
I might still try it just to see. Maybe more Demons too, maybe Demon Gates at the goldmines, making taking them
even more important gameplaywise.
Since this is a civil war relying on trust, you could make mechanics based on this.
-- Since there are demons in the map, you could use them. If the demons were to continuously attack our side wthout ever attacking those allied with Genethas, some of those soldiers could start having doubts. Some of them could desert or even a global debuff that lowered their damage and armor. To make it more difficult for us, the Demons could launch occasional attacks against either Lerrig or the Imperial Army. We had to wait quite a long time for either desertion or the global debuff to occur. And if that were to occur, the demons would start attacking us harder as counterbalance.
--Following this logic, destroying the demons' gates could help convince some soldiers that we aren't the traitors
Oh great, that's happening again?
Man, I really don't like this chapter.
Salana is like us, she hates Lerrig's guts. XD
 
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Good improvements thought it felt quite breezy even on Hard:
-Unlocking full techtree of Greyguard should add good variety to the play. Also, what about adding Hordim (Runepriest hero) or Mordin's lieutenant for Dwarves to lead? They should not be heroless.
-Dreamhunter legion can have heroes and two more demonlords to increase the difficulty. Also, they opening portals randomly in the bases should give a good element of surprise and diversion. and thus making difficulty harder. After destroying all demon bases, what about making Aedale enslave surviving demons as a reward? The mage hero could become representative of renegade part of Order of Earth since we are fighting in Lor's territory. And earth golems aiding Genethas would be good challenge. Ironfist demi-heroes were missing and what about adding Birram as guardian for Ironfist base? It is a good way to introduce him as the fighter in battle not just Gardon's advisor. Gloomleaves should all be present since the forests are all corrupted. Maybe Hesrathion or dreadlords from Souleater can make appearance as the supporters of Genethas though it wouldn't make much sense lorewise. In empty parts of map, maybe large Bearmen bases should be present as hostile factions. Maybe attacking Genethas's fortress should summon reinforcements. As for Veterans of Voidwar, what about giving them fel taint and chaos damage? That should fortify them as ultimate Demon Slaves.
-Lera surviving till the SB era seems canon. Yeay! Yet how she would play in Long Live the Queen is debatable. Genethas now makes more sense though promises of demoness won't bear a fruit. Lerrig realizing his mistake and attempting to rectify it now makes his redemption likely. Gardon is now more likely to spare him albeit begrudgingly, so he might die at Gates of Hell mission. Genethas should question Aedale with the latter giving cold remarks.
-Can't wait for the next mission: the favorite. These are mine expectations: We would play as the nearly full techtree of Splecir nexus (sans Val'kyr units likely to be added after Saint Lorraine's re-christening) with two more nexus supporting us in the battle. One would be Rohir with Meya and Mordin as heroes, and another can be chosen or maybe Ardoz since so many Demon corpses need to be collected. Our heroes would be Rahandir, Krom, Kazardius, Saphira, and maybe Edoarus. The opposite side would be Blooddrinker legion with Ornasion's council and lieutenants (maybe new demon heroes), and Demon Slaves. Slaves would likely have three or four bases assuming Ornasion will bring all remaining slaves. Perhaps most prominent of them would be Guardian other than Bales or even the latter himself. So, best of the best lucks upon you. :ogre_haosis:
 
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Overall, this mission just doesn't feel right. This is supposed to be a grand scale, epic showdown between the Ironfist and the Veterans of the Void War. Both of them are large, influential factions, and the fact that they are fighting each other means that the are missing from the front, which severely crippled the frontline. That means they are supposed to be really powerful, I think that their battle should almost be as big as the Pride of the Empire mission's siege, yet right now, it feels like two minor factions skirmish. Also, the map is really small, and somehow still feels empty. There are no outlying bases, no alternate paths, and Progaderas aside, no neutral creeps either. I mean, the forest is supposed to be filled with corrupted animals, like in the previous Lor missions, but here, there are none. What about those huge water filled areas next to the Ironfist and the Veterans? There used to be ships sailing on them, if I recall correctly, but they have been removed, which is not bad, since they served no purpose, but now there's nothing in there. There are some people missing on Gardon's side. Where is Birram or Thanok? It doesn't feel like Gardon brought his army with him, only a small squad. Also, I like Sage Truthbarer, but he is just a random paladin. He could have unique abilities, or maybe add another hero to compensate? That random archmage is also weird. What order does he belong to? Also, Harmos doesn't have a line, when he meets the mage, which is not a problem, but it could add a little depth to the situation... The point I'm trying to make, is that the map feels lifeless and bland. Also the star of the map has some ludonarrative dissonance. We are told Genethas has attacked the Ironfist, and the battle has begun. Then we start the mission and no one is attacked by anyone for minutes. Also it is way too easy to snipe that castle, but limiting air units is a bad solution, because this is the last time we play as the Grey Guard, their tech tree should be fully unlocked, in my opinion. All in all, this mission doesn't feel like a civil war, it doesn't even feel like a big battle, more like a small fight between two minor factions. A civil war is supposed to feel chaotic, unpredictable and bloody. The best example I can come up with is Long Live the Queen, from the Second Human Book. People changing sides, attacks from all around, lots of factions and interesting dialogue. Also, where are Seabright's forces? They were replaced by the elves, but that makes it weird, that he is there, but his forces are missing. Also, there should be more banter between the opposing factions. Both in End of the Ironfist, and Last Stand of the Golden Guard, the heroes talked to each other a lot, because they are very well written, colorful personalites, that have different opinions on various topics. It's no different here. As I've mentioned before, Harmos could have dialogue with the mage, Merlon with Lerrig, Blen with the paladin, Aedale with Genethas, etc. Also, why does the Ironfist have "Honor Guards". It feels really weird, because Genethas has them as well... They make these two very different factions a bit identical. I feel like this map doesn't do justice to the wonderful and rich story, that is Legends of Arkain. This mission is very important to the story, it deserves to be an epic showdown. This mission feels especially underwhelming, because Pride of the Empire was so awesome.

Edit: I didn't notice that you have updated the campaign, when I was writing this. Judging by the changelog, it seems my arguments, expect for the air units, are still valid, so I'm not deleting this post. Thanks Shar, for the quick update! :)
I think perhaps a major struggle with a campaign of this many maps is that eventually EVERY map ends up somehow being "a grand scale, epic showdown", making it really difficult to ever have a proper climactic thing happen. Honestly, there are limits to what this game offers and you can only have a 4v4, 5v5, whatever with both sides spawning units at each other for 90 minutes so many times before we all eventually realize it's the same damn thing over and over and get tired of it. This mission should absolutely not just be Pride of Empire again except with different factions. It sounds like there is a lot of good feedback for Shar to consider, specifically with how to better utilize space and also ensure attack waves go where they are expected to go while not randomly resetting as WC3 tends to have them do.

If anything, it's almost like the old Pride of the Empire and Betrayal maps have switched styles in that one was tug of war and one was straight, normal macro with some allies, which makes me wonder if switching them back could be an easy solution: Make Pride normal macro without spawns and make Betrayal way more frantic with ongoing battles due to spawns. This fits the narrative situation of each battlefront better IMO, but given how well received the new Pride of the Empire has been I can't imagine this is the right choice, or, rather, it's too late to consider it.

I haven't played this, but by the sounds of it I can agree that this map needs to be 'bigger' on the narrative impact and there are some easy low hanging fruits that can be added in to elicit some extra oompf as detailed by others. And yet, I also urge restraint to please not make all these end maps basically the same thing in response to one guy saying 'MOAR EPIC or I'm your disappointed father telling you about not meeting your potential'. I recognize the challenge of combining what used to be three different campaigns into one, so now there are three super duper end battles that all occur one after the other. How can they be very different from one another? Should they be? These are difficult questions for Shar imo with no outright 'correct' answer, though I am also glad there is a lot of helpful feedback on the topic from everyone here.
 
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please not make all these end maps basically the same thing in response to one guy saying 'MOAR EPIC or I'm your disappointed father telling you about not meeting your potential'
XD I didn't mean to sound like that! In my defense, I didn't mean to tell Shar to make EVERY map MOAR EPICC with infinite amount of units slaughtering each other. I think this map should be more like "Long Live the Queen" that even you Jay, said was your favorite mission in the Second Human Book. There were no spawns there, and yet, it felt like a civil war. Also, of course there is a limit to what Warcraft 3 can do, but in the True Story, everything increased in scale. When the conflict of the minor orc clans feels like a bigger deal than the fight between the emperor's bastard brother and the last surviving general of the Voidwar, the narrative falls flat. There will be plenty of non-epic missions in the second book era, with the orcs running from the human, the undead under the Dead Mountain, Gardon in Pyruu, and so on, but this is THE battle that crippled the reserve troops, to the point where they were unable to fight the demons, and had to retreat to Kerrel. It does not have to be like Pride of the Empire, but it should feel like a big thing, because... well it is.
 
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I dont know nothing about making custom maps and models but most of the improvements werent about making this pride of the empire with humans.

I would attack (if possible) some surprises like as someone said, defeating all the Demons would turn some static defense units against genethas (we defeated the Demons so we are not the traitors).

About the units in the bases It makes sense. The knights of Kome were defeated by the orcs and their order is in ruins, the elves have next to no military available, the imperials are the rear forces so... And lerrig's forces were supported by daric. But both genethas and gardon bases should have more static units to get that impresion of both regiments fighting each other.

Everything else has been said so i wont repeat myself. This has been a Major improvement from the FHB and Will be better soon enough.
 
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I think perhaps a major struggle with a campaign of this many maps is that eventually EVERY map ends up somehow being "a grand scale, epic showdown", making it really difficult to ever have a proper climactic thing happen. Honestly, there are limits to what this game offers and you can only have a 4v4, 5v5, whatever with both sides spawning units at each other for 90 minutes so many times before we all eventually realize it's the same damn thing over and over and get tired of it. This mission should absolutely not just be Pride of Empire again except with different factions. It sounds like there is a lot of good feedback for Shar to consider, specifically with how to better utilize space and also ensure attack waves go where they are expected to go while not randomly resetting as WC3 tends to have them do.

If anything, it's almost like the old Pride of the Empire and Betrayal maps have switched styles in that one was tug of war and one was straight, normal macro with some allies, which makes me wonder if switching them back could be an easy solution: Make Pride normal macro without spawns and make Betrayal way more frantic with ongoing battles due to spawns. This fits the narrative situation of each battlefront better IMO, but given how well received the new Pride of the Empire has been I can't imagine this is the right choice, or, rather, it's too late to consider it.

I haven't played this, but by the sounds of it I can agree that this map needs to be 'bigger' on the narrative impact and there are some easy low hanging fruits that can be added in to elicit some extra oompf as detailed by others. And yet, I also urge restraint to please not make all these end maps basically the same thing in response to one guy saying 'MOAR EPIC or I'm your disappointed father telling you about not meeting your potential'. I recognize the challenge of combining what used to be three different campaigns into one, so now there are three super duper end battles that all occur one after the other. How can they be very different from one another? Should they be? These are difficult questions for Shar imo with no outright 'correct' answer, though I am also glad there is a lot of helpful feedback on the topic from everyone here.
Well Jay, this is last Chapter of First Human Book. And even without that fact this chapter has been foreshadowing itself for several Chapters. It doesn't has to be Pride of The Empire, yes, but it still had to be something else and honestly it felt somewhat worse than the original.

The navy are gone, Imperial bystanders became Souleater legion but along with Dreamhunter they don't play any role regarding story or gameplay, even considering Shar didn't want repeat of Pride of The Empire this mission has too less skirmishes. The map was already quite empty back than but it atleast had constant skirmishes, now it's much smaller. And where's all those taunts characters ususally throw at each other?

No hard feelings to you or Shar and I do agree every maps can't be EPIC but this particular one had to be.

EDIT:To Shar, just a suggestion to make start of the Chapter EXPLOSIVE:how about starting with forest sections of the map being hotspots everywhere? My own units and Allies mixed up with Genethas' goons in the forest fighting menacingly while forest creatures strikes?

while the Grey Guard... Well, you know what'll happen
I know Blen of True Story seems to have issues but, man atleast give him fighting end like his friend Cleavehand. You even hinted he will have confrontation against Rath by nasty way, didn't you?
 
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XD I didn't mean to sound like that!
Well Jay, this is last Chapter of First Human Book. And even without that fact this chapter has been foreshadowing itself for several Chapters. It doesn't has to be Pride of The Empire, yes, but it still had to be something else and honestly it felt somewhat worse than the original.
I definitely strawmanned there too hard, I know you weren't being disparaging! At the end of the day, I offer little to no solution as I haven't even played this Act yet, but can infer a lot from this thread. Sounds like Pride ended up TOO good, so the obvious answer is to purposefully make it worse :cool:2
 

Kasrkin

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Shit I understood things would be fucked when I had to leave because of working almost every day but god damn. My playthrough of Pride was a brief thing just to make sure systems were working and I was not able to play this new chapter at all.
 
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