Negating negrep

[Avator]

I see it all the time: People giving reputation to negrepped people. The negative reputation is given for a reason: Misbehaviour and breaking the rules.

Now I know 3 comments will be fired at me:
1) "I don't like red gems, so here's some rep to negate it". I don't like to see people with red gems either, because they broke rules. Removing the gem doesn't change that, it only show you're using pathetic excuse to suck up to someone. Also, this causes trouble, because they can cause more trouble without people expecting it, because they think it's just a new guy instead of a rule-breaker.
2) After reading the first comment, you will all try to kill me with "Nobody cares about reputation! It's a stupid system and useless and nobody cares about it!". Then ofcourse you are the one to blame for making this system useless. People keep helping people with negrep, so it their fault negrep is useless. And it is your that normal reputation is useless, because you don't care. Stuff only work if people care. Money is also useless unless people attach value to it, and that is the same as reputation. If you attach value to reputation, then it is a working system.
3) After that little speech, you will be pretty fired up to try to convince me with "Then people will make reputation groups and give eachother reputation for no reason!". Then I say on my turn: "That should be punished with whatever is fitting". The next thing you will say is "But nobody cares about negrep!" But if you think about it for 30 seconds longer, you might realise that this problem solved itself, because the effect (people not caring about the negrep) is solved by the cause of this problem (start valuing the reputation system, so people will care about negrep).


So after typing this out for like 15 minutes, I can come to my conclusion: People negating negrep should be punished. First time punished with negrep and after that, you can use more severe punishments like temporary ban.
The people who don't get this 'attach value to reputation' thing should read this above mentioned 3 comments over and over again until they do get it.

 

[Devine]

That sounds good.
But who'll check everybody's reputation?

 

[Zombie]

Well, this case is pretty much considered to be standard-issue rep abuse. It's not exactly in focus, the staff is rather busy with a wide array of other cases lately.

Besides, negative reputation is pretty much visible in the User profile unless the subject of abuse recieves another 10 reputation points. Pretty much lasts as long as a basic infraction.

 

[ike_ike]

You'd be amazed at how quickly some people can find 10 others to cover up neg rep.

Reference point: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/darkhorse08/

 

[Zombie]

Darkhorse's negative reputation was cancelled by the staff along with his ban. As for the current situation, the negrep is still visible in his user profile.

 

[Avator]

You don't have to check everybody's profile. A moderator knows who he gave negrep and if that suddenly gone, he can check it out. Then both the person who got negrep as well as the person negating the negrep should be punished.


@Zombie: His point is that people could remove that out of sight within a day. Then you don't know it anymore.

 

[Zombie]

Even if they succeed, Darkhorse is a rare example. Only more known/respected members succeed in getting negrep cancelled that rapidly, and a few points lost don't count anything.

Besides, infractions tend to solve problems more effectively.

 

[Paladon]

Well, i feel obligated to post some information about Darkhorse here to end the Darkhorse topic and continue with the real topic.

Darkhorse managed to change his behaviour in his other account, Starwars55. He was helpful and nice and the staff decided to give him a chance again. The accounts were merged.
Since Darkhorse's negrep and infraction points on his original account were superior he was automatically banned again, since the positive reputation and not-existing infractions from Starwars55 did not totally negate the negative from Darkhorse.
We reversed the infractions and i cleared up his reputation list allowing him to start again at 0.
Now he's somewhere at +7.

End of story.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

The problem is, moderators throw around negative reputation like it's a top class punishment. It's called an infraction. If someone breaks a rule, they get an infraction. We can't expect the moderators to go through profile by profile and make sure no one was rewarded rep, simply because they had rep deducted. All it is is a visual punishment, something that stands out, but it does cause trouble... apparently. Just stick with infractions.

 

[Avator]

Read the 3 comments, Ray...
Over and over again until you understand that your post was already explained there.

As for darkhorse08: That was just an example. But still, the problem here is still to be solved. Reputation should have value, negrep should be an important factor and negating negrep should be punished. If negrepping as punishment isn't enough, then grab the bigger arsenal. It doesn't matter how it's done as long as it's done.

 

[Paladon]

If negrepping as punishment isn't enough, then grab the bigger arsenal.

Bigger arsenal = Infractions atm.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Avator, we can't just go around and ban people simply because they gave out reputation. That's where the argument of "Who cares" comes in, because 9 times out of 10 the moderator is going to deduct more reputation than another user is able to give. I say just give infractions so we don't have to worrie about all these meaningless debates that you know is going to end in neg rep anyway.

 

[PurplePoot]

It would be entertaining to give them -rep then change a setting on their profile such that any rep they got in the next two days was also negative.

 

[Avator]

ROFL. If you could do that, I'd give you the biggest hug I have xD

@Ray: We can't ban them for giving reputation, but we should ban them after multiple attempts to negate negrep, which is because of some weird coincidence, exactly what this thread is all about!

 

[Sergeant Ray]

I understand what you're saying, but because so little people care about reputation, a ban over such a meaningless system is only going to stir up drama.

 

[Ralle]

I think the next step in improving this site is to disable reputation. I suggest we make a poll though and tell people the arguments. I don't want to take this decision.

 

[lnfernal]

I think the next step in improving this site is to disable reputation. I suggest we make a poll though and tell people the arguments. I don't want to take this decision.

You mean.. remove it?

That would be a bad idea IMO. No matter how much people try to deny it, they like rep. Rep is something that keep people from helping other people.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Good idea
EDIT: I meant good idea on Ralle's post cause my and infernal's post was in same time 03:37 PM... I meant good idea cause Ralle will give voting about it so we all will have discussion about it soon

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Agreed. Vote, and silence this topic for good.

 

[Avator]

Read the 3 comments ^
There are no systems if you don't do anything with it.


@Ralle's idea: Disabling reputation is probably disabling one of the last parts of judgement. Right now it's probably all that's still keeping the negrepped people a bit at bay.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Again infractions.
We're also going to hold a poll to get everybody's opinion.

 

[Avator]

Then it would be nice to add to the first post of the poll a few strong arguments why reputation should and why it should not be abolished. If not, people will only vote 'remove rep', because everybody says it's useless.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Which it is. I will agree to your terms if Ralle does.

 

[doom_sheep]

i think the next step in improving this site is to disable reputation. I suggest we make a poll though and tell people the arguments. I don't want to take this decision.

owned

 

[Avator]

No spam posts...
We're here to have a serious discussion, not to open up a new place to place your junk posts in.

 

[Septimus]

-rep act as a warning, why not make negative reputation visible along with positive reputation?

 

[lnfernal]

-rep act as a warning, why not make negative reputation visible along with positive reputation?

I actually liked that idea, dunno if it's possible though.

But will that negative reputation be permanent?

 

[Avator]

That would still keep the problem with people ignoring the value of reputation, because everyone is telling everyone not to attach value to it because they are told to.

 

[lnfernal]

That would still keep the problem with people ignoring the value of reputation, because everyone is telling everyone not to attach value to it because they are told to.

You can't stop people from ignore the value of images of gems below your avatar, if that's what you mean.

You could do something like (dunno if it has been suggested before, haven't read through the thread) you need x rep to have a signature, y rep for custom user title or something. And the neg rep could be something like "Warning Points", z warning points = ban for 10 days for example. This was reputation actually .. means something. But since members always had the "power" to use signature and custom user titles no matter what, disabling it now will just create other problems.

 

[Hawkwing]

The problem is, moderators throw around negative reputation like it's a top class punishment. It's called an infraction. If someone breaks a rule, they get an infraction. We can't expect the moderators to go through profile by profile and make sure no one was rewarded rep, simply because they had rep deducted. All it is is a visual punishment, something that stands out, but it does cause trouble... apparently. Just stick with infractions.

There are a lot more infractions going around than you think. The thing is that they cannot be seen publicly.

I think the next step in improving this site is to disable reputation. I suggest we make a poll though and tell people the arguments. I don't want to take this decision.

PRAISE THE ALMIGHTY LORD! Yes!

 

[Viikuna]

Dont take this all reputation thing too seriously. Reputation only tells what people think about you, nothing more.

And you cant please everybody. I rather get some negative rep than even try to do that.

 

[Hawkwing]

Which is precisely the problem. People begin to think that people with negative reputation are worthless scum, whereas people with high reputation are gods.

 

[Devine]

Which is precisely the problem. People begin to think that people with negative reputation are worthless scum, whereas people with high reputation are gods.

That's exactly why I don't want reputation to be removed.
Without it, people will see I'm a retarded faggot-noob.
please don't take it away D=

 

[Hawkwing]

Or perhaps we could just suspend it's existence.

 

[Avator]

Well, there should indeed be restrictions attached to reputation. Ofcourse positive rep must include something everyone wants and negative rep should remove something precious. Just banishing from the chat is not something to threaten with and allowing a custom user title is something nobody would do extra effort for, unless it's a special title that has to be earned some way.

 

[FrIkY]

In my opinion, I think there shouldn't be neg rep at all, there should just be infractions and bans. And about reputation removal, I think you should leave it (but who am I to decide, or do I decide that?). I'm not going to lie and say I don't care about it at all. Whenever I get some reputation I feel like I've done something good to this community. If you don't like/want rep, simply go to Admin Contact and ask there for disabling it. We got that problem solved long time ago. But I might be wrong at some point. Oh! Or maybe, admins can disable someone's rep by their own decision, if that user is abusing the rep system and is rep whoring/asking for rep?

If you want rep, go to Soviet Russia, because there you don't have to ask for rep, rep asks for you.

 

[LordDz]

Why is it always people with lots of rep who goes nuts about this?
I'm pretty sure once someone gets neg rep he realizes that he has done something bad. At least I did when I got it for necroposting a thread ^^

 

[Avator]

@ FrIkY: That wouldn't help. In that case, people wouldn't notice the difference between a highly respected user who did it by choice and someone who was forced into it.

@LordDz: Nope. List the Member List on ascending reputation. There are plenty of people who just continue with whatever they did wrong after getting negrep. Those people usually never did anything for the community in the first place.

 

[Kuhneghetz]

My honest opinion about those rep gems...
Just kill them. Kill them all.

I don't need any shiny pretty gems to show my goodness. I rely on my REAL reputation.

 

[Aeroblyctos]

Good one, DVO. Real reputation means a lot more than gems.

 

[Linaze]

Those who are with me on removing reputation for good, say I!
I!
Lol this r gay.

 

[Avator]

@DvO: That's real easy for you to say. You're a moderator, so everybody knows you and your reputation. New people have nothing to rely on and nobody is going to check out every person's history to see if they have been misbehaving.

@Linaze: Cut the crap. This is a serious discussion. You know you're not getting it your way just by spamming a discussion thread. (Yes it is spam, because it is a meaningless post in a meaningful thread)

 

[Devine]

Rep is fun ... don't kill it =(
thou shall not kill fun.

Whenever I get some rep, I feel like whatever that post said was usefull and that I helped someone.

 

[Avator]

Exactly. It is a sign of appreciation and respect. Something like that should be given value by its users. Like I said before (but I'll make an even more clear conclusion for those who still don't get it): If there's any factor to blame for reputation being a bad system, it is you!

 

[Hakeem]

"Nobody cares about reputation! It's a stupid system and useless and nobody cares about it!". Then ofcourse you are the one to blame for making this system useless. People keep helping people with negrep, so it their fault negrep is useless. And it is your that normal reputation is useless, because you don't care. Stuff only work if people care. Money is also useless unless people attach value to it, and that is the same as reputation. If you attach value to reputation, then it is a working system.

I'm also against money, but that's beside the point.

If people can decide on whim whether or not rep matters, then how can the staff use it as a punishment? One person might care that he was -repped, and another will be totally unphased. Money has value because we give it value, but we don't give it value without use. We use money to trade and stuff. There is no such use for rep. It is basically without function. Rep initially has value because it comes with comments. The comment is valuable, but then we try to attach things to the total comments someone has received and it doesn't work very well.

I see rep as a comment system, with random numbers attached for fun. The comment system is useful, but the random number is almost useless.

 

[~Void~]

I understand what you're saying, but because so little people care about reputation, a ban over such a meaningless system is only going to stir up drama.

That's not true, I'd wager more people care about rep than don't. Even more people say they don't care when they do. I bet if I gave you -25 right now, you'd be slightly pissed, if not very.

 

[PurplePoot]

I think it's become trendy to say you don't care about rep.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

That's not true, I'd wager more people care about rep than don't. Even more people say they don't care when they do. I bet if I gave you -25 right now, you'd be slightly pissed, if not very.

I'd wonder on what grounds, but I wouldn't flip out. It's only rep.

There are a lot more infractions going around than you think. The thing is that they cannot be seen publicly.

You can in the bottom right hand corner of the post that received the infraction.

 

[Belgarath]

I think it's become trendy to say you don't care about rep.

I just realized that is so true.

Truly, I don't care about rep. Just what I think.
If rep is removed, maybe add some sort of actually good substitute, mini-awards or something.

 

[doom_sheep]

avator: u want a serious reply? okay

people who get negrep are just noobs new to hive. u want to punish them moar? to me it sounds like u just want to hate someone.