Negating negrep

[RaijinSpark]

You'd be amazed at how quickly some people can find 10 others to cover up neg rep.

Reference point: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/darkhorse08/

Arrrgg!!!

 

[Avator]

@Hakeem: We gave money function: For trading. We could've also given it the function of toilet paper, but we didn't. If we give a function to rep (like it was meant to be), it should be respect. People with much reputation did much for this community and should be respected. While people with negative reputation did stuff that was not good for this community and should not be respected. It's as easy as that. The comments just imply an extra thank you or maybe an explanation to other people of how he helped you out.

@Void: Yea, I think that's a good argument. Some people might not care, but I think most or nearly all people here would be quite unhappy when getting -25 rep.

@PurplePoot: Agreed. People just say it because others say it.

@doom sheep: How on earth could you possibly think so? Do all new Hivers get negrep because they're new? Then I must've been the exception.
Now what the real fact about that is, is that people who have been here for a while don't have a reason to suddenly break rules on purpose unless they want to emoquit. They know the rules and they know what they may or may not do. New people might not know, but they could've easily known by reading the rules. Every community has rules, so the only excuse they would have not to read it is laziness, which is no excuse.

 

[Ralle]

Again infractions.
We're also going to hold a poll to get everybody's opinion.

No. Infractions help moderators judge when a user should be banned. We need this.

owned

Stop the spam.

-rep act as a warning, why not make negative reputation visible along with positive reputation?

Negative rep IS visible.

 

[Zelda.Alex]

Originally by Ralle
Negative rep IS visible.

He meant that there be 2 rep counts. One of +ve rep & other of -ve rep.

 

[RaijinSpark]

if someone did something wrong.. is it ok for a mod to give high neg rep 2x?

 

[Avator]

Ofcourse, why not?

 

[PurplePoot]

Avator, yes, they should be respected, but respect is earned, not spinning gifs under yiur name.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

No. Infractions help moderators judge when a user should be banned. We need this.

The system should auto ban the member when they reach a set point value. It's really only judging to the point that you say yes or no to the infraction :/

 

[PurplePoot]

The problem is that it leads to a lot of accidental bans.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

The only way I could see that is if the staff didn't agree on an infraction that delivered the banning points.

 

[PurplePoot]

Two people infracting at once, people giving two relatively minor infractions at different times (months apart) which aren't meant to stack but then forgetting about them, etc.

In general, carelessness.

 

[Sergeant Ray]

Is it even possible to infract a post twice?

 

[Avator]

You get these 'spinning GIFs under your name' by earning respect. That's how it's visualised.

 

[PurplePoot]

Not sure, but many infractions are profile infractions.

--

Avator, rep gain is highly asymmetric, so no, you don't.

 

[Avator]

rep gain asymmetric? Do you mind explaining that?

 

[PurplePoot]

rep gain asymmetric? Do you mind explaining that?

Your rep gain is highly dependent on your field and status. For example, moderators get disproportionately more rep, as do artists.

 

[Avator]

If there is no good reason for giving out reputation, that should be punished as well.
Respecting an artist for a fine piece of art is good enough reason to give reputation. However, giving moderators reputation because they are moderators is not.

 

[Viikuna]

However, giving moderators reputation because they are moderators is not.

Why not?

You cant really make any rules to control the reasons why people give reputation. They just give it because they feel like giving some rep.

Luls, that was a funny when that guy called that other guy an idiot. Gotta give some rep.

Oh shit, that model looks cool. I dont have time to really test it or even look it in model editor, but I rep that model maker anyways. Also he likes the same bands as I do, so he must be a really good modeller..

Im gonna rep that guy who repped me, so maybe he reps me again..

That one guy said that I must always destroy my groups so I will rep him and totally ignore that other guy who pointed out that it is better to recycle groups. I dont really understand any of that stuff anyways, so I just rep that first guy because he has more rep than that second guy which clearly means that he must know more

Ok, I must confess that I like to receive some rep too ^^
Just let rep to be rep, dont give any fancy stuff like custom user tittles to high rep guys or anything like that.

Let users decide how important role rep plays in their life.

 

[Avator]

As a matter of fact: We should decide that.
Example #1: Giving rep for flaming. No rep allowed.
Example #2: Allowed, because it's about the model
Example #3: Asking for reputation, not allowed.
Example #4: Allowed. It's up to the user to decide what he finds helpful and it's a good reason to listen to an experienced mapper then to an inexperienced. Especially if the experienced person says otherwise.

 

[Viikuna]

There is no in between mister.
You either allow it all, or get rid of the whole rep thing for good.

All other options just fail.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Can we just pull the plug on this one? There is no reason we should go through all the trouble to fix it.

 

[Avator]

There is an in between even though you don't want that. There can be set limitations to what is allowed, and most limitations are already set by the hive's rules.

@WILL: The main problem is still to be solved: Negating negrep should be punished.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

@WILL: The main problem is still to be solved: Negating negrep should be punished.

You don't seem to get what I meant. If you remove rep you solve every problem.

 

[Viikuna]

There is an in between even though you don't want that. There can be set limitations to what is allowed, and most limitations are already set by the hive's rules.

Limitations havent worked this far. Why should they start working now?

 

[Avator]

@WILL: No, then you solve 1 problem and cause another: Nobody will know who is experienced, nobody will know who to trust if 2 people suggest differently, nobody will be able to tell who deserves respect and help and who doesn't. I think that's more then enough reason to keep reputation and solve the real problem at hand.

@Viikuna: Read the 3 comments...

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

No, then you solve 1 problem and cause another: Nobody will know who is experienced, nobody will know who to trust if 2 people suggest differently, nobody will be able to tell who deserves respect and help and who doesn't. I think that's more then enough reason to keep reputation and solve the real problem at hand.

... rep doesn't show who's experienced at all. I know plenty of idiots with lots of rep gems.

It's called post count. That's the very least thing you can trust when it comes to experience, but other than that you can just watch their spelling and get to know people a little, something that takes about 5 minutes to do.

Rep is a retarded idea and really should just be removed instead of having people waste their time on fixing it.

 

[Avator]

Maybe you know plenty of idiots... But if they got so many rep, they're experienced idiots.
We're not talking about post count here, we're talking about reputation. Post count shows activity, reputation shows experience and saying a system to visualise respect like this reputation system is 'a retarded idea' shows that you're just too stubborn or lazy to make this system actually work. If you push away a good system, it can't work for a reason: You!

 

[Viikuna]

People always brake these rules and punishing them is just some useless extra work for moderators.

Let reputation float free and it will tell exactly what it is supposed to do: Tell what other people think about you.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

But if they got so many rep, they're experienced idiots.

Congratulations, post of the day.

 

[Avator]

Ofcourse... Wonderful last statement, Viikuna. So let's remove all the Hive's rules, because they will be broken anyway! Let's demote all moderators, because with no rules, who needs them? Let's make dozens of reputation groups, so everybody has 10000 rep by the end of the week and we all just love eachother!

You're right... We would be one big happy family. The only downside is that we will be one big happy family in a godforsaken forum, where 1 person is paying for!



EDIT: Hurray! I made it to post of the day! Show all those 'idiots' how you make a good statement

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Avator seems to have no actual arguments anymore.

 

[Avator]

I've given you arguments non-stop, while you haven't given any yet. The only thing you've said is "Remove reputation, then everything is solved", which I proved terribly know with 1 of my arguments...

 

[~Void~]

I think it's become trendy to say you don't care about rep.

I said that a while ago in a thread in the staff forums. People disable their rep to boost ego.

 

[Arvedui]

There is no reason to punish people who give +rep to counterbalance a -rep.

The person knows they got it.

And if you start punishing for people giving +rep to people who have -rep just for the purpose of getting rid of the -rep, then they're just going to disguise it as actual rep.

There is no real deterrent for giving the person rep because you can give rep for whatever you want. If you want to get rid of someone's -rep but it's against the rules, you would just be able to change the comment from "no more -rep" to "that's cool" or something else that's equally generic.

I said that a while ago in a thread in the staff forums. People disable their rep to boost ego.

You noticed that too?

 

[~Void~]

Yep. I came to a conclusion that it was because of ego when Elenai disabled his enormous amount of rep, but only until I called him a faggot for doing so

 

[RaijinSpark]

Ofcourse, why not?

One Mistake = 2 high negative reputation points (as in 2 times)

i think it isn't fair

 

[Arvedui]

Yep. I came to a conclusion that it was because of ego when Elenai disabled his enormous amount of rep, but only until I called him a faggot for doing so

I noticed when people with like 50 rep were getting it disabled.

 

[Viikuna]

Maybe we could punish people for disabling their reputation..

Give them some -rep for that, dont you think?

And if you start punishing for people giving +rep to people who have -rep just for the purpose of getting rid of the -rep, then they're just going to disguise it as actual rep.

And you will try to -rep them for that and the result will be a never ending battle you cant win. It will only consume time and energy and is not worth of it at all.

And I didnt say no rules. Forums need rules. I said there should be no rules concerning the distributution of reputation.

I've given you arguments non-stop, while you haven't given any yet. The only thing you've said is "Remove reputation, then everything is solved", which I proved terribly know with 1 of my arguments...

And your argument was..? That people who dont care about rep are responsible? That rep is like a money and it dont work if people dont give it any value? ( No shit? Like we didnt knew it already )

And your answer probably is that people must attach value to rep make the reputation system working, which is pretty stupid conclusion.

You know why?

Because you cant change people and the way they think about such trivial thing as this, but you can change the system. Users are not here because of reputation, reputation is a system build for users.

Just let everyone rep and -rep whoever they want. You just need some system that prevents you from repping some guy over and over again, like you have to spread some rep around before you can rep that guy again.

It works fine in TheHelper, but since most of users here in hive are pretty immature and everything, I can only guess the consequences..

Would be a neat expirement, dont you think?

 

[Avator]

@darkhorse08: I got that, so I stick with "Ofcourse, why not?". If they did something wrong twice in a row, they should be punished twice in a row. Big or small punishment.

@Arvedui: I get your point, but you can notice yourself if it's suspicious when people rep 1 person a lot that just got negrep. Or when a negrepped person gets reputation for a post that doesn't contain anything useful. It's much harder to hide negating reputation then to find it, so negating negrep should still be punished.

@Viikuna: I think you've said enough useless comments in this thread already. You know darn well what I mean, but you're just too stubborn, so you spam more useless information here...
If I understand the conclusion of your post here, it means that you are 1 of the people here ruining the Hive on purpose.

 

[Viikuna]

I think you've said enough useless comments in this thread already. You know darn well what I mean, but you're just too stubborn, so you spam more useless information here...
If I understand the conclusion of your post here, it means that you are 1 of the people here ruining the Hive on purpose.

So now you are questioning my motives. Does that mean that you have ran out of arguments?

And why on earth do you start a thread, if you cant stand a conversation??



I think I made my point pretty clear. There should be no rules restricting the distribution of rep because
A) Moderators have loads of more important stuff to do than investigating every case where someone receives rep after getting -rep.
B) You cant punish them all, and they will always breake these rules unless you bann them for good, which would just mean that repution is more important for you than users.


You cant even define what useful means:

Or when a negrepped person gets reputation for a post that doesn't contain anything useful

It's up to the user to decide what he finds helpful

See? In your own words. You actually seem to be supporting free distributon of rep dont you?



C) Free rep is the only way, unless you want to get rid of the rep for good. ( Like WILLTHEALMIGHTY suggested. I just personaly would like to keep rep, because its kinda fun. )



You are just wrong, accept it and move on.

 

[Hakeem]

If we give a function to rep (like it was meant to be), it should be respect. [...] It's as easy as that.

I appreciate that you are trying to spread this perception, but it wont work. If everyone used rep this way, it would become this. People can rep each other more than once. In this way, rep loses accuracy as a representation of respect. Another problem is that not everybody uses rep this way. Furthermore, you can't get everyone to use rep this way. For this reason, rep will be used for purposes other than to show how much someone is respected. People will use it for whatever purposes they want. The more people are doing this, the more inaccurate rep becomes at showing how respected someone is.

I appreciate that you are trying to get everyone to use rep this way, but you're just not going to get enough people doing this for rep to become an accurate depiction of respect.

Post count shows activity, reputation shows experience

The current way rep is used, rep shows activity more than anything else.

 

[Viikuna]

If reputation really shows experience then believe Hakeem now.
He has shitloads of rep.


Anyways, if you really want rep to show how respected some fella is, you need to make some system which allows every user to rate all the other users from 1 to 100 or something. Then you just change that guys rating depending on how you feel. The final reputation number would be the average of all those ratings.

Would be awesome.

Shee-it. I had 90 rep yesterday, and then I said that DotA pwns and now I only have 15 :´(


( Well thats how reputation really works )

 

[Avator]

You're only giving more useless comments. If you'd actually read what you're quoting, you'd read that there's a difference between every post and helpful posts.

Rep should not be disabled and I've given you more then enough reasons for that. Everything you've said, I've given very good reasons for why not to do that. You haven't given a single argument that I couldn't explain on how that would be a bad thing. In other words: You still haven't said anything useful, only tried to start a flame war here.

You've given another useless post here. Please, for everybody's sake here: Think before you make another post. Experience as in Wc3 modding!


@Hakeem: I get your point, but the only reason it doesn't work is because people like Viikuna are just too brainless for sense. Those are the people that screw up and I don't like to be the one suffering the consequences.

 

[Viikuna]

You've given another useless post here. Please, for everybody's sake here: Think before you make another post. Experience as in Wc3 modding.

Oh yea, you see it now, dont you. This is the problem exactly. When I go to ask help with some vJass stuff should I believe the guy with more rep? What if he doesnt know a shit about Jass and has received his rep from terraining for example?

You say that now Hakeems experience doesnt matter, because he is not talking about wc3 modding here.

Next he goes and post in to the Jass forums and some other guy says that hes rep doesnt matter because he doesnt know anything about vJass at all.

( Sorry Hakeem, I use you as an example without knowing what you exactly know. Your rep bar doesnt exactly tell me anything about your vJass knowledge so im sorry if you are a skillfull vJasser and this hurts your feelings. )

See the problem here, mister?

 

[Avator]

Now there you have a point. That would indeed be something you can't fix.
But that's still 1 reason to remove reputation and many more reasons to keep it.

 

[doom_sheep]

rep is actually a great way of making hive members act friendly towards each other. it doesnt have and shouldnt be controlled.

negrep acts as a warning. we dont have people wandalizing here do we? no need to really change that.

 

[Viikuna]

I got lots of points there. You just need to read them. They should reveal you why controlling rep distribution is bad and wont work + how it is also pretty useless and not worth of it even if it were possible to do.

Nice to see that at least doom_sheep agrees with me. Free rep pwns. It makes ( almost ) everybody happy.

 

[Hakeem]

the only reason it doesn't work is because people like Viikuna are just too brainless for sense.

Yeah, but it's not feasible to get rid of all the people that will use rep the "wrong" way.

Sorry Hakeem, I use you as an example without knowing what you exactly know. Your rep bar doesnt exactly tell me anything about your vJass knowledge so im sorry if you are a skillfull vJasser and this hurts your feelings.

That's quite alright. I've never used vJASS once.

I agree with you on the ideal way to show someones reputation. It should be a single rating per user per user, that can be changed at any time. You would also need different categories of "rep" for it to be very useful.

 

[Avator]

We don't get rid of them, we punish them. It's done like that with everything. If you, me or anyone else was eating plastic toys, we got a warning and then punished. That way we learn and it's how it still works.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Maybe we could punish people for disabling their reputation..

Give them some -rep for that, dont you think?

... what? Why the fuck would we do that?